new game commission
Contributors to this thread:New Mexico
From: Outdoorsdude
28-May-19
Outdoorsdude's Link
Well, it's official.... and it is... https://www.governor.state.nm.us/2019/05/28/gov-lujan-grisham-appoints-new-state-game-commission-members/
From: HDE
28-May-19
Good or bad...?
From: WapitiBob
28-May-19
Good gawd, she appointed Jeremy Vesbach.
You guys are in for a wild ride.
From: smarba
28-May-19
I honestly don't believe Jeremy is as bad as some make him out to be. Nobody is perfect.
At least in reading the bios many seem to be hunter-oriented, so perhaps it's a change for the better? I'm not going to hold my breath given the fact that Grisham appointed them, but still at first glance it doesn't look particularly bad...
From: WapitiBob
28-May-19
Hopefully you’re right.
From: Mmontaño
28-May-19
So is the sky still falling?? Thoughts
From: mrelite
29-May-19
I may not agree with Jeremy on some things but one thing I am 100% sure of is that he is an extreme advocate for the NM sportsman, he will be one of the best sportsman oriented commissioners we have ever had........although NR's may not be very happy.
I don't know about any other appointees but I am hopeful at what I have read so far.
From: smarba
29-May-19
Historically we've had a pretty low bar...it has to be better...doesn't it?!
From: JSW
29-May-19
Gale Cramer was a great pick. She was on the commission a number of years ago and is a bowhunter. She has been very active in hunter ed and is currently on the BOD of Scholastic 3D Archery, (S3DA). These picks appear to be better than was expected. Time will tell.
From: elkguru1
29-May-19
No matter who is on the game commission, sportsmen (and women) need to voice opinions in a positive way and work to find the middle ground. Majority of the issues are social anyway. First step is to get the game commission to move their meetings to a Saturday. Get more involvement from hunters who work for a living and can't take off on a Thursday. That's what I'm submitting to the game commissioners to get the ball rolling.
From: jamaro@home
30-May-19
It could have been worse. From the profiles of the Commissioners and knowing many of them there will be close votes but I believe many of the votes will go in favor of the public resident hunter. It has been said before but we need to stay vigilant. J
From: jdee
30-May-19
If she thinks they’re ok I’m sure they are ass kissing liberals. Hate to think what the once great hunting will be like when these no common scenes liberals get done. Right out of the box her people wanted trapping banned on public land. What’s next ? Fox guarding the hen house.....
From: trophyhill
01-Jun-19
Alrighty then. First things first. Let's get rid of outfitter welfare, UW landowner tags, unlimited landowner deer tags, go to a straight up 90-10 split on tags.......what am I missing?
From: mrelite
01-Jun-19
Trophy, I personally watched Jeremy push those very issues over and over and over! He has earned my support, I suspect he will work extremely hard for NM hunters.
From: trophyhill
02-Jun-19
I hear that. Prime time to get some things done!
From: Flyfishfreak
03-Jun-19
Just happy there is finally a commission. There are some good people on there and some I'm sure the verdict is still out on, but that last commission was awful.....Time to get to work,next meeting is in ABQ next week to meet the new board and get to moving forward.... And start the revoking of all the poachers and law breaking pukes that have been put on hold....
From: Barrera
04-Jun-19
Trophyhill, Agree 100% and also add to get rid on the unlimited private antelope as well.
From: jdee
04-Jun-19
I don’t know why you want to do away with UW LO tags I know some great places that are open to everyone that knows about them because of them. Probably some of the best elk hunting in the unit plus if you can afford one your going elk hunting. Antelope unlimited LO tags ?? that one I don’t get .
From: HDE
04-Jun-19
It's the part about leased acreage being brought in with private for the 'lope tags that will screw it all up...
From: IntruderBN
04-Jun-19
If you don’t get the unlimited private antelope tags, it means you haven’t read the rule change.
From: HDE
04-Jun-19
Pg 88 on 'Ranch-wide Agreements'. LO's can recieve authorizations for antelope valid on their deeded property and for public leased acres they have.
So, you are either adding extra tags to the mix or taking them out of the public draw.
Unlimited private OTC antelope is the same concept as OTC private land oryx...
From: ohiohunter
05-Jun-19
They did take a handful out of the public draw.
From: Barrera
05-Jun-19
I talked to gnf and they said limited ranch wide agreements have been issued so far and should have the ranch list out soon. Was told that enlisted ranches would operate like eplus uw and allow public draw to hunt the private.
From: Red Sparky
05-Jun-19
Like that works so well with eplus uw. They going to give maps to where the enlisted ranches are? Any of the contacts going to get back to hunters when you call or mail them? Seems like WY is the place to go to hunt pronghorns.
From: trophyhill
05-Jun-19
jdee, I'll tell you why. Several years ago, I attended a public meeting. A landowner in 1 of the "6" units stood up and spoke about the UW tags that the G&F issued him. He wanted the G&F to help him out with the elk that we're destroying his alfalfa crops, without having to put up a high fence.
He wasn't looking for anything above and beyond. He was a dirt farmer who could care less about the 10's of thousands of dollars other ranchers were raking in on UW landowner tags. All he wanted was a few tags to take care of his property during harvest season. Even talked about depradation tags that were useless because of the timing of those tags. The G&F gave him UW tags in Unit 9 or 10 to help offset the problem. The rancher was livid about this!
The commission dismissed his argument basically and basically told him to sit down.
Now that guys like Jeremy are on the commission, hopefully that kind of shit is gonna stop!
From: jdee
05-Jun-19
I don’t think any liberal will do any good and all these commissioners were appointed by the liberal governor and I’m sure she wouldn't appoint anyone but liberals. The commissioners big boss MLG also says there is no problems at the border....any one truly believe that ? 0 faith in any of them !! What is it so many of you on here don’t like about NM hunting ? I have always thought NM was one of the best states you could hunt in the lower 48.
From: Red Sparky
06-Jun-19
jdee- You said it yourself in your post, "I know of some great places that are open to everyone that knows about them because of them". If you don't know about them try to find them. What I don't like is being at a commission meeting and having ranchers complain they need more tags because of the damage the animals are doing. You ask them if I draw a public tag can I hunt your ranch to help reduce the herd and the answer is NO. Being a native New Mexican I love hunting here but am tired of the bs. I respect private land rights until hundreds if not thousands of acres of public land are locked off so UW landowner tags have a bigger playground. When I drew Marquez WMA the private ranches around it thought they could hunt it but the 5 public tag holders could not hunt the private ranches. What about the land swap and herding elk off the FS to private land that ruined unit 9 for public draw holders, the Jicarilla that was just opened up, Cook's Peak years ago? The list goes on and will be a 300+ page book if I don't stop now.
From: Barrera
06-Jun-19
I dont have my hope very high for any appointed officials by Grisham. Eplus is over expanded no doubt. 49% of all elk tags that go straight to private and never make it into the draw is ridiculous imo. All we can do is voice our experiences with current systems to gnf then..... Problem is lack of knowledge on eplus by the vast majority of people who hunt. Most dont understand or know how it works so were the minority and dont get heard enough.
From: jdee
06-Jun-19
If the rancher owns the land and can make money off it more power to them . Any fs , blm or state land should have an easement IMO ... I live in a unit that is surrounded by some big private ranches and a res and I can’t step foot on the big res but the hunting is great and I always feel blessed when ever me or someone in my family draws a tag !! I scout places that I can go in and out any time , if I’ve heard there are problems I don’t even want to mess with it and move on and can honestly say I very seldom ever see another hunter in the mountains. I feel like some guys won’t be happy until all hunting in N.M. is OTC and everyone can do what ever they want.... The Liberal way ...Not saying you do RS that’s just the way it sounds to me from some of the complaining I hear. If I never hunted anywhere but the Land of Enchantment again I’d be ok with it !!
From: Red Sparky
06-Jun-19
I grew up with OTC deer hunting. A deer, bear, and fall turkey cost $10.50. I understand we have to manage the animals and there were times in the fall driving down around Tularosa where all you saw were orange vest from the highway. I remember when you had to choose N or S of I-40, then they quartered the state by adding I-25. After that we got the draw. Luckily they got rid of the point system they started with or we would have 10+ years to wait for a tag rather than the luck of the draw we have now. I have no problem with how the draw works. If you draw a tag you know you only have X amount of other hunters rather than having 500 OTC hunters in the same area. You also have the same chance as anybody else applying for that hunt. I am just hoping the commission listens to hunters rather than having public input and doing what they want, ignoring what was said.
From: raceguy97
07-Jun-19
Jeremy being appointed is good. No more than four appointees can be from the same party and he's a registered D. He's definitely against the current LO system.
From: BH2017
13-Jun-19
I agree with jdee. Land owners should be able to do whatever they want on their property as long as it is not unit wide. I see a lot of "conservatives" turn socialist quick when it comes to tag allocations. Public should be for the public draw, but what I do on my land is not the govt's concern. I am not ruch, but I saw this coming and bought my own hunting land just for this reason.
From: Red Sparky
13-Jun-19
So anybody going to the commission meeting in Albq. tomorrow? I have to work in the morning so hopefully can make some of the afternoon. Everything I want to hear is in the morning however.
From: raceguy97
14-Jun-19
Agreed BH2017. LO's should be able to manage game on their own land. Ted Turner makes a fortune with tags. He could easily make the same with a trespass fee on his own property. He doesn't care, people will pay to access his land as it's primo unlike the other junk LO's who simply get a UW tag to sell on e-bay because they are in to COER.
From: Dogman
20-Jun-19
Have you guys not seen the EPLUS scoring system implemented a couple of years ago? The trash ranches are out. The quality properties are in the game. UW tags open up a ton of ground, maps will be available this year on the web. The changes made recently are good...unless you bought 90 acres and split it down into 10 acre chunks years ago. But then again, the guys that did that made out like thieves while it lasted.
From: jdee
21-Jun-19
The new e plus program is starting this year. Ranches and property in the core area we’re re-evaluated and the property had to score 7 points in order to qualify. It’s not about the size of the ranch/property, it’s about the ....meaningful benefit to elk.... big ranch or small property, nothing to do with the size of a place.
From: Dogman
21-Jun-19
The reality of the situation is that it was implemented before it was officially passed.
From: jdee
21-Jun-19
I agree . They did do away with places that were just in the core area but not providing anything for elk other than a little forage. But big ranches just outside the core area if I understand it right are getting unlimited elk vouchers. I don’t think that’s a very good thing. Give them some but not unlimited.
From: ohiohunter
22-Jun-19
X2 jdee, elk have been seen waaaaay outside of core areas. Personally I think ranches outside the core area should only be giving 1 tag per immediate family member.
From: AOC 2028
22-Jun-19
You guys are right. NMDGF should only allow us to shoot 1 Prarie dog per family member and 1 coyote per family member as well on our own property. After all, they are the state's property as well, regardless of the damage they cause. Let the government control more and more since they always work in our best interest. Let socialism reign! AOC 2028!
Or could it be that you only want the government controlling things that serve YOUR interests? If a man doesn't want elk on his property damaging his fields, Democracy would allow that person to deal with it on his own private property. The elk know when they are not welcome over time and will move on before after a few of them are shot. If you refute this, then maybe the habitat private land owners provide is more critical and less "trash" than you like to promote. By your own logic, you should not be allowed to spray your garden for bugs, or use wasp killer on your own private property. Closet Socialists each and everyone who promotes this crap y'all push. You want elk tags, I get it. I do too. But you guys hate socialism until it serves you better.
From: raceguy97
22-Jun-19
Democracy exists as the Jennings law already provides for LO's to protect their property from damage caused by wildlife, even if it means killing it. It was always the "threat" of using the Jennings law unless they were issued transferable tags and I personally witnessed a LO stand up and do so at a G&F meeting many years ago. It only takes a few bad apples.
Coyotes, prairie dogs, skunks and a few others are considered non-game by G&F so you can shoot those too. I was not aware it finally passed but I knew they had been working on it for a while. It might not be perfect but it's something.
From: trophyhill
22-Jun-19
Whoa there AOC. I think what they are saying is welfare sucks at the tax payers expense ;)
From: AOC 2028
22-Jun-19
How is it welfare? How does it cost you a dime? I pay taxes on my land.
From: AOC 2028
22-Jun-19
Also, how many of you have bought one of those tainted LO welfare tags when it suited you? If you have, you either have zero integrity towards your own beliefs, or y'all are FOS and just want a tag any way you can get it...... Capitalism in a free market. You all claim to worship at the altar of Aldo Leupold and he said it best.
From: raceguy97
22-Jun-19
AOC, I can't afford a LO tag in the units I like. Capitalism? I could have sworn that LO's are banging their fists that LO tag's are about "reimbursement" for broken fences and damaged crops. You basically stated what every public hunter knows, it's not to reimburse, it's to profit off a public resource.
Capitalism also infers a free market. Let those lucky enough to draw a tag decide how much they want to pay to access private property, instead of those with means more than I to circumvent the draw by buying a tag from a private LO that is also valid on public lands.
From: mrelite
22-Jun-19
For some reason you are pretty chapped considering most Lo's have had a pretty good deal for the last 25 years and it only continues, over 50% of all elk tags, unlimited deer, oryx, Barbary sheep and now antelope tags..........and you want the general public to feel your pain?!?! Hard to believe that you don't understand why many general public hunters dislike the system, talk about the wolves guarding the welfare hen house. You're as bad as the far left nut cases! no one can say anything that is different from what you believe and want, that sir is whats wrong with society today. Also it doesn't matter if a resident has purchased a LO tag, it doesn't mean they have to like the system! It's no different than LO's using the system until it becomes a corrupt POS system, the changes that were made to the E-plus for this year is because you the LO have been fleecing it, you either agreed to some changes or the general public would eventually do it for you. It is always a better outcome when people from all sides negotiate and come to a mutual agreement but as you know for the last 15+ years the LO's and OF'ers wouldn't have it, basically telling the general public to go F themselves.........so WTH do you expect from the general public........sympathy???
From: AOC 2028
22-Jun-19
"Conservation will ultimately boil down to rewarding private land owners who conserves the public interest."
From: mrelite
22-Jun-19
IMO, Conservation will ultimately boil down to private LO's and the general public coming together for the common good of conservation.
The question is, who gets to decide what reward the LO gets for conserving the public interest?? The days of one party deciding the reward is coming to an end, for the last 25 years it has been you all thinking the public doesn't have a say in the issue, not really a good concept for mutually invested partners.
From: raceguy97
22-Jun-19
"Conservation will ultimately boil down to rewarding private land owners who conserves the public interest."
And let them be rewarded based on how much conservation they provide on their private land. Tons of cow dung and mowed down vegetation surrounding a publicly owned and maintained water tank that is leased for pennies on the dollar does not sound like "conservation".
From: mrelite
22-Jun-19
Well said Raceguy! I wonder what the LO's interest is, public or private? my guess is the latter.
From: raceguy97
23-Jun-19
Thanks mrelite. There are still some LO's who consider themselves stewards of the land. I talked to one on another forum a while back who owns property in unit 21. He gets 10+ ES tags every year but doesn't sell them. He only applies so his one grandson can come out and hunt. That I'm cool with as I believe LO's should have the right to hunt on their own land.
His "reward", in his own words, is to sit on his porch every morning at sunrise, with a cup of coffee and watch the wildlife roaming around. He doesn't do it for profit.
From: mrelite
23-Jun-19
Being a steward of their own private land is and would still be private interest first, public interest would be second fiddle of which I am fine with, I also believe many LO's do benefit the surrounding public lands.
From: ohiohunter
23-Jun-19
AOC 2028? As in Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for president in 2028? Wow!
From: raceguy97
23-Jun-19
Agreed Elite, be a steward of your land. Make a living off of it in any way which I understand can be hard work. Dealing with wildlife comes with it as that is the choice made, just as you and I have made a choice to deal with a higher rate of crime by living in a city and higher premiums on insurance.
Heck, once when I was on my own my rent's bought property on the base of the Sandias. Deer would regularly come down and mow the flowers, plants and a small garden they spent money and time on to put in. Should they be granted a UW tag for the Sandia District to sell?
Ohio, that was a good one!
From: priley
23-Jun-19
thats what I was thinking ohio...WOW!
From: raceguy97
23-Jun-19
Just to be clear, Senator Jennings never wanted his law to be a "profit" for LO's. He is a sheep grower in Roswell, probably never seen an elk in his life but wanted the ability to shoot lions or anything else to protect livestock which I believe in. He did not feel that G&F was doing enough as lions are a regulated species and it became a pissing contest but the money flowed from others in to cover his election. Politics.
From: raceguy97
23-Jun-19
I guess I should sue G&F and LO's who leased the rights to have private cattle which came into my camp on public land for profit, speared snot over my cheap camper, broke two tail lights on it and overturned every cooler I had stored under i while I was out, ruining my hunt. But I spent a whole lot money for it. It is the way it is.
It goes both ways as I know there are unethical trespassers on private land and they are tired of it. Private LO's can do what they see fit and I respect that and I will ask permission or pay to hunt their deeded property. However leased public land is just that, it's still should be available to the public. LO's are paying for the rights to graze on public, not to interfere with public hunting rights.
From: AOC 2028
23-Jun-19
Yes, AOC was a Cortez reference. If you read what I posted you would understand why. Your desire to control others privately deeded acreage made me figure it would be your desired presidential candidate when she comes of age. A few good points made above. However, some clarification.....I am not angry with the recent changes. I manage my land for game. I am angry that others are jealous that my investment allows me to control my own hunting fate. Conservations biggest hurdle will be private land owners, but if you try to force them to accept your socialist/communist "we all get the same" mentality when they have invested their own money and time AND taxes into their land, it will never happen. Good habitat deserves a reward for keeping it that way. Look at a map, 50% or more of the land mass is private. That he must be managed as well. You all do lean very AOC on this topic.....jmo
From: ohiohunter
23-Jun-19
Deny all you want, LO’s interest in game vouchers has little to do with conservation.
From: AOC 2028
23-Jun-19
So double the public tags, take away the land owner tags, and wipe out the public herds while you have the herd population on private explode until they are forced to implement Jennings? That's your answer? Doesn't sound like conservation to me......sounds like you just want tags and aren't interested much in conservation.
From: AOC 2028
23-Jun-19
So double the public tags, take away the land owner tags, and wipe out the public herds while you have the herd population on private explode until they are forced to implement Jennings? That's your answer? Doesn't sound like conservation to me......sounds like you just want tags and aren't interested much in conservation.
From: raceguy97
23-Jun-19
Imagination exaggeration. Private LO's profiting for hunting on public land doesn't sound like conservation either.
AZ doesn't have a tag system and the LO's who do have habitat charge a premium to access it. Their heard is just fine and produce trophy bulls every year.
From: Barrera
23-Jun-19
The issue most R and NR DIY hunters have is the UW tags. Harvesting a Bull elk 60 miles away on another mountain range does little to control the issue on ranches. I believe the landowners should be able to hunt their ranches and control thier property and I support them hunting within thier own fences 100%. Ranchers greed has came from the UW welfare handouts. Anything the government gives you in order to help support you is a welfare system, that cant be argued. Crazy to see the most conservative Americans become so entitled. Ranching is a private business and should sink or swim operation. I believe Eplus had good intentions to begin but just like every welfare program it grows and gets abused by the Gimme groups. 48-50% of all elk tags in NM to Eplus is out of control for sure a cant understand the logic behind it. Comes down to the $.
Antelope are next imo with the new ranch agreements.
From: Dogman
24-Jun-19
You don’t understand the EPLUS system if you are complaining about UW tags. The property has to have meaningful benefit to elk...and they have to allow access. What is the complaint??
From: ohiohunter
24-Jun-19
It’s not always cut and dry, that I DO understand.
And just bc jack’s 15acres has a few trees and water 2mo out of the year doesn’t mean I want access to his land.
From: Barrera
24-Jun-19
I understand E plus 100%. Issue has been this program is almost 20 yrs old and the maps 90%of the time are near impossible to to make out and locate. When asked for GPS coordinates cant get them either. Most ranchers wont return calls. The unrestricted access has been a joke. The ranchers allow thier entitled tags to drive in then lock the gates behind them forcing public hunters to acces on foot. Like on my sons archery hunt we scouted a area on forest property that we had to access through Eplus. Great trail pics son was pumped. Then day before the hunt we were welcomed to a lock gate. The hike would have been 9.5 miles now one way cause this 480acre uw ranch just landlocked the public. The access is suppose to be equal unrestricted access. If a ranch is meaningful to elk then why aren't ranches all RO? And Im for landowners to get otc tags to adjust dates when elk are on their property creating the damage. Problem needs to be fixed at the source while the problem is occurring on the ranch. Issues have been enforcement to the gnf and rancher contracts.
From: AOC 2028
24-Jun-19
100% with you Barrera. I agree all ranch tags should be RO. If it's not good enough to be RO, it doesn't belong in the system.
From: jdee
24-Jun-19
Without LO tags it would still be hard as hell to draw a tag and then you couldn’t just buy a tag....
some great elk hunting land would be off limits even if you did have a tag. Not every uw ranch is 15 or 400 acres some are very big with great hunting. I know of a small 50 acre spot that last season had 30 to 60 elk on it all seasons. When the rains came and filled the 2 dirt tanks on the property 5 bulls stayed there until winter putting on a show you wouldn’t believe for weeks and 2 of the bulls were 350 class . No one ever hunted it . I was there the other evening and there were cows and calves running all over the property. I didn’t have a tag last year but had access to the property next to this little elk paradise and would sit on the side of the hill and just watch the show thinking what some guys with a tag would give to hunt there. With LO tags it is wide open to any licensed elk hunter you just have to find it.. No LO tags and it’s closed off to hunting. Every year I hear guys say they never even heard a bugle....I saw fighting, breeding, wallowing, heard more elk sounds then most people will ever hear all because of open ground in the E plus system.
From: mrelite
24-Jun-19
The biggest issue with these UW ranches has been having a mapping system that the public can access, some ranches only have part of their ranch in the program and finding which part has been super difficult at best, I am hoping the new mapping system is user friendly and adequate.
From: Barrera
24-Jun-19
Jdee, Agree there are areas benefits that improves public draw opportunity. Just feel eplus is in need of adjustments. Hopefully the new scoring will help out. Was just a bad eplus experience on my sons hunt.
From: Red Sparky
24-Jun-19
http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/hunting/maps/elk-private-lands/elk-mgmt-zone-maps
Here is the link to the mapping system I found. I wish they will have a link on the landowner list to directly show where the ranch is. From what I can tell so far their link is not user friendly yet but I haven't played with it much. I don't plan on hunting them but if you are on public and a wounded animal runs onto a UW ranch you shouldn't need to get permission to retrieve it.
As far as the meeting in Albq. went from what I saw of it the wolf lovers were there wanting NM to rejoin the recovery plan. Trapping is going to a big one as well so I guess we all need to get involved and give public input, it seems like they might listen to public input more than the last commission did.
From: trophyhill
24-Jun-19
All the king's horses and all the king's men, can't put NM broken system back together again. To get to where we are now, I have no doubt whatsoever, pay to play got us here. Get rid of the Jennings law, get rid of UW tags, get rid of A+ and E+, and build high fences when ranchers complain about crop damage. If you're a landowner complaining about crop damage, yet over grazing on our public lands, keep your cattle on your own land, and I doubt you'll have an over grazing issue because of elk and deer.
If you want to see what I'm talking about, I'll show you cactus fields and patches that have been decimated on public lands from over grazing......
From: Dogman
24-Jun-19
Red, you don’t need permission to go onto a UW property. It is part of the agreement. Maps...they are going to be killer this year. I received mine a few months ago to review and it was spot on. They should have them all up on the website by Aug. Kind of like MT block management maps. As far as this RO talk goes, if a property is RO their season is any 5 days for damn near 3 months. If it is UW they have to abide by the same seasons as the public, and they have to provide access. If you run into a landowner not playing by the rules document it, and report it. I assure you that the threat of being kicked out of the program is a significant incentive to play by the rules. There are bad apples in every bunch, landowners and hunters alike. Don’t take one experience (especially pre scoring system) and lump all EPLUS properties into the same boat. Wait til you see the lists this year (if they ever come out!!) they are going to trim the fat significantly.
From: jdee
24-Jun-19
Damn trophyhill in one post you thank the lord for your luck with the elk draws and are so happy for your blessings but it seems you only want the lord to bless you....a landowner is blessed with a LO tag and a way to make some extra money and help elk and you want his blessings taken away from him but Celebrate yours . You complain about the NM system after you draw one of the best tags in the state and some other good tag...Some guys would ditch if they were hung with a new rope..
From: Red Sparky
25-Jun-19
Dogman.....I know you don't need permission to go on a UW ranch, there problem before was making sure it was a UW ranch so you didn't get charged with trespassing and lose 3 years of hunting. If I was hunting a public boundary close to private land in July I would contact the LO and tell him I was hunting public but would like contact information in the event a wounded animal came onto his property. Common courtesy can go a long ways before hand rather than after the fact. The difference was when I hunted Marquez and the LO hunters thought they could hunt the WMA but made sure public draw hunters stayed on the WMA. We made sure LO hunters stayed off the WMA. That and one time I was hunting near a RO property, you were not recovering your game it it was shot on public and died on private.
From: trophyhill
25-Jun-19
All public lands I might add Jdee ;) And yes I am very thankful for the tags I've drawn. I hope my next expense is a bigger freezer. With CO and NM? And should draw a great tag in CO next year. On cloud 9. BTW, I've seen plenty of over grazing in CO too. I'm not saying landowners shouldn't make money. I'm sure they've paid for that right ;) perhaps I'd feel sympathetic to your plight if this state, big land, big game, politics and corruption weren't so rampant. I saw how it all works in Santa Fe a few years ago. Landowners, cattlemen, sheep growers, outfitters etc are a very powerful lobby with lots of money and influence.
From: Outdoorsdude
25-Jun-19
' Landowners, cattlemen, sheep growers, outfitters etc'..... create a pile of gross receipts tax money, and that holds a huge influence in decision making with the bureaucrats.
Let me type those magic words again: Gross Receipts TAX.
From: jdee
25-Jun-19
I can sure think of worse places to hunt elk than NM ! I don’t understand why some of you think NMDGF is doing such a terrible job with elk management and tags. IMO NM is at the top of the hunting states. There are some things I don’t like about NM but I think they do a damn good job when it comes to hunting and that’s from a guy who didn’t draw a single tag this year but I sure have had some good ones through the years.
From: ohiohunter
25-Jun-19
IDK about terrible, but it could be better. Now with the G&F being independent all the changes will & have leaned towards the public's wallet and tag allotment. I wonder how deep into our pockets they will dive? Their gain will come at the expense of us or our wildlife.
From: AOC 2028
26-Jun-19
Jdee! Jdee! Jdee!!! Nice to see someone else happy with the job NMDGF is doing. We are way better than the bonus point....point creep.....and Guide Required states.....NRs hate us for allocation numbers but don't do any better in their home state's for us (real game hunting, not food plot whitetail). When it all comes down to it, it is each of us (including me) looking out for our own interests. Which means none of us are true conservationists.
From: WapitiBob
26-Jun-19
NM isn't close to Wyoming opportunity; 3 Elk with OTC Gen for residents, 6 Deer, and 6 Pronghorn as well as 16%, 20%, and 20% nr quotas.
From: HDE
26-Jun-19
That's 'cause WY has more game and NM has more liberal democrats.
From: priley
27-Jun-19
x 2 HDE
From: trophyhill
27-Jun-19
And people who pay those liberal Democrats off......
From: trophyhill
27-Jun-19
AOC..... In case you haven't noticed, we are a guide required state. Have you not heard about the outfitter pool? I also heard that nearly 50% of all elk tags are doled out to landowners before the draw is even considered. No wonder some of my friends can't draw an elk tag.
Not to mention those poor nr bastards at 6% odds because of outfitter welfare. Damn.......l was in a good mood too ;)
From: Barrera
27-Jun-19
HDE and Trophyhill are 100% spot on. I love NM hunting and our draw process, but we got our issues in outfitter management for sure.
From: Outdoorsdude
27-Jun-19
HDE 's comment may be spot on but tropy's has too much covetness and not enough math for my taste.
From: jdee
27-Jun-19
Some people won’t be happy until N.M. elk hunting is OTC . I don’t care how hard it is to draw because when you do it’s all worth the wait.
From: HDE
27-Jun-19
UT and NM have similar elk numbers. OTC "Any Bull Units" in UT are either crowded or scarce on elk numbers. Lots and lots of good hunting opportinity for OTC elk in LE bull units, but you are limited to spike or cow.
Can't have everything with moderate elk numbers.
From: priley
27-Jun-19
Half of the elk tags in NM pretty much are otc and are mostly nr tags.
Jmho
From: raceguy97
27-Jun-19
"Half of the elk tags in NM pretty much are otc and are mostly nr tags. Jmho "
Yep. Highest bidder wins and I can't compete with the wealthy who will drop $3k to hunt here on a UW tag. We all pay taxes, another excuse. Just get rid of UW and let the market decide how much a property is worth hunting.
From: trophyhill
28-Jun-19
Outdoorsdude, so clean the math up for me and tell us what the real numbers are ;)
From: Outdoorsdude
28-Jun-19
If a large outfitter (lets pick on USO) wanted to put 2k worth of apps in a particular unit -- they would absolutely dominate that draw. They currently won't do that because of the percentage ruling , you keep calling it 'welfare' when in reality [and this is for the larger outfitters] it is actually a Cap. Something to consider ;-)
From: HDE
28-Jun-19
2k worth of applications is somewhere around 200 applications.
They would not necessarily dominate the draw for that unit.
From: jdee
28-Jun-19
Some of the outfitters here where I live complain about not being able to get their non res clients drawn because NMDGF doesn’t issue enough tags. Sounds as if the complaining residents that want everyone to be able to draw and the outfitters that are complaining about wanting more clients to be able to draw, if they all get their way, someday we will all be killing 250” to a monster 270” bull because there won’t be any more big bulls or very few of them......quantity or quality? Reminds me of something the liberal politicians we have in N.M. would do. I would rather have to wait 10 years for a archery bull tag than have a tag but no big bulls !
From: HDE
28-Jun-19
"I would rather have to wait 10 years for a archery bull tag than have a tag but no big bulls !"
Not me.
From: raceguy97
28-Jun-19
Me neither HDE. Back in the days I would throw in an antlerless unit as my 3rd. I have no idea why G&F dropped those for archery, they always filled and with the lowest harvest rate, it's not likely archery is going to put a dent on the herd.
From: raceguy97
28-Jun-19
Jdee, please ask the outfitters if they would like to open up a can of worms and allow NR outfitters to participate in the pool. That was the deal that leaders of NM Cattle Growers and Wool Growers proposed and it was accepted. They were more than happy to throw NR outfitters under the bus.
From: Oso
28-Jun-19
Mr. Raceguy97. If you would review the outfitter list on the Game and Fish web page you would discover that there are currently approximately 23 non-resident outfitters participating in the 10% draw pool. There are no restrictions on the Outfitter pool that make it resident only.
From: raceguy97
29-Jun-19
Osa, I'm very aware in how things work here. I don't know where you are going with this. That was the deal proposed and accepted. Local LO's and guides threw everyone else under the bus and I don't blame them, it's their land. The original proposal was 90-10, and there was strong support for it. There were restrictions though.
Just so you know, there was a movement in the legislature to get rid of all NR tags and and make it 100% residents, proposed in a committee hearing . That was opposed by both sides.
Mr Orso, I'ts fun to have a debate, that's what make this an a intelligent conversation correct? No biggie.
From: raceguy97
29-Jun-19
Oh, there are restrictions on a couple things thrown in at the last minute, some by guides. Here's one thingy that was thrown in. NR outfitters doing business here must pay 100% NM tax regardless of their residency, period. Yep that was at the request of local outfitters. and we had no problem with it. Good for them. If 16d is fulfilled with resident applications, those SHALL go to residents. It's the law. I believe what you are seeing are unpopular units. Every guide I know wants to guide clients in the Gila. Who wouldn't? But unit 48? Not too popular with out of state residential's wanting to kill a biggun. It is how it is.
Edited: they have to demonstrate paying property tax in NM in order to even qualify for the outfitter pool. Again, that was their request in negotiations.
From: Red Sparky
30-Jun-19
10 years for an archery bull tag? I must have missed something because every archery elk tag I have drawn has been ES. I would hate living in a state that had a point system and I could only hunt elk once every 10 years.
From: Outdoorsdude
30-Jun-19
HDE , the way I wrote is not the way you read. Perhaps I failed when I used an abbreviation, that could be taken more that one way. your reply "2k worth of applications is somewhere around 200 applications" The 2k was not referring to a dollar amount (there is no $ there), rather I truly meant a total of 2,000 applications into a single unit. And it would then dominate that draw --unless they were capped by law.
Do you think the new commission will alter the allotment?
From: HDE
30-Jun-19
Worth normally refers to value, not count or quantity...
From: Red Sparky
03-Jul-19
I just looked at the draw odds for 2018. Unit 16D, 2nd archery, 1st choice had 480 Residents and 410 Outfitted. Just those two pools is 890 applicants for 60 tags. Seems like without the caps it would be close to a 56/44 split instead of 84/10. Unit 34 same hunt has 1262 Residents to 329 Outfitted for 200 tags. I like the way the draw odds are set up now, you just have to compete with others in your draw pool. It is totally random in which number you are assigned in the draw, always hope for a low number.
The problem comes in when you are one of the 1262 competing for one of the 168 resident tags. You only have a 13% chance of pulling one of those tags. If you look at the whole picture of all 3 draw applicant choices you only have a 6% chance of pulling one of those tags.
The problem I have with the draw system is there are units that all first choice applicants should have a tag but the hunt is filled with 2nd and 3rd choice applicants so some of the first choice applicants don't get drawn. Say what you want but it is only going to get worse as demand for tags increases.
From: ohiohunter
03-Jul-19
If that is a "problem", then you obviously don't understand the draw process. Yes, you are correct, as demand increases on a finite resource the availability decreases.
From: Red Sparky
03-Jul-19
I guess I don't understand the draw system since I have drawn 10 elk tags in the last 12 years.
From: Dogman
03-Jul-19
If you meant what you said:
“The problem I have with the draw system is there are units that all first choice applicants should have a tag but the hunt is filled with 2nd and 3rd choice applicants so some of the first choice applicants don't get drawn.”
...Then you don’t understand how the draw works.
From: HDE
04-Jul-19
I understand how the draw works and have the same problem with it.
Nothing wrong with a random process. Big problem when it's not done by species, weapon type, or unit...
From: ohiohunter
04-Jul-19
It is done by species
From: trophyhill
04-Jul-19
That's "luck of the draw" sparky ;) I do like our draw process, but feel that more opportunities should go to the public over private entities who are sucking the states tit......
From: Red Sparky
04-Jul-19
I agree with you trophy hill, more public tags would be a good thing. Then we can hear all the complaining about hunting pressure like Colorado. I think there should just be depredation hunts instead of LO tags. Would give much more hunting opportunity to the public.
From: Barrera
05-Jul-19
Dont think there needs to be more tags overall just more in the draw and less in the lo system for sure. Dont think it will crowd our public areas any more. Most of the uw tags are already hunting public areas. So now you got outfitters all over the public areas at least in units I've hunted. Seems like everyone is becoming a outfitter in nm these days.
From: Red Sparky
05-Jul-19
Barrera----I have run into the same situation. That and hunting the first archery hunt with 10 guys running Razors and SxSides all day scouting for the second hunt. Or having the second hunt and having ML's scouting during the last part of Sept. for their hunt in October. Being a mile from the road waiting for light and watching trucks stop at the same spot to bugle down into canyons every 10 minutes or so. Oh the joys of public land hunting.
From: trophyhill
06-Jul-19
Not sure I understand Barrera. More tags in the public draw but not more issued to said public?
From: HDE
07-Jul-19
Think he is saying no more UW landowner tags for sale but put those into the draw and let the hunter themselves (or outfitter) broker a deal for trespass fee. License count remains the same, but you now have a small increase in chance to draw
From: Barrera
08-Jul-19
Yes more in the public draw and less in the UW LO system.. I'm all for the DIY opportunities and let the market work for access fees.
From: Dogman
08-Jul-19
Love it the way it is. Wouldn’t change a thing. Not even joking.
From: ohiohunter
08-Jul-19
The catch is the UW LO access. Though I've not encountered it, I'm sure the UW tags open up some land locked acreage but as we have already addressed.. said properties are not easy to find, and far too often the LO is not compliant. I think stiff penalties should be incurred from such actions. So as it stands I'm content w/ the current system mostly b/c if there are any changes I do not believe they will be in the public's favor.
From: Dogman
08-Jul-19
Maps are online this year ( but not out yet). If you see an infraction break out your phone and document it! The landowners get a great deal, they need to hold up their end of the bargain.
From: raceguy97
12-Jul-19
Agreed Dogman. G&F just needs to enforce, period. I've been on this board for a while and have seen numerous complaints which claimed were reported yet nothing done, locked gates to UW, harassment etc.
G&F needs to be accountable and I respect the job they do. if there is a complaint, investigate it neutrally and enforce it if legitimate. That's all.
From: Dogman
12-Jul-19
The crucial part of reporting is documenting. Who doesn’t have a phone on them?! Take a video, snap pictures. Make it undeniable. If it is just reporting a violation without evidence it is worthless and you are wasting your time.
