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Another one gets it
West Virginia
Contributors to this thread:
gobbler 19-Mar-19
Babysaph 19-Mar-19
Rutbuster 19-Mar-19
sundaynwv 19-Mar-19
Babysaph 19-Mar-19
sundaynwv 20-Mar-19
Babysaph 20-Mar-19
gobbler 21-Mar-19
JayD 21-Mar-19
Babysaph 21-Mar-19
Babysaph 21-Mar-19
JayD 21-Mar-19
gobbler 21-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 21-Mar-19
sundaynwv 22-Mar-19
Babysaph 22-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 22-Mar-19
donniehunt 22-Mar-19
JayD 22-Mar-19
JayD 22-Mar-19
hoppies56 22-Mar-19
hoppies56 22-Mar-19
JayD 22-Mar-19
JayD 22-Mar-19
hoppies56 22-Mar-19
JayD 22-Mar-19
hoppies56 22-Mar-19
donniehunt 22-Mar-19
Babysaph 22-Mar-19
Babysaph 22-Mar-19
hoppies56 22-Mar-19
hoppies56 22-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 22-Mar-19
From: gobbler
19-Mar-19
PROPOSED DEER REGULATION CHANGES ON F&W’S WEBSITE

06 MARCH 2019

After a lengthy review of Vermont’s deer hunting laws, the Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department presented a series of proposed changes designed to increase hunter satisfaction and improve management of Vermont’s deer herd to the Vermont Fish and Wildlife Board on February 27.

A formal set of recommendations will be submitted to the Board on March 20 in preparation for the public meetings in March and April.

“The department and the Fish & Wildlife Board began a comprehensive review of deer regulations in 2013 in response to public input and to the need to improve deer management in some parts of the state,” said Fish & Wildlife Commissioner Louis Porter. “We listened to comments and suggestions at our annual public deer hearings, and we assessed the effects of earlier regulation changes.”

“The proposed changes to Vermont’s deer season framework are integrally related as a package and should be considered collectively, as each season (archery, youth, early antlerless, regular November, and muzzleloader) influences the other seasons. This framework is designed to provide a quality hunting experience for as many hunters as possible while allowing for more effective deer management.”

Highlights of the proposal presented to the Board include continuing buck age management through regional antler point restrictions and an annual limit of one legal buck, extending the archery season, increasing archery hunting in high deer density areas, crossbows for all ages of hunters, and allowing first-time adult hunters to participate in youth season proposed for late October.

The draft “Deer Management Rule Change Proposal” is available on Vermont Fish & Wildlife’s website (www.vtfishandwildlife.com) and will be discussed at public deer hearings starting March 25. Comments may be submitted at the hearings and by email to: ANR.FWPublicComment@vermont.gov.

From: Babysaph
19-Mar-19
Sounds good. You can tell the states that don’t need the money though. Lol. Won’t fly here due to the money lost. As a former business owner I get that

From: Rutbuster
19-Mar-19
Babysaph you should also get that a good quality product also results in more revenue.

From: sundaynwv
19-Mar-19
If I owned a business I wouldn't be selling vcr's in 2019.

From: Babysaph
19-Mar-19
Not a good example. What if you were selling iPads? If your sales are down you have 2 choices. Decrease your cost of the iPad or increase your cost of the iPad. Which will make you the most money? We are selling deer just like other states. Not VCR's vs DVD players. I think that what you are saying is that hunters here would pay more for bigger deer. I'm not sure the would. I would but not all guys will. Someone said that we have not had an increase in license fees for years. There is your problem. Fees have to increase to keep up with inflation. What are the nearby states doing? How many hunters will travel to other stayes to save a few bucks? Worth a try.

From: sundaynwv
20-Mar-19
I'm saying additional buck tag sales are down something like 70 percent in the last 20 years.

Hunters travel to other states to kill bucks, not save them financially.

From: Babysaph
20-Mar-19
They may may travel to other states to kill bigger bucks. (I do that too). But to kill any buck you don't have to leave the state. We can do that here. Now hunters from other states come here to just kill deer.

From: gobbler
21-Mar-19
Vermont moving forward on overhaul of deer hunting rules

By: Devin Bates Updated: Mar 21, 2019 10:39 AM EDT 21 Vermont_moves_forward_on_overhaul_of_dee_0_20190321024509

Video Vermont wildlife officials voted to approve a long list of proposed changes to the state's deer hunting rules Wednesday and will begin hearing from the public.

The changes approved by the Vermont Fish and Wildlife Board include establishing an annual limit one buck.

Other measures include an extended archery season, expanded archery zones in suburban areas with high deer density, permitting crossbow use for all ages, and establishing antlerless and novice seasons.

They would be the first major changes to deer regulations in decades. Officials say they're necessary to maintain a healthier deer population.

Hunters and other Vermonters interested in weighing in on the changes can do so at a series of hearings that begins Monday.

"We're trying to be a little proactive here and anticipate that we're going to continue to lose hunters for at least a little while," said Nick Fortin, who leads the project with Vermont Fish and Wildlife. "In the future, we're going to have fewer hunters, we're also going to have shorter, milder winters which will have less impact on deer so we're going to be more dependent on hunters to manage our deer population."

One hunter at the meeting expressed concerns about allowing younger hunters to use crossbows, adding that it's also often the weapon of choice for poachers.

Tim Biebel, who chairs of the Fish and Wildlife Board, said he's eager to hear what other hunters around the state have to say about the new regulations.

"What I love most about deer hunters is they're a passionate bunch," Biebel said. "Every one of them has a different opinion on how to do it, and trying to get a general feel for how they feel about the proposal is important, and that'll come out through the hearing process."

More information about the proposed changes as well as a schedule of hearings can be found at the Department of Fish and Wildlife website.

From: JayD
21-Mar-19
Going to ask a few questions here - don't mean to upset anyone:

First - how do they know that we are going to have milder and shorter winters? I am assuming that the Vermont Fish and Wildlife are in full support of the global warming theory?

Next - they know they will have less hunters? Well - isn't establishing a one buck limit suppose to promote more mature bucks - allow for more hunter participation time - bring in new hunters and revamp the sales approach to hunting licenses? It has done that in the states that surround WV that are one buck limit states -right? Lets take a look - OH had around 390K resident hunters last year and in 2016 they had 404K hunters ----- oops that didn't work - lets move on to PA it will be better -- so 2018 there were 975K hunters and in 2016 there were 981K resident hunters - dang wrong again! Its got to get better - KY had 352K resident hunters in 2018 and in 2016 they had 357K resident hunters --- wow good gracious I am messing this up big time because the numbers should be increasing because some fella's have told me it would increase the number hunters. Lets move to NR licenses OH 2018 100K NR licenses sold and 2016 there were 103K CRAP AGAIN! PA NR hunters 101K for 2018 and 2016 is 105K drats! Ok now all kidding aside will get to KY and yes they have shown an increase in NR hunters from 2016 to 2018 by about 5K. We can talk about revenue from license sales and it pretty much falls the same way that the other states are seeing less revenue as WV is - all except for KY and they have been seeing gains in revenue. I just read a letter though from the sportsman to the KY DPMT of Fish and Wildlife about raising the fee for residents and not non-residents - they sure seem displeased with that - so it will be interesting to see how that turns out in the near future. They talked about how residents were losing land to hunt - to the outfitters and non-residents who were rushing in to overtake their hunting land.

I know in the title of this thread it is - Another one who gets it - but is there really any state that is really getting it? I mean hunter numbers are dropping and I really don't think any of us are getting it!

Sorry Gobber if any of this is offending anyone but we need a wake up call! Here in WV of all places we had a hunt that was terminated! We need to start doing something better and that is directed at each one of us.

From: Babysaph
21-Mar-19
Oh I don't think reducing the buck limit in WV will result in more hunters. After all hardly no one kills 3 bucks so going to 2 bucks won't help much. And Vermont doesn't have a great deer herd anyway.

From: Babysaph
21-Mar-19
Oh I don't think reducing the buck limit in WV will result in more hunters. After all hardly no one kills 3 bucks so going to 2 bucks won't help much. And Vermont doesn't have a great deer herd anyway.

From: JayD
21-Mar-19
Well that is why I posted what I did - I don’t think the limit really matters if it is higher or lower right now - hunter participation is just dropping right now - how to change that is the million dollar question.

From: gobbler
21-Mar-19

gobbler's embedded Photo
gobbler's embedded Photo
Since 2010 to 2017, and I think it’s even more now, the average buck limit has decreased from 3 to 2.2. I find it hard to believe all these other states that are decreasing buck limits are all wrong.

21-Mar-19
So, why don’t we just get on board, decrease tye buck limit, increase the tag cost, and gain nothing. Everybody else is doing it. I hear all the complaining about how WV dnr is to dumb to follow suit. I just can’t figure out if hunter numbers are falling, how this is “getting it”. But, I’m just a dumb country boy so, anything’s possible.

From: sundaynwv
22-Mar-19
Gain nothing beside license sales revenue that is not in a death spiral. No need to do the same thing and expect different results, especially when half of the state has too many does.

From: Babysaph
22-Mar-19
I'm all for doubling the license fees. Guys that want to hunt will still hunt.

22-Mar-19
Cory, nobody is saying does’s don’t need killed. EVERYONE, but many of the same BBM crew here, has always maintained that was a huge problem. Three years ago there weren’t any deer left according to many who are now reciting the biologists saying we need to balance the herd.

I’ve watched this movement shift around the current issues to argue their stance. But, trying to say others don’t believe the biologists is wrong. It’s just some of us don’t sway with the wind.

From: donniehunt
22-Mar-19
Not an expert but I do notice things. Recently my wife and I drove down from the Morgantown area to the Princeton/Bluefield area and back on two different occasions. Both trips were early morning going and late afternoon on the return. Traveling 79, 19 and 77. On both trips we saw a total of 9 deer. I remember 35-40 years ago seeing 100+ deer along I-79 alone was the norm. So, here lies my question in the matter at hand......where are all the doe that people want killed? Considering our trip(s) was right up the center of the state pretty much from border to border. I/we can look at charts and graphs all day long and listen to opinions all day long but my advice is get out and take a drive and see for yourself. The deer (buck&doe) numbers are down in WV. Start talking to hunters all over the state and ask them..."do you see as many deer as you did 10-15-20 years ago?" I have friends all over the state and they say the same thing...."don't see the deer I use to". Now, when you come back to prove me wrong, please do it with REAL evidence. Heck, anybody can make charts and graphs and everybody has an opinion and I'm not knocking that but please, provide REAL evidence that WV is over run with does and we need to kill more and more each year. If I didn't know better (at least I hope I know better) I'd think half of y'all were in the auto insurance business. LOL

From: JayD
22-Mar-19
You talk about license revenue but just going back and looking at numbers from 2008 up until 2018 for KY, OH, PA and WV - it just doesn’t jive with what you are saying.

Looks to me like OH has loss 31k resident hunters since 2008. They have increased NR hunters since 2008 but when you look closer they have starting losing NR hunters since 2014 by about 6K. PA has been losing resident hunters as well down by about 6K and their NR resident hunters are down by like 23k. Both are losing revenue as well.

The one difference is KY has seen a big spike in NR sales but over the past few years they have seen a drop in resident hunters as well by about 5K. They have seen an increase in revenue because the way I read it they raised cost for residents but not NR. Is that the reason for a loss of resident numbers? I have heard there is a strong call to raise NR fees there - how will that play out with NR sales if it happens? Should be interesting.

Now let’s get to WV - during that same time period it looks as if we have lost about 20k resident hunters and not for sure how to determine the loss of NR hunters with stamps and licenses all being in there - but look at the dates of the biggest loss. What happen during that time? Let’s see we reduced the deer population and we drastically reduce the harvest amount - we were killing close to 200,000 deer a year with at least half being bucks! We use to kill 100,000 bucks - it’s been slashed by almost half - did we not expected to lose hunters by doing that? Let alone with what happen to the economy and jobs during that time period. And yes the buck limit was cut during that time period as well from 5 to 3. So why is revenue and hunter numbers dropping in OH and PA if the lower buck limit is so great? Why did Resident hunters in KY drop after the price increase? And what happens in KY if pressure from residents to raise NR prices happens?

Yes somethings needs to happen to increase some revenue but do we it at the cost of possibly causing a decline in hunter numbers even more? Because when I go on sites for PA, OH and KY and hear many of them complaining of see no deer and see their numbers are dropping as well - well it doesn’t give me much faith that we should be copying their plan either!

Oh JR I remember a while back ago I think it was you who made a post about WV being number 1 in deer and car collisions - I saw the new 2019 QDMA report - WV is no longer number 1! Didn’t even make the top 5 according to them - gee wonder what that means???

From: JayD
22-Mar-19
Donniehunt - you are correct.

From: hoppies56
22-Mar-19
Come to mason co if your want to see deer while driving , I can take 20 min round trip from my house and count 25 deer on bad day this time of year. Come July and August when deer are hitting fields hard you can count 100 or more 20 min drive. and biggest part of them are doe , I spend a lot time in deer woods and know what i see , i have hunted whitetail deer for over 50 years , There are plenty of deer maybe not what there was back in the 90s but still lots of deer . I dont need or care what anyone says. More doe need to be taken compare to number of bucks killed. Time for wv to get with program and lower the buck limit.

From: hoppies56
22-Mar-19
As of OCT 2018 Insurance claims for deer collision as reported by Insurance Information Institute top 5 states WV 1IN 46 , Montana 1 in 57 , PA 1IN 63 , WIS 1 IN 72 Iowa 1in 73 , Things must have really changed if WV is not longer in top five , Sure would like to see new numbers

From: JayD
22-Mar-19

JayD's embedded Photo
JayD's embedded Photo
Ask and ye shall receive LOL

From: JayD
22-Mar-19

JayD's embedded Photo
JayD's embedded Photo

From: hoppies56
22-Mar-19
Thanks for the update JAY D ,

From: JayD
22-Mar-19
U r welcome and No problem but to be truthful when I looked again the qdma says this but chart from State Farm still claims WV is! LOL maybe we put too much stock in charts! LOL

From: hoppies56
22-Mar-19
I looked up the QDMA 2019 report there are lots of numbers to look at , very informative about many things pertaining to whitetail , good reading

From: donniehunt
22-Mar-19
it's good to hear Mason County is thriving with high numbers. wanting more doe killed there could work to your favor. just let other hunters in the state know where these over populated areas are and how to obtain permission and I'd bet you'd be rid of a bunch of doe next fall. always hunters looking for new hunting grounds. see there, we can work together to make everyone happy. just a few key strokes, some permission slips and hoppies56's over populated doe problem is solved. next?

From: Babysaph
22-Mar-19
Donnie I agree the deer population is down. Not many people are in the woods more than me. However that is what the farmers and insurance companies want.

From: Babysaph
22-Mar-19
And that isn't happening Donnie. People, want to see deer. They don't care about the health of the deer herds. They don't care about carrying capacity of the land. This is why land is posted snd herds are built up on these lands.

From: hoppies56
22-Mar-19
Donniehunt , I used mason co as a example because that is where i reside and do most of my hunting . Jackson , Wood and Roane all have good numbers of deer . Mason co has some excellent public land , McClintic WMA which has a 1 buck limit as well as outside the ears spread limit with plenty of doe. The farm i hunt is one buck limit as well as 2 joining farms, doe are what ever legal limit is, Sorry to say our leases are full . but permission is not hard to get most times from local land owners.

From: hoppies56
22-Mar-19

22-Mar-19
Deer numbers may be down in that whole area Donnie. They sure should be due to the numbers it harbored for such a longtime. No way the carrying capacity didn't suffer a huge long term hit due to the damage those numbers caused. On the flip side, deer here are crawling out from under rocks it seems. I've counted 8 dead deer between me and Princeton since last Sunday. I live 3 miles from Princeton.

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