A new article for the S. I. debate
Connecticut
Interesting the cops think hunting in an incredibly high human population density within NYC limits is a bad idea. What could possibly go wrong?
I have to agree with Dr Williams on this point. Hunting the 3,000 acres in the greenbelt area of Staten island, hundreds of feet away from any occupied area, from an elevated stand with a bow and arrow is far more dangerous than hunting from the gazebo in the backyard of a Fairfield county home overlooking the swimming pool just feet away from children playing in another backyard. And everyone knows that the New York Police department employees are experts on the topic of wildlife Management and understanding the art of safe hunting. So let's not talk about this issue any longer and continue to pay White Buffalo 6 and 1/2 million dollars of taxpayer money to continue the program to sterilize the bucks year after year after year after year ad infinitum.
And I especially like the new NY policy of releasing arrested criminals without bail because it's detrimental to criminals that don't have as much money as criminals that are better off. That way they can pick up where they left off. We wouldn't want to interrupt their ability to commit crimes, that's just wrong.
Just to remind everyone, mayor Bill extended the buck snipping another two years for an additional $2.5 mil because the process WB is employing is so successful. Oh wait, if it was working as proposed wouldn't the process stop as planned? I guess there's still taxpayer money they haven't spent yet. Carry on.
Not much CT taxpayers can do about deer management in NYC, but I’m sure residents appreciate the concern. If NYC taxpayers disagree with the current strategy, they can go to the ballot box to let their voices be heard.
New York, NYC in general is a tough state to live in. I’m 80 miles north of NYC and never had much interest in it. They should relocate the deer to other areas same as they do with bears here. Put them in the Adirondack Mountain’s.
You're absolutely correct Dr Williams. I also wonder if it would have made more sense to euthanize the bucks once they were tranquilized since that would immediately reduce the herd, reduce deer/car incidents, send the meat to the soup kitchens and be a step closer to reducing Lyme disease.
Or if there are so few doe based on WB's count it would have more cost effective to sterilize the few doe, much lower cost, less time needed and the bucks would be chasing doe that were coming into heat.
Bucks would NOT be chasing. Tired today.
If you euthanize an animal, you cannot eat the meat. :)
If a bullet and the brain is involved, you can totally eat the meat.
BT, I wasn't saying to pump drugs into them (maybe a bullet is not the method either). I would use the same method used on cattle, whatever that is.
You guys are kind of right. If you dart a deer with immobilizing drugs, it can’t be consumed by humans for 60 days. So dart and euthanasia is an option for population reduction, but not for consumption/donation of the meat.
Bob, it’s as if you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to urban deer management. “... use the same method used on cattle, whatever that is.” Sounds like you have this completely thought through. Staten Island should hire you to solve the deer issue with taxpayer money.
So you can dart the deer, kill it but just not send it to shelters for 60 days, right?
No. The animal needs to be alive for 60 days to fully metabolize the drugs.
Oh, so the tranquilized deer can't be eaten!
BBBob keeps pulling the string, and he keeps clashing the cymbals.
The buck to doe ratio is the same on SI as it is in any urban deer population. You are letting Glenn’s fuzzy deer counting math get in the way of logic.
Logic? Its logical to spend millions of taxpayer dollars giving deer vasectomies? When for far less, they could hire professional hunters or what have you, to go cull to population and send the meat to shelters. Thus reducing the population of the deer but helping to curb lyme disease and also to feed homeless people. I'll even give you that they should do the vasectomies and cull the herd.
They can cut off and tie all the tubes that they want but it wont stop lyme disease from running rampant all over that island. It's okay if I have a life threatening disease as long as the deer are safe. Lololololol. Logic.
Dr Williams, White Buffalo reported the deer herd to be between 1917 in roughly 2,200 and they also reported sterilizing 1577 bucks. That doesn't sound like a normal buck-to-doe ratio to me. I'm not sure Glenn was involved in any deer surveys on Staten island.
My logic comment was that Bob was suggesting WB should focus on does because there are so few of them on SI. Well, that is not the case. That was Glenn’s fuzzy math of adding up the three-year total of how many bucks were sterilized and subtracting that from the estimated one year herd size which seemed to suggest there were like 2000 bucks and like 100 does on SI, which is ridiculous and obviously an erroneous calculation.
Yes Bob. 1577 was the three-year total of bucks sterilized in 2016, 2017, and 2018. Subtracting that from a one-year population estimate does not yield the number of does. Come on man.
https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/staten-islands-4-1m-deer-vasectomy-scheme-is-working/
“Professional hunters”? WB provides that service as well and it is a whole lot cheaper and less labor intensive than the current strategy. There is a discharge ordinance in place in NYC that includes arrows, so hunting is not an option, never mind the fact there are nearly 5,000 people/square mile on Staten Island. The fairly-elected politicians chose to spend NYC taxpayer money using this strategy to control their deer. If the NYC taxpayers don’t like it, they can vote their politicians out of office. This has nothing to do with CT people. Nothing.
Doc’s right this is a issue in NY not Conn. New York is a sanctuary state. All are welcome even the deer Bob.
I don't agree (go figure, right) that game management practices in one area or state has no impact on others. Let's say the SI project is a huge success; one would be correct to assume other areas would adopt the same process. Or, if it's a huge failure it would be ruled out for consideration in other areas. And when tax money is used it effects every taxpayer in that area. So following the SI project is no different than showing interest in our neighboring state NY adopting a criminal release program. It spreads like coronavirus.
Dr Williams, the deer herd numbers belong to WB, both the buck total and total herd number.
in July of 2019 the New York Post quoted WB as saying 1577 bucks were sterilized out of a total herd population of 1727. The math is pretty simple.
Sorry Dr Williams, I just read your comment about "same method used for cattle" I was referring to killing them (not a bullet). I we both know I could never solve the deer herd problem ANYWHERE based upon my record, right?
No Bob. The article does not say that “…1577 bucks were sterilized out of a total herd population of 1727.” It says:
“The city Parks Department trumpeted a “downward trend in overall population” Friday, after White Buffalo – the contractor that has sterilized 1,577 bucks — released a new population count of 1,737 deer in the borough, saying that births have decreased sharply.”
It also says that they have been sterilizing deer since 2016, confirming that 1,577 is the three year sterilization total. You realize that in Year 1 of the sterilizing effort, that a full breeding season had occurred and all does were likely pregnant. So all those fawns hit the ground and about half of them would need to be sterilized in Year 3, when they are relatively mature. So to be clear, your logic is if there are an estimated 1,727 deer in 2019, that if we subtract the number of bucks that were sterilized in 2016, 2017, and 2018 combined, that will yield the number of does remaining in 2019. While you are correct that subtracting one number from another is pretty simple math, in this case, it is obviously not correct math. I am glad you are not in charge of managing deer, anywhere.
I'm glad I'm not managing any deer herds too Dr Williams since I love retirement and that sounds like difficult work. So let me ask, if there's 1700+ total deer in 2019 how many would you say are doe and how many are bucks based upon normal ratios? I know they are just educated numbers and not actual counts. Thanks
In unhunted deer populations, 20% are adult males, 40% adult females, and 40% are fawns. So in a herd of 1700, 680 are does, 680 fawns, and 340 are bucks.
Dr Williams, thanks for the information and providing some understanding on how the counts work.
No problem. Wow, such respect. Did these guys get to you or what?
No one gets to me. :) I said I respected your knowledge about things like this and I meant it.
Ha. That’s cool. Pretty piss poor rack for a 3.5 year old buck. Must be not much nutrition and a lot of competition on Staten Island. Probably why he swam outta there….. Again, these guys don’t have it entirely correct. These animals are not “injected with a sterilization.” They are surgically sterilized which makes them consumable by humans after 60 days has elapsed from the time of the injection of the immobilizing drugs. Seeing as this one was captured two years ago, it was ready to be eaten. I hope it did not go to waste.
But he is correct about the female immunocontraceptive injections making the meat inedible for humans. But because the immunocontraceptives don’t really work and the animals needed to be boosted every couple years with yet another injection, it makes more sense to surgically sterilize them. That way animals need to be handled only once, they are 100% physically sterilized, and consumable if harvested by a hunter.
Theres not much nutrition bc theres so many deer on the island destroying all the food sources.
Notme's article is exactly what concerns me as a hunter and why I'm interested in the SI program. The MAIN concern I have is being forced to pay for such a program and CT is ripe for a program similar to SI with the Democratic control in this state.
I'm not sure how to post a link but copy and paste this to read how bowhunters are being PAID to kill deer in Massachusetts. I'd say they have a great model!
https://vineyardgazette.com/news/2019/09/30/bow-hunters-offered-financial-incentive-take-more-deer
Yup. Prob why this guy fled to NJ, to find resources. Bob, V’s post was not an “article.” It was a NJ bow hunter’s Facebook post that you happen to agree with. An opinion piece if you will.
Bigern, can you show me a study where bowhunting met a community’s deer management goals, paid or not?
Dr Williams, define community.
Rephrase. BigErn. When has bowhunting alone, paid or unpaid, ever met deer management objectives?
I can't say this is a cure all but I believe it is a step in the right direction. The issue is too many deer for the island destroying the vegetation and the number of ticks these deer carry, they need the numbers reduced.The take of does has increased the last couple years and we shall see where it goes from here...the author stated that it is a work in progress. I put this out just mostly for the information but would be pleased if it does catch on and helps the locals out. Here is a link to another related article.
https://vineyardgazette.com/news/2019/11/07/deer-subsidy-program-catches-bow-hunters
Dr Williams, when has ANY single action met the deer management objectives? You have referred to the single digit deer herd numbers in states like Maine in the past, where I don't recall ever hearing about non-hunting practices being used to reduce the herd numbers. I realize you said bowhunting alone, but my point is a controlled archery hunt can be used as just another tool in the bag to help reduce deer numbers on SI. I understand it's not legal at this time, but neither was it legal to hunt deer on certain watershed areas in CT until they made it legal through a controlled hunt. There are taxpaying SI citizens and political official in favor of such a cull.
Block Island put a controlled hunt in place and the latest news is "Deer cull is working" according to the Block Island Times. And they were being told to hire WB at a cost of $128k to do the job. The other interesting piece of information is that hunting licenses in the state of RI have declined from approx 10k to 6k and now the state is concerned about "Conservations Funding". So not only is hunting another tool to meet deer management objectives, but it's also a revenue stream for non-hunting related programs. I'd much rather pay my license fees than companies like White Buffalo,......but that's just me.
BigErn. I agree with you. It is a step in the right direction. A paid bounty incentivizes hunters to increase their take when deer abundances are low and it becomes less fun and more work sitting in a tree, freezing, and seeing nothing for days at a time. That is when guys typically lose interest. I guess my cynicism is the use of archery equipment in its current form as a deer management tool. It is simply too inefficient to be effective in suburban, inland settings. Heck, we have research showing that the use of shotguns (with limited archery) and unlimited tags with bait in suburban settings resulted in lowering deer densities from over 100 deer/square mile to 40 deer/square mile. Impressive for sure, but suburban hunting in its current form cannot push below that 40 deer/sm as there are simply too many non-hunted refugia where deer can retreat to during the season. And as far as reducing ticks, 40 deer/sm is plenty of deer to sustain a healthy tick population. However, on islands such as the Vineyard with virtually no immigration, it could work. The sale of venison on the open market would likely help as well, but I know guys are not very keen on that.
Bob. Controlled hunting using firearms eliminated deer in Mumford Cove, CT. Non-hunting practices are used all the time to reduce herd numbers to single digit densities. It’s called sharpshooting, which is sometimes coupled with sterilizations. And like I said above, if firearms hunting cannot get deer densities below 40 deer/square mile, how possibly could a less efficient means of take like archery be more successful on Staten Island?
Also, I found your article in the Block Island Times which was dated 15 January 2017. The link above is a more recent article also published in the Block Island Times more than two years later on 31 January 2019 titled “DTF (Deer Task Force) Frustrated Over Lack of Reduction in Deer Herd.” Here is the first paragraph: “The members of the Deer Task Force, frustrated by the fact that attempts to reduce the deer population during the past several years have not gained much traction, have decided to continue a discussion with representatives of the various conservation groups on the island to open up conserved land to hunting. It is a discussion that has been ongoing for at least a decade.” How long before White Buffalo is operating on Block Island would you guess?
Thanks for the article, I was trying to find something recent but could only find the older article. It didn't say if they're allowing baiting so wondering how they're conducting the hunts.
Bob, Here an updated article on Block Island. Hunters are paid $150 for each deer tail, and have been for the last three years. WB will not be invited back to Block.
“Heather Hatfield, Chair of the Deer Task Force, informed the council that the board “may have a shortfall” for managing its annual deer tail payment program. “There is $23,000 in the budget,” she said, noting that the group “needs donations.” One of the problems she said is that “we’re not getting a lot of off-island hunters” to participate in the program. “We need to lure more hunters out here.”
So Block is still paying $150 per deer and are still disappointed in lack of deer removal, despite a $23,000 budget and are seeking additional off-island hunters to solve the problem for them.... Seems the writing is on the wall, and this is an island with zero immigration. CT hunters better help with the effort and prove me wrong....
They're going to need to invest that $23,000.00 on Agent Orange to allow hunters to solve the deer problem on Block.
Seriously Bb. That is some of the thickest vegetation I’ve ever seen. The pheasants love it though! Also few, if any, medium sized mammals out there. Very weird.
Actually, according to this article, the $150/deer tail plan started on Block in the 2014 season (https://www.blockislandtimes.com/article/deer-hunting-season-commences/47813). So while Glen’s statement: “Hunters are paid $150 for each deer tail, and have been for the last three years” is true, it would be more accurate to say that hunters have been paid $150/deer tail for the last 6 hunting seasons (2014-2019). So despite this bounty being in place for 5 seasons at the time of its writing, this article from January 2019 states that the Deer Task Committee is “frustrated over lack of reduction in deer herd.” (https://www.blockislandtimes.com/article/dtf-frustrated-over-lack-reduction-deer-herd/54155). And this article from October 2019 states “The island may have to come up with something more effective than offering $150 for each deer, because the number of deer is obviously on the rise again.” (https://www.blockislandtimes.com/article/count-deer/55976).
$150 per deer is a pretty handsome reward. Maybe it needs to be upped to $500/deer to have an impact of herd reduction. But the thing is, that is the same as professional sharpshooting prices, which guarantees results. Hunters might want to get it done out there like they have been saying they can. They no longer can say “why pay a professional when we will do it for free” because they are getting paid, and still not producing satisfactory results….
Maybe its more about getting permission to hunt private land over state.?
The WB contract was in 2014, the local Block Island program ($150) per deer tail program started in 2015.
The article doesn't really give dates, but it looks like it was published June 1 2015. It talks about paying the bounty in the past. Which leads me to believe it started at a minimum in the 2014 season. Did I miss something in the article?
That article states there was a bounty in the 2014 season, but does not state that it was the first year. This article was published in 2016 and explicitly states that it was the third year of the $150 bounty. Which is saying the same thing. The bounty started in the 2014 hunting season. Yup. 2014 it is.
I edited my previous post to reflect this. Regardless, 6 hunting seasons have gone by where hunters are paid $150 per tail and don’t appear to be getting the job done.
The WB contract was for 2014, the $150 per deer bounty program started in late 2014/2015 after the WB program failed.
If B.I. needs hunters, I'll go out there for free and kill deer. In fact, I'm gonna look it up now.
It’s not for free Handle, you get $150 per deer! And WB never killed one deer on Block, yet...
Well then I dont know what were all waiting for, let's all go cull some deers
Go for it. One or two super motivated guys willing to put up double digits every season can make a huge difference, and make some money on Block!
I'm in!!! Let's have our next dinner on the island and then blast some deer. The trip will pay for itself, except for me,....I'll need to get a loan.
The season is almost over but I'm on it for next season. It runs from October through mid February and you can get a permit to hunt the refuges too. October is archery only then archery muzzleloader and shotgun until the end. I'm all over it.
I do appreciate Doc Williams’ scholarly approach, but just one thing drives me nuts... And that’s the default assumption that recreational bowhunters pose a meaningful risk to people in the vicinity of a hunting area.
Arrows shot into the ground at steep angles just don’t go skipping off into the wild blue yonder, and I’d fully expect that a broadhead takes them down as quickly (or quicker) than a dart.
I just don’t see any hazard to the general population with archery tackle that doesn’t exist equally within a tagging/darting operation.
GF. You, me, and the rest of the people on here understand that. Do you want to be the one to explain that to all the skinny jean residents of NYC? It’s a political decision. It would be a no brainer if archery alone could actually reduce abundances. But it just skims the dumb ones off the top. Block Island is paying firearm and archery hunters $150 per deer harvested and the population is growing. If that’s the case on a rural island, how can archery alone with no compensation work on America’s arguably most urban island?
Block islands population is growing because there arent enough hunters going out there to hunt.
6 years of a $150 bounty has not worked on Block. They don’t know what else to do, so they think more hunters is better. They don’t need more hunters as that is counterproductive. They need the right hunters, guys who are crazed and willing to take 30 a year. They just need 2 or 3 guys like that.
Maybe the bounty going for 6 years isnt working bc only a small amount of hunters knows about it.
Sounds like a no brainer, bass at night deer during the day
$150 a tail, maybe a place to stay. A place to process and possibly donate. I could find the time for sure
I think I'm one of those guys Doc. Wait, just re-read your post. I thought you said take one in 30 years, so nevermind.
