Contributors to this thread:
Looks like night vision is seriously being considered again for coyote hunting.
Thoughts?
Only Jan 1 - March 31.
Important part of the deal.
Lots of guys are already using them.
I don’t know Mike if I like that any better, but good to know.
Why did they choose those dates?
Not sure, but it's a time when a lot of ranchers are calving so they may want the opportunity. Also after the majority of the deer seasons. It's also a time when game wardens aren't as busy as in the fall.
Some like the idea of having legal hunters out at night, as a deterrent to poachers who otherwise had the nights to themselves.
While I'd sure like to participate, have hunted predators at night in TX a few times and it was a whole other world, I'm not sure it's a good idea here? Obviously there will be some who take advantage of the situation and cheat...just like all other hunting. On the other hand it will certainly change the dynamics of the deer herd and other game that we pursue, will be interesting to see what changes in fawn production etc. are gained.
Is there a formal proposal Mike that you know of, or is this just discussion thus far? I assume coyotes only, and no other furbearers?
Is there some old liar who's son works for a thermal image scope company pushing agenda? Who will be the first to develop a failure pile or lick for Coyotes ;?)
Mike,
Could it also have something to do with the coyotes being more visible and moving as they search for mates during the breeding/denning time?
Kyle,
I have to admit I used a failure pile on numerous occasions with coyotes, in the form of a dead cow carcass. The LO I hunted on would drag any dead cows out of the pasture. I would have him drag it near a suitable tree and hang a portable. It wasn't really hunting, but the LO appreciated the dead dogs for sure. Always wondered though if the yotes were killing as many calves during birthing as ranchers thought or they were just cleaning up the after-birth?
I’ve been around cattle my whole life. My father runs about 150 head. I asked him the other day and he said he cannot say that he’s ever lost a calf to coyotes.
There’s a local coyote hunter that swears they lose calves every year. He makes sure he calls the neighbors every time he thinks one was killed by yotes. Maybe, I don’t know.
My understanding Kyle is this is a discussion at the June meeting with a vote at the August meeting.
I don’t like it, but not having it all year long is a plus, wish it was a little later... although I know once it’s allowed they will make it more liberal in the future.
My friend that owns 5,000 acres on the Cimarron River lost 2 calves in the 2 days I was there last year to help with the spring sorting. Both were new calves alive the evening I arrived and both were eaten the next morning.
I have rancher friends that won't let you shoot their coyotes. Their theory is that their packs aren't predatory on calves and if you kill them, you may bring in packs that target calves. Of course, this was the same guy that told me hawks were good and only ate mice and rabbits and not the pheasant and quail we were hunting...
I never understood why people hated yotes so much I kinda like to watch them in forty years we never lost any kind of livestock to them. They have a place to in the circle of life
We've never lost a calf to a yote that I'm aware of, but I have witnessed them following the herd and drag off afterbirth. I imagine an abandoned calf would be an opportunity for a yote. We had a cow give birth to twins last year. She butted one away and took the other with her. Had that one been left alone overnight it wouldn't have survived. He turned out to be a good bottle calf.
I do remember my dad saying he never lost any of his cattle to coyotes south of Eureka but our ranching friends did in the sparsely populated hills north of town. He bought a .243 to shoot them out of the truck nonetheless.
I lived in Colo last two winters. Have a friend that has coyote hunting access to 100,000s acres in eastern colo. I hunted with him a number of times. Night hunting with lights is legal on private land. We were hunting on large cattle/wheat ranches. The ranchers say they do loose some calves to coyotes. Didn’t see that directly, but don’t doubt it. We killed a lot of coyotes, about 30 per winter, all called in, 90% at night. A couple times we called in mule deer, at night. It was pretty easy to tell what they were and not take the shot. But if you’re not paying attention or get real excited, one could kill a deer. We were checked once by game warden, no issues. Bottom line, it’s a lot more effective way to call/kill coyotes at night. Does it lead to deer poaching, I don’t know. But it sure could.
Next door neighbor had a new calf that crawled under a fence and the cow stood there bawling while yotes ate it 5 feet from her. We have on film in recent years yotes killing adult bucks. Two years ago every time the lake froze over yotes would run deer onto the ice and devour them overnight. Please don't tell me they do not kill calves.
No one is saying they don’t kill calves.
I just don’t think it’s as major an issue as some would believe.
We are supposed to be killing as many deer as possible right? At least that’s what the legislature wants... so why are we trying to kill the most effective deer predator?
Deer population is out of control correct? So what’s the motivation here? Who is pushing this?
Define “major issue?”
A good friend in Elk County lost several one spring and drove up on a cow trying to drive a coyote away from her new calf.
He got KSU extension, Charle Lee, to come out and teach him more about calling and snares. Killed a truly unbelievable amount in a two square mile area that year.
Big quail operations in Texas usually don’t allow people to shoot coyotes because they eat nest predators.
Most large hawks eat enough big, egg-eating snakes to earn a quail or two.
My charge nurse had an interesting story for me this morning. She was riding her horse yesterday along a field on the edge of Andover when she came upon two large coyotes watching a family on the sidewalk about 50 yards away. She said the coyotes didn't really spook but just hunkered down in the hedgerow as she rode by. She said it was alarming how intently they watched the little kids, one of which was disabled, and it was broad daylight. They were completely unafraid of her and her horse.
Why did they hunker down then Now they’re stalking kids
Everything is situational I guess. Very limited experience with coyotes killing calves around here. Perhaps it’s easier in the West for them to pick them out? Any calf lost is lost money, I get that and believe me in these challenging times we don’t need any more lost revenue.
Good to know he killed an unbelievable amount by hunting them the right way. So why allow night vision?
Ray, do you take Kansas Farmer magazine, or online. There's an article on coyotes and livestock in Kansas coming. I'll try to get a link, if it's not already out.
A few facts from the article.
That rancher and friends, killed 53 coyotes in an area two miles by two miles. Most of it is super-rich with wildlife, as is such managed, which helps. Also, the rancher is one of the best all-around hunters/trappers in Kansas. KSU extension's top wildlife specialist also spent some time with him.
I also have a good friend who killed, over 120 in a 12 month period on his 2,500 acres. Those farms are scattered in Anderson, Linn and Miami counties, so none are that far from you. Most have been caught in the hundreds of snares he runs along fence lines. His land contains good farm ground, but he's also created some of the best deer habitat in eastern Kansas.
Coyote populations are 3X what they were in the 1980s.
Coyotes have put some sheep and goat operations out of business.
The wildlife specialist for the K-State Extension Service gets about 200 calls a year about livestock predation. Most are coyotes. That doesn't mean all are legit. Some are about livestock that died from other causes and coyotes have gotten blamed. The same for livestock killed by dogs.
"in 2010 U.S.D.A. National Agricultural Statistics Service showed 1,600 sheep and lambs were lost to predators Kansas. Their figures showed a loss of 800 Kansas cows and 3,900 calves lost to predators."
The wildlife specialist at the center of the article, Charlie Lee, is very highly respected and good at what he does.
I'm pretty neutral on night vision and hunting at night. I see the concerns of game wardens but know they often tend to be too conservative. It's their job. Their way of thinking. The three month season seems to show some thought and compromise has gone into this.
Honestly, I'm surprised the legislature hasn't already rammed this thing through, anyway.
A few years ago I believe it was KSU that did a 2 year or so Prairie Chicken study in Chase County. A rancher friend of mine said a lot of the study was done on property he was running. He told me that he was told that perhaps 10% of the nest actually hatched as predators destroyed most of the others, and coyotes were by far the largest culprit. Writer with your knowledge you might be able to find this study. If what I was told is true. The decline in Greater Prairie Chicken numbers in this area could at least be partially due to increased coyote populations.
I stand corrected Mike, I was not aware we had that many confirmed predations. You already know this, but when I started hunting in 1981 in MI, it was generally thought coyotes east of the Mississippi were not present or very sparse. I never saw one there through 1984. So I believe you about the population growing three fold.
Most of it is super-rich with wildlife, as is such managed, which helps.
Yep, we have noticed a significant presence of predators since developing better habitat recommended to us by MDC. Not only coyotes, foxes and bobcats, more opossums, racoons, skunks and birds of prey. They are opportunists just like us I am convinced.
Yesterday I passed by a 200 acre hay field that was just mowed. I observed 3 hawks and 5 vultures directly over it.
Thanks for the info.
One last point, Ryan, KSFlatlander, has convinced me there is a role for these predators though, including wolves. All must be controlled though. The forester I mentioned that checked my woods yesterday that we are going to TSI, he parked his truck adjacent to the 4 acre food plot where it is next to the NG and timber that had been layered a few years back, and immediately kicked up two fawns. Good habitat brings in the predators, but that same habitat seems to also help the prey animals remain better protected via not being detected or more effective escape cover, at least I hope.
I have not seen that article Mike, so if you can post a link I would appreciate it.
I didn’t realize it was that huge of a problem in some areas... a calf killed here and there is one thing destroying a business is another.
I would like to see the data on the predation of livestock.
How does it compare to the crop damage caused by deer?
It seems to me that everything is out of whack... can’t kill enough deer to keep the legislature happy and now can’t kill enough of the predators that do a dang good job of helping control the deer population?
Seems we are walking a fine line.
I do not like the timing, personally. If it was March/April I would fee better about it, but I fear once it’s allowed then they will continually expand it.
Their motto seems to be... Give ‘me an inch.
Simple reason for more coyotes now than 1980, people can't hunt them. Back in the 70's all you needed was a CB Radio and a rifle and people shot coyotes where ever they stood. No worries of trespassing or running on someone's lease. Saturday mornings was a convoy of coyote hunters prowling the country side. Coyotes have benefited greatly from purple paint and leasing. The mismanagement and commercialization of one species leads to major problems of another. So pick your poison: Lease your 30,000 acres to an outfitter for cash money and watch coyotes numbers increase or put your 30,000 acres in WIHA or grant permission to several residents to hunt on your land. Almost every problem we have in Kansas Hunting goes back to the management and legislation of deer hunting. The problem is not too many coyotes but too little access. For example, a local landowner here leases all his ground to 6 people from Colorado. They come for 1 week in September and then another week in November. 2 weeks of the year. The other 50 weeks no one enters that land. Nothing is hunted on this property but deer. Maybe this indirectly has also contributed to the decline of Turkeys.
I remember in the 70s and 80s coyote hunters with dog trucks would run them from section to section seen them a lot back then. I’m like you Clip miss the good ole days I can say I’ve changed though I don’t hate yotes anymore I’ve shot some through the year but think there fun to watch in the wild. If there doing damage than maybe they need taken out but they do have there place
I agree Body. Love seeing them. It wasn't that long ago that you would rarely see one out here. Once the deer leasing took off so did the coyotes. "It seems to me that everything is out of whack... can’t kill enough deer to keep the legislature happy and now can’t kill enough of the predators that do a dang good job of helping control the deer population?" Legislature is why predators are on the rise. If Bass Pro would pay you $30K for a P&Y Coyote you can bet Kansas Legislature would cash in. All you would see is mangy coyotes, kinda like little 80 inch deer.
You know it never bothered me back then not deer hunting ks because I was a bird hunter first and could always hunt ok for deer but the people we new and met in Ks become close friends when they opened it up for nr deer attitudes sure changed I never understood that
Bodyman....per those dog trucks nothing like a good ole “kill dog” that comes in at the end of the greyhound chase and quickly dispatches the Yote!
Where I hunt in SCEK my rancher friends have told me they don’t see the yotes as a threat and allow me to hunt them when I ask. The closest I have ever seen the yotes get to their calves/cattle is during calving and on in to early Spring. However, at that time the yotes aren’t interested in the calves near as much as they are at lapping up the fresh milk that pools up to the top of cow patties.
Jason I shot yotes years ago I think my Thinking has changed as far as killing just because I can Know what I mean
Frank....do you have a clear position on hunting/killing coyotes?
Crested you could go run your greyhounds through his property for a couple a weeks, but you would run those deer off those feeders. Not taking a jab at Habitat, but that is the general philosophy of people these days. Especially leasers and outfitters. People don't want anyone disrupting their deer and taking a chance of pushing them onto someone else's property. People own them, feed them, and name them. They know to the nearest 1/4 inch how much they score by a picture and have their birth certificates.
I’m not against killing them I just don’t think it needs to be on a scale that’s not limited. There’s a reason the good lord put them here and in a purely wild setting I think they are probably beneficial more than harmful
Clip I haven’t even seen any of my deer lol in three years didn’t put in for tag this year and kinda glad I didn’t with all the crap going on. Maybe next year if the coyotes don’t kill em all
PS we don’t lease or hunt other people’s land best friend has 260 acres in SE KS and we don’t cross fences stay to our selfs . Unless we go to the Dollar Store haha
Dang Jeff I guess I'm breaking all the rules cause I've been naming them too...starting to wonder if I can even call myself a hunter anymore.
Jason W,
I agree with bodyman. Like all wildlife they need to be in check, so I do take them when opportunity exists but do not specifically hunt them. I have no problem with folks that do. Coyotes and roaches will be here after man probably, LOL. I had 2 yotes come close to the cabin about 3 years ago and kept getting braver and were messing with my labs. I took one out and did not have any more problems with them after that.
Clipper, they are not my deer, they belong to all of us, or the state if you will. I don't name them, or even try and guess their score. I stay on my property, and have shared my land with others. But yes, I am strict about a low impact approach on only 120 acres so no pushing deer, or smoking, things like that. I could not even keep does on only my property no matter how hard I tried, let alone bucks that have something like a 3 mile home range during non-rut periods, and much larger during the rut.
I have a sign at my cabin that reads; 'Habitat for Wildlife Farms-Dedicated to the Conservation of Missouri's Native Wildlife'.
Habitat I know your a good man. Just in general, people think they own them. We were reminded of that a while back with a court decision. Low impact, zero impact,,,, people in general are very protective when it comes to deer. That is why we have a coyote explosion. It's not like all of sudden Kansas developed the Utopia of coyote habitat. People can't hunt them like they did before 1995 and coyotes can live anywhere, as can a feral cat. They are not hunted or pressured so they thrive.
One of my best hunts was turkey hunting out of a blind made of cedar trees and called up a yote that jumped on my decoy I kept calling and he literally ran into the blind with me and my wife I had to stand up and yell to scare him off . I guess I called pretty good that day but I’ll never forget that hunt
I used to go after them hard with my mouth calls from January to March but haven't done that in years as well. Don't think they get as deer as some think...got a place in northwest Texas that is super thick with coyotes but the deer population is good out there. Seems like the 30 something days I spent last deer season in Kansas I noticed a lot more coyotes and hunters than in previous years....but seen a lot more bigger bucks than in previous years as well....so we'll see....coyotes definitely to be managed though and are happy for the people that hunt them.
Thank you Clipper. The low impact is basically to keep wildlife feeling secure there so we have something to hunt. Steve, Genesis, told me once that keeping pressure minimized did more for him than plots and other habitat projects. I noticed he was right. A person I took hunting a lot would get bored after a couple of hours and just start walking the woods. He smoked all the time. Once I quit taking him, we saw a lot more wildlife the next season.
Guys that manage huge properties probably do get upset when a neighbor shoots "their" deer. With only 120 acres, the only deer I claim is the one I am standing over.
Thanks again.
Running coyotes brings back a story my brother told me about my crazy late grandfather who owned about a thousand acres south of Eureka back in the 60's. Apparently some coyote hunters had a spotter in a plane telling them on a radio where the coyotes were. They trespassed on my grandfather's property chasing a coyote and in the frenzy, managed to run a cow through the fence. Grandpa had to put her down due to her injuries. He was so mad, my brother said he pulled a pump action Remington. 308 out and started shooting at the plane. They were lucky because he was known to have shot several prairie chickens flying with a .22.
Two ft off the ground I’ve hunted chickens BS shouting them with a 22
Clip I know you bird hunt ever shot a fourth mile a hour chicken with a 22
I meant fourty mile a hour chicken
I have never shot anything with a .22.
An observation while cutting wheat. In each field I cut I counted multiple active coyote dens in the tops of terraces.
One 80 acre field had 4... in that same field I kicked up a couple of fawns not far from those dens.
Thorton....how long was your Gpa’s “rap sheet”? Assume he made a bunch of other wise decisions like that throughout his life?
Tells us that you didn't mess with the old man.
Only thing he ever got in trouble for was beating the crap out of a neighbor. The guy kept leaving the valve open on the canal that bordered my grandpa's other ranch in El Centro Valley California. He warned the guy numerous times because it flooded my grandpa's alfalfa. The guy did it again, he went to his house, dragged him off the porch, and gave him a fair beating. The guy complained and grandpa went before the judge who fined him $50. Reportedly, Grandpa looked at the judge, slammed $50 down and demanded "ARE YOU DONE?" and stormed out of the court. The same guy and my dad used to rope wild horses in the desert out of a Willy's Jeep. Not to mention Ben Johnson and several other movie stars would come to their ranch to practice cowboying when they weren't making western movies. Body man keep drinking. Maybe it'll help you spell better. My guess is you couldnt hit a yard chicken standing in front of you're so drunk.
