Terrible lease opportunity in Kansas
Kansas
Just a heads up on a Mark Perkins from Eureka, Kansas. I leased from him last year and found out how bad things can get as year and hunting season progressed. He offered 6500 acres near Eureka, Kansas with farm house. We had 8 guys on lease and plenty of ground to hunt. I spent most of end of july and august walking ground and placing stands for season. Early season up to rut was great. After that no deer. Nothing coming to feeders and/or cameras. I found out that he was running coyote hunters, quail hunters, and water fowl guys on ground while we were not there. His disclaimer was just give him a few days notice before coming up and he will keep folks off the ground so I can deer hunt. I spend $7200 for my wife and I to hunt. I killed out in Nov. She couldn't come until later november and december. We couldn't find even a young doe to walk past us. Everything had been run off. It is very discouraging when one is sitting on stand with 20 guys on a pond a few hundred yards from you blasting away at geese. He says all this was in the contract that I never saw? and certainly was not told this before agreeing to be on lease. Then to top it off. Mr. personality told me no driving on lease to pick up my stands. I had to walk in ever how far off road because season over and its cow time. Then said he would charge me day rates to come pick up my stands and feeders while I had to walk in and out to get my gear. Stating in 'contact' that I had to have my things off by Jan. 31. We obviously did not see eye to eye on this and I ended up leaving all my stands, sticks, feeders, cameras, and ground blinds on his farm. He is a crook and will tell you how there is a deer under every rock. Please feel free to reach out to me for more information if needed. Blessing though. I ended up back in illinois on a great farm with a great bunch of guys. Still buying stands and sticks a few a time .
Well, sounds like he hit the jackpot with your group. Not only did he make lease money off you guys for the season but you all also outfitted his properties with majority of hunting equipment his future clients will need. Now just up to him to keep it all up and safe.
Wonder how the others in your group feel about it and how it was all handled especially since it appears that you handled everything and they were just along for the ride? Everyone still together as a group and hunting IL?
Glad things are working out for you in IL.
This is becoming the norm. People sell hunts not an exclusive lease that keeps everyone out. You better have a lease stating you have sole hunting rights. Frequently when I ask for permission to hunt a property the owner says yes but you will have to wait til so and so is gone. Many times they tell me that I can pheasant hunt but someone has it leased for deer hunting.
If your contract did not include exclusive hunting rights to the property, with the details you expected to be included in it (free run of the property), why did you agree to it and pay the price you did? Did you check for references and do any background work on checking out the property owner's past history of leasing the place?
I am betting by now he has leased it out to another out of state hunter, that like you, was willing to write a check for probably more money than what you paid. They probably did so, like you without checking out the landlord or complete details of the lease, because they too think nothing of paying such fees to gain quick and easy access to Kansas hunting ground because that "is how it is done in Texas".
There are laws in our state against depriving people of their property and possessions. I would suggest knowing those laws and reclaiming what belongs to you. There are also civil penalties for slandering a person publicly, calling them out, naming them as crooks on public forums.
I do not know you nor the landlord. I am offering an opinion based simply on what you have posted. I myself will never pay that kind of money in one season to hunt any wildlife species, I do not care what it is or where it is located. I love to hunt, but $7200 buys a lot of beef and fixings, 10 years of paying that much buys a lot acres with your name on the deed in the end. Then you can treat the place like you own it.
No, I do not feel sorry for you in the least bit. Nor will I for the landowners when they mismanage their properties and the wildlife on them, when people like yourself quit coming because the grass is greener in another state, bigger bucks are being shot elsewhere, and their leases are cheaper than what is offered at home.
8 guys at $7200 each is some serious coin. This why residents have such a problem with non resident leasing. Just ruining hunting for everyone. Then people post the stupid question of "why are hunter numbers declining". Well Txbowhunter just answered it for us.
I feel bad for you. That's messed up.
Ouch, sorry to hear that.
Good luck in the People’s Republic of Illinois!
I am from Eureka, and hunted private and mostly public all my life there until non resident hunters took it over with all their cash, but do not live there now. I have never seen or met the man, but I have friends and family that do know him and have never said anything bad about his leasing practices. I do not like, and have fought and voiced my opinion against out of state hunters on public lands, and hunting leases on private lands, but money talks and hunters like yourself who must be blessed with more money than sense have ruined hunting deer for resident hunters, no sympathy from me on this forum. I find it extremely hard to believe what you say about the way he operated. Again, knowing my friends and family who do know him. What did YOU do wrong.
I enjoy picking off deer and turkeys on the public that borders one of his ranches. Most locals cant stand the guy.
Thornton I expect nothing less from you.
I call BS and think the original post should be deleted.
Its public land. His property is hunted just as hard.
I find it interesting how some of you quickly shoot someone down when you know absolutely nothing about the situation. I worked with Perkins' old ranch hands wife. She told nearly identical stories about that rancher and now her husband works at a ranch in Butler County.
Thornton the only one shooting someone down would be you and the OP. The rest of us are shooting down leasing and the effect it has on hunting. There is always two sides to every story, so unless you or anyone else have seen the terms of the lease agreement, all we have is an accusation from someone no one knows. I think a lot of times on a lease, all you have is a handshake and cash exchanged. The lessee walks away assuming they have exclusive rights when it really was probably never discussed. If you are going to lease, you better have everything in writing. I would assume most landowners would prefer not to have a contract so they can do things like TEX posted. Caveat Emptor!!!!!!!!!!!
Kansasclipper.... or Landowners do no contracts so they aren’t connected to a legal binding document that could then tie them to the IRS and actually pay taxes on said income?
Thorton.....did you have “exclusive” rights and no other recreational activities “by others” written into your contracts when you ran an outfitting business?
Sun....no way that this OP could be BS for 2 reasons. 1-He calls someone out by name. 2-He describes 99.9% of Texas hunter mentality to a T!
I understand what everyone is saying, and I agree with a specific lease deal. He could have let Tex get his stuff. To top it off Greenwood County actually has fairly low deer density to start with,and I don't believe much of his property is worth that much. For that amount ($7200 for 2 people) he should have been bending over backwards to help them get a deer. after all, he inherited most of it for free from his daddy. I keep trying to tell the NR on here gushing about their "exclusive lease" in Kansas is probably not exclusive at all. Most of the local ranchers will gladly take cash but will then sublease or allow fiends to hunt when the lessors leave.
Like I said Thornton, all you have is a post from Tex. Who knows the actual situation.
The very reason I don’t lease. I’m from Texas and I guess I’m in the 0.1% that crested butte spoke of.
why call bs on my post? this is the reason why i'm posting is so others don't drink the cool aide and believe this guy. and it was 7200 for my wife and I I live in texas and hunt in texas. I love to go out of state as well. I have hunted illinois for almost 25 years. I pulled out and hit kansas when ehd hit the pike / brown counties pretty hard. again, this mark perkins is a turd and will tell you everything you want to hear. then run quail hunters through what little timber you have and expect to the deer to just come back with 'a few days notice'?? very discouraging when I drive half a day to kansas and get asked where i'm hunting because he has 20 water fowlers coming in? Again. I'm good I am in a great location with a great group of guys. I just want others to know about this guy before paying to get on farm. always a good idea to look up land owners before lease to see what others have experienced. Would have saved me alot of money over a dozen lock ons, ground blinds, 3 - 600 pound feeders, cameras including 3 of my cell plan cuddilinks. but again i'm over it but he will always be a POS
Same old story, different people. The amount of money exchanging hands is absolutely mind blowing these days. I will not say leasing wouldn’t be taking place without nonresidents, but the cost would be WAY less. We’ve exchanged crop ground rights for hunting rights before, and we also have leased from a friend before. I would never, EVER lease from anyone I did not know well and whose land was not far from us.
I guess I should go back and read all these post and see how people think. What I did wrong was one I didn't get a contract. But I have never had one one any farms or leases I have hunted. The other is I guess I should have asked if others besides the group that I was hunting with was going to hunt. His explanation to running others was that the others guys didn't hunt much after the rut so he ran other hunters. I retired from the fire service in October this last year and have my own home inspection business. I'm not made of money but I work my ass off, pay for 3 of my kids education and take care of my family. If I indulge in 7k to hunt with my wife then i guess i'm wrong??? it is great to hear how these local guys where ever you go are the first to cry about people leasing 'their ground' when it is their friends and family that is leasing the ground. and the last thing that i did wrong was that i didn't read in the contract that i didn't get where i was supposed to have everything off the farms buy jan 31 if i was not planning on getting back on the lease. I'm not going to keep trying to convince a few of how wronged I was because it seems that everyone wants to pick everything apart. but again. Mark Perkins Eureka Kansas POS! If you do lease from him good enjoy my stands they are in the good spots. just kill out the first week of nov or you will have coyote hunters at night, quail hunters during the day, and guys blasting geese on the weekends.
You have not clarified what type of agreement you had with him. Did you sign anything or was it a hand shake? Did you get exclusive deer hunting rights or exclusive rights to the entire property?
KSQ if there was not any NR hunting, we would reduce pressure by nearly 40%. We had almost 50,000 Non Residents hunt deer in Kansas last year.
ok this is my last one I guess I don't have the patience to deal with people that look at every angle I only got on this site to let others know and beware I got on the farm with a group of guys that i have hunted with before I did sign something in regards to insurance I did not ever receive any sort of contract so carry on rip it up and look at it from different angles i dont care i said my piece and could give no sh'ts about it i just wanted to let folks know god who wants to say anything on this site when everyone looks at it like CNN
Another nonresident leasing up ground and bashing residents. Same old story, different people, or not so different people. Next thing you know he’ll call residents selfish when he would never be satisfied hunting his own state. Yeah clipper, I always forget about the guys that have land here and don’t have to apply for a tag, as well as the guys who hunt here on illegally gained tenant tags.
Hey Tex maybe you were spooking ducks and quail for the other hunters. You did not get hosed at all. Caveat Emptor. You didn't receive a contract because you did not ask for one or you didn't present one. Better luck next time.
KSQ 49,384 to be exact. If you count illegal tags then well over 50,000.
Clipper, where did you get those numbers? I’m not doubting you, I just want to be able to use your source. There are around 22,000 tags drawn, correct? So the rest are nonresident landowners?
Unless I am reading it wrong. 179,247 total 129,863 resident 49,384 non resident.
If I read right, 24,000 tags were antlerless, which are attached to either sex tags. That still means over 25,000 nonresidents buck hunted here last year, which is several thousand more than I thought, and is still a large percentage of total deer hunters, around 80,000 residents buck hunted last year, assuming an either sex tag represents those who were trying to shoot a buck. Although I know a number of resident rifle hunters who gladly filled their either sex tags with does.
Notice how the crossbow harvest numbers are climbing and compound harvest numbers are declining. Only a matter time before crossbow harvest tops all other archery.
Should be a good lesson for any party involved with a Lease.
Maybe having a contract that you both have a copy of makes it too easy for the IRS to come knocking?
Dave...I agree...said the same thing in my second post above.
Wonder how Thornton and any other past or current outfitters typically structure their lease agreements?
I have never leased and don’t ever plan to. I don’t believe a deer is worth anymore than what the tag costs. If I ever lose all the “free” ground that I am currently hunting, I will either find more or hunt public.
This story reminds on some I have dealt with. I have a friend that owns a few thousand acres in the Flint Hills. He had a group from Texas want to lease the deer hunting. They wanted the cattle removed from the property by a certain date. They wanted the grass left a certain height etc. I told them they were getting the rights to hunt deer, not manage his ranching operation. He told them to look somewhere else.
I have had standing permission to hunt turkeys, quail and fish for almost 40 years on the property. I have not ever ask to hunt deer. A few years ago I drove by one of the properties where I hunt turkeys and saw new "No Hunting" signs. I called him and ask if that area was off limits. He said he did not put up the signs and I was welcome to hunt turkeys there. He assumed the deer hunters had put them up. Another time I went to one of his pastures to fish a pond and saw purple signs on the fence posts. Again, I called him and the response was the same. I was welcome to fish and he knew nothing about the purple paint.
In visiting with his wife a few years later about another incident. Someone had actually called the sheriff on me for trespassing. I went to apologize if I had made a mistake. I was assured that I had permission to hunt where I was at. She said it seems to some people when they get permission on a property that they think they own it. She made it clear that she was not talking about me. She said I was always welcome on their property and to make sure there were no questions she went ahead and gave a written permission.
The bottom line is that there was no contract. TX somehow was convinced that the property would be left completely to his party's use. The landowner felt he only leased the right to hunt deer and other uses were still allowed. The real issue was not being to get his property. I don't feel sorry for your loss of your feeders. Remember this is not Texas.
Unfortunately we have people who just don't get it. Heck we had two KS residents on this thread wanting to do a group hug with ole "Tex". But all people can see are deer. Maybe those duck and quail hunters were leasing also. Upland and waterfowl seems to get pushed to the side by deer hunters and the KDWPT.
If you read the original post closely things don't add up for Tex. He said the contract stated that he had to have his equipment off the property on a certain date with his initial post. Then he said he signed nothing. So which is it? Sounds like he lost his lease for the upcoming season to me so now he is mad. Sounds like he knew when he had to get his gear out of there and failed to do so and now he is mad and wants to smear the landowner. Like I said there are 2 sides to every story.
"What I did wrong was one I didn't get a contract." Bingo
"and the last thing that i did wrong was that i didn't read in the contract that i didn't get where i was supposed to have everything off the farms buy jan 31 if i was not planning on getting back on the lease."
You didn't have a contract to read, and most obviously you didn't have a lease. You paid a trespass fee to be able to access/hunt the land during the 2019 season. Expecting to be able to go in to get your stuff in 2020, is like expecting to be able to use the motel pool over a month after you stayed there.
How you spend your money is 100% your business, you don't need to explain yourself on that. Don't know a lot of Kansas resident hunters that would pay that kind of fee to hunt here, perhaps putting your post on the national forum where other pay to play NR hunters would have seen it would have been better received.
Good points, seems something is not adding up. But I do think they should have been allowed to retrieve their property by paying a one day trespass fee. Never hurts to try and do the right thing. Sounds to me like a urination contest got started and the LO held the better hand and used it.
TX.....in your OP you say you killed out in Nov. Can you post pic. of that buck or doe? I want to know what a $7,500 deer looks like?
Crestedbutte- The first ranch I had was a family friend. No agreement was signed and no issues happened. It was a hilly property with no cropland. The southern hunters wanted something with crops and big patches of timber in river bottoms, so I gave it up. The 2nd ranch had a contract and the rancher consistently violated it. My business partner acquired a ranch 3x bigger in another part of the state so we simply walked away from it. Shortly after that I started prerequisites to nursing school and stopped guiding altogether. Best decision I ever made. Guiding took up too much time and I could not hunt with family and friends. Outfitting/leasing is a greed driven business that attempts to give the highest dollar exclusive hunting privileges. I worked for an outfitter one time that refused to give exclusive rights to a client with deep pockets. The client simply bought the entire ranch and promptly kicked the outfitter off.
I wonder if the other 7 got their stuff and "Tex" was late to the party or if all 8 lost all their gear? Unless Mr. Perkins gets on this thread, we will never know.
I've read through this and it sounds like some assumptions were made by both parties. Hard feeling for sure.
I'm curious; stands, sticks, cameras, feeders, ground blinds, ect could add up to several thousand. Is it truly not worth it to go get them? Also, doesn't a contract have to have signatures to be binding? If the leasee didnt sign a contract then can the guide really charge him for getting his equipment back? If I was this disgruntled I believe the last thing I would do is give him several grand worth of equipment...
So Outfitters are all greedy, so are ranchers...LOL. Called free market system driven by self-interest. Many would say all health care providers are greedy as well, taking $5K or more a week while people are dying.
Many here don't like NRs as they have driven up prices, availability etc. This poor TX guy gets slammed by nearly everyone. Do you have the same ethical standards in regards to whether people leasing their land should pay taxes on that income?
It was hinted above, might not have been a contract so as to avoid declaring the income. If, and it is a big if, the rancher seems to want it both ways IMO. Let the guys get their property and go separate ways.
Your wrong Habit. The state that someone is from has zero to do whether I like them or not. And I doubt it has anything to do with likability from anyone else. NR's have not driven up anything. NR hunting regulations have driven up prices, availabilty etc. It is not the fault of someone from Texas, Colorado, or Oklahoma but the fault of those who have created this management system. This "Poor TX Guy" came on and did the slamming. Then when he got question he tucked tail and ran. And yes I have the same standards for those leasing their land. You and I had this discussion on here over 10 years ago and I stated back then that leasing was bad for resident hunting and you said it wasn't. Who was right? Take a look at the data I posted from KDWPT and look at how resident hunter numbers are decreasing.
clipper,
The other side of your view is resident hunters wanted free reign, go wherever they wanted, basically a free lunch. Many never helped the LOs out, just showed up when it was hunting season. Guys like me that saw what was coming bought land and now experience first hand how people want a free ride.
Had a friend that we help each other on our properties tell me a couple of weeks ago his closest childhood friend just decided to get back into hunting after a several year hiatus. He called Mike to let him know, and tell Mike where to hang a stand for him for this fall. Never even offered to come out and help on the land. Nice discussion followed about exactly this topic and people thinking just because they know you they should be allowed to hunt.
I still do not believe leasing is bad. People should pay for what they value. NRs bring in tons of cash for conservation we would not otherwise have. From my perspective I wasn't wrong back then am still am not wrong. If you ask me will things change, yes and we must adapt.
I get tired of hearing guys complain about no place to hunt while they drive $70K pickups. All the guys I know who are nice and treat LOs by the Golden Rule still have places to hunt. Not trying to be confrontational, but it is just what I believe. I grew up in the big city and had zero contacts to be able to hunt even though it was in my blood. Gladly I would have forked over cash to be able to pursue game. I call leasing levelling the field for everyone. Thanks.
If you could answer me a couple of things about those dollars NR brought in for conservation. Where is it spent to benefit resident hunting and how has all those NR dollars changed hunting for the better comparing all hunting (upland, waterfowl, etc) pre and post 1995? What has the state done with all those NR deer hunting dollars to improve habitat and upland hunting? I have not seen any benefits from all this money from the 49,384 deer tags that NR purchased last year. Tell me what I am missing? Tell me where that $20 million plus from deer hunting alone last year benefited conservation?
Plenty of WHIA in KS from what I have read here. New shooting range in Hillsdale, new boat ramp etc. I guess we would need to look at the budget for more info.
The bigger concern to me is the antler craze seems to have driven most of this. I have been chided here just recently for shooting small deer, like that is something I am supposed to be ashamed of. Most guys would probably give up hunting if they could only kill does. Not me though. We are just as much a part of the problem.
I agree we have some folks in Topeka who our interests may not be aligned with theirs, but that has been the case since the beginning with regards to politics. I am nothing special, most of us can make the sacrifices if we really want to hunt. I am getting ready to head to my farm in a 2011 Tundra, base model, with over 175k miles on it. I would like to have a new truck, especially with a rear view camera to help hook my trailer with, but alas I can't afford it all.
The bottom line to all this is that when you mix dollars with hunting it is a despoiler of a great pasttime and a killer of ethics.
Dave,
You can say the same about any activity, including the oldest profession. Yesterday is never coming back, we have to adapt.
Urination Contest!!!. Good one Frank. Got a long lol on that one.
That philosophy will be the end of our favorite past time. The average age of a Kansas hunter will be over the age of 50 in a few years. Kansas residents make up less than 50% of the hunters in this state currently. And that gap is growing wider.
Just thinking back here, thinking back to the year 1986 when I moved to a new home North of Emporia about 5 miles. Found out that less than a half mile from me was some land that was perfect deer habitat. I asked around from some local folks about who owned the property. I found out who it was and where he lived. So, one fine day I drive over to the old gents house and knocked on the door, he came to the door and I told him who I was and that I had just built a house in the neighborhood. He said oh yea, I been watching the progress, come on in he said. Offered me a cup of coffee and a piece of pie his wife had just made, accepted and we set at the table and talked for over an hour about all things agricultural, he was a former rep for a feed company. Was like old home days and like we had known each other for years. Finally I get around to asking if I could bow hunt his property, just me and me alone. He deflated my hopes with a immediate NO, and rather sternly, I don't allow hunting. Well sheet, I think to myself! He then took me out to his shop and shows me all his wood working skills, spent about two hours with the man, then I finally left with a deflated heart. Months later, I had seen him and his son in law several times out splitting fire wood by hand, so one day I hook up the splitter and took it over to them and we split wood for several hours. About two months later he knocks on my door and I Invite him in. we had some coffee and when he said I think I'll let you bow hunt, just you and nobody else. I almost cried. I spent the next 12 years in a blissful hunting heaven and developed a very good friendship with this old man, spending many hours in the timber with him, cutting fire wood and splitting it up 50/50. Was some of the best hunting hours I spent in the woods. My point is I guess, is that you can not get this by paying people to hunt. You can not develop any kind of friendship by paying for it. If you think you are special to those you are paying, you are sorely mistaken. They want your money and that is it. Just makes me so damn mad, that what has happened to resident bow hunters in Kansas, with all this money floating around. And to top it off, a few years later, I couldn't hunt public lands anymore because of overcrowding by NR, Oh don't get me wrong, I could hunt it alright but with all the competition, it became fruitless. So when a NR comes onto a Kansas forum and complain about being treated badly , well that's tuff sheet, stay at home. I could never understand how people could pay to go to another state and deprive a local of a hunting opportunity, and sure enough, it soon got completely out of hand, and if you don't have the money, well to bad, so sad, was the thoughts of the lawmakers. As far as the commerce part of it goes, well, did we not get along alright before the big bucks/dollars boom? Adapt! Horse hocky! That is a cookies and cream point of view by those that have plenty of money, and/or land to hunt on. My grandson 18 years old, wanted me to take him bow hunting a couple of years ago where I use to hunt, I said son, forget it, to many hunters. it would be a waist of time as the grounds are overrun with hunters and most all of them are from other states. He couldn't understand how that could be. Long talk later, he said well looks like I will never get to bow hunt with you. So sad.
Your story is very familiar Chief. There are still a few people out there who have a soft spot for locals willing to “earn” a place to hunt through friendship and a willingness to roll up sleeves and work a little bit. I highlight “few”.
Dale,
Gave some thought about this overnight as I want to be sensitive to what many have experienced.
Robin and I were transferred here in 1983 from Detroit, MI where most of my hunting was limited to public or property the state leased from LOs.
Grew up in Cleveland, so coming here was the most rural type setting I had experienced. I was required to take HE and did right away. Listening to guys in the class talk about finding hunting places by knocking on doors, I started doing that in earnest the summer of '84. Ended up with over 3 square miles in Linn county, Sugar Valley area.
Helped all of them work their cattle or crops/chores. For twenty plus years two came up for a Christmas dinner the week before Christmas. Drove them when they needed it, first to get there chainsaw in hand after a storm to remove trees that fell on their fences in the woods.
Some have since passed, others are in assisted living and the properties are all sold. Any one could see it coming, and why we bought land in 2007. Now my hunting is basically limited to our 120 acres, which isn't nearly as fun as roaming 3 square miles. So I get it.
But I also am reading into some of what you posted, that you wanted exclusive rights to hunt a piece, and like the good old days where there was no competition.
Well, all of those people I grew up with in the city have grandkids, nephews, nieces etc. And some would like to take kids and have the same experiences you did, but they lack the connections to do so. So, they found a way, leasing, and both parties are satisfied, both parties being key. Handshakes don't pay bills.
I am always puzzled that such a conservative leaning state that believes in small government has so many people think government should provide them a place to hunt. I was born working class, read that as not much. I did factory work second shift in high school. Never been afraid to work. Hunting is not as great as it once was for me, but at least 5 different family members have come from out of state to hunt our farm. Three harvesting their first deer, one of those harvesting their first turkey.
If there is a will, there is away, yet no doubt it will be different. BTW, one of the LOs who passed the family asked me to be an honorary Pall bearer. After the funeral one of his cousins came up to me, handed his contact information and location and told me I was welcome to hunt his place. Evidently Bill liked me enough he told other family members. Like ksq32 pointed out, it still can be done.
Best wishes.
Funny I knocked on better than a 100 doors in 4 years and each year I picked up some private for nothing. I now have several spots to hunt and they amounts to thousands of acres. I don;t pay anything, just send a gift or two and spend time with each landowner when I come out. All these properties have family that hunt and I try not to step on anyone's toes and actually feel like part of the family on the biggest piece which is about 8000 acres. Funny thing is I only get to hunt on a couple hundred acres in each spot but I have killed 3 giant bucks in 4 years. I do agree that Kansas gives out way to many tags to NR's and would not mind if I only got to hunt once every 3 or 4 years but it is what it is right now anyway. Shawn
Exactly what I was talking about C. Leonard. You described it perfectly. "Several spots, thousands of acres", and one 8,000 acres" , sweeeeet. Just how in hell can you possible know or get to know the lay of the land of that much ground. Congrats you da man! You must have been the one just ahead of me knocking on doors. I think you really need some more. Why don't you come on down and take a spot of two on public while you are at it?
I think he only hunts a small part of those properties Chief. It’s the same for us in our family friend’s place in NC Kansas, they own several thousand acres, but a small amount of it is conducive to actually seeing a deer.
Still haven't had that thorn pulled out of your paw, Chief? Jump a guy you don't know...
Know what you mean about becoming close friends, Frank. I've done the eulogy for two landowners and will do a third, unfortunately. Helped several grandkids get started hunting, and it eventually decreased my access. Make the five-hour round-trip to sit with that same landowner as he gun hunts because he's slipping, a lot. It's the ranch where I get to bring Wounded Warriors, veterans, Pass It On kids but I've never asked to take a buck there. The landowner could cash a sizable check to lease all or part of that 4,000 acres. Having a place for me to take those mentioned is one reason he doesn't do it. That's impressive loyalty.
With one landowner I never missed an oncology appointment, during the five years from diagnosis to death. Was with him when he died on Christmas Eve and his widow on Christmas Day. They'd sold their land 2-3. years earlier. Friendship doesn't end when access does, with some of us.
Mike,
Good on you!
Not sure folks actually need to become as close of friends as you and others have become. Just a genuine respect for the LO, their property and their rules. Treat everything like it was your own.
We have all heard the stories of leaving gates open, not picking up trash, damaging fences going over them, scaring cattle with ATVs etc.
Amazes me how often people that should know better do things they shouldn't ought of laziness or just not caring for another.
That Golden Rule...
Frank... that’s right. At the very least I always do the following before I plan to go out to hunt properties I have permission for:
1. Call landowner ahead of time to let’em know I’ll be out there. If they don’t answer I leave message.
2. Always ask if there is there anything I can help him with while I am out there?
3. Always ask is there any particular pasture or section I should stay out of or not drive in?
4. Call and let him no I am done hunting and have left.
In my opinion, the 4 most important aspects of communication with landowner...especially when given “free” access.
Listen in the part of Kansas I hunt there may be 500 to 600 acres of whitetails huntable land on 8 thousand acres. I hunt only a small portion of those properties. Also unless you don't have a brain in your head it is called Google Earth. You can use it to pretty much scout and find likely set up areas and eliminate a lot of boots on the ground. It ain't rocket science. I will say this and guys get mad but put me in the Midwest living there full time and I would do very well, now take some of these same folks and put them here in NY on properties I hunt like 130 acres surround by 25 other guys on the border properties and see how they do. Some like KS and Kyle and Micheal would do well I think, others not so much. I don't understand how guys can bitch about other guys getting land to hunt. I work my ass of gaining permission and than when it comes to hunting I doubt many out do me. I guess my point is instead of complaining, get out and try harder!! I will be back to Kansas next year and sorry or not I will knock on a quite a few doors cause ya never know when you can lose a spot and it's best to have back up!! Shawn
Shawn also, didn't it help when you gained the trust, and friendship, of that one prominent local family? The one with a sister that lives near you?
The second door always opens a lot easier than the first one. I got access to a great property this year when my cousin asked me to take her grandson waterfowl hunting on her pond. Nobody had been allowed to hunt there for years, including relatives.
We got along wonderfully and we the grandson can't go, my cousin lets me. Also learned his other grandparents own 420 acres of prime hardwoods and croplands where I got him started turkey hunting and will help him get his first deer with a bow. They offered to let me hunt turkeys there before I even asked. Then, it comes out that the grandmother on that side is from one of the most respected farming families in that part of the county.
Word spreads quickly and kindness usually results in kindness.
Shawn, The big deer are where you find them on those 8000 acres. Even if doesn't seem huntable. This buck lived out in the short grass. Miles and miles and miles of cow pasture. Spot and stalk 15' stalk. My son had spotted a deer with horns about a mile away during muzzleloader season. We snuck over and Kody killed a nice ten. This guy got up and took off at the shot. Found him in the same area two months later.
Hey you guys know landowners read this right? I mean there are like 5 posts on this one thread that landowners are probably tax cheats.. Gotta say I'd not be inclined to talk to someone that thinks landowners are probably tax cheats about letting them hunt.... Not helping yourselves here....
PS can't speak for everyone of course but I do verbal deals for expediency reasons not tax cheat reasons... Personally, the IRS has never once asked me to produce a lease copy.... Always report my revenue either way, any small savings would not be worth the risk or worry....
sun,
good point, thanks for your honesty. I won't be leasing but do believe to "give Caesar what is Caesar's".
It does cross the mind of landowners I'm sure. One of the reasons we exchanged crop ground rights for hunting rights several years ago, no money exchanged hands. Of course it was such a small mount of monetary value, it would have mattered little anyway. Amounted to about $200.
I haven't been on here for awhile but ya'll crack me up....I guess I've been lucky so far cause most of the Kansas landowners I have met seem to be honest and nice men. But why all the bashing and hating on non-residents.....I do get it a little I guess but how is it our fault that Kansas has big deer. And when these hard working Kansas landowners put an ad up saying they want some money from someone to take one of these magnificent.....what are we supposed to do...turn them down and say no cause we heard your neighbor wants that right by falling a tree for you. Some of these landowners need a little extra money and a split log doesn't give them much. I wish just like anybody else the good old days was back when hunting was cheap but you just got to go with the flow.
What has never made sense to be is that leasing your ground for crops, grazing rights, mineral rights, cell towers etc. is fine, but for hunting it is evil.
That's right....some of them have worked really hard to gain ownership and continue to pour out their sweat and blood to work and maintain their land....in my opinion they have the right to do whatever they want.
Calhoun, come on, spend your money, just leave TX hunting practices in TX.
Lol don't know what you mean by practices....I guess I'm not your typical texas hunter that drives a truck with monster wheels and carrying ATVs in their trailers. Just a meek and humble bowhunter that likes to walk in and pull my deer out on my little cart....that is if I get lucky enough to see an old one. I do cheat though I guess.....cause I have a rangefinder, site pins on my bow, a release, and a bow that shoots really fast. Sometimes I do feel like I'm taking advantage of these deer when I'm in the branches of a tree or tucked under a cedar tree on the ground. Nothing personal but I got to work really hard to take care of my family and have enough money to hunt up there but I'm truly blessed though to have that opportunity. I just can't seem to find the time like ya'll Kansas folks to make your own bows out of limbs and whittle out your arrows....or maybe have the time to sit on a limb and jump on top of them and stab them with a knife or spear them even like real hunters. Please have patience with me though cause I'm a work in progress and maybe one day I can become a real hunter like ya'll.
How did I know he was from Texas? Actually, my money was on Louisiana, but Texas is gaining ground fast around us. How many times do we have to say it, we don’t blame anybody for coming and spending RIDICULOUS amounts of money for a deer; it’s the people in Topeka who tick me off.
Lol I don't know anybody in Topeka.
Good grief bud, talking about politicians. They are the reason deer hunting in Kansas is slowly circling the drain.
The Texans have leased almost everything around the ranch I hunt antelope on every year in NM. 2 years ago, they bought out the whole motel we were in.
I think what Dave meant about Texas hunting is baiting. A lot of guys here use compounds, releases, range finders etc.
Hope I didn't offend anybody then....I just implied that for myself with todays modern equipment they put on bows I don't feel like I'm a true hunter....no better than anybody using a gun, crossbow, or anything else. I kind of do admire the ones that hunt with a recurve....that's got be pretty exciting probably. Oh I didn't realize Texas was known for feeding them....I know pretty much everybody does down here including me. I hunted Missouri for around 20 years and they don't allow feeding during hunting season...I do admit I had a whole lot of fun hunting that way. Less stress too worrying about putting out corn and all.....Lol used to laugh though cause they wouldn't let you feed corn but they would allow you to find a trail coming into a corn field and hunt beside it. Lol I was hunting sometimes the biggest corn pile ever....more than anybody could put out anyways.
Calhoun give it some time they are a little tough on non residents here. Most are cool and warm up. Some are dicks forever. You will figure that out.
Michael yes, lives about 9 miles from me. I also attended football games with the family, went out to eat with them and always tried to pay the bill. Just good friendly folks and it is all about how you approach them. Shawn
All good Calhoun. I’m no boarder whore. I’m with you I love hunting Kansas and am very blessed to have some great ground.
whats wrong with people from louisiana?
Popeyes Chicken^ Just kidding Cgoods. Listen Non Residents, most resident hunters I know feel like they have been $Hit on by the state. A lot of hunters were able to hunt 15-20 miles from their home Max and now it's more like 2-3 drive to find a spot. Non Residents it's not your fault, nor is it your money. If was really about the money there would not be so many exemptions to guides and sales taxes being collected (Currently no sales tax is collected on guided services or leases due to it being exempt). Yes the state comes up with alot of revenue from sales of our deer permits yet the residents do not see the benefits of that money only the casualties from it. In the end we all love hunting Kansas and we as hunters want it all to be the best it can be. Kansas is decades behind in most other high traveled to states. Hopefully a new model will sometime be put in place for all hunters in all states. For instance Colorado's point creep issue. If I was a resident there I would demand 2 preference points awarded to residents and 1 to non Residents. Residents of any state want to see an advantage in hunting their own state. From all the states I have hunted there are bits and pieces that work and some that don't work as well. Everybody stay safe and enjoy your Adventures wherever they may lead you.
Matte do you think there will be a time in the future where NR tags will top Resident tags? Say maybe 10-15 years down the road? Based off of 2018-2019 harvest reports, 38% of total deer tags were sold to non residents and that gap seems to be narrowing each year. As far as just hunting license sales, NR are already buying more than Residents. I can see that happening with deer hunting as well. Kansas deer hunters are seriously declining while non residents are increasing.
Matte, good post.
Clipper, 15 years down the road I wonder how many will still have an interest in deer hunting, or even hunting in general.
I will til the day the bury me. Fred's urn will be going in the ground with me.
Great looking lab. nice harvest!
Buddy just came back from the vet after being fixed. It is sad to see him so lethargic.
Keep them both hunting!
We put Fred down last August. Worst day of my life. I will never get over it nor do I want to. He was 91 lbs with ribs showing and could out hunt any dog alive.
Sorry, been there, done that. It is painful! I am sure you have heard the best medicine is a new pup, when you are ready. That's what we did. Best wishes.
Maybe this summer. Still have my little female.
I have never shot a pheasant....but here in the near future I want to go try for them. I see quite a few while deer hunting up there and I think they are one of the most beautiful birds out there. We got a german shorthaired pup coming to us in another month or so...hopefully I can learn enough to train her right.....can't wait to get her home with us.
Follow a good training program. Don't take bits and pieces from different trainers or programs. Choose one that will meet your goals and stick with it. Introduce and condition her to gunfire the correct way. If you need any help in doing so send me a pm. And get a pigeon trap.
I really appreciate that and yes I might get with you one day....the guy I'm buying her from did say introducing her to gunfire the right way was very important. One of the small things he does as they're pups is to bang pots and pans together or make some loud noise as they are eating....claims that starts teaching them loud noise is a good thing. Lol and what is a pigeon trap.... sorry don't know much when it comes to bird hunting talk.
You will want one of these $32. And shoot the acorn crimps only. Do not use a starter pistol shooting blanks.
Yes I will definitely get one of these...Lol I can tell real quick that there is a whole lot of information that I need to learn about this. First I want to teach her how to shed hunt and be a blood trail dog in case I ever need her for that. I thought maybe next year I might start introducing her to bird hunting....you think that's about right or do I need to start earlier with her with the birds?
Pigeon Trap. I have one on top of the coop but I won't go up and get it. I just have a friend that works there that sets it for me when I need a bird.
Yep... be getting one of those too....now I just need to know what I need to do with the pigeons. I'm not asking that question on here though cause I'm going to stop before I embarrass myself... thanks for the info though.
You can’t go wrong with a Delmar Smith training book. Used his methods to train my Weimaraner myself back in late 90’s. Turned into an outstanding upland bird and waterfowl dog.
I too used the starter pistol associated with feeding time. One thing I did when first introducing him to live gunfire is I put him on a lead a long way off from some of my buddies who were shooting clay pigeons. I slowly and methodically worked him closer and closer. It took about 45min-1hr to complete. At first the gunfire sounded like faint pops in the distance. When we eventually made it to the shooters he was running around with not a care in the world. Good Luck!
Matte - seems like NM takes pretty good care of their residents. Outfitters get 10-percent of the permits, non-residents get 6% and the rest go to residents. Keep in mind, most of their hunting is on federally-owned land, too.
good idea Jason....that makes sense and I can see where that would work.
Writer we had the tone of this thread going in the right direction talking dogs and upland hunting. Don't get us off track again. Basketball and Pheasants are the best part of this forum.
I know right....Baylor and Kansas was going at it. I do have to admit though that Kansas had the little bit better team this past season. Too bad it had to end short
KU sucks, Baylor blows, LA is only good for mudbugs, and Richard Wolters dog training books are the best.
Anything else you want to know?
Sito I have a Richard Wolters video I can loan you!!!!!! College sports are in a pickle with the new G League rule. They will have a hard time signing top 50 recruits for basketball now and college football will probably see the one and done.
"One and Done"?
You mean like KSU's first football game of the season?
Writer I definitely like New Mexico with the 10%.
1. State needs smaller units to better manage the big game in those units and hunting pressure. As points build up in certain areas, leasing may be decreased. 2. Mule deer need to be drawn for no matter the weapon. If they can do it for a Turkey they need to do it for the Mule Deer. 3. A designed plan for outfitters in a true business model. Permits, licenses, facilities and sales tax remittance on all hunts and leases just like all other state businesses. Max the percentage of Outfitters and acreage leases per permit. 4. In the spirit of giving the animal a sporting chance in the game of fair chase turn off the cellular trail cams after the season starts. 5. Baiting it will take awhile to change as it has been the norm for 20+ years now but it does need to be addressed.
I would love to find a way to bring non Residents and residents together. I have met tons of great people coming to Kansas and hunted with others as the outsider outside of Kansas. Just an idea don't kill me on this but what about host a non resident earn a second buck tag. Of course you would have to mitigate how that tag would be distributed. Maybe you have to have the Non Resident with his proper tag with you to get issued a second tag at a KDWPT office or courthouse. Just an idea on how to bring the two parties together instead of tearing us hunters apart.
I've hosted several NR's they ain't so bad...but we don't need to turn this into a situation like Oklahoma, I mean have you seen their teeth?
You hit the nail, but not hard enough Matt...outlaw baiting and they will stop coming cause they cain't kill nothin w/o it.
Kyle. let me come every year!! I won't bait and my teeth are pretty good and I bet you I will do OK!! Can someone tell me the actual number of NR permits they allow for deer hunting. I did a search and cannot find it. Shawn
If I read the number right it was at 25,000 either sex tags last year. I don’t think that includes non-res landowners, so it’s likely a little more than that. Double that if including the doe tag that comes with it.
Scoob here is the harvest report from 2018-2019. You can see all NR tags. Best answer you are going to get.
So I don't know you Sito…. so what college you like? Don't judge everybody on the bait thing cause Kansas could outlaw baiting, decoying, wearing camouflage, compound bows, scent control, and even stands and you would still find me in Kansas having the time of my life going after this inspiring animal.
No, it's true "Calhoun Calhoun"...we haven't formally met, who sent ya?
Kidding, now go write us a poem about "inspiration".
EMAW
Lol nobody sent me but since I started hunting Kansas 3 yrs ago I have loved it and so I thought I would check this forum out to see what its about....I thought I would find hunters all sharing stories and good times. But instead I find a lot of whining and underneath it seems like there is some people on here that want to brag on how the animal is taken. Lol ya'll are really confusing sometimes cause ya'll talk about something that's gives a human an advantage and downgrade but go to these other extreme measures to give ya'll a lot better chance of making the kill. Wildcat fan huh....they're alright. I used to love the old coach and found myself going for the football team when they wasn't playing us....great fans too.
Bait is like Tp. Once one guy has to have it so do all the rest. It leaves some shelves stocked and others empty. Take that need away and all shelves will be a little more equal this giving everyone an equal chance to get some.
Lol alright Matte....that was a good one....I like it
And I will say that I'm no person to judge cause all those years I hunted Missouri I started talking and making fun of the hunters that used corn some...I really did have a better time hunting without it. I try hard not to judge anymore cause I could kill a deer by jumping out of a tree and strangling it and I still haven't accomplished anything. I will say that I thought about stop baiting in Kansas cause an official up there told me that could spread CWD faster...I've since talked to other people that say otherwise. Still on the fence about that. Lol but to stop putting out corn cause of some people wanting to judge my hunting abilities.....tough luck on that one. And by the way I've been passing them instead of shooting them...only have shot one buck up there.
Lol that's where it's at....with no turkey decoys
Matt- see your points. Don’t agree with all of them but understand your thoughts. Agree on the mule deer. History is not on our side. Hopefully the new study will help. Not sure if the push to again sell “mule deer doe tags” in Unit 1 was stopped or not. Don’t think many people were speaking against it.
Thats terrible I did not realize it was 40 thousand plus. Limit it to 10,000 and have a real draw with a point system. No wonder the public is over run!! Shawn
Been saying it on here for years. 38% of tags go to NR's. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but when they implemented this in 1995, wasn't it only 1500 tags? Well over $10 million for just the draw now. That doesn't include the NR landowner tags, etc. And like Habitat said, for all that we got a boat ramp.
Yeah the units I hunt I think they seem to give out a little too many tags for NR's. But that again is just me looking at the square miles of the units and trying to figure how much of that is huntable and how many of the residents are hunting. In those units though the deer numbers seem to be solid and the deer pressure not to bad and bucks are getting age on them. I was just there during gun season one time the first year when I took my boy there for the first three days so maybe that area gets pounded pretty hard during rifle season. That I don't know and sure can't say about any other units.
Jeff,
Where did the funding for the mule deer and other studies come from? I hear we need more COs and other stuff, it takes money as you know. Haven't some parks had upgrades?
I am all for a big increase in R fees to reduce the dependence on NRs but we know that is not popular. It's still a great state to hunt in, and guys are getting it done on public and WIHA.
I have no idea where the funding came from or how much money was spent. Do you? Parks had upgrades long before 1995 and WIHA acres have been about the same for 15 years. This isn't the high country. We have a road every mile in KS and that is hard on mule deer. It didn't take long to address the turkey issue yet mule deer have be declining since the 80's. We have a total of 500 tags available to hunt turkeys in Unit 4 and cut out game tags for certain units, so do we really need a study to implement something similar for mule deer? Should it take 40 years to figure it out?
I like Scooby and as a NR he sees the writing on the wall. Too many NR tags. I wish we were still pre 1995 but I know that isn't possible. We should have non residents hunting here but not purchasing 38% of the tags. That number will never go down only up. It will be 50-50 in a few years. We won't have any young resident hunters. When I began teaching years ago, it seemed like most of the students hunted. Opening day of rifle season, we had a lot of kids absent. Now, none.
I believe most everybody in every state wishes it was pre 1995....I know here it used to be a lot more room to hunt as well. We had horses and if I remember right part of one our places to hunt was in part trading off a stud fee but slowly it got worse with more hunters and more money....Just a thought cause I have soft spot for kids hunting as I have 2 sons and one that likes to hunt. Here its really really hard to find a spot for us to hunt....in fact not taking in the little bit of acreage right behind the house I own we have to travel over 4 hours to hunt a place in our state. In some cases Kansas opens up a spot for a kid out of state to hunt....I know ya'll felt the biggest change cause with all that land and very few residents it was a deer heaven up there. But another quick thought is some of these kids have gotten away from hunting in some cases because of two words....phone and I thinks its called an Xbox.
Kids don't really take themselves hunting, parents do. And the parents have lost access and don't hunt themselves. That's the problem. My kids had phones and xbox but they also had a mentor who would find access and had a passion for it. Most adults don't have the passion that KS Bowsite members do. They don't view it the same as we do so we have to look at from their perspective. It's not easy so they don't do it. Millennial's are a different beast and view things differently.
As a kid, I roamed every where. Me and my good buddy would go up to the grocery store and fill a gunny sack up with candy and pop and take off fishing or stomping through the woods. I remember doing this several days a week and most of the summer around age 8 and through high school (of course in high school I did not have a gunny sack). We went every where and hit every pond. Covered several miles a day. We built forts, hide outs, etc. Great living in rural Kansas through the 70's. We learned about deer, fish, quail, etc. No landowner cared, matter of fact, they encouraged it. Nothing was posted, no keep out signs, no purple paint. Would you grant kids the same opportunity to run wild over your property today? To learn on their own exploring and experiencing nature? Would you allow them to pose in front of your trail cam or to check out your feeder? Would today's out of state leaser give kids that opportunity? Opportunities are still out there today to get kids involved, but only for the dozen or so people who post on this site. The rest are not like us.
Jeff,
Received your pm, thanks. I guess I did not realize it changed that much. I had not talked with anyone at KDWPT about it in a long time.
I agree, it is a problem. Nothing to offer that hasn't already been said by others. Thanks for trying with your family and your students. Best wishes.
Jeff you explained my childhood and it sounds like we grew up pretty much the same way....my son though likes to hunt but I can tell he doesn't quite have the passion and loves it like I do. In which that's okay but I always encourage them to get out in the outdoors. I'm ate up with it and seems to get worse as I get older....Lol but its good to know that are a dozen or so up there in Kansas that's got more passion than I do....just take in account Kansas is a part of this country and there is also kids outside of Kansas.
Oh I forgot to answer some of your questions but yes Jeff I don't even know you but you and your kids are welcome to come and visit us....I have some land in back they can roam around on and down the road I have some river frontage...They would have a great time I think on the river fishing and exploring. and Jeff deep down I think you're a pretty good guy cause you offered to give me some pointers on raising my little pup. Maybe me and you can get together sometime and I'll take you pheasant hunting up there on the property I bought....it's loaded with pheasant and I'm pretty sure you would love it and I sure could use some tips on bird hunting.
Not just an access issue, because youth participation is down in states with tons of public ground. It is, probably the #2 complaint I hear from adults in Kansas, especially us geezers who remember when it was so easy. A lot of the places we used to access have changed hands because of sale, death of the owner and/or both.
Frank, the mule deer study had funds coming from several areas. The largest, was fed P &R funding, from excise taxes on hunting and shooting gear. No, it can't go to pay game wardens. It can only go to hunting or target shooting related causes. Normally the state ponies up everything, and the feds reimburse 75 percent. Same with WIHA. Many landowners and hunters have been saying the mule deer population is going the wrong way for several years. One top biologist didn't seem to believe them based on fall counts. Hence, the study.
Drought and CWD haven't helped the mule deer population, especially in NW Kansas. They're a lot slower to recover than whitetails, but even they're not bouncing back nearly as fast in NW Kansas.
Some changes have been made with mule deer. Permits have been lowered, especially in the eastern zone. Of course, mule deer are few and far between there. KDWP also stopped the "mule deer doe tag" several years ago. They had it planned, but some key landowners and concerned sportsmen bought the tags and turned them back in to the commission, saying they'd keep doing it and knew numbers were hurting. Commissioners listened and requested the tags end.
There is a lot of concern, amid many hunters and landowners, about OTC muzzleloader permits that allow mule deer be taken. Some have drawn firearms permits that allow mule deer in consecutive years, or at least every-other year.
Calhoun my kids are grown now and left the nest years ago. Love to hunt pheasants and would be willing to help you out with your dog. A friend of my grandads and a friend and mentor to me wrote a terrific book on training pointing dogs about 35 years ago. He was about the best bird dog trainer in the country during the 50's and 60's and bred and trained the most famous setter of all time. I will see if I can PM you a link to the book. It would help you tremendously with your dog.
