Harvest an old gray mare.
Wisconsin
It is the right thing to do no matter what your management philosophy is.
These old gray mares do not drop fawns, you know: your future buck.
They will never be more than they are today.
In winter time they out compete the other deer which will be future bucks or at least contribute to the herd other wise.
This helps with over populated areas and even helps the herd in areas that are struggling with population.
So even if you are 'buck only' this is the the thing to do. Why let them walk?
What is the argument against?
How does one know the old gray mares are not pregnant?
How does one even identify this infamous "old grey mare".
With experience you can tell. For the novice, they are huge, like dress @ 170 to 200. They never have a fawn with them. Sometimes they are present as an extended family member i.e gramma with her daughter who has her fawns in tow, or even a smaller doe without fawns. They have the extended white patches , eye/nose rings etc that come with age and you typically find on a trophy buck. Very long skinny neck and gynormous ears. sway back and giant ass. Way long snout. Excess facial whiskers. Very cagey as they approach last and slowly, almost always at the end of the roving harem.
To me they are obvious at first glimpse. I am eating this years winner as we chat.
If you can't tell an old broad from the rest, not much else I can do to help you. But if you can, ... choot 'em !!!
I’ll take a chance she is bred this year and give her a pass. Sounds like she would be tough eating too.
That old grey mare is going to tastes terrible and nobody is going to want to eat her so if you kill her, it’s a waste. She’s survived long enough to let nature take its course. I’d pass.
See 170 - 200 lb does with fawns every year. Dry does are rare usually alone due to losing fawn to cars, coyotes, etc. We never shoot the big old does. We try to harvest the 1.5 to 2.5 yr olds.
Claim Old does are not capable of bearing fawns. Shooting these geriatric females prevents orphaning young fawns and is beneficial to deer herds.
Origin It’s impossible to pin down a specific source for this claim, but it’s fair to say it’s rooted in folklore and myth rather than verifiable scientific data. It’s possible that it stems from hunters ribbing other hunters about the value of killing an old doe versus shooting a younger deer.
Facts To be clear, many does do reach old age, but they don’t become “dry,” at least not very often. Only in rare cases will a female deer contract some kind of disease or suffer from some type of congenital or genetic disorder that renders that individual deer unable to bear young.
Multiple studies conducted by wildlife biologists have proven that almost all does bear fawns every year until death. Age is not a factor—does exceeding 20 years old have been documented with healthy fawns.
The empirical data clearly disproves the old, dry doe claim. Hunters that see a female deer without a fawn in tow are mistaken if they assume they’re looking at a barren doe. By the time hunting season rolls around, many young of the year have already died. Between predators, vehicles, disease and extreme weather events such as drought or floods, many mature, healthy does lose young fawns.
It’s also a mistake to believe shooting a big doe without a fawn is more beneficial to herd health than shooting one with fawns. Wildlife managers set season dates in order to ensure that by opening day, fawns are capable of surviving on their own.
I have yet to have one of my deer not taste yummy. It is about their entire life circumstance as well as manner of death. The idea of letting them walk ( go donate them if you have to) is nuts. Their detriment to the herd is THE PROBLEM.
I doubt many does get to that ripe old age where they can be called an old gray mare.
Oleduckhunter
You need to look no farther than any browse line.
Assuming you have ever watched deer stand up on their hind legs to get at the higher up you should be able to understand that the younger deer do not stand a chance. I have posted photos of this here.
“Claim Old does are not capable of bearing fawns. Shooting these geriatric females prevents orphaning young fawns and is beneficial to deer herds. “
No clue what you are trying to say there. ^
“ Origin It’s impossible to pin down a specific source for this claim, but it’s fair to say it’s rooted in folklore and myth rather than verifiable scientific data. It’s possible that it stems from hunters ribbing other hunters about the value of killing an old doe versus shooting a younger deer. “
Again, no clue what you mean by that ^
“Facts To be clear, many does do reach old age, but they don’t become “dry,” at least not very often. Only in rare cases will a female deer contract some kind of disease or suffer from some type of congenital or genetic disorder that renders that individual deer unable to bear young. Multiple studies conducted by wildlife biologists have proven that almost all does bear fawns every year until death. Age is not a factor—does exceeding 20 years old have been documented with healthy fawns. “
If you could provide references I'd have a gander, but sorry.
Fact is these obvious old gray mares are bare. No milk. Slim bag as a fawn. Even if they were to reproduce at some year in the future the damage they do the existing young outweighs it.
“The empirical data clearly disproves the old, dry doe claim. Hunters that see a female deer without a fawn in tow are mistaken if they assume they’re looking at a barren doe. By the time hunting season rolls around, many young of the year have already died. Between predators, vehicles, disease and extreme weather events such as drought or floods, many mature, healthy does lose young fawns. “
Again that is your say so as if it represents some thing larger. I have scores of years boots on the ground. Besides, if a doe were to abandon her fawn(s) – just as a selfish/careless maneuver, plenty reason to take her out. Likewise if her fawns just do not make it for whatever other reasons. Not the doe we want in the herd. “It’s also a mistake to believe shooting a big doe without a fawn is more beneficial to herd health than shooting one with fawns. Wildlife managers set season dates in order to ensure that by opening day, fawns are capable of surviving on their own. “ Tell that to all the dead fawns I find.
Shooting deer you don’t want or need just to shoot them and donate the meat “is the problem”. That old grey mare is not.
Only in feeding/baiting deer situations do you see dominance show itself over a pile. Normal meandering and browsing its rarely seen.
What Musky said, at least in my neighboorhood. My managament plan does not include shooting does that have fawns, so if you could be sure she’s alone she would be fair game. Fawns need their mother to best have a chance for winter survival, they have her pecking order in yards and feeding areas as long as she is with them. Otherwise, they are harassed and not allowed to eat, they have no pecking order without mom. They also stand no chance with predators, they are coyote dumb. Part of this reasoning is to provide the best chance for buck fawn survival, part of it is just my belief in having respect and empathy for the animal we hunt. (Obviously, this is just a small part of my management plan)
" From: Muskybuck
I doubt many does get to that ripe old age where they can be called an old gray mare. '
Around here a lot of old skoolers are in the camp of never shoot a doe, but go ahead and shoot anything with an antler that you can. Then they complain that with all the deer around why are there no giant bucks !! Some old broads around here are over 10 years old.
First off I never shoot to donate, but I do help folks in need. I suggested that as an alternative to the proffer that they are not yummy enough for that poster.
Old gray mares are the population management problem regards good age sex structure. go read stuff.
You bring up dominance first and only so far, as well as baiting. The browse line in the woods has nothing to do with either. Please try to keep up.
" From: Drop Tine
Shooting deer you don’t want or need just to shoot them and donate the meat “is the problem”. That old grey mare is not.
Only in feeding/baiting deer situations do you see dominance show itself over a pile. Normal meandering and browsing its rarely seen. "
I have no idea what sort of logic you tried to utilize in that last sentence.
Lots of research out there that shows the old dry doe is a myth. Not hard to find some studies using the google. Mn dnr has done them.
Their findings.
As for wild deer, the Minnesota DNR, studying a free-ranging herd of whitetails in the northern part of the state (home to wolves, bears, and long, nasty winters), recorded pregnancy rates of 97 percent for does aged 2 to 7 years old, and 99 percent for does 8 to 15 years old. And most does gave birth to twins, regardless of age.
" From: Oleduckhunter 29-Dec-19
Lots of research out there that shows the old dry doe is a myth. Not hard to find some studies using the google. Mn dnr has done them.
There findings. "
Not to try to give you a personal ding or anything ... but telling some one to go search until they see it your way is asinine and insulting. Down right disrespectful and a total troll maneuver. KMA.
Put it out here or STFU and GTFO..
And no clue what you mean by 'There findings. ' but I have an opinion about peeps who have no grasp of what is supposedly their native tongue, they usually have an equally deficient thought process. So please present better.
You are right. The research is all wrong. I believe you.
Could someone post a picture of a 200lb dressed old gray mare on a scale? I would love to see it
You would be the only one that knows since you FAIL to back up your claims. But thanks for posting.
" From: Oleduckhunter 29-Dec-19
You are right. The research is all wrong. I believe you."
Like tree geek said, I’d like to see one too. I own land in multiple states, have never seen one. A huge doe so old she doesn’t go into heat anymore that is. They simply don’t grow that old in my neighborhoods. If nothing else their own tooth loss would get them before that combined with winter.
More material for outdoors standup guy :: let me tell ya da one about the old dry grey doe.
Laugh all way to the stump with that one.
Doorknob can you share your research from multiple sources supporting your stance please.
From: Trax 29-Dec-19
Like tree geek said, I’d like to see one too. I own land in multiple states, have never seen one. A huge doe so old she doesn’t go into heat anymore that is. They simply don’t grow that old in my neighborhoods. If nothing else their own tooth loss would get them before that combined with winter.
"go into heat anymore" is not the issue. producing and rearing is.
From: Screwball 29-Dec-19
Doorknob can you share your research from multiple sources supporting your stance please. ""
it is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer. What part of it do you not get?
opinion based facts are a waste of bandwidth and our time Nob.
" From: Drop Tine 29-Dec-19
opinion based facts are a waste of bandwidth and our time Nob.
" Your time have always been a wast, can not argue against that.
Go back up there ^ and read it slowly, gawd knows I typed it a slowly as I could without falling asleep. Can you all admit that old gray mares "if they exist" should be eaten forthright? Then the question before us is only how to define and determine. Any objections to that?
Please explain what a wast is??
Yes I object, I would like to see your data and sources as to this "fact" you are professing based on your opinion to this point. Again, Please share I would like to read this data.
Hmm.... no pictures posted of the 200lb dressed doe yet?
I didn't read all the responses so all of this may have been touched on. First of all if you want to shoot a deer and have a tag and do it legally, do it. Don't make excuses like dry doe, cull buck. Second I have seen quite a few very large does, even shot some huge ones. For years we weighed them on a certified scale as we were in a "trophy doe" contest. The biggest one ever was 161 dressed and that was one huge doe. People talk about 200lb does but I very much doubt they are actually 200. For the people claiming older deer taste terrible. I have never had corn/crop fed venison that was handled, processed, and prepared properly be anything but excellent. The oldest buck that I have ever shot that I knew was at least 6.5 tasted as good as the 1.5 year old doe I shot the same season.
RutnStrut I completely agree with the taste. We did a blind taste test with friends who would only shoot 1.5 year old does cuz they tasted better. We did it with a 4.5 year old rutting buck and 1.5 year old doe and they couldnt tell the difference. I think its mental for a lot of people. I also believe the old dry doe thing is a myth. Seems like people use it as a excuse to shoot does when theres no reason not to take does in areas where the deer herds healthy.
Bar stool game managment.
Shoot what works best for your personal agenda.
"In winter time they out compete the other deer"
Exactly as nature intended it to be. Survival of the fittest.
Not sure I buy they dry up. Going with bears got the fawn(s), fawn(s) were taken by hunters/road kill etc. or pushed off and never met back up with the mom.
Back when the wolves were heavy in our area we saw does without fawns constantly. Nature at work there.
Not many wolves nor deer eatin bears in this part of the woods...
But 'nuff said. Hear or be deaf. The local situation for you will be the historical record
Door knob. They dress 170-200#. Sorry but lately I am calling out bsers on bowsite. I have never seen a dressed doe above 162# and trust me I have seen it all. Hey it is fun telling stories but in my book you have to keep it real.
Still no pictures of “the old gray mare” on a scale? Bummer
I am not sure if you are addressing me or DK, I was being sarcastic with my statement of seeing them all the time.
The biggest doe I ever shot was a 127lbs, killed in Bayfield County in the Bibon Swamp and weighed in at the Black Bear in Drummond Wis.... Of course those were years pre wolf, and common sense deer mgt in Bayfield County...today its a mess........ CDAC is another joke.................
that doe was aged by the DNR guy there at 7.5 years old,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, takes a lot of deer to be the weights some of you guys say, are real,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just sayin
I usually take out the fawns, and let the older girls go
My thought is the noisey one gets the arrow. Tends to be the older ones. And they taste great!!
I apologize for not reading the whole thread in its entirety but I believe that certain kinds of misinformation can be poisonous to people who are here to learn. This is one of them. Plenty of studies have been done and everything I have read from op is 100% false and just purely stated as an opinion. Old does drop fawns. I have witnessed a doe over estimated at least 12 years old, every spring, come into my uncle's back yard to fawn her twins and she has been faithful in her return and faithful in carrying a set of twins. Not only that but the intelligence to keep her fawns safe, and I believe a mature does experience is passed on through her children. Giving the future a better idea and better made decisions in higher fawn survival rates.
I'm not going to offer an opinion on the percentage of old does that give birth to fawns because I really don't know anything about it, but I'll tell you this...
Whenever I hear somebody talk about 200 pound field dressed does, it kind of says nut job to me and I tend not to pay much attention to anything else they say...
A few years back I had an old doe that was at least fourteen years old. She was missing a portion of her back right leg. She hung out around our area when I built my home. I found her up against our home one day in March. She was gaunt and ready to die. I called the DNR to have a warden come put her down. They said I could put her down, but they wanted the head to age. They told me they can only age to age nine and every thing after that was just a guess which surprised me.
One of the very few that outwitted hunters and 4 legged predators
FYI: A 200 lb dressed deer is going to weigh 240-250 on the hoof...
" From: Nocturnal 31-Dec-19 I apologize for not reading the whole thread in its entirety but I believe that certain kinds of misinformation can be poisonous to people who are here to learn. This is one of them. Plenty of studies have been done and everything I have read from op is 100% false and just purely stated as an opinion. Old does drop fawns. I have witnessed a doe over estimated at least 12 years old, every spring, come into my uncle's back yard to fawn her twins and she has been faithful in her return and faithful in carrying a set of twins. Not only that but the intelligence to keep her fawns safe, and I believe a mature does experience is passed on through her children. Giving the future a better idea and better made decisions in higher fawn survival rates. "
What a total pompous azz maneuver. Not read the thread then come in with your slime.
No one, including the OP said anything about OLD does. It is about old gray mares which are inherently defined by the characteristic they do not have a fawn and are old and large. Not as simple as your misrepresentation. Please learn to think correctly before screwing with me.
How about in stead of us taking your hindendessness's word for it you link us with those studies? Or STFU.
If she didn't provide a surviving fawn this year what do you figure the odds she will do so in the future? Never mind that there is supposedly an overpopulation issue here (not that I agree ) . What better doe to take if you are so inclined? Take the one that out-competes the young bucks and beneficial does.
I'll report the easy to find studies when you post pictures of all the 200 # mares does you have shot? If you cant than you should just STFU or GTFOH. You have bafoomed your credibility
Day 3 and still no pictures of the 200# doe on a scale? The suspense is killing me. Please post one doorknob.
Hoot, Glad you were able to put her down before some dogs got her in her last days. Good on you
I believe as long as a doe is healthy enough to give birth, then she will if breed no matter her age. About 15 years ago my brother and I were hunting the Townsend area where we had hunted for years before my parents sold and moved south, I decided to take a very big doe that had 2 other does with her, not sure if they were her fawns or not but i would guess they were, we took the deer into town for registration and had it weighed and aged because it was so big for a doe, the DNR person who was there said its the oldest deer he had seen and it was the biggest doe i had ever seen and still is to this date. Dressed at 180 and was aged to be 12 years old, the DNR person said that it was a good thing to have shot the deer because her teeth were gone and not sure how much longer she would survive. When i first seen her I thought it was a big buck following 2 does, until i seen their was no head gear.
Carl
You guys are funny. For me personally, if I knew for sure that a doe was actually an “old grey mare”, she’d get a pass for two reasons. 1)..she might taste good but she’s definitely going to be tougher than shoe leather. 2)..she’s made it this long and I would feel guilty killing her.
Mnhunter1980 - I never put her down. The next morning I went out to dispatch her and she was gone after being there a few days. That late afternoon I was leaving and saw her bedded down about thirty yards off our driveway, so in the morning I figured i'd shoot her. Next morning-----nothing. She died up against my neighbor's cabin and he found her after the snow melt. It was a bittersweet ending as she was always spotted around our place. She was always a loner as I'd see other deer run her off seeing her weakness.
" From: Nocturnal 31-Dec-19
I'll report the easy to find studies when you post pictures of all the 200 # mares does you have shot? If you cant than you should just STFU or GTFOH. You have bafoomed your credibility " in that post especially strong the boink wit is ^ Not sure exactly what your problem is ... but strong possibility exists it involves a chemical imbalance of some sort, possibly combined with genetic issues. I never bothered with photos of does harvested and hardly ever photo graph the buck. Sorry to make you cry. I never expected some moron would require it.
I run a Hanson scale and have calibrated it and checked that over the years and it is spot on. I hardly weigh anything anyway anymore.
I could probably find photos from trail cams of does that would exceed your expectations. Even though I usually delete most of the images because who has the storage space or would want to bother going back and looking at them unless they had some otherwise neat content.
But why should I waste my time for that just because some sub-intellect on the internet is calling me a liar?
You are the kind of person that is responsible for the low attendance here. Reasonable peeps just go find something else to do that get subjected to your azzwholery.
Have a nice life and go boink yourself
Ok, I just wasted a solid half hour googling whitetail doe weight and I call bullshit on a two hundred pounder. A two hundred pound doe in wisco is the equivalent of the Hanson buck. With all the hunters we have in our state, one might get killed every ten years. Prove me wrong.
""dress @ 170 to 200"" go again
" From: Crusader dad 01-Jan-20
Ok, I just wasted a solid half hour googling whitetail doe weight and I call bullshit on a two hundred pounder. A two hundred pound doe in wisco is the equivalent of the Hanson buck. With all the hunters we have in our state, one might get killed every ten years. Prove me wrong. "
Just as an aside, asking to prove a negative is a logical fallacy. Poor excuse for argument or debate. Certainly does not make your point.
By the way, there is a 1920's USA made toaster in orbit around Uranus . Prove me wrong ! See the problem?
But let us rise above all the childish crap. Bring it on why the OP is not the right thing to do.
The whole thread of men are calling you a liar and have been asking you to post proof. But why should you, right?
He may be right... this is the trail camera pic he sent me
“170-200 dressed”,,, that brings the live weight up to 190-230, c’mon man. Just own it. You over exaggerated. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot because of it. Regarding the OP, they’ve made it that long, let nature take its course. If you’re not going to eat it then why kill it? You might say, “donate it”. Well, if I’m not going to feed myself and my family shoe leather, why would I force it on somebody else? None of us have to kill a deer in order to feed our families but most of us enjoy the taste of venison so why would we knowingly shoot something that nobody is going to enjoy? #savethegrannies!
Thanks pasq! Finally a picture of the reclusive old gray mare.
We named her;
"Door Knobs Doe Blob"
There it is pasq. I take all my words back! Great trail camera picture doorknob! The great and mysterious mare has shown itself. I thought it only walked with bigfoot?
That’s the deer version of Octomom!
" From: Nocturnal 02-Jan-20
The whole thread of men are calling you a liar and have been asking you to post proof. But why should you, right? "
If you find a actual man calling me a liar let me know. Ya useless bitch.
Old grey mare..lol. My adjoining neighbors justify their doe kills by saying they shot an old dried up grey doe....ummm ok.
" From: Crusader dad 02-Jan-20
“170-200 dressed”,,, that brings the live weight up to 190-230, c’mon man. Just own it. You over exaggerated. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot because of it. Regarding the OP, they’ve made it that long, let nature take its course."
PAY ATTENTION TO THE CONCEPT... FOR THE GOOD OF THE HERD.
" If you’re not going to eat it then why kill it? " I EAT WHAT I KILL AND SHARE, NEVER HARVEST WITHOUT THE EXPECTATION IT WILL BE PUT TO GOOD USE. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS THAT YOU FIGURED IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO TRY TO FALSELY IMPUTE THAT DIARRHEA ON TO ME? NOT GOING TO WORK. I SUGGEST YOU GET A CLUE BEFORE DROPPING YOUR DIARRHEA ON ME AGAIN.
"You might say, “donate it”. Well, if I’m not going to feed myself and my family shoe leather, why would I force it on somebody else?"
WHY WOULD YOU SAY SHOE LEATHER? EVER ATE A DEER?
None of us have to kill a deer in order to feed our families but most of us enjoy the taste of venison so why would we knowingly shoot something that nobody is going to enjoy? #savethegrannies! "
GET MATURE BEFORE YOU SCREW WITH ME AGAIN.
Wow somebody needs a time out.
Carl
your handle is appropriate.
I am getting ready to issue time outs.
You cant prove it because this does not exist, and your little boy temper doesnt convince the people either, but the very opposite. I dont understand why you dont just post pictures to back up your claim when have been asked a half dozen times? Why would you start a thread like this? The way you speak as If it's nothing for a doe to dress out at 170-200 is funny all by itself. You need to recalibrate your scale. By the way, the largest doe killed on record was 248 on the hoof and the doe was estimated to be 14 years old in southern Alberta.
Doorknob, you’re an idiot. Go down to Illinois, buy a joint, light it up and cool your jets. Killing granny isn’t for the betterment of the herd and yes, granny is going to be tough as shoe leather.
I would get pictures every year of a doe with an ear that had a "bite" or something taking out of it. Very distinct marking. The first time I got a picture of her she had twins, followed her on film for another 8 years (she had to of been 2 years by the first picture I had of her) as it was a "look forward to" moment to see if she made it another year. She's gone now but like clock work 2 fawns every year bad winter or not. On top of that she was big, going with maybe 150lbs(pushing it) if dressed but not even close to 170-200lbs range.
You stick with your shooting of "gray mares" mantra as you can see most here do not buy into the wives tales.
Well then the record books need up dating. Where do I register the next pope & young / B&C record doe? I never took photos of the big old does, how was I supposed to predict some future sub intellect on the internet would require them to defend from his insulting ignorant lame unfounded inappropriate accusations? Sorry if you never saw nor harvested nor even had old gray mares in your area. There might be a reason why. Just like the guys who complain there are not big bucks so they shoot small bucks and perpetuate the reality.
Not sure what sort of genetic deficiencies or post birth head trauma caused the issues flung against me here, but I'll put it out here another way for those that didn't grasp the OP first time around. Try to focus on the logic.
Supposing you had open tags left for any deer in the herd, and you had planned to take one more deer for your freezer, even if it wasn't going to be a big buck or any buck at all. And you were presented on the last minute on the last day of the season with an opportunity to take either: a fawn of either sex, a young doe or an old gray mare .... which one do you reason would be best for the herd, and which would you take anyway? And why.
The old gray mare goes down. Everytime
I have always refrained from shooting old gray mares as I did not want to pay reparations for the landowner’s horse.
Sorry, could not resist! :)
Why? Sausage. Sticks, Etc. And I'm assured of receiving back the meat I deliver in February. And she do have the meat. No brainer
This thread gets better the more you respond and Yet still, not a single picture? This thread is useless without any pictures! You know, the ones with lots of facial hair, those 200 lb dressed out grannies? The ones that baby sit their daughters kids because they can't have any! Lol
I’m taking the doe fawn. She’s most likely to succumb to predation and she’s going to taste yummy and tender. I don’t need much venison so a fawn provides the right amount for me. She’s most likely to not be carrying offspring or at least not be carrying twins. I eat the meat the way it is and don’t grind to burger or turn it into jerky so I prefer to shoot something on the younger side.
Doe fawn, place the most stress on the habitat as they are growing the most if the herd needs thinning otherwise don't shoot any.
Lol..... how much stress does a doe fawn put in habitat?? Your probably kill more corn, soybean or any other vegetation walking in/out every time you. Kill nubby buck before doe fawn.
Ha! This is cracking me up. Soooo much anger over nothing. My 2 cents - Old does taste fine. They aren't tough. Shooting does is sound deer management. Does do NOT weigh 200 lbs!.......ever. All of us arguing about this nonsense look like idiots.
Fawns and 1.5 yr old put demand on resources as the they are growing at the fastest rate. Require most energy, like kids growing.
Not sure I understand what you are saying Screwball. Are you saying that a fawn eats as much as an adult doe because she is growing faster? Nope, dont believe it.
Carl
Anybody have an old gray mare they’re ready to take this opening weekend?!
I do. I do. Should have her skun by 9 am. Three years with twins. This year nothing. Guess she will taste good
