Took a vacation day today but now in my 60s too wet and cold for my old bones to be out there... I can still handle dry zero temperatures but that cold November rain cuts through me like a knife... Due to age and physical shape, that and lost properties, I quit group hunting with buddies a few years ago, but the short time I was out today, heard shots but didn't seem to be as many as most years...
We'll see what the rest of the week holds. If the pressure is this light, I'll actually be a little disappointed, I was hoping the pressure would shuffle some bucks around.
You must have put a bounty on the blaze orange idiots...8^)))
This now sticking snow tonight ain't gonna help the survival rate tomorrow though... The two big guns days are opener and Saturday, am keeping fingers crossed...8^)
I hunt a small farm in Harrison county, and we have a very large parcel next to us that is very much a sanctuary since only 4 guys hunt it. The deer that get pushed onto that place during this week is unreal. We see bucks we never knew existed. It seems like you have good neighbors, so hopefully your shooters don’t wander too far. Those beans you have may very well save them this week. It’s been quite a few years since we’ve had snow for gun week with this cold of temps.
Since have moved on to Illinois and it’s the same, you hear more shots on the streets of chicago than I did first firearms day in Adams County Illinois.
In reality gun pressure has been going down as fast as bow pressure (ie: crossbow) has been going up. That coupled with that fact that most folks seem to be getting lazier and land access is more difficult.....so, why bother!
Plus, kids are very uninterested in these types of activities anymore......and I say that as a father of 2 girls (13 and 9) who could care less unfortunately. I take them out, but they surely are not asking to go like I did as a kid.
Back home in CT hunting pressure has exploded because it’s the only thing you can do during the pandemic social distance rules.
Zbone's Link
This is how far deer herd herd has declined (or been decimated) in less than 20 years - Posted 2001: "COLUMBUS, OH-- Hunters harvested 41,257 deer on opening day of the statewide deer gun season Monday, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife."
Won't rub it in but I got into more arguments here on this site a few years ago saying they were mismanaging and killing too many deer... Some saying - "Ah, they'll be there next year", not understanding this ain't catch and release... At one time you could kill 18 a year and also at the same time had limitless doe urban permits when you could kill as many you wanted as long as you bought another urban tag...
The writing was on the wall, declining kill stat numbers and my personal late winter deer counts indicated the same...
Then, finally they admitted they over killed about two years ago, but it was too late, it takes time for populations to grow, it can't happen in one year... See link "Deer Harvest Numbers" link from here on this site:
https://forums.bowsite.com/tf/regional/thread.cfm?threadid=244917&messages=4&state=OH
Covid may have some to do with it but don't believe a lot... We no longer group hunt due to declining deer numbers and loss of hunting properties but when we did we all met at a greasy spoon for breakfast before the first drive, so some not wanting to go to a restaurant I could understand... Them were the good ole days, heck was nothing for our group depending on how many we had that day to shoot 20, 30, maybe even 50 or more slugs a day.... I shot 14 times at one buck once... Was a driver and one of the standers hit him but he got back between us drivers... Seen him running or trying to run (more like hobbling) behind us across the hill so started firing long range trying to knock him down... After emptying my scoped Remington 1100 (was allowed more that 3 shells back then), I started reloading and running and gunning... Was finally able to drop him over the next hill across the next valley... Afterward, tallied up my shells to 14 slugs shot and I wasn't the only one shooting at him...
Rickm's Link
Zbone's Link
SteveB's family killed a monster on Wednesday... See link over on whitetail forum: "Target Buck is DEAD and Scored! 210 3/8!"
https://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=491562&messages=56&forum=4
The big year, the largest kill stats on record was the 2009-2010 season with total kill: 261,260... Total gun kill, not including muzzleloaders: 134,130... Archery (both xbow and vertical bow) total kill: 91,546... The kill stats has been in steady yearly decline since that 2009-2010 season, with last season's 2019-2020 season totals: 83,519 gun (not including muzzleloaders) and 88,106 archery...
Rickm - Archery kills first surpassed guns during the 2016-2017 season but has been pretty even within a few thousand since...
This is the stat that makes bowhunters wanta scream: 2019-2020 season, xbow kill: 59,516, vertical bow kill: 28,590... Xgun kills more than double bow kills now...
Actually have all Ohio seasons' kill stats since the first season in 1943 when they killed 168 deer... In 1945 they sold around 7,700 permits and only tagged 68 deer...8^) BTW the Hole in the Horn Buck was found dead in 1940 before the first open season...
I as born in 1959 and as a young lad deer were almost nonexistent in my area, and a rare sighting was big news... My grandfather had a farm and I must have been around 4 or 5 when my uncle went over to hunt PA and shot a doe... BTW, that uncle Christmas gifted me my first bow a couple years later... But will never forget seeing that doe hanging and it leaving an everlasting impression on me... Was fascinated by it at a early age... Fortunately I have a couple grandsons about that age now with the same mentality and am grateful my daughters married hunters... So about a year or so after seeing the hanging doe, my Mom and I were driving home to Uhrichsville at night from my great uncle's farm near Cambridge and around a turn stands a doe and her nearly grown fawn in the middle of the road... Mom hit the breaks and off they bound in the lights a few feet from the car... I can still see them first live deer burnt in memory... Remember thinking at the time how extremely long their tails were flagging away...8^) I can go to that very exact spot to this day... I think the year was 1966, and the kill stat for that year was 1,073...8^) So I actually grew up with the deer herd here which my life seemed to revolve around whitetails from an early age...
Yeah, those Xbow stats are crazy... Ohio bowseason turned into a pseudo gun season years ago... Watched video of a guy shooting 4" groups of bolts at a hundred yards... Had a buddy, (now deceased due to health) call his xgun, his 60-yard rifle...8^)
pappy, wish I could remember the first year they opened deer hunting in my home county of Tuscarawas and my grandfather's farm in Harrison... As the local deer herd started to grow during the late 60's I think it may have been archery only at first but I do remember it being buck only... Sometime in the mid 70's they began doe tag lotteries by county townships... Yeah, managed by townships and had to apply for lottery a head of time... I remember my grandfather drawing a landowners doe permit for me... It was a big deal to draw a doe permit back then...8^) Heck it was also a big deal to bowkill a deer back then too,,, it was BC, before compounds...8^)
True bowhunters...mostly resident...hunting through Halloween. Come November (and well before gun season) the out-of-county and out-of-state rigs arrive in droves. Trucks with trailers and multiple ATVs or big side-by-sides. Treestands loaded up. Coolers topped off. And almost without exception a crossbow for every hunter who travels in. I have the opportunity to talk with a lot of deer hunters and it's very clear that a pattern exists. Hunt the rut with a crossbow. Switch to a gun and keep going after Thanksgiving.
With crossbows showing the results they do, some potential gun hunters never need a gun. I have zero data for proof, but I truly believe the crossbow explosion and dominance in Ohio has mitigated the number of gun hunters in many areas. It used to sound like southside Chicago around here on opening morning of gun season....gunfire in all directions. Now it's eerily quiet and unusual to hear more than 3 shots all morning until noon. The hunter pressure in gun season is nowhere near what it was back in the '80s and '90s in my county. Back then every pull-off had a vehicle and it was common to see 4-6 vehicles and gangs of hunters. I haven't seen that in over 15 years. The state reports a 24% decrease in hunting license sales over the past 10 years....and similar numbers with fishing licenses.
I suppose a guy could guess all he wants at the reasons, but proof is lacking as to why many of us aren't experiencing much gun pressure. I haven't had anyone knock on my door and ask for hunting permission in deer gun season for well over a decade. Trespass hunting is WAY down as Ohio laws on that have taken hold. I hardly even see a no-hunting sign posted anymore.
And I was pleased to see a truly magnificent buck walk casually across my back field at first light this morning. 20 years ago every decent buck stayed underground for 2 weeks after the guns quit barking.
I am sure that there are a lot of reasons why hunting pressure is down during gun season. It does appear that the pressure is a little higher by me as I heard 25-50 shots per day Wednesday through Friday this gun season but I use to hear 100s. I think that at least some of the reduction in hunters is the enforcement of trespassing laws. About 1998 I decided to do something about it and I went and talked to all of the adjacent landowners. Surprisingly they had trespassers that were telling them that they had permission to hunt our land and we were hearing the same. I told them that we made sure that people hunting our land knew the boundaries and to call the warden and turn them in. A lot of the trespassers probably had no place to hunt excerpt public land. Once we started stopping people and asking them where they were hunting and calling either the sheriff or the game warden the trespassing was greatly reduced. We have flair ups that have to be addressed but it is manageable. To the best of my knowledge every piece of property in our area is being hunted. However we do not have the big groups driving land that they do not have permission to hunt and trespassing is fairly low.
I’m not upset at all. Unfortunately my other properties still get hammered during firearms season.
I hope you’re wrong. I bought property down here because the season was so bowhunting friendly.
At some point in time hunters started to realize that it was legal to bait deer in OH. I had some friends who baited that I was in a hunting contest with when I found out that they were baiting. I called ODNR and was told that there was nothing in the code that legalized baiting. Not being completely brain dead during the called I asked if there was anything in the code that made baiting illegal and got a no answer but was told again that nothing in the code legalized baiting. Then I asked if they cited people who baited and was told no because nothing in the code made it illegal and therefore there were no part of the code for them to base the citation on. Do you have a head ache yet! As time went on baiting became very popular in OH and I did not want to do it or to compete with it. WI came out with a white paper that stated baiting did not to increase the deer harvest numbers just changed the hunting techniques used by hunters. It showed that baiting some what, maybe significantly reduced day time movement but did draw deer to locations with hunters so is was pretty much a wash. It also cited some negatives of baiting such as disease transmission and the negative impacts on the habitat of concentrating deer in areas. This happened about the time that Ohio's deer herd was at an all time high. I called Mike Tonkovich who was the lead whitetail biologist at the time and asked him if he was interested in the WI paper. He politely made it very clear that OH was all about opportunity and there were hunters that did not have the land , skills or time to hunt w/o bait and baiting was here to stay. During that conversation and at public meetings where Tonkovich was present and often a speaker I developed the opinion that at that time OH did not consider the archery season as a good tool to control the population, they were relying on the gun seasons to do that. They thought that two week in-between gun season allowed for deer to relax and the hunters to be primed again to have the "opening day" effect for each season. Therefore they started with the two day antlerless season in October followed by the gun season after Thanksgiving, followed by the extra weekend, followed by the early ML and maybe followed by a late ML. Additionally hunter numbers were very important. Today the archery harvest exceeds the guns harvest. Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. It makes it less likely that ODNR will think that more gun seasons will be needed to control the population if it spikes. However straight wall rifles are now legal which is consistent with more opportunities. Hopefully the season structures will stay the same going forward and the population will be controlled by adjusting quotas. If hunters respond to changes in quotas to get the results that the ODNR is looking for it will help to reduce the incentive to make other changes. Dropping hunter numbers may cause them to look for ways to increase opportunities.
Yeah Old Reb there was so much outcry from bowhunters of the early antlerless ML season that thankfully it ceased... That was the only one reg change I EVER remember them changing because of hunters outcry... Was a great win for bowhunters at the time, but know there isn't much can be done once wildlife council announces proposed upcoming seasons, dates and limits early in the year... I think they announce the proposals in March after the public hearings and WISH they'd abolish the two day weekend gun season like coming up on the 19th and 20th...
Believe it or not I do know the DNR used to monitor this site back in the day when we argued a lot mainly about deer numbers and xbows because one (I think he was a biologist, maybe retired) sincerely chimed in.. Although I never met him that am aware of, we had some heated debates, but he was a cool dude and gave his perspective and I respected him and his opinions, and then ironically learned he is/was local to my area...
Don't know if they still monitor this site, but this has been a cool thread, maybe once again, the DNR observes and hears us...
“Bucknutz" you still out there?
I’ve often said that I want the gun hunters to be very successful at killing deer by the numbers. My rationale: The state going to do what it needs to in order to manage deer numbers to their acceptable numbers. Gun season is critical to that objective. When/if hunters as a whole aren’t meeting the harvest goals (and assuming deer numbers increase) the ODNR will figure out a way to increase the kill. That could well translate to additional gun season days, extended muzzle loader opportunities and so on. Ohio has repeatedly shown they are willing to adopt new regs and weapons. We were ground zero for the crossbow many years ago.
Reading your above post, I basically have a few comments. They don’t need to extend gun season at this time, but we can be assured it’s a viable option in future years if the deer herd expands. And of course archery season (crossbow season mainly) is important toward meeting harvest objectives. However, there’s no way the state can realistically expand on archery season, given its 4+ month current length. The only alternatives would be to liberalize bag limits and encourage additional gun kills. This is all in theory anyway, as long as herd expansion doesn’t exceed the state’s objectives.
Despite the very low hunting pressure, all but one of my top bucks has vanished. I doubt they were killed, but they sure seem to be buggered up pretty good.
I'll bet you start seeing those bucks on the plots when/if the weather gets nasty enough. Unless the acorn production is a heavy down there as it is here this year.
About the gun season, I wish they would eliminate it but I doubt they will as its added opportunities that the state is after.
No Pat, you're our best chance, you probably carry more clout than anybody here...8^) In all seriousness that is likely true, the DNR used to monitor this site, and likely still do... About the only thing bowhunters can do is voice their opinions at the game hearings shortly after season's end... Bowhunters against, gun hunters for, so there ya go... Then the wildlife council usually announces "proposed" season dates, times, and bag limits sometime around March, but once the announcement is made, not much can be done to change the "proposed", only one time have I seen them change a season due to public outcry… Anyhow, you’ll likely know next season’s dates by spring...
Gary, you make a good point on the buck fawns. I will say that now that we keep our doe population lower displaced bucks seem to be more likely to set-up shop. There are always more than enough yearly bucks looking for a place to live. I do see buck and doe fawns traveling w/o a doe during turkey season. I assume that they lost their mother. However that is before dispersion.
Can't remember exactly when the buttons started traveling and dispersing in the PA studies, but think it was the late spring and summer months... I think it was after their first birthday and before the following fall... They likely hook up with buddies during their travels forming bachelor groups and new ranges and core areas...
Does behind the house seem to distance themselves or loose their surviving fawns just after greenup here the last week of April when I see them alone and they show heavily pregnant... Although I remember one year a local Hudson mature doe living in town behind my work building in a small green patches next to the railroad tracks had twin doe fawns and then the following year had another set of twins but her then yearling doe twins (which didn't have their own fawns by the way) still stayed with their mother... When they were on the move in the neighborhood, it was cool to watch them travel property to property single file mother doe in lead followed close behind by the small fawns, followed close by the yearly does...8^)
Zbone's Link
Ya got me searching Cliff, ya got me searching...8^) Probably been over a decade since I last read that button buck dispersal report but while searching gathered some more info...
Luv the radio-collar studies, and was quite an extensive project collaring 500 deer,,,
I was conservative with the 60% button dispersal, it was 70%...
Also something interesting... Kinda figured some momma does drive off their yearling female fawns from the immediate area of her new fawns, but was unaware how far and learned some about doe fawns dispersal...
Here ya go:
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" Between 2001 and 2005, when Duane Diefenbach was studying the dispersal of young white-tailed deer
By 2008, when the results of the collaborative research project conducted by Penn State, the Pennsylvania Game Commission and the U.S. Geological Survey were published in an issue of Behavioral Ecology, it occurred to him that his work might have epidemiological implications.
The study, which involved 500 radio-collared deer from Centre and Armstrong counties that ended up in 10 other surrounding counties, was part of the Game Commission's evaluation of changes to the state's deer population resulting from antler restrictions aimed at allowing male deer to grow older.
In his four-year study, Diefenbach, adjunct associate professor of wildlife ecology in Penn State's College of Agricultural Sciences and leader of the Pennsylvania Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit, documented deer dispersal behavior
"We learned that 70 percent of yearling males will disperse, and the average dispersal is six to seven miles," he said. "Depending on the amount of forest on the landscape, those yearling males may go just a mile or as far as 30 miles."
In Pennsylvania, few young female deer disperse, Diefenbach noted, but when they do, they usually go farther than the males -- some much farther.
"On average, females go about 12 miles, but their behavior is different from males," he said. "When males disperse, they go in one direction and are finished moving in 12 to 24 hours. When females disperse, they engage in strange, seemingly random movements -- wandering over the landscape and often changing directions.
"Their movement can take weeks or months, and we don't know what is driving them to disperse. It is unexpected, peculiar behavior."
Diefenbach said one female in Indiana County went well over 100 miles but ended up only 30 miles from where she was born. "And we documented other females that made similar movements." "
Here is the above linky:
https://www.pennlive.com/pa-sportsman/2013/03/deer_dispersal_and_chronic_wasting_disease_penn_state_study_sheds_some_light.html
Zbone's Link
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-06/ps-fdd062816.php
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" Fewer female white-tailed deer disperse than males, but when they do, they typically travel more than twice as far, taking much more convoluted paths and covering larger areas, according to researchers in Penn State's College of Agricultural Sciences.
These findings, from a study in which 277 juvenile female deer were fitted with radio collars
"Dispersal of female deer is density dependent, meaning that higher deer densities lead to greater dispersal rates." He explained. "Therefore, reducing deer density will reduce female dispersal rates -- and likely will reduce disease spread.
"Although not as many females disperse in Pennsylvania -- 8 to 24 percent of females versus 50 to 75 percent of males -- there end up being more of them, because they live longer than males and they disperse an average of 11 miles compared to 5 miles for males."
Dispersal, which is the permanent movement of juvenile white-tailed deer away from where they were born, is an important behavior because it affects the rate at which genetic traits are transferred through the population, can influence population growth, and can spread disease, said Diefenbach, who is leader of the Pennsylvania Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit at Penn State.
Wildlife biologists believe that dispersal, from an evolutionary perspective, can benefit individuals by reducing inbreeding and competition for mates and local resources. Juvenile white-tailed deer usually are "motivated" to disperse by social cues, such as aggressive behavior directed toward them by older, socially dominant does or maternal abandonment.
Documenting and understanding deer-dispersal behavior and identifying factors that influence that behavior are important to understand the basic ecology of the species and to provide critical information for its conservation and management.
The study, published this month in the Journal of Wildlife Management, involved young does radio-collared in four study areas in Pennsylvania -- in the western, northcentral, northeastern and southcentral sections of the state. Findings included dispersal occurred at one year of age, which coincided with the fawning season; dispersal paths generally were nonlinear, and the dispersal process, on average, took two days but sometimes weeks; roads, rivers and human development caused females to change direction and sometimes inhibited dispersal; and about 50 percent of yearling females made foray of several miles outside the home range where they were born, even if they did not ultimately disperse.
One particular GPS-collared doe stood out, said lead researcher Clayton Lutz, who conducted the study as a master's degree student at Penn State. "On May 25, she left her natal home range for good, and she kept going for 55 days and 10 hours," said Lutz, now a Pennsylvania Game Commission biologist, working in the agency's southcentral region. "She traveled 160 miles, crossed Interstate 80 twice, and crossed three major rivers four times. Despite all of this effort, she did not end up that far from home -- only about 20 miles."
Was hoping he'd make it another year, but not to be... I hate the 2-day gun season...
Now they have to get through Jan 2-5 muzzleloader...8^(
Modern muzzleloaders are nuts compared to the old #9 cap might go off open sight ones from 30 years ago.
Zbone's Link
"The total number of deer taken in Ohio during all 2020-2021 hunting seasons is 187,883, with one month remaining to hunt with archery equipment. That number has already surpassed last season’s final tally of 184,468."
"COLUMBUS, Ohio – Ohio’s white-tailed deer hunters completed the 2021 muzzleloader season with 9,708 deer checked from Saturday, Jan. 2 to Tuesday, Jan. 5, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife. Over the last three years, an average of 12,695 deer were taken during the same four-day period.
During the weeklong and extra weekend of deer-gun season, 86,853 deer were checked by Ohio hunters. In total, 102,672 deer were harvested with a gun, including muzzleloaders, during the 2020-2021 gun hunting seasons. Over the last three years, hunters harvested an average of 90,722 deer during the three gun hunting seasons."
Full story:
https://ohiodnr.gov/wps/portal/gov/odnr/discover-and-learn/safety-conservation/about-ODNR/news/Ohio-Muzzleloader-Season-Results
Won't go into the story, and wasn't 400 yards, but the longest shot I personally killed a deer was with a scoped inline...
Zbone's Link
https://ohiodnr.gov/wps/portal/gov/odnr/discover-and-learn/safety-conservation/about-ODNR/news/2020-21-deer-season-concludes
