Non Resident Perspective
Kansas
I am a NR and have been coming to bowhunt in NE Kansas on and off since 2012. I have actually only missed 2016 and 2019 (we were unsuccessful in the draw). We should draw this year since our group all had a PP. I really hope we can come and hunt this November. Over the course of '12, '13, '14, '15, '17, and '18, I have shot 4 bucks (found 3 and lost 1). So I could have come home with a buck 4/6 years or 66.67% of the time (pretty dang good odds IMO).
Anyways, in my limited time of hunting there, the number one thing that jumps out to me, as to why the quality of deer hunting has diminished, has nothing to do with non residents. Actually opposite. It's the residents in the area I hunt that have seemed to "worsen" the quality of the hunting. The reason behind this, IMO, is the legalization of crossbows. Since crossguns have been allowed in archery season, it has transitioned A LOT of rifle only hunters into archery season. This obviously has a ripple effect into archery season for the rest of us. There are more people hunting during archery season and therefor more deer are being killed. Also, because more people are hunting, more available land is being hunted. So pieces of public and WIHA that were never touched until gun season, are now hunted during the rut during archery season. When I first started coming to KS, the only trucks that would be parked at WIHA were NRs. Now, I would say its about 50/50 NRs to residents. Also, residents that would gun hunt properties after NR archery hunters left for the year, are now leasing ground of their own because they have the ability to hunt the entire deer season with their crossbow. Again, this is only my opinion and my observations....but the amount of locals that hunt during archery season (around us anyway) has increased exponentially since the legalization of crossbows. Below are some of my other opinions as to why the deer hunting quality has decreased....
- Horrible EHD in 2012, and sporadically since then - Tons of cover/draws/CRP taken out and turned into row crops - Increase of people hunting the rut which increases the odds of shooting a buck - NRs being able to shoot a buck and a doe (our group NEVER shoots does there) - Leasing of ground by NRs, residents, and outfitters alike - The State starting to pay substantial $$ to LO's to put their ground into WIHA - Nothing new here, but poaching still seems like its a major issue, especially closer to the NE border
The list could go on and on. I still enjoy coming and hunting in KS. There's just something about a cold, frosty November morning in NE KS knowing that a WR could step out at any moment. I don't come to Kansas to see TONS of deer, but the "right" deer. These are just my opinions and I hope I don't start a debate. I appreciate the opportunity to hunt Kansas and do not take it for granted. We have made tons of friends over the years and really enjoy our 10 days a year in Whitetail Heaven.
Connect the dots. You are seeing more residents because the nonresidents leased or bought everything. Since you obviously don't live here, you haven't seen the scores of bowhunters that have been present for a decade on public properties you suppose "weren't touched til' gun season." I own land near a 10,000 acre wildlife area and I live near a 6,000 acre wildlife area/lake along with a few WIHAs in between. The numbers of NR bowhunters have probably tripled on these areas since I was a kid.
Not burned at the stake,,,,,,,,just neutered!!!!!!
I love Kansas hunting and have absolutely nothing to complain about. Still as good and exciting as the first day I started.
lol dang you got them going them going again. Anybody that thinks they are better than someone else by using a fake deer to work off a deer's hormones to trick them into coming in closer only to shoot them ought to be bitc**ed slapped with an empty bag of corn.
Michigan man....nice observations and insights. Can’t say that I disagree with a single one. About the only thing that wasn’t clarified was what type of ground you are hunting “this year” if drawn....WIHA/public or private? If private, is your group leasing?
Good luck on the upcoming deer draw.
Pretty good observations, as has been said there’s a little more to it. Leasing wasn’t prevalent at all until the non-res numbers began to grow exponentially. That along with crossguns, as you said, has had a big impact. There is some good hunting to be had, it is either very expensive (we bought a small farm; in part, so we could enjoy quality hunting), or the hunter has to work very hard to get out in front of the masses, even while knowing the chances of shooting a true trophy on public are slim and getting slimmer.
Can’t use corn on public Calhoun. I think the original poster was talking about public hunting.
lol I wasn't talking about the original poster...I'm fairly new to this site but I've went back and read some of the old postings to know how most of ya'll feel about certain things. and it's all good....just got to pop in some words sometimes.
Calhoun where you hunting this year if you draw?
All of this so called hunting conversation explains the problem, its all about money and tyeing up ground. Y'all just keep claiming in here and locking out us that built this herd.
Lol what would you do Dave if you was in our position? I know for a fact that it's very hard to find a place here to hunt as well.
Again Gents, not really interested in a debate....and I was speaking of my experiences from 2012 to present. Prior to 2012, I knew absolutely nothing about hunting in Kansas.
I can tell you that Michigan and Kansas are very different in terms of leasing ground. My family has been leasing hunting ground in Michigan for 35+ years and the responses I see on this site make it seem like leasing is new to KS. And I can tell you that the $$ amount to lease land in Michigan isn't that far off KS prices and in some instances a lot more expensive....and most of the state doesn't have the potential to have the opportunity to kill a buck the size of one you can kill in Kansas. AND a ton of the state is divided into small 10, 20, 30, 40 acre parcels.
As far as the land we hunt in Kansas, it has always been roughly 50% WIHA/50% Private. Sometimes we have gotten permission on farms and sometimes we have thrown the LO some money to hunt his/her ground for 10 days a year. We didn't draw last year so we lost some permission on some property we have gained over the years. I am trying to find a lease currently, but it has been difficult so far. I can tell you, that we will hunt WIHA before paying $20 an acre to hunt private. Nothing against guys who have the funds to do so, but we are not included in that group.
And, Thornton, I agree with you as to why I see more KS residents on WIHA now than we did in the past....however, I don't necessarily think its a bad thing. We can't be pro-hunting and then get upset when more people get into the sport.
I can tell you that since I started hunting there in 2012, the hunting seems to gradually "worsen" each year. Take that with a grain of salt as I would hunt the worst of days in Kansas in November than on my best days in MI. I've already stated my opinion as to why I think this is. But I can also tell you that it hasn't deterred me from applying moat years. There's just something about it. Kind of like going on vacation to Florida, California, Hawaii....its amazing and you have a blast for those 10 days, but if you lived in those areas, it would lose some of it's luster.
Thanks for the responses so far.
So..."Still a B" is stalking us from TX?
I hunt WIHA and public quite a bit when my farm runs dry or the "squatters" are camped out on my permissions. I hunt public exclusively when I go out West now to CO and probably Idaho this year. Many times private is just as pressured as public and the deer and elk don't know the difference. I've shot my biggest whitetail, mulie, elk and turkeys on public anyway. If you're the type that gets mad and leaves when you encounter another hunter, then maybe you should just stay home and watch hunting shows I always say.
Lol yeah I'm your huckleberry
Lol that's kind of what you look like in your little videos with your decoys....on a serious note though try turkey hunting without decoys. In your words it makes the hunt so much better.
You got me, uncle. Now will you leave and go to your state forum, where someone might care for you?
Aw come on Sito...I was just funning. It looks like I'm stuck in Kansas now but I just want to tell you I do admire the way you hunt. Me and my son have shot many deer without baiting and some with baiting. I do agree baiting seems to make it easier...it's just when you go hard on someone it makes me want to take up for them. It's all good and you do hunt the right way.
No doubt a lot of what the OP has observed is true from his perspective. I personally think the decline of the KS trophy herd is directly due to the micro management of properties through leasing and outfitting, the State changing it's practices in relation to herd management, and "cleaner" farming and ranching practices (lots more spraying=less forbs in tillable ground and grasslands, and better crop harvesting equipment leaves less seed on the ground post harvest).
Crossbow inclusion -
My personal observations... first 2 years lots of rifle hunters bought one, didn't like it as death by blood loss is much different than death by shock. The one's who I know that did happen to get close enough to shoot at a deer either missed or never found it if they did hit it. Many returned to rifle in a short time.
I believe the next big crossover was from compound hunters. Most compound shooters are constantly looking for more shot distance; releases, better arrows, broadheads that fly like field points, faster speed, etc. It's a never ending crusade of buying a new bow every two years and better accessories as soon as they are released. The crossbow promises that extra yardage and is awfully tempting for many.
Another crossbow caveat related to State regulations; minimum age requirement and youth seasons. Dropping the age requirement created a situation where kids were allow to legally hunt before they were physically or emotionally mature enough to draw a bow on an animal and make a clean shot. Soooo, dad buys a crossbow and throws his young kid into a box blind in Sept to shoot a deer with a rest and a trigger pull. Results are that the kid's first usable weapon is a crossbow and it remains his weapon for many years (until he/she is physically mature enough to draw, but why change after several years?). This is the stage I think we are at right now and why crossbows will probably become the dominant archery weapon soon. For a person brought up compound hunting there is a stigma to using a crossbow... it's the "easy button". For the person brought up with a crossbow there is no stigma... the easy button to them is a rifle.
Anyway, I've lived in KS for a long time and have been bowhunting here for over 30 years. I've watched a lot change since the 80's. These are just my ideas of why the changes have happened.
I would just say get ready for some big changes. Some of my observations and opinions.
#1 Residents were behind the ball when it came to the leasing game. Now every guy I know locally is looking for a lease and leasing ground.
#2 Boomers are retiring out of farming as they age out and their kids inherit the land things will change. I know of a great piece of WIHA that will be getting pulled and leased to local instead.
#3 All technologies have led to decrease in mature deer sightings of trophy caliber. From bait to cellular game cams, crossbows to ozone generators. They all give us the hunter better than normal odds.
#4 Muzzle loaders, there technology is amazing compared to 20 years ago and I see more locals who know the animals in their areas killing with a Muzzle loader early to make sure and get that deer they want.
#5 A hard one for me to post about but the no age limit and kids hunting is taking more and more deer out of the woods. Numerous videos of 3,4,5,6 year olds killing bucks does take a toll over the years. My kids all started around 8 years of age, if I could go back in time I would have made them wait till 12-14 years of age. Not because they were not ready but to instill a deeper drive to do something they couldn't.
#6 Poaching lots of poaching by all parties. Locals pissed at non residents killing deer why they are not there and non residents pissed they couldn't find a deer legally not wanting to go home with nothing after all that money was spent.
Too many buck tags available, bottom line. Whether it is resident of non resident. You have almost as many non residents killing bucks today versus resident gun hunters pre 1995. Combine that with the equipment we have today plus crossbows and you have a recipe for disaster. When Kansas dropped the resident draw during gun season and began the circus of non resident tags, quality dropped. Then you toss in crossbows and a muzzle loader season, and you are killing way to many bucks.
The Any Season Tag=No Tag Soup. There was a time, when many resident bow hunters did not harvest a buck. Much easier with a bow having an IBO of 345 shooting a peep sight, 7 pin sight, a release, a range finder, etc. Versus a Bear Flare II shooting fingers and a 1 pin sight or a recurve or longbow. And if you are a poor enough hunter that you can not get the job done with the 345 IBO bow we will let you hunt during gun season with a rifle. If you are going to have the Any Season Tag at least it should convert to antlerless only. The any season tag and crossbow inclusion puts way too many hunters in the woods during the rut when bucks are more vulnerable. Kansas made it too easy to harvest a buck with today's equipment.
In my opinion we had more poaching years ago than today. Everyone is out monitoring their property today. The age limit is not a hard one for me, not having the cut off at 12 is asinine. Ridiculous to have kindergartners killing deer. I teach these kids every day and understand their capabilities. Elementary age children should not be hunting big game. Study the harvest graph I have posted, it will tell you everything you need to know. Especially the rapid increase of crossbow harvest. Study it fellows.
There are some darn accurate observations and thoughts on here.
Great points here the crossbows really hurt, but that early muzzleloader is a killer too. I don't know the numbers, but bachelor groups still hanging out and patterning them can't help. Also age structure is probably hurting cause I know as a NR a lot of these 115-130 inch deer look mighty good to a lot of guys that at home is a huge buck. Also a lot of NR's figure I paid the money so I mind as well go home with a buck, any buck. It's a shame it's come to that! Shawn
Yeah not trying to offend anybody cause people can do what they want but I don't quite understand going through the trouble of getting drawn and paying all that money on traveling just to shoot an 130-150 buck..or should I say immature deer. Wasn't in Kansas then but my landowner said Kansas had a very nasty drought like around 2013 and 2014...maybe that could be playing a part in why there as not as many deer in the 5 to 6 yr old this past season as well.
Happens all the time Calhoun. There was a group of hunters from Michigan rifle hunting in our unit in SEK last year. Our farm borders a small chunk of WIHA that they hunted along with some state owned ground farther north in the unit. Of the seven hunters, five had tagged out to that point, there was one day left of season. Not one buck would have grossed over 140", not that score is always an indicator of age; but when he showed me the pics on his phone, it was clear there were a number of immature deer. To top it off, one of their guys shot a buck that night and they were waiting to go track it. It came off our land, so I told them I'd stick around a while in case it made it back to our place; I won't let anyone walk our ground without me. All he could say about the buck was, "it was outside it's ears". My own daughter had shot a buck that night on our place and she hit him a little back, so we weren't in any hurry to go anywhere. When they got back to the vehicles they were towing a 1 year old fork horn. I was speechless when I walked up to them, not having seen the deer yet; I literally didn't know what to say when they stepped aside to show me. One of his fellow hunters was still ribbing him some. I congratulated him and bid them farewell. A week earlier I helped a hunter and his daughter from Wisconsin drag out her buck, I believe a 2 year old buck that had a lot of webbed mass on one side and could have possibly turned into something really special in a few years -- we had a few pictures of him throughout the summer. So are the joys of owning land next to public access. On the plus side, when the numbers really stack up on the public, they push most of the mature bucks to the neighbors, including us.
James I don't like hearing stories like that. I feel bad for you and you're a good man for still hunting there. I think I would have to look for a different place to hunt.
We own it Calhoun, I don't think I'm going anywhere. :)
My interactions with the hunters was on the nearby public, I keep a pretty close eye on it, especially during rifle season. I alerted law enforcement of a local outfitter potentially taking clients on it last year -- that's a no-no in Kansas. I don't know about anybody else, but I'd be TICKED if an outfitter put me on public ground!
When I went to Arizona on a Coues deer hunt I would have gladly shot any legal buck. Is that bad?
Don't know cherney, ever asked the locals there?
Calhoun I am a resident and have shot more big deer than most. I am not going to pass very many legit 150 inch deer. I have passed a few on years where I had a giant roaming but those years are few and far between. It takes a damn big deer to legitimately score 150. Many claim to shoot deer that score 150, and everyone and their brother see's a 150 every time they drive the roads. These same people see a few mountain lions and have occasionally run across a sasquatch.
No, I don't know any locals and quite frankly don't care what their opinion is. I paid $400+ for a tag and was hunting public ground. I guess sometimes it helps people to think about it from another perspective. There are people that aren't trophy hunting every time they step foot in the woods. Is that bad?
No Patrick it's not that bad....if it makes you happy then that's good. I'm just saying I don't like spending a lot of time and money going somewhere just to shoot something I could have shot in my own state. I rather go home empty handed and let them grow either for me or someone else later on.
Arizona was a tough hunt. Lots of land but not many deer, and I walked miles a day just to see half a dozen deer and a about as many javelina. Not sure I'd put that state in the same category as Kansas.
And yes Jeff I'm not saying a 150 is not a decent deer. Just in my few short years though in Kansas I have notice there are quite a few 3 yr olds that score that and more. It would kill my soul right now to shoot one that young intentionally.
There are many spot on points here. TV/Money have taken alot of fun out of hunting. All the technology has made it much easier to find and kill animals. When will it end? Seasons are so much longer than they were in the past. So many hunters travel to multiple states. Not enough of the resource for the demand. I feel for guys on all sides of this. But there is not enough ground and animals for everybody. If i was a kid and started again i would not have been a hunter. Too much competition and hard to compete with folks who have more land/time/connections and money. It seems like it is like this everywhere and for every species. in such a competitive world it seems a shame that in your hobbies it's like this too. Just my experiences and observations - I hope I'm wrong about some of this?? Thanks.
Geez, judgmental much?
It's the person's permit, they can fill it with whatever makes them happy. If it's one of "your" bucks you "think needs another year or two" and they shoot it where they can hunt, good for them.
Locals danged sure were jealous, and some outspoken, when I drew a Montana sheep tag. Guess I shouldn't have hunted without their permission, on public land I helped pay for.
Why go to South Dakota to hunt pheasants when we have them in Kansas? Why go to Nebraska to hunt turkeys when we have the same flavor here. Could be some people just like to hunt, and the size of the experience is more important than the size of the game. I'm at that stage. I want to head to SD, WY, MO, WI, MN, NE and hunt with some friends I haven't seen in years. Do I need to get it cleared through the local sportsman's club, or can I just do it on that state's Bowsite.
I don't care to shoot a bull elk or buck deer with a rifle...but I have, and I look forward to seeing how friends have done when they've done it. Shoot, I look forward to Thorton's elk hunt updates. Not my way to hunt, but he earns them and likes it.
Ok, how about this? I prefer to fly-fish. It's certainly more challenging than spinning, you get a much better connection with the fish. We can make our own rods, tie are own flies.So, I don't see why anybody would want to wind some fish in with a hand winch on a pool cue. And I really like it when someone says how some hunting technique isn't sporting...then they go set lines for catfish.
There, now I've complained like the rest of you... :-)
Lol Mark you're pretty much right about everything you said. sometimes I think I wished I would have let my boy have more fun when he was hunting instead of being so selective on what to shoot. When he was 8 or 9 he was passing deer that most people would have shot. He went a yr or 2 not getting too excited about hunting and some of that might have been my fault. He's 15 now though and seems to be getting real excited again...changing to a bow a few years ago has helped him.
Writer, the point was the number of declining trophy deer, I believe that’s what we were talking about before you pulled the judgmental card.
Cherney, tough for me to personally see it from a non-res perspective. I’ve never hunted out of state and never plan to; if I do, then I guess I’ll begin to see things differently. I’m a little more in line with Calhoun’s thinking. Why pay all of that money to shoot a small deer? Although Calhoun, I’d love to hunt where you hunt, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a young 150” deer! In 30 years of hunting, I’ve only shot 3 over 150 and they were older bucks. To be completely forthcoming though, I should say I should have shot at least 3 more that would have surpassed 150"; but those are sad stories for another day...sigh.
Calhoun you just proved my point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know very many hunters who would pass this one. Would you consider this deer decent? Is this what you are seeing driving around?
Makes for good reading fellas
Lol man Jeff you put me in a tough spot...that is a decent deer. I'm not the greatest at judging their age by a pic but if that deer is mature then yeah he's a shooter. But on horns yeah I have passed some dang good deer. Deer I would have shot in a heartbeat in Texas. Of course I have been patient and been letting them grow though.
But yeah Jeff you could be right on starting them out too young...sometimes it could backfire on you. Started him when he was 5 which I think he was ready but I might should have made it a little more fun for him. Remember one time in northern Missouri I was trying to get him a big one with his muzzleloader....think he was 10 at the time at was late December in snow and bone cold...after a long time I looked over at him and tears was coming down his face...he was so cold but not saying a word. Right then I had the worst feeling in the world and wished somebody would have been there to beat me upside the head with a 2x4.
I would think it would be easier to determine whether a deer is mature and what it might score from a picture on the ground than it would be watching one run away on the hoof 250 yds away. Do you see where I am going with this?
I usually see several around 150" while hunting every year. Once in a while I get lucky and shoot one.
Lol well at 20 yards though it's pretty easy to judge the horns....now I'm still not the best at judging the exact age once they reach around 4 yrs old.
Some of my best memories were tagging along with "the men" during rifle season while I was to young to hunt. I had my bow and practiced like crazy for 2 years before I turned 14 and was old enough to buy a tag of my own. Awfully gratifying to have to wait and work so hard for something and then finally get it. Been a diehard bowhunt since. I'm glad the law made me wait. It helped build a certain drive in me.
My dad and grandfather took me duck hunting a lot when I was younger than that. I remember being so cold that I cried. Tried so hard not to let it show but there were times the cold would sink in so deep i didn't think anything could hurt worse, or that it would go away. I still love to duck hunt. I reflect back and know that those times just made the next cold day not so bad. It certainly didn't diminish my drive to hunt.
Lol I guess I don't know where you was going with that Jeff...maybe that I'm over scoring my deer? Could happen by a little on some occasions and I know trail cam pics make them seem bigger but I try to adjust for that.
This buck is probably 150 something. Would you shoot him?
By the pic I would guess him around 150 with the little trash....which makes him a good main frame 8. Depends what other deer was on my place...if I had history with the deer and knew for sure he was mature then yeah I wouldn't mind shooting him...he has a nice frame. But the 150s I'm talking about is the young main frame 10s...that I don't want to shoot.
And Jeffs deer was a good solid main frame 8 as well.
I would shoot that deer every year, and he is mature. I posted a pic of that buck to show a legit 150, he grossed 151. My point is that I would imagine somewhere around 10% (probably much less) of the bucks in the state of Kansas would actually gross 150 or better. Of that percent, the majority are nocturnal. But everyone you talk to say they see them driving around all the time. No way to really judge a deer unless you are setting up over a food plot with a spotting scope or you have one on trail cam. Most of these claims of seeing a deer that scores this and that are bogus. Which is why many hunter experience ground shrinkage. Kind of like everyone has a field champion dog, until you go hunting with them.
Thanks for posting a pic Jeff. I didn’t have to lol.
150" 9 point. Of course the net was considerably less
I agree completely with the numbers of 150”+ deer running around, or lack thereof. A 150 class buck is a true trophy!
Thornton I would have to see the score card on that one. Not saying it won't make it, but to me no mass and little brow tines for a 150 inch deer. Take a look at the brow tines on the deer I posted and look at the mass. I have on a couple of layers and heavy hoodie if you compare the bases to my forearms. Nice big mature deer that my son passed on the 27th of September at 10 yds. He passed him to shoot the 164 that passed by 5 minutes later. I was in the tree directly above him when he shot the buck. I was lucky enough to shoot that 8 on the 9th on Nov. I killed a 157 the next year from the same spot.
yeah its hard to tell cause Thortons pic is a close up shot...but that extra tine in the back is helping him some.
Classic Kansas buck, clip. Nice frame with some treasure points. You can add 10" because it has a bloody nose and mouth.
Calhoun, I wish I would have pointed that out before you did. I always hate it when people push those deer to the camera's. I was never a good enough photographer to do so. A true 150 is a really big deer. They have have to have character, a white face, large brows, and a lot of burrs around the bases. That is what mature deer look like. Nasty.
Here is an Archery Talk 170-180 or a realistic 150's buck. I have his shed too. Nice buck that will be in the 150's. These are few and far between.
I agree with you clipper about 150" deer not being common. This barely grossed 150 wet.
This one missed 150", but obviously to me both were good enough.
That's a dandy buck. It would be interesting if there was some way to figure out the percentage but it would have to be under 10%. I have a friend, believe it or not, from Pennsylvania who hunts a lot of property, and much of it borders the property's I hunt. He comes here for 6 weeks every year or until he kills one. Last year he told me he did not have one buck on his half dozen trail camera's that would top 135. Too bad bowhunting isn't like fishing where we could practice catch and release. I don't like eating deer meat so if we could just turn em loose I would be a happy man.
Some of them will fool you in the opposite way. This buck grossed 156 and some change, the second biggest buck I’ve ever shot. I honestly thought he was a giant bodied 140” deer when I shot him. If your second guessing the score you can ask Marvin, he scored him. He’s the only NCK buck I’ve ever shot, they grow them big up there.
ksq232,
big bodied, good tine length with excellent brows...I believe the score. Nice buck BTW!
Kinda like this pencil neck that scored in the 150's. He field dressed over 270 at the coop's scale. The game warden about passed out when he came to check him for CWD. The taxidermist ordered the largest Mckenzie form sold and still had a hard time getting the cape over the form. I have never seen a deer with that large of a body.
yeah Jeff I might get them wrong a little sometimes cause I would have guessed that deer you have in the trail cam pic in the low 160's.
And I always do gross score....I don't care about deductions. Well I was going to post a few pics but I'm not smart enough to transfer them from my phone to here on the computer. And she's not happy with me right now and she won't help me...dang woman.
ksq232,
I shot this one at 22 yards and thought nothing much about the rack because he was so narrow, but thought I would have a lot of very tasty burger to last the year, lol. He ended up grossing over 170 wet. Tough to judge sometimes and I often get them wrong, except my guess about the taste, Always good to me!
He might be in the low 160's, I don't know, I never shot him.
Habitat what am I doing wrong, cause the only tasty burgers I eat come from cows? I can stomach a little deer chili or a butter and garlic back strap once a year but I prefer a greasy cheeseburger with onion rings or ribeye. To eat the cheeseburgers I like you have to wear rubber gloves and have a burn kit handy. That grease and juice has to be running out of them along with the grilled onions. I had pork fat and bacon added to my deer burger this year and still don't like it.
That's the mature type of deer I like. Grey around the eyes and narly looking.
Good looking bucks fellas! Starting to make me anxious for some trail cam pics in a couple months.
North Missouri back in 2013.
North Missouri back in 2013.
I grew up poor and skinny. I thought the food in the Corps was great! I guess I have never been that discriminating when it comes to feeding my belly. I make my burgers with a little breakfast sausage, eggs, milk, parmesan cheese and a secret recipe of spices mixed in with the venison. Paid my way through school cooking and I think it has helped some. Robin and I do not buy beef any more for at home. Sorry to you ranchers!
Talk about mis-judging above, it was late December, in the single digits and snowing when I hung my stand in a staging area. This buck came in right at sunset with about 8-10 anterless. No shot opportunity, I waited until dark and the deer had moved out to feed and then pulled my stand. Told my buddy I saw a real good one and I was going back the next night and slightly adjust my location. Good luck prevailed, but he barely made 133"
Post rut, neck slimmed down and his rack just looked bigger to me. Post rifle as well, toss in the cold and my mind had me convinced I would be taking a hero shot picture.
Tasted awesome though!
Lol remembered the last few days I actually typed from my phone on here....got to figure out now how to make the pic smaller.
Another nice one Habitat. I got a freezer full of venison but I imagine I will be doing a Texas Crutch on a big ole brisket this weekend. I do one about every weekend during the summer. If it is not brisket then it is a slab of baby backs or a pork shoulder. I most generally do the Feed the Hungry with my deer but had mine processed this year. Isn't this more fun than the Covid threads?
Clipper,
Great program, thanks for participating!
I am worried when I will be too old to hunt. I hope some of our generosity comes back around and someone will donate a deer to us.
Lol yeah Frank I kind of like you when you're talking deer.
Clipper, Discussing lots of topics has always interested me. Hunting ranks very high, but still lower than conservation;-)
Like I said before hunting Kansas is a love of mine. The hunting is wonderful. I also target big mature bucks. I love the chase most of all. I enjoy trying to out smart the old bucks and hunting Kansas allows me the opportunity to do this. I have no issues how others hunt as long as it’s legal and the game is given it’s fair chase. So on that note I would never tell anyone how they should hunt and what to kill. I have never had a bad experience with land owners, farmers, residents, or the hunting. I also think Kansas is doing a great job when it comes to allowing only 1 buck to be killed with your tag but, I was also raised in a state where you can kill 7 bucks a year.
Hunting is a major component of conservation in my opinion, at least is should be. Tourism is not.
If I mention score in honor of all the deer that have made the books I go by net. If I do not have the net then it's just however points it has. That deer I shot had 18 scoreable points as it has not been officially scored yet. I mean disrespect to the guys who use gross but out of respect for the Giants that have fallen.
Tourism is a major part of
Matte,
It is out of respect that I go by gross. Nature gave them gross, man decided net was important. But then I respect the anterless just as much.
Clipper, I agree, hunting is conservation. I guess I am getting old as I look forward to the habitat work more than hunting now.
My point was shooting a 3.5 year old. I mean I know there are some 3.5 year olds in Kansas over 130 but I would never pass a deer I felt was 130 plus that was 4.5 or older or a 6.5 that scored 120 cause he was broken up, he is still 6.5 and I would shoot him. I just see way to many NRs calling guys out to look at the 140 plus they just shot and ya go look and it is lucky to be a 120" 3 year old. 40 thousand plus NRs is too many no matter how you look at it!!! Iowa 6 thousand, do the math. Shawn
Like I said I'm not real good at aging them past 4yr old...sometimes its hard for me to tell the difference between a 5 and 7yr old. But I've been watching this deer since he was 2 so I know last season he was 4....had him in bow range twice this past season and he's flirting with being 170. I don't think there is anything wrong with passing deer like that....I'm out there hunting cause it makes me feel good and I love to watch deer. Hope he makes it so I can have shot at him close to his being full potential but if not then I had fun watching him grow at least.
Slate, don't post that, every time I see unit 11 I get depressed, even more depressed when I remember that a ton of the people in neighboring units are hunting 11 too..... sigh. I would bet we have more non-res hunters in unit 11 than the entire state of Iowa!!!!!! Now I'm not depressed, I'm ticked at Topeka again.
Lol sorry James. I understand your frustration. I get it.
Hey guys I empathize with the guys on both side. Especially understand the residents, who, don't directly benefit from the NR money. Iowa sets the standard. States like NE and OH could probably raise their license fees quite a bit and generate more revenue and offset the lower numbers. Might benefit all. It's a shame to see states like KS and IL to see the quality go down so much over the last 2 decades. With the amount of demand i wonder if they raised their license fees to $800, $900 or more, that, they would weed out some hunters, but, still prosper and make the revenue with less hunters. Many would complain or be unhappy, but, i would guess they would still get plenty that would pay it. Until demand/supply were balanced. Right now more demand than supply for quality experience. There is a point when it will be too much, but, doesn't look like any states are there yet. Guys might go to less states. States would get revenue with less NR leading to better quality and continued demand? BTW - lots of really nice deer guys - thanks for sharing!
If those tags were $1500 it would not matter. I remember 15 years ago, those Transferable Tags started out at $1500 on Ebay.
i agree. But they could sell 20,000 tags @ $1,000 instead of 40,000 @ $500. Same revenue, less pressure, better experiences, increased quality, so, people would be willing to pay up for these tags? Better for residents - less NR and competition. NR also benefit from less crowding and better quality?
Habitat,
I agree with what nature gave them but score was developed by some very, very smart and respectable people. So if I hear a score I assume you used the metrics they developed that have stood for decades and decades of data entry. Personally when I shoot a really big deer score doesn't matter. The experience does far more me. However I like the historical data you can find based on a true scoring system. It helps narrow the acres down of where to look especially when I was younger. Not so much anymore.
Matte,
Agreed, but I guess score doesn't matter to me. When I first started hunting I don't even remember talk of trophy caliber and such.
I might be interpreting what Mike said incorrectly, but I have grown weary of the focus on size. Hunt just to hunt!
Lol how come hunters that like big deer get told sometimes...oh you just need to hunt...or you need to enjoy the hunt more...or you just need to brace nature and be in the moment. Now I can see maybe taking a kid out for the first few time maybe not putting to much pressure on him about the size but saying that to people that's been hunting for a long time....doesn't make sense to me. A part of the reason I pass deer too is I'm having way too much fun out there I don't want it to end. The people that go after the age or size of the animal usually spends a lot more time in the woods than the people that don't...so to me it makes more sense or seems like maybe they're the ones that might not be enjoying the hunt so they just shoot something. Like maybe they get more enjoyment out of killing than just hunting. Lol definitely not judging or trying to tell people that don't like big deer what they are thinking or feeling when they are hunting but always just wondered why that stigma gets put on us.
Habitat is right, we counted points not inches back in the day. I had hunted 10 years or so before I ever heard of scoring deer.
Lol what kind of pic is this Jason...looks like one of them '' Can you find the deer poster ''. Glad you didn't ask someone to score this one...are those tree limbs above his head off of the tree beside him? Take that away and his shape of his head looks resembles a moose. Joking...pretty cool pic actually. is this off a trail cam or did you take this pic?
Took it right before I sneaked up and skewered him through the heart. 154" counting stickers
Whoa that's awesome....is that how you really took it? If so man that's a very good pic and memory to have and keep. I haven't done anything like that...If I knew I was going to shoot it I would have been to scared to try and take his pic before the shot.
Calhoun,
I like it all. I bet few if any noticed the doe laying next to that buck above. I kept hunting after taking him.
Matte: I agree with you. I am not big on scoring deer, but if I give a score it will be a net score. If I give a gross score I will point out that it is gross.
Have never scored an animal and never will. If we did not score we would be able to hunt KS like we used to. There would not be the clamoring to get into our state. Less illegal outfits and less poaching. Just IMYOP.
Lol yep you're right Frank...I didn't noticed the doe behind you at first. I was too focused on your big deer out front. You had the doe hidden in the back with stuff on it like you didn't care about it or showing it off. But I thought I heard you say you don't shoot big deer....them are some nice ones you have taken...especially that one. Don't feel bad about trying to take big deer...it's just human nature I think for people to like and show off big deer.
Calhoun,
I have always said I am not good enough to target a single big deer and harvest it with any regularity like some of the KS men do every year. I hunt the does and so am occasionally blest, but did take those two on October 15th. Knew he was there, had the typical shed from the year before.
I was exhausted from wrestling them both out of the draw by myself. I do not have a picture of him without her which should say something.
But, it was luck, or rather a gift IMO.
There are a number of guys here who never post anything picture wise, and they don't compliment the deer I have taken because compared to what they have harvested these are nothing special. Now, them boys know their stuff, it ain't luck with them, but a rare gift!
Calhoun,
That non-typical was tooth aged at 7. He came from MO. One week later to the day I was fortunate to take this 4 year old on the KS side. Most guys would have passed him, just pushing a little over 140" Not me, look at his body! Taxi had to use clay as filler on the largest McKenzie mold available.
I rattled and grunted blindly, he came hard and I first laid eyes on him at less than 40. By the time I grabbed the bow, came to full draw and settled the pin, he was at 7 yards. Never even looked at the rack, the body size said everything I wanted to know. That ought to tell you how much I am interested in bone.
But I actually agree with you, I don't care what other guys are after. Whatever works for them is absolutely fine. And the big rack hunters ought to feel the same way towards anyone else who hunts for a different reason. I think that is the point, or close to it, that Mike was making. And I agree with him as well.
Slate what’s your point of the lesser prairie chicken post ?
Calhoun- Stalking deer is best during foul weather. Rain or snow is my favorite time to go out and I've had many encounters and passed on a lot of bucks.
Used a creek bank to get with 30 yards of this one. As of late December, he was still alive on my trail camera.
Frank you're selling yourself short...you definitely have what it takes. I love hearing stories about how people take their deer and I bet that was exciting when he came charging in.
And Jason I don't see how you stalk Whitetail. I got patience to sit all day in the tree but I don't have the type of patience to do a stalk. The degree of difficulty to pull that off is way up there as well. Congrats to you for sure.
When I buy a non resident tag whether it's for deer or elk, I don't look at it like I'm paying for an animal that scores a certain number of inches. Rather I look at it more like I'm paying for the opportunity for another hunt. Sometimes along with that cost comes increased quality animals.
No offense, but I think some residents of Kansas and Iowa are somewhat spoiled by the quality of deer they're used to seeing. There are a lot of public land hunters in Wisconsin who may only see a few 130" class bucks in their life and may never even see a true 150" buck.
It's easy for the a guy who is used to lower quality bucks to shoot the first 130-140" buck they see when hunting Kansas because they may have never seen one before during their hunting life.
I hunt multiple states and I have my own standards for what I'll shoot but my standards are not set in stone. If it feels right I'll shoot it regardless of score and regardless of what anybody else thinks about it.
I'm sure some Kansas residents would criticize me for shooting this buck last year in Kansas but I've hunted a long time and opportunities at bucks like this don't come along every day for public land hunters, especially when you're used to hard hunted Wisconsin public land or the land you used to hunt is now almost devoid of deer because wolves ate them all...
Pretty easy if everything is wet and windy with the wind in your face. Big bucks bed facing down wind and if you come in from an angle in mid day, they are usually facing you asleep.
Thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind if the opportunity ever rises for me to try that.
Mike,
That's a great deer! Congratulations. I like what you said, if it feels right to you, then...
However we hunt, if our style works for us, then enjoy it and don't worry about what others think, given it is legal and ethical.
Jason, that is impressive. You like to stalk. I always took pride in being mobile and figuring out how the deer used the land to their advantage at different times of the season. To each their own.
I will never criticize someone for what they shoot, as long as it is a legal animal and they are happy with it. If they are happy I am happy for them. It is not the size of the deer but the size of the hunt that is important. Personally, I get nearly as much satisfaction from hunting does as I do bucks. Of course I like venison.
Cheesehead very nice deer. I could care less what anyone shoots or how they hunt. My concerns are with how our state manages our deer. Whether guys bait with corn or hunt with a crossbow is up to them if it is legal. However, I feel our state has mismanaged by allowing baiting, by inclusion of crossbows, by allowing too many non resident tags, by issuing any season tags, and by managing with money being the number criteria in how regulations are set. Hunters will hunt by whatever means are granted to them, and Kansas will set regulations to bring in the most revenue.
Thanks Kansas clipper. And I hear what you're saying about management. Wisconsin could be a great state but for comparison, Wisconsin allows baiting on public and private land in about half of the state, crossbows are allowed during archery, non resident licenses are unlimited otc for $160, 2 bucks are allowed (1 gun and 1 archery) and the worst part is wolves have decimated the deer population in the northern third of the state.
In fact, I wouldn't even be hunting in Kansas if the wolves hadn't wiped out the deer in northern Wisconsin and yet remain on the endangered species list even though they fully recovered years ago.
When I talk to hunters in Kansas and Iowa they're oblivious to the fact that northern Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota have a wolf problem because it doesn't affect them. The truth of the matter is that some of the increase in Kansas non resident hunters is because of guys like me who have been displaced by wolves and now have to look elsewhere for quality deer. So whether you guys realize it or not, wolves up north affect the hunting in Kansas, Iowa, Missouri, etc.
"Under these current Wisconsin regulations and conditions, wolves are apparently not a competitor, or aren't really having that much of an impact (on deer),"
Mike- not a challenge just some interesting data on WI wolves and deer populations.
Here is another study on deer mortality in WI including the northern forests.
Mike I hope you didn't think I was critizing people that shoot smaller deer....I know I put inches on there but right after that I noted immature deer. Somehow this got to inches only....and I'm not critizing anybody that shoots 2 and 3 yr old deer either. My dad is dead now but he did and I loved and respected him dearly. I guess I'm just trying to encourage people to go after mature animals cause I think it would make it better for everyone. Think of it this way....if you had 2 pieces of private ground...one next to public that hunters that smoked the younger deer and didn't give them a chance to grow and the other place was next to a public that did just the opposite I'm pretty sure the hunting would be better for you on that one. Again sorry if I made anybody feel funny...I have shot plenty of deer in the 120s and 30s if you go by score. Oh and by the way Mike I seen some of your Elk...very impressive. I shot one a long time ago with a gun and since then I haven't been back...but going this year with a bow to see how I like it.
I'm a non-resident
I believe the quality of bucks have been declining for at least 10-12 years (overall) ....... and that dates back to when "outfitters" really started buying into counties and selling hunts. THAT is the #1 reason for the decline IMO, and the increased tags to fulfill the demand of those outfitters .... the herds can't sustain
JMO and if I could do it, I'd slash the tag numbers in half for non-residents and I'd gladly forfeit every other years hunt to increase the quality for the residents and the non-residents who do have tags
just me
Yeah outfitters really hurt things...or should I say the ones that care more about the money than the deer herd. I'm sure there is a few good ones.
Very few outfitters truly manage an area. I've always said the ones that do own part or all of the land and have a long term, vested interest in the outfitting part. But then again, I've seen some ranchers that outfitted and were terrible at deer management.
KSflatlander, I read the article at your first link but I didn't take the time to read the entire study at your second link. I will when I get a chance. One thing I did see is their 2 study areas and I don't think either of them are far enough north to represent the full impact of Wolves. Also the first article quoted David Meche, who is probably the most pro wolf wolf person in the world. Asking his opinion on wolves is like asking PETA for information on hunting.
I'll be 60 this September and I've hunted Wisconsin since I was 12 years old and have hunted Bayfield County (northernmost county in Wisconsin) for the past 25 years or so. Severe winters are a fact of life (and death) in the north and they often take their toll on the deer but the deer have always been able to bounce back from severe winters. But not anymore now that wolves have become so numerous. The deer just can't recover.
I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who also hunted up north but have given up due to lack of deer. The traditional family deer camps have disappeared for the most part and the lack of deer has affected the local economy with bars and restaurants closing and even reduced real estate value because nobody is buying land for hunting camps anymore.
I have a cabin there and so do a few of my friends. We had some great hunting there for many years and between us we killed numerous 125-160 class bucks but those days are gone thanks to wolves. It's heartbreaking to see what has happened to such a beautiful area with hundreds of thousands of acres of public land. We've seen deer numbers rise and fall due to severe winters in the past but their numbers just don't rise anymore. People that still hunt there are lucky to see one or two deer in a week of hard hunting. Hunters that are used to Kansas, Iowa and Missouri would be totally amazed at the size of the country and the lack of deer.
The only thing that is different now compared to 25 years ago is the number of wolves, which by the way are way under estimated by the DNR.
So I probably sound like a stubborn old fart but I don't believe any of the propaganda put out by the DNR or one author because myself and my friends have seen it first hand.
be still, no worries I understand 100 percent where you're coming from. I just wanted to share the perspective of hunters who might not be accustomed to the quality of deer that Kansas has.
I live on 60 wooded acres in Wisconsin, I have food plots and I do what I can to manage it but it's not really possible with neighbors who shoot everything and the "if it's brown it's down" mentality. Although I have shot a few good ones off my property including one I believe was about 7 years old based on trail cam photos.
Around here a few 3 year old bucks might make P&Y but it typically takes 4 years. Those deer are few and far between and most bucks get killed when they're yearling spikes to small 8 points.
So yes, I get what you're saying and I totally agree with targeting mature deer but I'm not going to judge anybody if their standards aren't the same as mine.
As said before, it's the State that is allowing mismanagement of mature deer. Anyone with a tag should be able to joyfully shoot whatever the tag is legal for. Since the state has no interest in mature buck management anymore the residents have become vocal and tried to get it to happen with culture instead.
I know some guys up north. When a wolf shows up on cam the deer disappear for weeks at a time. They just leave and quit coming around that area. So even if the deer/wolf mortality numbers look low, it still has an affect on their hunting. The wolves are another example of a state's mismanagement of wildlife. It sucks when an external factor affects your hunting...
Being a life long resident and Deer hunter for just over 50 years, let me say this. I accidently became a horn hunter after taking 3 or 4 bucks that scored 140 or more. Back in the 70's that was a GOOD Deer. Then came a spell of tag soup because I was looking for that big one. The past 20 years, I still hunt for that elusive monster, but sometimes a much smaller buck gets to wear my tag. The last one that comes to mind was a 125/30 inch buck that my son and I were playing with. A Doe had layed down in a small plum ticket and the buck was circleing it to get her out. My son was belly crawling up toward them, tickling antlers together and I was sneaking in from another direction. The buck would come to my side, son would tickle the antlers and the buck would run to the other side. This went on for 20 minutes and I got within 20 yards. If I hadn't been laughing internally so much, I would have shot that buck just because of the antic's. Doug and I still laugh about that stalk. THAT IS WHAT HUNTING IS ALL ABOUT!
Mike I truly feel for you and the rest of the sane people in wolf country, it would be VERY difficult to follow the rule of law up that way. I don’t consider myself an old fart quite yet, but I don’t believe a word of what the media in general has to say about wolves.
Good stuff Marv! I almost got a shot at a buck years ago that came in to me crawling on all fours with my hip quiver strapped to my head. Of course at that point in my hunting “career” I would have missed him by a mile cause of nerves. :-) I wonder how many of us have stories like that??
Mike- every scientific study I have seen in deer mortality in WI, man and coyotes kill more deer. I get that you may have different anecdotal observations but that doesn’t mean it’s true. Predators always get the blame especially wolves regardless of what the data tells us what is truly the root cause. Usually there is more than one root cause and one of them is almost always habitat related.
I wish you the best of luck in KS this year. I hope you go home with a 170. If you are ever near KC look me up. I’d buy the all beer just to hear some of the stories behind those awesome photos of your kills.
Ksq- science and media are not synonymous. If we start disregarding science because we don’t like what the data says then we are all screwed and flat-earthers will be teaching our kids science.
Science is skewed by special interests and people whose minds are made up before the study even begins. I’ll take the word of people seeing it with their own eyes. There is a fella who goes by the handle mn5503 on archerytalk living in Northern MN; his experiences are quite telling.
Agreed KSQ scientist generally work for someone.
If anybody has young kids...take plenty of pics and enjoy every moment. They grow up fast. He was 11 yrs Old here and the year before he had shot one with much bigger horns but he was very proud of this deer because it was his first deer with him sitting by himself in the tree stand. It was the last afternoon of the last day and we knew this had been an old cull deer for the last 2 years so I told him before I left the tree if he seen him he could take him. You could tell by his face he was proud he took out a management by himself.
“Science is skewed by special interests and people whose minds are made up before the study even begins.“
BS. If it is then it’s not science. That’s propaganda. Peer reviewed scientific studies and data is the foundation of our understanding. Contradictory data, discussion, and skepticism is a good thing in science. Anecdotal observations and experience is good but we don’t base decisions only on what we think we is going on. We test what we think is going on with repeatable studies. Biologists don’t just go in the woods and observe. They get data wherever possible.
If ones observation are superior to experiments and data the tell me, does the sun go around the earth from your point of view. Is the earth flat from your current perspective?
lol better pic of the cull deer.
Be Still....you get better results posting pics if your I-Phone is sideways (landscape mode) when taking the pic instead of vertical. It will/should then load correctly when you attach it to a post. Let’s see ...give it a try!
This was the one the year before...wish I had a better pic but he was a pretty decent 10 pt for a boy that age. We rattled him in and he shot him within 20 yards from the tree stand. So close I remember seeing the tuft of hair vibrate in the spot where the bullet entered right behind the shoulder. With the snow it made a beautiful hunt. That was year 2014 when rattling worked so good that year.
Thank you Jason...I'll try it on this one. This was in Missouri when he was 12...he had hunted hard in Missouri for 3 or 4 yrs prior to this and passed some decent hoping to get a bigger one. This time he had only the 2 day youth season so on the 2nd day at 10:45 am when this young deer followed a doe by the tree stand it was time just to get him a Missouri deer under his belt. This deer would have been pretty big later on...already had a 2nd main beam coming out.
Better pic of the young deer deer in Missouri...hated for him to shoot such a young promising deer but by that time I think he deserved to take one back home.
Lol well dang...do I have to turn my phone on every pic. On that one the other day it didn't do it.
Lol well dang...do I have to turn my phone on every pic. On that one the other day it didn't do it.
Yes.... hold your phone sideways on every pic.....atleast those that you may want to post on here anyways....results in less frustration overall. I know, I know, old habits can be hard to break...especially for most Texicans!
If anyone is like me they ain’t gonna waste their time turning their head and neck to get a better look of your jacked up pic or play the screen rotate game. If that’s the case, I just move on to the next post. Some on here may just say use the rotate option in the edit function...but that don’t always work.
Same thing goes when videoing with your phone. If you want to watch it back on your tv or something later you gotta hold your I-phone sideways for best result or else a vertically oriented video will look like a postage stamp on horizontally biased tv screens.
Rattled this Texas deer in as well right before dark. As it was pretty dark and since we were sitting on the ground I guess it made this deer seem bigger when he shot it. But we were still proud for him to get it.
Yes, sir! You’re gettin the hang of it!
Didn't know that about the video... took some real good footage with this phone here this past season from the tree. Wished I would have known that before. Man I'm learning all kind things on here...with Thornton giving me a pointer on how to stalk a deer from the front quarter and now this I'm starting to get somewhere.
Flatlander, what’s your stake in this? You got investment money in wolves or something? If you’re only reading scientific data about supporting the growing population of wolves, you’re obviously not reading all the data.
You MIGHT find this thread interesting, quite a bit of scientific study mentioned on both sides of the debate; obviously, I side with the research pointing towards wolf as an endangered as an endangered species being a major problem. A problem I’m glad we don’t have to deal with in Kansas.
https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5753669&p=1111067635#post1111067635
I have no stake in it nor in wolves. There is a lot of myths about wolves and predators in general. As a wildlife biologist, seeing a perpetuation of misinformation about them makes me cringe.
I don’t doubt that Mike has observed negative effects of wolves on local deer populations but doesn’t mean that all predators or wolves are bad. They have their place in the ecosystem. The problem is that we have so modified ecosystems that predator/prey population dynamics easily get out of wack. If we truly look at the issue we (humans) are often part of the problem.
Got my Idaho general deer tag in the mail yesterday. If I read the regs right, you can shoot a wolf or mountain lion if you don't tag a deer with it. Manitoba had it right, you could shoot 1 wolf and 1 coyote as well as a buck.
Are you talking about Mule Deer or whitetail? And that doesn't make sense...look like they would want you taking a Wolf or Cat out if you shot a deer.
In Idaho, it is my understanding I can buy separate lion/wolf tags OR I can shoot one on my deer tag if I don't get a deer.
KSflatlander,
In regard to coyotes and hunters killing deer, in Wisconsin we are restricted to deer hunting season and bag limits and there is a perpetual season on coyotes with no limits and we shoot every one we see. Therefore we are limited on the number of deer we can kill and our hands are not tied when it comes to dealing with coyotes. Wolves on the other hand hunt deer 24/7/365 with no limitations, restrictions, checks or balances and certainly no conscience. You made reference to hunters killing more deer than wolves. Yes, statewide that is definitely true but in portions of the northwoods I'm certain that wolves kill more deer than hunters and each wolf is not restricted to one or two deer per year as hunters are. All you have to do in order to see some of the impact of wolves is look at hunter deer kill statistics in northern Wisconsin over the past several years during a period when wolf numbers have been growing.
In regard to anecdotal evidence, as a biologist you may be predisposed to disregard anecdotal evidence because you feel that your education and experience are superior and that the rest of us are just ignorant barstool biologists. To be honest, the implication that I'm imagining things or that I haven't really seen or experienced the things I've seen and experienced, by somebody who is hundreds of miles away and presumably has never seen or experienced the impact of wolves first hand seems a little condescending. If I didn't have fairly thick skin I might be insulted. One of the things that frustrates those of us who live, hunt, raise livestock or all of the above in areas impacted by wolves are distant biologists who minimize or disregard our concerns as if we don't know what's going on around us. I certainly don't claim to have all the knowledge of a biologist; at one time that's the direction I wanted to go with my career but I went in another direction. I chose a career that involved constant evaluation of all evidence, i.e. historical, record, legal, parol, anecdotal, etc. to arrive at the truth regardless of who it favored or who it didn't. I learned that studies and opinions are often influenced by bias, agendas, special interests, money or other factors. It was the truth that mattered in my career and it often had serious implications for the parties involved. Successfully discovering the right answer was predicated on not having bias or preconceived notions prior to examining all evidence. I have a very analytical, observant and open mind. This has helped me be a successful hunter whether it's deer or elk in a new state or zone as well as in areas I'm familiar with. The point I'm attempting to make with this tangent is that I'm not someone who is quick to jump to conclusions based on emotion or hyperbole; my mind doesn't work that way.
As deer numbers continued to dwindle with each successive year I didn't realize at first the impact wolves were having. But the wolf sign in the snow began to tell the story. For several years I continued to spend the prime days of the November rut in Bayfield County hoping what was happening wasn't really happening. But unfortunately it was. The sound of wolves howling became a very common occurrence and I've had several sightings. One of the last years that I hunted the rut in the northwoods we had snow on the ground and I made a 3 mile scouting loop through a formerly very protective area. In those 3 miles I crossed 4 sets of deer tracks, saw almost zero buck sign and more wolf tracks than I could count. That's just one example and it was pretty much the same throughout the entire northern portion of the County. My hunting buddies and acquaintances all experienced the same thing. That's when I started looking elsewhere; first Missouri, then Iowa and then Kansas. It's been good elsewhere but I miss the northwoods.
I agree that wolves are a part of nature and they have their place in the ecosystem. Yes there are those who would like to totally eradicate them but there are also those who believe that not one single wolf should be killed. That mentality is just as extreme and irrational. Unfortunately, we were sold a bill of goods with the Endangered Species Act in regard to Great Lakes wolves. We were told that wolves would be delisted and their management turned over to individual states when their numbers reached a certain threshold. That number was surpassed many years ago but yet wolves remain on the ESL. They were delisted in Wisconsin a few years ago and we had a season on them for two years with very limited tags that had to be drawn in a lottery. However, the quota was set so low (DNR had fear of backlash so quotas were very conservative) that the quotas were filled very quickly and the seasons were closed very early. Many tag holders never got to hunt or trap before the season was closed. The fact that the quotas were filled so quickly and easily is evidence of high wolf numbers and that their numbers are severely underestimated. The quota wasn't even large enough to effect net growth.
The next year a federal judge placed wolves back on the ESL absurdly ruling that they can't be considered "recovered" until they are recovered in their entire historic range which includes the great wolf habitat in places surrounding Chicago and other big cities. Who knows, maybe it includes Kansas too? At least you have something to look forward to and now they might move in from Colorado.
What's so frustrating is that wolves have fully recovered and their effect on deer numbers is undisputable to anybody who has actual boots on the ground experience where wolves live but the feds are not holding up their end of the bargain and refuse to let us manage their numbers at predetermined and agreed upon levels. They need to be managed just like all other animals are managed for the good of all, including humans. We are part of the food chain and we have just as much right, if not more right to have an acceptable number of deer. Wolves should not be placed on a pedestal and allowed to run rampant with humans only allowed to have their leftover scraps. Wolves kill indiscriminately and without conscience and "management" is not part of their vocabulary.
In regard to your comment about habitat, I guarantee habitat is not an issue in the area I'm speaking of. There are hundreds of thousands of acres of public land much of it county or township owned. Large scale logging operations have been ongoing as long as I have been familiar with the area. There are thousands of acres of timber and clear cuts of all age classes. There are cedar lowland traditional winter deer yarding areas near the shore of Lake Superior that deer used to migrate to which are now for the most part devoid of deer due to wolf depredation. There are thousands of acres of browse and mast crop literally untouched due to lack of deer.
There have always been coyotes, bears, bobcats, hunters and severe winters up north and the deer were always able to recover if not flourish. The only substantial change in the past 15 years up north is the increase in wolf numbers. And yes, there are many factors affecting deer numbers but unmanaged and uncontrolled wolves are the straw that broke the camel's back.
I don't think the typical Kansan can have a true appreciation for the situation. Hunting the northwoods has always been a challenge due to low deer densities and the scale of the landscape with no agricultural crops and very little to funnel or influence deer movement. The only hope was to try to find a predictable pattern based on topography and/or rut sign or dump a pile of corn, which is not my style of hunting and which btw sets the table for wolves. Now what few deer remain are even more scattered due to constant harassment by wolves or congregated around towns, homes and cabins where the threat from wolves is not as great.
To be honest, I prefer hunting the expansive northwoods over the small woodlots and creek corridors of Kansas and wouldn't mind hearing or seeing an occasional wolf. But unfortunately hunting in the northwoods has turned into not much more than a birdwatching exercise these days…
I appreciate the good luck wishes this year and I wish you good luck as well. If I'm ever in KC I'll let you know.
It's a shame you have lost your beloved hunting ground Mike. I left 2 different places in Missouri that I really liked cause both times a big time poacher that was even well known for that was living on the same road and was targeting those places. Nobody would do nothing about it so I left. It's sad that wolves has done so much damage that you had to leave that place to hear you describe sounded like a really good and exciting place to hunt.
X2 on most studies being biased. I know this is anecdotal. But I have observed several cattle studies that were done see what was the efficacy of medicines/vaccines. And yep, just so happens that it worked as good or better than was planned on. But after watching the "random" cattle being hand picked. I have little faith in a lot of "studies/science". First hand anecdotal evidence works just fine with me
This one time at band camp.......
Sorry I hijacked this thread. I guess one of the points I was trying to make is that hunters in Kansas, Iowa and Missouri might believe that wolves don't affect them. But as more hunters like me are displaced from northern Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan you're going to see more hunters coming to your states.
I hate to hear what your area is going through Mike. I’ve only heard bad things about wolves from my friends who live with them up in the north country.
Every thread on this page gets "sideways" Mike, not anything to do with you bud. Your points are valid and soon, if not already, I think you'll be able to add KS to that list of states that no longer offer a viable or desired experience.
To take this thread one more place off subject, kind of, it's only a matter of time before Iowa allows non-resident landowners a tag(s) every year; there's just too much money involved for the politicians to not mess over the residents. When that happens, there will be a mad rush to Iowa for the truly wealthy. Actually a buddy of mine, who most would say does not fit in the wealthy bracket, told me the other day he almost pulled the trigger on a piece of property in Iowa that was designated wetland area. He said the only thing that stopped him was not knowing how long it would be before he could hunt it every year.
Sito I have never gotten sideways!!!!!!!!
I believe SitO was referring to my post. Which yes, had absolutely nothing to do with what the OP started the thread with.
I was just joking with Sito!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would never get sideways, especially with KU and Kstate basketball.
I believe sito was talking about my post...I mentioned poachers and it probably was a little off line with everything.
I was talking about all y'all...who wants to wrestle!
Lol wrestle...haven't heard that word in a long time. How big are you?
This has been a pretty civil thread. But, lots of times KS residents are told by NR's how Kansas is, how it was, and how it will be. I find it interesting that the instant a KS guys tells a NR about his own state that he gets somewhat defensive. Looks like nobody wants to be told by an outsider what they are going through.
Lol the bigger the better....but no Jason I haven't been in Kansas that long so I don't know everything ya'll have been through. But I guess I have hunted Missouri so long I don't separate states too much. I feel like we're all in it together. Yeah when I first got there and learned that some of the locals in Kansas do deer drives I thought that was an odd way to hunt but I quickly got over it and realize Kansas has some really nice people. Do I wish Texas had less outsiders hunting so I would have more land to hunt?...that would be nice but I can't control that so I don't worry about it...I could sit there and whine about or I could go find other places to hunt...the latter seems to work out better.....lol I'm just saying 25 years for y'all to keep talking about the same thing is a little long time.
Though I sympathize with what Mike is going through, I thought the same thing Cat.
Well, for the record I've never told any Kansas resident how Kansas "is, how it was or how it will be".
I've only hunted Kansas two years so I don't claim to know much about it.
I certainly wouldn't tell a life long resident what it's really like with that limited experience, not to mention if I had no experience there at all.
I tried not to imply that you had said anything like that Cheesehead. I apologize for that, you've been a gentleman. It was just a convenient example that nobody likes an outsider to tell them their situation. As a lifelong resident I've lived through the changes and have many times seen the posts or comments... to just get used to it, or to out bid the NR's leases, or why complain when it's still better than other states.
Fact is that 25yrs is a long time to hold onto something. Unless you have witnessed that it could be soooooo much better with a couple of management changes. That, and the fact that I would love to have this generation of KS kids to have as good of experiences as I had as a kid. But as pointed out those days are over. Lots of kids still get the opportunity but many more don't.
I've never blamed a NR for coming to KS, I've never blamed a rancher for making money from his land, and I've met very few NR hunters who weren't hard working and genuinely thrilled to be here. Almost all of the ones I've met and dealt with were great people! I do however blame the State for policies that allow crappy management of the herd.
No worries Catscratch. Thanks and I appreciate your perspective.
Dad and I used to be able to hunt scattered properties from Eureka, KS all the way to the Butler County line west and dang near the Chase County line north. Had so much land to deer and turkey hunt, we picked a couple alfalfa fields and killed deer off them until everything was leased or sold. Some permissions we never set foot on. Always loosely guessed we had "10,000" acres of private to hunt for free. Of course, before deer were worth anything, the same landowners often let many other guys hunt the same properties and we all got along.
Good post Cat... It is the policies that have affected so many resident hunters. In fact I bet non resident hunters wish the deer caps were the same. "From an article from the Oklahoman". In an effort to gear up for this fall's seasons, Kansas wildlife officials have already drafted the framework for the issuance of non-resident tags. Working on the legislated guidelines that permits could only be issued in units that had leftover resident tags the year before, and that the number of non-resident tags make up no more than 5 percent of the tags allotted.
As it turns out, seven of the state's 18 management units will offer non-resident tags. Two of those, however, will issue only antlerless permits to non-residents. The other units, their number of tags and location are as follows.
Unit 1: 10 gun, 10 archery, whitetail buck only, most of northwest Kansas.
Unit 6: 45 gun, 45 archery, any deer, part of central Kansas.
Unit 10: 105 gun, 105 archery, buck only, most of northeast Kansas.
Unit 12: 200 gun, 200 archery, any deer, small part of south central Kansas.
Unit 13: 55 gun, 55 archery, any deer, small part of south central Kansas.
Nice find. Matt.
Had forgotten Unit 6 used to be so “hot.”
While the NR now makes up about 23% of tags now, resident hunting license sales have decrease by 10s of thousands. Maybe there is a correlation maybe not. With 500,000 acres of Crp set to expire in 2020 and alot of those acres enrolled in WIHA I wonder what the future holds for my kids.
I hope I am wrong but I don’t think the future looks good for any hunter in any state unless you are willing to pay the $$$ for a lease.. I see outfitted hunts... day hunts and Lottery draw hunts the thing of the future for most that will offer an opportunity at a decent whitetail..I believe kids of the future will have opportunities to hunt but it will be a lot different. Oh I’m sure There will be some land available to the public to hunt on but the quality will be so bad and it will be void of whitetails and will only be a place to spend some time in nature. Hope I’m wrong.
Matte where do you come up with 23%???????? Lets put accurate information out there. I have not seen the harvest report for 2019-2020 yet but for 2018-2019, Non Residents purchased 49,384 deer tags. Residents purchased 129,863 tags. The math says 38% of total tags goes to Non Residents with that gap continuing to narrow. As far as license sales for all forms of hunting, we have more Non Residents than we do residents.
Clipper. From the numbers you posted it would appear that non residents purchase about 27 to 28% of the tags
That is total tags including free for tags and extra for tags. My number comes from one hunter, one buck tag.*Note I should have said hunters not tags. My bad.
The CRP situation is scary. We’re potentially headed for about half of the acres we had in ‘07 here shortly. If that comes true I don’t see how tag quotas can remain the same in units like 1, 2, 3, 7, 17, 18, etc. Many of those areas already don’t hold as many deer as they did a decade ago. With sub-$3 corn potentially becoming the norm for the next 18+ months and many county’s crp payment actually rising this year, maybe there’s a little room for hope on expanding some acres though.
I know this is on the MO, but a representative from my county told me today that 115 of 118 properties were just re-enrolled.
One of the areas where I hunt pheasants a local farmer said it looked like only half of the CRP would be left in the program after last year and a lot more would leave this year. A lot of it was hayed or worked under late last fall. I assume it was after the last payment of the contract was made. If new acres are not enrolled it will have a negative effect on deer, pheasants, quail and other wildlife.
Here is the data for CRP.
well sito i hunt with an x gun and i feed my deer but you sure like to hunt them can not get to go somewhere else to hunt i want to see you try to burn me to a stake this fall will be waiting
well sito i hunt with an x gun and i feed my deer but you sure like to hunt them can not get to go somewhere else to hunt i want to see you try to burn me to a stake this fall will be waiting
Sounds like there’s some issues here maybe we know where your deer went sit
What ever happened to the days when we hunted for fun and enjoyment or out of need for meat, money got involved that’s what and has changed everything it’s pretty sad really
Damn Sit it ain’t like you to piss someone off LOL
Roger Ray you have any room for me? I can careless how you hunt on your own property. Sometimes guys need a swift kick in the ass.
Now that’s funny slate that made my coffee taste better
Slate I’ll go with ya ask roger if he’ll put me a blind up where sit shot that one last yr
Dang Roger it's nearly been 2 months since Sit made that comment so it's been stewing in you a long time. It ticked me off a little too but I said something the first day then got over it. Sito you better bring this man some more fish meat over pretty quick.
Kyle really? You’re sideways with Roger because you can’t keep your mouth shut. Most of the time guys don’t care what you think. We all know you where the greatest guy in the world to Roger from your account of the friendship but, it clearly wasn’t Rogers. I don’t think Roger was about to get in line.
Lol hell no Roger ain't getting in line....he's about to make Mrs. Sito here tow the line though.
You should have taken him some channel cat Kyle
Lol, you guys are cracking me up, get in line you bunch of Dr Phil’s. Maybe you’d like to chime in about all of our relationships with our country neighbors.
Takes bait to catch a channel. Lol just kidding Sito. I hope you guys get stuff sorted.
Oh good gosh y'all need to learn to relax and have a little fun....y'all can dish it but get your panties in wad when we give it back. They're neighbors so I'm sure it will get worked out.
I’m sure Dr Phill has someone that can help Kyle get through this, it will be ok Kyle
There you go Sito...I like you better this way instead of complaining. "Gonna be a great season"....that's what I like to hear.
Guy posts that many pics of crappie but only brings channel cat. I can see a problem building.
Nice to see Kyle getting back atop the jerk-of-the-month club. I know it hurts his feelings, so, though. :-)
I like Kyle being on the top of the list!! At least he is pretty intelligent and passionate about something as opposed to the guys who go with the flow than complain what has happened to the great bow hunting. Hint is has gone to hell because of the baiting and the crossbows and guys who claim to to want what is best for the sport, yet support all the wrong things! Shawn
Well Scooby Doo I sure hope you are at least a recurve shooter cause if you're a compounder like me then we have no room to talk about xbows in my opinion. The great bowhunting went away when compounds was invented. There's a lot more options on the compound that made it awhole lot easier to kill a deer. As far as baiting...I've probably killed more bucks without baiting than using it but I don't feel anymore of a special hunter because of it. We're humans and our intelligence level is so much greater than an animal we should never brag or downgrade another human on how the animal is taken. When you become a man you put away childish ways and when you think you're pretty special cause you killed an animal a certain way you're a child.
LOL....nope you ain't quite got there little Sito. I know you're trying real hard to be a man and a hunter. You're about there on being a hunter but have a ways to go on the other. But I have faith in you and you don't give up little buddy.
I think Roger Ray felt Something.
Maybe Kyle didn’t feel somthing !!
The title of this thread “Non Resident Perspective” has always made me laugh. They are Non Residents....who the hell cares what their perspective is!
"They are Non Residents....who the hell cares what their perspective is!"
KDWPT!
Well I've already bought land up there and thinking about retiring up there but I sure hope y'all don't rub off on me where I treat people in a bad way.
I think that might be a requirement
Haha it’s gettin mean on here Clip
Frank the people that live in my area where I hunt seem to be decent folk. I know my landowner is good as gold and the rancher that owns a whole lot of land on 2 sides of the property I bought is very nice as well. Quiet tough old man that just him and his wife take care of all the cows and all the work it takes to keep everything going. I constantly see him and his wife out working rain or snow. Get this feeling when I'm around him he's not the type to judge people and would do anything to help you out. My kind of people right there and super blessed to have him as a neighbor. So Frank there is some good folk up there.
I can’t wait to get into my railcar and do some hunting
Pretty cool contraption...do you ever have to run out snakes or other undesirable creatures out of there?
Looks like a fine place to have intermingling with rats, coons, and opossums.
Looks a lot like a railroad car that I drive by often. What part of the state are ya hunting in?
Never have issues with critters. I’m in Sumner County. You can’t see it from the road.
Not the same railroad car then. Neat little blind for sure!
Kansas cancels State Fair and is looking at other closures. Nail biting time for hunters wishing you visit I bet.
I don't mind having to quarantine....especially after I get up there. I would be like "well baby I can't come home cause they're making me stay here for 2 months now"
The quarantine thing is happening in most states. My group and friend is still going to NM to hunt antelope and bear. The outfitter told the guy with the bear tag to come anyway, and our rancher is letting us stay in an old rock ranch house in the middle of 5,000 acres. We're just going to stay out of town and avoid everyone. NM quarantine verbiage basically says you can stay as long or as little as you like but they don't want you going out in public. Heck, if it got real bad, I could get to the ranch cutting across the corner of KS/OK/Colorado through the canyons on dirt roads.
be-still, you may be a man but a pretty piss poor example. Sorry but mine is only opinion as is yours but we all know what a opinion is like!! To me it is about the sport and to condition an animal to come to an exact spot is not sport it is killing and not hunting, there is a difference but I doubt you have the intellect to know the difference!! What a joke!! Shawn
I have never seen the difference between corn and people setting up on trails that are used every day by herds of deer entering food plots and ag fields. Hunt nothing but wild with no man made food sources or shut up
I would like to play poker with Frank
I would like to play poker with Frank
I would like to play poker with Frank
You can sit on my corn field all season, have 25 deer on it, and not a single buck in bow range. Field hunting a small property can be near impossible with the wrong prevailing winds compared to sitting on a pile of bait
Doesn’t wind blow everywhere
When you hunt bear will it be over bait
To you Shawn....that's where me and you are different. I don't consider it a sport but a passion and a love of being in the woods I can't put in words. I'm not going in detail about my personal alone hunts cause I'm not stooping that low but I've shot a lot of bucks in Missouri and a few in Oklahoma and even in Texas where no bait was involved. Sito doesn't believe this and has basically called me a liar which I so wish I could meet him one day and let him call me that face to face. But back to hunting....passion is you find yourself sitting in the tree and feel tears running down your cheek and you know its not because of sadness....passion is taking your 11yr old son out of school and taking him to Missouri to hunt 10 days straight waking every morning and getting in the woods before sunrise and be out there till dark passing good deer but trying for an older deer that he's wanting to shoot. And on the same trip you have your beloved father that you love so much and he wanted to come along and hunt too cause he knew he didn't have many seasons left in him. He had gotten so old that he couldn't control his bowel movements so I was having to clean up crap at his hunting spots where I left him to hunt and also clean the truck cause he would get a little on the seats. I would look back in the rearview mirror and my son would be either holding his nose or have his nose close to the Gatorade bottle top to hide the smell. I would look at my dad and I know he was embarrassed but I could tell through his eyes he was sacrificing that for one of the last hunts he was on with his son and grandson. That's passion my friend out of an old man that could barely get around.....I could go and on but the simple fact is I hope you know the difference between passion and sport. And if you don't then go ahead and call yourself a sportsman and I'll call myself a man. You want to squabble and buff up your chest your chest over a few pieces of corn on the ground which is very small to the big picture of life...and you and Sito give off the hint that ya'll could pop off or threaten someone by him saying "burned at the stake''. All I say to that if I feel threatened face to face ya'll better pray that ya'll are men as well....cause ya'll will get to know passion pretty quick. Love mankind and treat people with respect my friend.
I've had several opportunities to hunt bear and it doesn't appeal to me at this time.
Sorry man I thought I seen a post going to New Mexico to elk and beer hunt. And I never said I sit over feeders
"The outfitter told the guy with the bear tag to come anyway"...…"the guy" is not me. I'll be hunting antelope.
And Shawn I don't know your age....I'm 45 and if your old enough to be my dad you don't have to pay too much attention to the post above. Should have gotten your age and I didn't mean to show any disrespect.
Be Still....grow a spine and stand by your comments in your post no matter the age of the person that they were intended for. After all, they are your thoughts and beliefs, right? No need to back peddle and retract your statements/beliefs on account of possibly hurting someone’s feelings. Leave that to the Millennials
As a result, most on here (including myself) will respect you a whole lot more and or what you have to say/add to this KS Forum. Heck, as a non-resident participant on this Forum you’re already treading water. Why make it worse for yourself?
Now I should be clear, I agree 100% with Shawns beliefs on NO BAIT hunting and practice/hunt the same. Shawn-Scooby Doo is a GAM. I am sure he can take the comments you volleyed his way and I expect a rebuttal soon from him to you. Good Luck!
I assumed he was referring to his comments about beating people up..... didn't want to threaten an old man. I'm excited to see the response now.
Mr. Wenzel I'm not sure of your age but I have a feeling you're older but my beliefs is that I am supposed to respect my elders. Now if Shawn here is closer to my age then I'm not backtracking any. And Patrick I was referring to the remark " burned at the stake" made by Sito and him referring to me as a liar. It's easy to say that over this forum here but yeah face to face and if I feel threatened then that's different. But yeah it makes me feel bad if I'm too rude to an elderly man....just way it is. For the people that don't understand this I don't what else to tell you.
I’m 63 is the that elderly? People on here are rude to me hell im rude to them lol. Don’t worry about anything this whole site is a rude contest most the time I think thats why everyone I on here. The other sites are boring lol
Oh now Frank I'm exactly with you on that... I don't mind talking smack to the elderly if they want me to and everybody is doing it. One day I'm going to be older than I am now and I'll want to have fun with the younger generation. I don't know you but I like you and your comments makes it fun and makes me laugh.
We should try to not be rude to anyone. We are all bowhunters. Some of us just get hungry on the stand and have to bring more snacks than others.
You’re such a purist Patrick. I kind of understand I fished lake fork in Texas in the eighties and nineties we would drive down fish Saturday and half a day Sunday and come back for work I thought I was a purist because I refused to use live bait. They use a bit down there on big fish. One day temps dropped we bought a dozen water dogs by the end of the day a purist no more. We caught 72 fish that day with 8 fish between 7 and 10 lbs I used water dogs a lot after that. Do what makes you happy buddy just don’t expect everyone to believe the same as you then get mad when they don’t. Life’s to short man
lol I do like to eat corn.
I ain’t mad at folks that do. Just trying to make Kansas Hunting great again.
It is buddy maybe it’s your expectations that are wrong. I think baiting is universal but I know the years we did it it was a time thing when your a nr you’re time may be limited we could only hunt four to six days out of the entire season some years unlike some who can hunt ninety days straight!! So you did what you could do to increase your chances doesn’t mean we killed all the damn deer
Is this you nonresidents’ perspective?
I don’t and never have cared about inches I was born with all I would ever need. There deer that’s all and there are a lot more now than in a long time we never seen deer when I was a kid they were pretty rare now they’re everywhere
Patrick I don’t know if you’re doing this for Sito to like you or what but don’t worry about it
I shoot small buck too. Just wouldn’t mind seeing some make it to 5 every once in a while. Let 3 year olds walk the last two years and haven’t had a crack at a mature buck in a while on pretty decent private ground. Maybe I just suck but maybe it’s not as good as it used to be.
I really think Kansas is about to ban baiting but when they do this forum is going to get boring quick.
A lot more hunters with a lot better equipment I’d hate to be a deer nowadays I killed deer most my life because I love the outdoors and I liked to eat them , there not at the top of my list any more I guess I still like to get out there and experience it but don’t work to hard at it anymore
Sito already likes me and it has nothing to do with my desire for improved hunting conditions. Thanks tho Frank. Join the KBA. I will put you on some nice does when you are here this fall. They don’t have any inches.
If they ban baiting then we can bitch at the guys hunting plowed crops. Same thing
We can fight about other stuff be still. No shortage of people bickering. Almost feels like Facebook a lot of days.
We can fight about other stuff be still. No shortage of people bickering. Almost feels like Facebook a lot of days.
Wheel of fortune is on I gotta go
You asked if you were elderly earlier, Frank. You may have just answered your own question.
Cherney...I would guess that the non-residents that hunt only or primarily public land would very much agree with the authors opinion in that article you provided via link. Thought it was interesting that the author said "a few short years later, the area was a bust. Most visiting bowhunters started pulling 2- and 3-year-old bucks from the once-hot spot left and right. Why? Because a young Kansas buck with good genetics is an outstanding deer for bowhunters traveling from states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and the like. But, by Kansas standards, such bucks are just beginning to show potential. Shooting them has caused age class and deer numbers to suffer." He is right on with that statement. Non-res. should be aware that Okla. is the up in coming P&Y and B&C state they should be focusing on right now....not KS or Iowa.
Be Still.....you just might be right about this forum following a baiting ban. I hope this recent CWD news about an eastern area of the State wakes the wildlife commissioners the heck up that baiting "statewide" (private and public) should indeed be prohibited! Prohibiting commercially pen raised deer/elk is another fight in itself. The August KDWP&T Commissioners meeting ought to be interesting.
Bodyman….I too fished Lake Fork in the late 80's and early-mid 90's. Caught my biggest largemouth (10.5 lbs) from there while in a 2-man boat rigged with trolling motors at front and rear. Caught her on a black and blue metal flake "hog craw" in approx. 16 ft. deep water of flooded timber. Couldn't get to the local bait shop quick enough to get her weighed. They wanted to keep her for their "Lonestar Lunker Program" to milk her of eggs for re-stocking.....but I declined. Looking back now, I wish I did give her to them and just had a fiberglass replica made from her measurements.
I never kept a single fish outta that lake and prob caught my top ten best fish out of it hell of a lake back then. As far as okla goes more feeders and poachers down here than you’ve ever seen but our deer herd seems real strong
I never kept a single fish outta that lake and prob caught my top ten best fish out of it hell of a lake back then. As far as okla goes more feeders and poachers down here than you’ve ever seen but our deer herd seems real strong
Wait till the word gets out on Oklahoma if it hasn’t already
We have Decent deer not as big bodies that’s what I all ways liked about ks a gutted buck weighing 200 lbs or better I’ve seen them go 280 field dressed up there
Oklahoma has the same bucks Kansas has. The owners of YETI shot a 217" that jumped the fence from my friend's ranch to their's 2 years ago. My friend has a 190" he shot in the late 90's. About that same time, he had a buck that fit the description of the 'Kansas King' living on his ranch that he saw twice.
Average body size is smaller Jason especially the farther south and east
I could probably believe that but our Kansas deer aren't all huge. Some of the older bucks I've shot were kind of small in body. I've seen a 100 lb difference in bucks the same age
I don't age deer well and make no claim to know a deer's age by looking at them, but I agree with the sentiment that body size varies greatly in KS. I live in the country and get to see deer most days. There can be huge difference between bucks with similar sized antlers. Of course the smaller body sized buck with the same framed antlers as the bigger bodied buck "looks" huge, but it's deceiving. I've sometimes wondered if this didn't account for ground shrinkage for a few hunters...
I known guys that shoot monster bucks consistently in OK since the late 90's. They kept their secret better than we did!
Yes your definitely right on that....back in 2017 my first year I was up there I passed up on this one cause his body looked small from the tree and I thought he was 3 or 4. Next year I realized I was wrong on his age cause his horns looked to be shrinking a little.
My in-laws have had some really great leases in ok and shoot great deer if you’re looking for a rack I’ve shot a lot of does in ks with bigger bodies and heavier than most all there bucks. I would say average weigh down here might be 150
Oklahoma buck. I think you get the idea.
I’m not talkin horns I’m talking weight and body mass a couple of those dont look over 150lbs
