Arrow question
Connecticut
Contributors to this thread:
Question for you guys.. My draw length is 26”, bow is at 60# (single hard cam) my current target arrows are 27” 360 total grains. If I was to put 125 grain broad heads that would only put at 385 grains. Would like my hunting arrows to be closer to 450 to 500 grains. Any suggestions on new shafts/ fixed blade broad head combo that would get me there? Budget under $200.
What are your arrows now? They sound way under spined. You’ll add the proper weight by going up in spine to help with added more weight up front for better FOC. The grains per inch of arrow will dictate a lot.
Gold Tip 5575 Expedition hunter I believe they’re 400 spine
That shaft has only 8.2 grain per inch. Next time you purchase arrows / shafts get a lower spine value, below 400,
ONLY IF your bow's IBO advertised speed is over 315 fps. Otherwise keep spine at 400 and see if you can add a 100 grains or more brass insert to that shaft. You are lucky because internal diameter of .246 allows you to use 100 grains brass inserts which can be firmed in the shaft using Bohning 1308 Ferry-L-Tite Cool Flex hot glue melt. Use heavier broadheads / field tips such as 150 gr up to 200 gr. Make sure broadheads and field tips have the same weight. So in conclusion a 27" 400 spine shaft of 8.2 GPI yields 221 grains plus 100 grain insert plus 125 grains broadhead or field tip plus 40 grains vanes + nock equals 486 grains arrow. With a 150 grains broadhead you go up to 501 grains arrow. Not bad. Also a 27" 340 spine shaft of 8.9 GPI yields 240 grains plus 100 grain insert plus 125 grains broadhead or field tip plus 40 grains vanes + nock equals 505 grains arrow. With a 150 grains broadhead you go up to 530 grains arrow.
Insert 100 gr brass - https://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLD-TIP-246-standard-BRASS-INSERTS-1dz-100-grain-inserts-for-246-shafts/312947418001?epid=1200118016&hash=item48dd1ea391:g:Fi4AAMXQ0pNQ9yFK
or
https://www.amazon.com/GOLD-TIP-BRASS-246-INSERT/dp/B0094LRFC2/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=0.246+brass+insert&qid=1579670709&sr=8-1
If that does not work switch to Easton Full Metal Jacket 340 spine shafts at 11.3 grain per inch GPI. At 27" a Easton FMJ will yield 305 grains plus 125 graind broadhead or field tip plus 50 or 75 grains brass insert plus another 40 grains vanes / nock for a grand total of 520 or 545 grains hunting arrow.
NOTE: Do not worry about the speed loss due to heavier arrow. Arrow weight leads to increased penetration. Loss of speed means you will have to limit your shots below 40 yards and only on calm animals.
Sixlomaz, thanks for the information and links, appreciate it! Ok, I’ll try the brass inserts and heavier heads to start with and work from there.
You can also cut your arrows down to improve spine. Your arrows are long and probably hang over your riser a few inches....but you have little arrows to begin with. I shoot a 30” draw and my arrows are 29”. And they weigh 505 grains finished.
I’d bump up to a 340 spine and play with those rather than go with an under-spined 400 for the weight you want to put up front. Just food for thought.
Bloodtrail,Appreciate the input.Was thinking for a now buying 100 grain inserts and 150 grain field points and see how they shoot/tune then purchase new shafts from there. My current spine is good. You think I’d be under spine with adding the 250 grains to the front of my arrows?
How fast is your bow rated at IBO standard? The shorter you cut the shaft the stiffer the spine. You already cut 5" of shaft which had a stiffening impact on the spine (went from 400 towards 300) which should be balanced by adding front weight which makes the shaft more flexible increasing the value back towards 400. On compound bows tolerances in arrow spine are greater than traditional bows. Tinker with what you have.
IBO 315 Yeah that’s i I figured before I spend the money. With what I mentioned above it would put me over 500grns and could always go down a bit from there with 75grn inserts and 125 heads depending.
Just remember that adding a lot of tip weight will increase your foc. I used Gold Tips foc calculator and came up with almost 20% based on what you are proposing with 125 grain point and 100 grain wt insert.Easton recommends 10-15% but says higher percentages will fly well but nose dive as the arrow sheds speed. Also adding a lot of upfront wt will have the effect of requiring a higher spine for good flight. You may find that with 225 grains up front your 400 spine may not be enough. Just some food for thought.
Maybe just try a heavier 340 spine arrow with a 125 or 150 grain point.
Jerry, thanks for the info. I’ll definitely keep that in mind.
The arrow charts I see say 360 is correct for 60-65 lbs with 27" length. I never got too wrapped up in tweeking my arrows as long as they fly true and hit where I aim.
Bigbuckbob, the arrows I have shoot fine. But could they be quieter, have better penetration , and hit harder..
Tree, I understand. I let the bow shop do a complete tune up for me from field points, broadheads, fletching, nock point, etc. Mostly because I don't have the expertise to keep up with changes in technology. I rather take a walk in the woods than read a technical bulletin on the new science of arrow flight and knock down power. I'm lazy that way. Confidence in your set-up is important, so go after it.
I hear ya. I’d rather take a walk in the woods also.
check out vpa broadheads, they go up to 300 grains, also get some 300 spine arrows. I'm running the 2 blade 200 grain vpa broadheads and 300 spine beman ics hunter arrows w/ 4" feathers (60# 28"). quieted my bow significantly, more penetration, more consistent flight even in wind. the downside is larger pin gaps, but I think the advantages outweigh this.
HolePuncher, I’ll check them out thanks. Thinking about FOC as mentioned above..I ordered the 100 grain brass inserts and will start with my100 grn.heads. That will give me a 460 grn. arrow. For my set up and draw weight that may be more than enough.
Hole, so larger pin gaps means greater arrow flight arc. Does this ever interfere with taking a shot because the arrow may hit branches not seen in the impact point? Just something to consider.
^^^ no. You just look at your pins to see what is in the way. It’s a pretty snazzy trick. There’s a big trend to go to heavier arrows for all the reasons some state above. Better, consistent flight. Quieter bows. More penetration. There’s really very little downside. The small loss in FPS is all relative. But you have to tinker with it yourself. You can’t let a pro-shop tune your bow without you there.....YOU have to be the one shooting that arrow in front of them. Your form will dictate how well your arrow leaves the bow. :)
yes more weight makes the arrow arc more. an advantage to more arc is when hunting in thick stuff, you can arc the arrow over brush between you and your target. of course you have to be more careful shooting under something. also more weight means less deflection if your arrow does hit some brush.
Just my opinion You are currently shooting an arrow that will be a very little on the stiff side at your DL (short power stroke) if I had to guess. YOur 360gr is acceptable but I understand that you want a heavier arrow...going up to 500gr w your setup may be overkill. I think if you shoot for 450gr you would be very happy w performance gain. For a starting point I would consider cutting 1-1.5" off the front of your arrow, then adding a 50gr or 75gr brass insert and 125 gr tips. That is a HUGE jump in total weight up front. Beyond that you are going to have to look for a stiffer and heavier arrow.
you have it backwards Shawn, the slower your bow shoots the heavier of an arrow you will need to get the penetration of a faster bow.
lets say your going on squirrel hunt and you have the choice of a golf ball or ping pong ball as your weapon, which would you choose?
you can lob the golf ball and do more damage then your hardest throw with the ping pong ball.
I'm not following the whole discussion, but want to remind you that increasing the point weight will weaken the spine of the shaft. That is, the flex of the shaft on release increases, causing the shaft to perform as a would a weaker spine. For a right-handed shooter this may cause the point of impact to shift right.
Shawn, to your point. I’m starting my experiment with 460 grains of total arrow weight. I agree, for my set up 500 and up is probably too much. I could always drop the insert weight to 75 grns with 100 grn heads depending. Like someone mentioned above due to my arrows being only 27” there pretty stiff. So I should be fine if I keep it 460 or 435.
HP...trust me I am aware of the point you are trying to make. But 500gr arrow w a 26" draw length at 60# of DW is OVERKILL, there is a happy medium. Shooting a 450gr arrow is still heavier than 90% of the hunters out there these days.
Tree, do you know how the heavier arrow will impact speed? Kinetic energy is determined by mass and velocity, so there's a point of diminishing returns.
BBB, I haven’t done any testing yet. Been reading up on it. Starting off at 460 with one arrow and can go down from there to 430 and so forth. Once I do some tests I’ll post the results.
I think several of us would be interested in seeing how you make out. Would love to see the results of heavier arrows x slower speeds and resulting K.E.
Doesn't a heavier arrow produce a flater trajectory down range making it faster and more ki than a light arrow
Notme, From what I understand a heavier arrow maintains speed down range where a lighter arrow is faster off the bow but loses speed quicker.
Treebeard 's Link
CORRECTION
"Notme, From what I understand a heavier arrow maintains speed down range where a lighter arrow is faster off the bow but loses speed quicker. "
Actually, a heavier arrow maintains momentum (yields better penetration) down range while losing (NOT speed) altitude quicker than a lighter arrow (flatter trajectory). A heavier arrow will have a more lobbed trajectory arc and you will need an increased distance between bow sight pins when setting up. Anywhere between 450 to 550 grains is a good hunting arrow.
PRO: less bow noise/vibration, more momentum at target, better chance of handling deflection, less wind drifting
CON: increased chance of hitting a branch if you do not pay attention to the other pins and their superimposition or not on obstacles at set ranges, slower arrow speed mitigated by shots at closer ranges below 30 yards
SixLomaz, thank you. Good information.
I meant to post and comment on a different video above. Can’t find the one I was looking for.
Jerry Leblanc's Link
Read this link. It explains why a light arrow loses speed at a faster rate than an otherwise identical heavy arrow.
Another con: when you get old you don't want to carry ANYTHING that's made heavier :)
the question we all want to know is how much arrow weight is really needed, the problem is there is way to many variables to pick the best arrow weight for every situation.
for example, a perfect broadside shot through the rib cage at 15 yards at a calm deer, a 300 grain arrow is perfectly adequate.
another shot is taken at 25 yards quartering away and the deers body drops and twists as the arrow impacts, the 300 grain arrow does not not pass through and only gets one lung. the 600 grain arrow pile drives through both lungs, through the offside shoulder and into the dirt on the other side of the deer.
so if everything goes perfect you don't need a heavy arrow. check out ranch fairy on youtube if you want to learn more about "adult arrows"
In case you don’t want to read the whole article here is a quote.
“At typical archery distances, the lighter arrow will almost always maintain a higher speed than the heavier arrow. Even though the lighter arrow is slowing down faster, it started out much faster and the heavier arrow is also slowing down. Because the heavier arrow is decelerating at a slower rate, it will maintain a higher percentage of it’s original speed than the faster arrow. Also remember that the heavier arrow has more kinetic energy and momentum than the lighter arrow at launch already. This gap only grows larger as the arrows progress downrange.”
Note that this quote assumes that both the heavy and light arrows start out at the same speed which is not the usual case.
SixLomaz's Link
Well, the article speaks only about the air friction effect or also known as drag. I do not see a hint of the gravitational force taken into account also acting on the arrow as it detaches itself from the string. The author also measures / calculates Ke and Momentum only up to 20 yards and then it throws up in the thin air a conclusion about speed values.
It is possible that the heavy arrow maintains speed better than the lighter arrow at longer distances but remember that at bow the heavy arrow starts with a lower speed and by the time it reaches 40 yards will probably have more speed than the lighter arrow which started with a higher speed at bow. In practice the distances rarely go to 40 yards due to terrain and obstacles. Therefore the lighter arrow will have more speed at target at 20 yards than a heavy arrow. The heavy arrow will drop much faster in altitude than a lighter arrow so I tend to believe that a lighter arrow will travel a longer distance despite lower Ke and momentum at bow and the increased loss of speed during flight. See the link above for an article discussing heavy arrow advantages. The author recommends 8 grain per bow weight pound for 60# bows which yields a 480 grains arrow for a speed / weight compromise for a maximum momentum at target.
I wonder if 3 self igniting mini booster engines placed on the arrow probably at fulcrum point will keep the arrow trajectory flatter while preserving Ke, momentum and speed.
Six, according to the math, the heavier arrow will not have more speed, it will have more kinetic energy.
Treebeard 's Link
Good articles. This was the video I meant to post by DIY sportsman on the subject.
Six, the arrows both drop at that the same speed. You can’t fool gravity.
great article, every bowhunter needs to read it. it would drastically reduce the number of wounded and unrecovered animals.
His first statement is flawed. 406 to 506 grains is a 25 percent increase in weight, so the loss of speed is expected to also be substantial. Then he adds just 120 grains to an arrow that already weighs 1043 which is a weight increase of roughly 8 percent, and then says that the impact on speed is less the heavier you go out on the scale, so be careful on this info. Now I need to finish watching it.
BT, while they do drop at the same rate, the faster arrow does it over a great horizontal distance.
And one factor to consider that I haven't seen anyone mention is the loss in speed allows a greater deer reaction time to the shot. If you haven't viewed slo-mo video of how dramatic that can be please look it up. Lots to consider.
yes bbb, the lighter arrow is more likely to hit an animal at further distances, but less likely to kill it.
Notme's Link
https://youtu.be/wYi_hq2p1Ac
The slo mo effect..slow at the shot with more k I.
The heavier arrow starts out slower than the lighter arrow, but the heavier arrow generally retains more speed down range. The lighter arrow is not more likely to hit an animal at further distances than the heavy arrow, that's an assumption. Neither is less likely or more likely to hit an animal down range, it's all about range estimation. You have a slightly smaller margin for error at normal archery ranges in your range estimation with a lighter arrow, but only slightly. At distance the opposite is true. The heavy arrow usually has greater momentum than a lighter arrow not kinetic energy. Generally a lighter faster arrow will have greater kinetic energy than a slow heavy arrow. Not always and a slower heavier arrow will not always have more momentum than a lighter faster arrow. It just depends on the weight and speed difference in each case that you are comparing.
"the lighter arrow is more likely to hit an animal at further distances"
Probably not, because the lighter arrow is louder, and in any case, the speed of sound is constant and faster than any arrow. The farther the shot distance, gives the deer more reaction time. That's why long shots with a crossbow are "iffy".
“You have a slightly smaller margin for error at normal archery ranges in your range estimation with a lighter arrow, but only slightly. At distance the opposite is true. “ The only time the opposite would be true is when the lighter arrow loses so much speed it ends up slower than the heavy one. There are a few variables that would effect this. The difference in initial speed, the difference in mass, the distance the arrow has traveled and the drag coefficients of each arrow. Seems like it would probably be a pretty long distance before the heavier arrow ends up faster. I’m just guessing about that.
Hole, I agree the heavier will have great, potential penetration, however the ability to kill an animal has more to do with shot placement. So if you're accuracy is the same, the heavier arrow wins. I have to say, I've never spent this much time considering the variables of arrow weight so thanks to tree for asking about it.
Interestingly enough, I have observed more deer react more drastically on closer shots than longer shots. It leads me to believe that the sound may be louder to them at closer range. May be just coincidence but that's been my impression.
Jerry, "The only time the opposite would be true is when the lighter arrow loses so much speed it ends up slower than the heavy one." That's usually what does it. When you're talking about drag, with increased speed you get increase drag. At usual at least in the East, archery distances, you typically don't see the heavier arrow going faster, but at distances many people shoot in the west, Heavier arrows retain velocity longer and it's not substantially longer. What that distance is varies and is dependent on what you are comparing. I think the thing to remember, is when you hear someone say a heavier arrow is, this, compared to a lighter arrow or vice versa, you have to consider that the statement is made in general terms and is not linear across the board