Contributors to this thread:
Starting a new thread for trail cam pics. Antler growth thread is off the rails.
Nice Patrick. Hopefully have some to add to this next weekend
Not a trailcam pic but it still shows growth stage.
Some good looking deer fellas!
Not a lot of velvet pics Patrick but, these are some of bucks that made it through hunting season
Slate...some good “potential” on all those 2019 survivor bucks. In a few years, you may have a couple of worthy shooters from that large pool of survivors.
Yes I agree Jason. It was a good 4 day break from the crazy world. I enjoyed being back in Kansas checking cameras, moving a couple of stands, and visiting friends. I was really happy knowing this buck made it through.
Some good bucks Todd. What county/counties do you hunt?
Took a little while to figure it out but this is the same buck I posted above. Let me know if you think different. Amazing how they go from what you think is going to be an 8 pointer to a 10 pointer in a couple of weeks.
Here is another pic of the first buck I posted the pic of.
Looks pretty damn close. It’s a dandy with still a lot of growing to do.
At first glance, I didn't think so, but the hole in the right ear was how I knew.
Doesn’t look like a young one to me pretty mature
Guessing he was 3 or 4. This pic makes him look a little older than he really is.
Here he was on November 4th. At one point as I was snapping pics of him from my tree stand he was about 12 yards so I got a good look at him.
That's a really nice buck! Kudos for passing on him, many don't have the intestinal fortitude to let a deer like that walk (maybe me included).
What makes you think he’s 3? How old do you want them to get? 6?
What makes you think he’s 3? How old do you want them to get? 6?
Good for you Calhoun. Hope he made it through and gives you an opportunity.
Calhoun.....I think you made the right decision to pass that one up. I would have too.... which is the primary reason I haven’t sent an arrow in flight at a buck in over 3 yrs. now.
My wife gives me a hard time these days after I come home from hunting with nothing but pics and videos of the many bucks I could have easily shot. Nowadays, she doesn’t ask me if I am going hunting....she asks me if I am going “window shopping.” So, one of these days I hope to call her from the tree stand and let her know I made a PURCHASE, HA!
Yeah Patrick on that day I thought maybe 3 but through the season after I got a lot of pics of him I'm really thinking he's 4 now. But yeah I like to hold off till they're 5 and 6 would even be better if I could. Slate that other 4 yr Old I had up close last year a couple times is quite a bit bigger than this one so I hope my boy has a chance to get this one...got so much history with the other one I would like to try and get him. Would show a few pics of him but there's been some poaching in the past I heard up there so I don't really want to show him on here.
Lol Jason mine does the same thing to me. She's always ready for me to come home so she doesn't like it either when I tell her I passed another good one. But here lately I think she knows by now when I leave to go up there there's no telling when I'm coming back.
This one here was right at dark when he was in front of me so I couldn't tell his age but his body didn't look big right then. Could tell he was a main frame 12 and probably would have shot him anyway if his left side would have been as tall as his right side.
Mr. Braun you would have probably passed him if you would have been in my shoes this past season. Like everybody knows I bait up there so it makes it easier so I'm not pretending I'm somebody I'm not... thinking seriously about getting back to way I used to hunt though and not use bait.
Mature bucks don't visit failure piles during daylight, everyone knows that right?
Lol, I may or may not have pulled the trigger on him. I've passed on bigger and shot smaller. It all depends on how the situation strikes me. With that said I am prone to pass a buck like that if I suspect he's young. I have several youtube videos from just last season of deer that I didn't even consider putting my phone down for. Passing is easy because I get to hunt another day...
Yeah Kyle you hinted that you have neighbors that feed and you don't. I respect that and you're a better man for that and I'm a little embarrassed to say that I'm not quite to that point yet...maybe pretty soon though
Hinted? I'd bet 90% of so called hunters in KS cheat with bait. It has nothing to do with who's a "better man"...everything to do with who's a hunter and who isn't.
P.S. I thought this was a thread to show trail cam pics from this year...what happened?
Lol yeah there's different degrees of hunters...that's for sure. Right now in Kansas you're more of a hunter than I am...but the guy that uses a long bow and stalks them could say the same thing to you. lol I drew Iowa this year too so I guess o can call myself a hunter there this year...won't be using bait there.
There’s more non-baiters out there than you think Kyle, not to derail this thread though.
Some great bucks everybody! And Calhoun, you definitely have some good ones to look forward to; I’m not big on blasting people who bait, but I do think you’re right, you’ll get a lot more enjoyment out of your time up here if you don’t.
Thank you James...yeah I talk to the landowner the other day about the possibility of taking off all the feeders. Here's another young slick 10 I think has potential this year...seen him a whole lot too.
Sorry Kyle....no disrespect on the thread but I like to see pics no matter if it was last year. Not going to show all of them or the ones on the other places where other hunters hunt out of respect for them.
Another even younger one that's very similar to the one above but has longer brow tines.
I went after this old one the last few days of the season but didn't get him... his horns are starting to decline and I should have done the right thing and went after him a little earlier.
That is going to be a good one
Alright Kyle....I was just showing a few from last year I'm pretty sure is still alive. You're as picky as a dang woman....lol we might just have to wrestle after all...roll around in the dirt so you get some anxiety out.
I like to wait until they're at least 10-12yrs old, and that's how I do it ya see...I wrestle them to the ground each year and measure their teeth, so far it's been pretty accurate.
Lol dang Kyle....you're definitely one of a kind and at least you make this forum a little more exciting.
Sito: If ya get old and can't bulldog anymore I know a guy at K-State that can help you. AND, please don't throw in any of these damn fractions like 3 and 3/4 or four and a half. A year is a year.
Dave I'm pretty sure the one I haven't sent pics of was born on May 30th of 2015 and scores probably 168 and 3/8. Haven't figured what hour he was born yet so....
The nice thing about Elk and Mule deer hunting is I am generally Hunting an area and I have no idea what to expect, no cameras no food plots no expectations other than what mother nature has in-store for me in the short time I'm there. I use to be addicted to Whitetails, the cameras, the food plots and the chase. Then one day I was talking with some hunting buddies and we recounted how much more fun we have on those 3-5 day Mule Deer hunts and how there is no pressure. This changed my hunting life 15 years ago for the better. I have still killed some nice Whitetails in that time and ran cameras but not like it use to be.
Lol was going to send a few more pics but. Yeah Matt I could see where a person could enjoy that more....but for me nothing gets better than whitetails. About 16 years ago I got lucky and shot a 5x5 bull on public ground in Colorado. I haven't been back since cause it didn't make my heart pound as much as a whitetail. Going back this September to New Mexico to try for Elk and Mule deer so we'll see if anything changes for me. We better quit talking though and just leave this thread open for this years pics of deer before Daddy Sito blows a fuse.
Hope to check cams next weekend. Hope to see some SHOOTERS
Thank you "bestill" your mother and I are very proud of you
lol I knew as soon as I hit submit you were going to take it that way....I know better cause my mother was tougher than you and if you have tried to slip in on my mom it would have just taken one look from my dad and you would crapped your britches.
Justin very nice. Thanks for getting us back on topic.
Yeah Justin that one has put some decent growth on in the last 2 weeks.
I think the 7 point is going to be a stud. He's an old deer.I'm going to let the other 8's and the ten grow for a couple more years.
Sounds like a really good plan to me.
Pulled a few cards this morning...
Sito if that guy looked like that the first of June I would say you would have a winner. If this picture is recent he maybe 80% developed. I hope he grows a lot, lot more.
Kyle can you give us something with in the last day? Come on lol. Great bucks
Some nice ones there...really like the extra brow.
All of those are between 6/21 and 6/30...all different bucks. The sad part is that out of 8 cameras(all different properties) there were these three and maybe 8 more bucks in three months +/-, and none of the others were mature. We've turned a corner and it's on the wrong street.
Any of your spots west of Attica?
Sito maybe I need to take you on a Mule Deer hunt and show you a few herds of Pronghorns.
They all at the bait piles bro. Or they ain't exist.
Nothing West of Attica, though I had a great spot near Sharon for a few years. I may just focus on Muley's this year, and I think you know that I know where the Pronghorn are my friend ;?)
It's a sad state of affairs Pat...literally.
I know you know where they are in your normal area I'm talking in a different direction. I have been seeing some really good herds
Kyle we always got pics of deer we never seen during hunting season and seen a lot of bucks we never got summer pics of
In hard woods like we hunt in south east do the deer move a lot during summer months maybe that would explain it
I agree, we didn't get many good pics in the summer last year on most of our hunting spots. But come October, they began showing up. I get almost as excited in the summer in getting lots of fawns pics as mature buck pics.
Well I'm pretty sure the lack of pics won't keep me from hunting fellas ;?)
Sito do you think they move more in hardwoods
Well Frank I really can't say one way or another, I only have one place with a large stand of timber.
Yeah guys I see the same things on my property. Always seeing different bucks transitioning in and out as the season approaches.
I'm sorry guys, but you ain't smellin what we're steppin in. I've had these cameras in the same spots for as many as 15yrs, only two less than 5yrs.
I am fully aware of deer movement, this ain't that.
I understand what you're saying Kyle, but up until last year, on a place we've had cameras for 6 years, we'd always had bachelor groups on the property, every summer. Last year, zilch. I was really wondering what happened, and then low a behold come October, they showed back up, meaning the same bucks. Dawna and Addison shot two of them last year. That being said, I also understand you have a familiarity with your hunting areas that many people don't have because how long you've hunted them and what's going on around them; I just hope they show back up on some of your spots this fall.
I talked with a game warden early this spring. He said if I was out much to expect to find bucks dead from brain abscess. I found two that weekend, both in the bottoms near water. I cleaned one skull up and sure enough there was a hole near a base. I've seen a lot less older bucks this summer than I usually do.
I guess Kyle since you're running out of bucks you'll just have to come shoot one on one my places.
Appreciated James, and I know that each property is different. The surrounding crops are a little different at a couple of mine, but the majority are the same or better since a lot of crops weren't even planted last Spring, and in some cases the Fall before either(because of flooding). I'm not talking about one property, I'm talking about 8...from 40-320ac spread over a 200mi diameter.
Granted I don't employ failure piles, or sadness spreaders, to create a dump station in the woods and train them to the point of being nothing more than a barnyard animal...but I know where they go and on my spots "they gone".
Do you think the flooding had anything to do with it and maybe they’ll come back through later in the year
Granted I don't employ failure piles, or sadness spreaders, to create a dump station in the woods and train them to the point of being nothing more than a barnyard animal...but I know where they go and on my spots "they gone".
That made me laugh. You’re such a dick lol. What are you thinking Kyle as far as seeing less deer?
Maybe he thinks we’re Dicks LOL
Never known you to piss anyone off Frank.
Never known you to piss anyone off Frank.
Are u a nut they stay mad at me I like u slate I remember when u first came on It was eventful I have to admit And I’m not suckin up kyles kinda alright he ain’t no clipper but he’s close Bet I get more than a L for that LOL
Yeah these Kansas boys are tough on outsiders but it’s all good. They enjoyed the drama but, I settled down some. Frank you’re a character. I always thought good of you.
It's ok Frank, everyone knows that Todd's the authority on male genitalia...just check out his My Space page for some of his special collage's.
Yes that’s what has made us so close Kyle ; ) xoxo Back to the deer what’s your thought on the decline?
Maybe he has made his buck decoys smell and look to pretty....the bucks has had too much fun messing around with them and now they're confused on which side to breed. So therefore no more rut and that has been the cause for the decline in deer numbers.
Maybe it's the atrocious grammar that's killing everything?
Wish you would stop using words I'm not familiar with.
or maybe they are social distancing
I think mature bucks don't like the smelly smell of liver and catfish slime. Ya catch my drift?
Oh well glad it’s not my Property that’s effected.
Really Todd? You made a specific trip here from NJ, to check cameras, and had one dink in velvet right? Out of the 30+ buck pics you made into an afghan, only a handful were mature, none are of the caliber that would get most here to even pick up their bow.
You fellas just don't get it.
There afraid of you sit and came on down to okla where there safe
Kyle I am asking you what you think the issue is and you give me nothing. I agree with you as far as my property. I usually get a handful of mature ones to show up during hunting season. Very few after the season. So if we don’t get it what is it? I’m being serious Kyle.
Too many tags, baiting which = CWD, EHD, and probably a slew of other disease's...take your pick.
Here's the new way to "roll" for some of these so called "hunters". Can you imagine having such low self-worth, and sucking so badly at hunting, that you have to buy a bunk on wheels and fill it with 10k pounds of failure? I mean guys like this think they are actually accomplishing something when they kill a deer...laughable.
No one baits on my connecting properties for bow season but, I know my property and the properties around me have definitely changed with the loss of CRP.
Ole Sito....whatever we goin to do with ya. Sure hope you start seeing more quality bucks.
Stopped at a bridge to shoot fish and these bucks were in the bean field next to it. I counted 12 or 13. Couldn't get my phone to focus through the binoculars
Sorry they didn't show up very well. There were several big ones in the herd
Oh yeah Mr. Braun I really like that one. And that's what I'm talking about Thornton....a good sign there.
Anyone have any recent pics? Can’t check mine for a couple more days. Having withdrawals.
Unless you're using a Spartan, you're educating them. I had a 170"s I educated by accident a few years ago. Now I mostly just use my spotting scope until season starts and I'll be out there anyway.
I have only checked mine once since I put them up in April. I’m sure the cards are full and/or batteries dead on all. I try to only check them every 6 weeks or so. May still be educating them
I never put a cam up where I hunt. I've made many mistakes as a hunter, I hope to be trainable enough to learn from those mistakes... some of them anyway.
Hey guys, new to the forum been reading for a couple years as a NR and just moved a few months back. Fairly inexperienced hunter only 3ish years so still learning with lots to go. So if I screw up posting pics I apologize. New property for me and first time I’ve ever run trail cameras so pretty excited after only have them out for about a week. (Still trying to get the lay of the land and camera angles correctly)
Endless, you just moved to KS? Congrats!
I would say you have a lot to be excited about as a somewhat new hunter on your own property. Good luck this season.
Yeah Endless it looks like you have a good property and looks like you did a good job setting this camera.
Mr. Braun I always thought cameras didn't scare them too much but I could sure be wrong. Out of all the guys on here you seem to be the most humble but at the same time I can tell you have the experience and I know you have the knowledge. Sounds like I might have something to learn on trail cams.
Did that one buck break his beam?
I think it almost looks like stunted growth? But possible it happen when they start coming in? I thought it was interesting to see something different. Curious to see what his horns look like with velvet comes off.
That’s crazy, Endless! I think I have his twin brother running around on my place in Iowa!
I nicknamed him “P Trap”
Ha....perfect name T- Roy.
P-trap lol I like it. Cool bucks guys
This camera is about 20 yards from the edge of the creek. The water got a little deep a few weeks back.
Hopefully this buck turns into something nice
Usually my phone gets filled up with buddies sending pics of bruisers. Not one this year yet. I quit running cams as I found it discouraged me more than it encouraged me to hunt some places. I hope for a fall full of no expectation just thrills of being out there.
Little early to be down on a season months away. Most of the biggest bucks I've hunted didnt show up til November or December
Yeah cameras def don't tell the whole story but, I enjoy checking them. Same with me some of my biggest bucks don't show up until late October early November. I agree Matt either way its just the fun of being out there.
T-Roy I love that name! Never looked at it that way now I can’t unsee it. I did get a good pick of another big boy just trying to figure out the age on him. Any guesses? And if so how do y’all come to your guesses?
I'm guessing his age is between 2 and 8 years old. I come to that estimation because he looks too big to be a 2yr old, and he isn't blind in one eye so I doubt he's older than 8. That's all I've got, but I bet I'm right! :)
It's always just a guess. Some deer blow up in size, others just stay the same for a while. Got this one on camera in 2014, and I'm pretty sure I shot him in 2017.
Endless age is probably 4+ score 140ish after velvet goes and he's done growing for the most part for this season. Slate you seem to have a little older buck my guess would be 6-7 only a guess as we all know.
Matte I would agree but, definitely no expert myself. I love seeing these old bucks and sometimes hope they avoid all of us. It’s fun as hell chasing them though.
That's a nice old buck Slate. :Had one on my farm the first 2 years after I bought it that was nearly an identical 7 pt. To my knowledge, he was never killed. I do know he dodged my arrow one time :)
I'm going to re-ask Endless's question about what gives it away. What are you guys looking at that tells you Slate's pic is of an old buck?
To answer your question, it takes more than a few years to make a 130"s 7 pt. The area of my farm seems to have an infestation of them, and I'd bet that one in Slate's pic is at least 5 years old if not older
Catscratch,
Several things on the deer Slate posted a trail camera picture of dictate things to me that might indicate he is a deer that might have some age to him. Start with the pedicls they expand much tree rings each year, they seem to be 5"+ at the base. The grey patch on the face. The appearance of lose skin at the base of the brisket. However if you ask me it is just an experience thing that is only an opinion.
Thanks guys. This is a new place for me. I think it looks promising.
Very promising! Great pics.
Oh yeah Kyle...I like those. Especially the last one where the main beams are slanting upward...cool looking buck.
Those are some good deer.
I especially like the one with the snow on the mountain in the background. :)
Ha! No snow over there Dale, I thought it looked like a lake but no water either. Be well bud!
That last one is a pig Kyle, love that dagger too!
It can’t be Kansas Kyle because your deer be gone was your last statement
Slate: is your statement supposed to make sense?
I love watching these guys grow! It surprised me to see what a month will do for them.
QDMA claims once velvet is shed, they lose 20%.
I could believe that that, it’s honestly the first year I’ve gotten to watch them grow over the summer with my own eyes and it’s more humbling then I would have thought.
looms good this season
looms good this season
some Elk co. Pics. Letting them walk has paid dividends
looms good this season
looms good this season
some Elk co. Pics. Letting them walk has paid dividends
Might check the stiffness on the legs of that “enormous” feeder. Would hate for one of those legs to collapse and kill your entire deer herd.
That’s a good one Billy...do you have a lot of history with him I guess?
Probably not too hard to let them grow since they're trained to come to a trough.
Yeah that’s a good one Billy. If you kill that buck please post a pic next to the feeder to piss a lot of these guys off. Would be great.
Wouldn't count, not hunting in any sense of the word.
Sito, they are to immature to understand the meaning of hunting.
No one cares what you guys think. Don’t you get that.
Reminds me of a buffet in a small town when they have shrimp peel or fried chicken night
That is really a 400” world record deer. However, due to the enormous “water tower” size of the feeder it just looks like a measly ole low 150’s.
Doesn't even have a "long brow"...fake news
Hell almost everything on here is fake news except what NRs post lol
Got to looking at those deer look like you found sits deer
Classic KS bucks, lookin good!
Yes sir....some good ones there Dustin.
Sito: they are extinct KS bucks, spread the word. At least where I hunt.
Dave there are still a few good ones around, hell you could say that about most any state...but lots of these lesser men have no idea what's been lost.
Great pics of great deer guys!
I have my trailcam within view of the house so I sometimes get to watch the deer getting their pics taken. A few bucks that frequent the area almost never get their pics taken. They either go behind the camera or stay out of range. It's almost uncanny.
This is one of those bucks that got caught in the backgrond scent checking the deer in front of the camera.
Jason you have proof then that some deer don’t like cameras. First year up there I did have 2 mature looking deer on a camera a few times and then they disappeared...could have gotten shot but maybe they didn’t like their pic being taken. I might have to reconsider how I put cameras out in the future.
Yeah Jason I have seen that also. Nice buck.
Disclaimer- I intend to talk nobody out of using cameras, just an observation I've made. Some deer seem to love being in front of a camera.
I've owned my place ten years. Every few years, one or a few big ones show up. These are 150"- 170" bucks. I see them in person on the summer beans but have yet to ever get one on camera, or get one to stay around once early season starts.
I see Flint Oak Ranch has a big'n visiting one of their failure troughs. I was down there earlier this summer and the guide mentioned they only had 4 deer hunters last year.
Thornton...I just don't think I could shoot that buck. He's just all deformed with a weird 3rd side growth thing. And what's with that tankish body..gross. Would not taste good at all. ;)
Pure stud!
Want to play a game?
You have 24hrs to tell me what animal is in this pic...or I will tell you.
Man, the only thing I see is a couple of bug streaks in the flash.
It took me a while to see it as well...
When I post the next frame you should get it, but it may take all three. It's a mammal.
You do not pass go! You do not collect $200!
Yeah close up shot of porcupine.
11:50 pm.....Nice pair of Hooters you got there?
This just in...newsflash...Owl's are not mammals.
Frank(from OK), if you can just guess what day of the week it is, I'll give you a point ;?)
Leave me out of your little game
I can’t see it not on my IPhone
Phone pics from yesterday morning.
Had a text this morning from a buddy in TX, he see's it.
Here's the next frame
No, but getting "warmer"...there's fur involved
Going to have to go with beaver then. Not much "warmer" and nicer fur than a beaver pelt.
Ha! Nope, how bout if I post them back to back...
Dang Sit, I'm stumped! Looks to me like something swimming, long and thin (that's why I said mink or rat). Cat?
Dang I thought I had it...thought in the bottom left corner it was the head of an anteater.
I see it, but cant tell what it is on my phone. Would think couldn't be very many things based on where it's at.
Ok, I guess I didn't see it.
Lol, anteater!
Was it a pair, or was the one in the water a kitten?
Don't think there's one in the water. I put that camera on the log jam to get cat pics, but this and the back end of another(or same) is all I've got so far.
OK, then....I think I see dead people?
Leave it up to an “out of stater” to figure it out...lol No wonder why you resident hunters bitch about us killing y’all’s deer.....hell yall can’t even see them!! I’m joking folks....damn cat was sure slipping along and hid in them pics!
You may have something there Tejas... might be why I've never shot a big deer. I was looking at a log (I guess) floating down the river and thinking it was something swimming. This native completely missed it at first.
Ha I’m not buying that one Cat....anybody that passes a deer in the 80s has shot some big deer.
Guessing mid 50’s to possibly 160.
Very good looking deer though.
Couple Ft. Riley bucks for everyone
I'd agree. Maybe 160"s. Th his one was similar and he scored 154"
I sure as heck missed it Kyle, there is something floating down the stream.
Nice ones Keevan...thanks for sharing.
Hey Sito I’m sorry for posting that you’re all bark on that other thread. I got irritated and I popped off again....I’m not saying I won’t ever mess with you again but I need to learn to keep my mouth shut when I get a little angry. You were the bigger man by not responding.
Bowsite wouldn't be too bad but the Kansas forum gets ruined by a couple of guys that seem to want to put everyone down.To bad this site can't be like alot of the others that actually help educate people about hunting and share tips.
Some pics through my glass a couple weeks ago. The deer in front of the big frame is the center deer on the next picture.
Bet I could name at least 10 guys on here I've helped Randy, how bout you?
Nice camera work Mr. Holden and them deer look big.
Anyone that asks or that I have something they need and all without calling a name.
You sound like a good guy too Randy. It's true, I need to do/be better, but if called out I will in fact respond...not good at turning cheek. I won't, however, back down on my stance against baiting...it's not hunting and it's just plain weak.
Not worth the arguing life is too short,I actually tried to remove my post through the edit function but that doesn't work
Randy has helped me plenty. Hope to be able to return the favor someday. Never asked Sit for help but I am sure he would give a hand in a heartbeat if needed. Drove an hour to eat lunch with a guy from TX... bet he would extend his hand to anyone here whether they asked for help or not.
I’ll be the first to admit I sent Kyle directions to our place and had him look at google pics to give me pointers and he was good enough to help. I’ve always remembered that even though I get a little flustered by some of his post I honestly think he’s a pretty good dude
Yeah Kyle is a good dude....he definitely has the experience in hunting and fishing. He would be the person to go to if you wanted some pointers. And if I was there before 95 when hunting was wild and free....then all of a sudden you get blasted with NRs and feeders everywhere...and then on top of that them bragging on how they took the deer. That would probably cause a thorn in my side as well.
You guys talking about Kyle Adams, “Sito?” ??
As far as hunting I started in the seventies in ks bird hunting but I saw a lot of deer never thought that much about it because most of my hunting was quail and pheasant which was fantastic I didn’t care about killing a deer give me QUAIL!!! But I saw the deer locals took back then pretty nice we would jump them out of crp all the time
Yes sir Writer....he’s the man of the hour but a guy that hunt and fishes that much has to love what he’s doing. Got to respect that even though a few rude words may come out every now and then.
If you all met the guy, we wouldn't have to hear about all the complaining of supposed "rudeness". He took me goose hunting a few times to get my mind off my dad who was unconscious and dying.
I just got into bow hunting last year, Kyle offered to take me to one of his spots and show me the ropes. We spoke a few times through text but never did get to hook up for a hunt. Not many would do that for a stranger, he's a stand up guy in my book.
I like the guy too, but if anyone else has words of affirmation for him, please start another thread. The trail cam pic thread is once again drifting a tad...
It has been "affirmed" this is Cherney's target buck
I agree Patrick. Thanks guys, and Randy is still right...I can do/be better. Bryan the offer is still open sir.
I'll start a new thread.