Proposed Deer regs = NY has no clue
New York
I just spent the last two hours reading through the proposed deer plan. It's exactly what I've come to expect from the DEC.
Here's what I was hoping to see: A consideration of moving to one buck per hunter. Reduced regular season in the Northern Zone and expanding the bow season. Restructuring of the deer units so NZ , a late bow season in the NZ, antler restrictions statewide. There was none of that. Instead they are basically keeping everything the same except they want crossbows during archery.
Plus a holiday season in the SZ, because hunters need "more opportunity". I love the one buck per season, any weapon. I don't like the crossbow the entire bow season.
OTC, was the one buck per season proposed? I didn’t see that. I am hoping they do this,
OTC, was the one buck per season proposed? I didn’t see that. I am hoping they do this,
What it was year ago. I certainly would mind seeing it go back to that. Very true Pat , not much done in NY for hunters and better hunting.
All of this means nothing as long as deer management control has been given to the Insurance companies. I can accept the one buck rule but no antler restrictions no crossbow restrictions. If you buy a tag you should be able to shoot what you want and with what you want during the appropriate season. Archery season is any arrow bolt for a certain time, Gun season any legal caliber including muzzleloader during a certain time. No late seasons. If it has balls it is a buck none it is a doe 1 and done, unless we go to a shoot a doe then get your buck tag.
Besides pushing for full inclusion of crossbows, they are proposing a "special" antlerless FIREARMS season in September. Can anyone say negatively impacting the archery season!!!!!
One more thing to my last post hunting over food plots is baiting. Change the rules.
petcontain. It really isn't, IMO. And this coming from a guy who plants a lot of food plots and has only killed 2 mature bucks in 10 years in NYS.
But that's a discussion for another time
al Dente
Where are you reading that? I've heard it mentioned today now too.... can find info on it.
It is in the report. I am hoping to read it through this weekend.
I agree , the Ag industry and ins companies control deer management in NY. The only thing I would disagree with Pat , Is those of us that hunt the Adirondacks and the core of the Tug Hill Plateau , most are not in favor of shortening the rifle season. But issues like that could be easily remedied by making season length WMU specific, and redrawing WMU boundaries. ,
Units like 6N and 5 H, the long rifle season Does little to affect deer management there. Buck harvest on average is less than 1 buck per sq mile, little to no bowhunting in these units, and no DMP’s in these units. Even during the early MZ season WMU6N is antlered deer only.
When I say food plots are baiting what I mean is if you have enough money to throw towards your deer hunting you can buy a farm a tractor a disk all the seed you need to make your own killing plot. Yes it has been referred to as killing plots, Just as crossbows have been referred to as near rifle accuracy at a 100 yds.
As a tax paying landowner I have a different opinion on some issues. I spent many years being a guest on private property and also hunting public land and I feel what one does on his/her own land, within legal reason, is an American tradition and right. What is the difference between hunting a food plot, hunting an agricultural corn or alfalfa field or a crab apple orchard ? Most plant food plots to hold deer on their property and mostly to provide additional nourishment. I was never one that was angry or envious about what people with money had. Capitalism is what fuels the American dream.
I hate deer hunting in this freaking state. Our regulations, season structure and hunter habits are abysmal.
Trail153 and any other IF YOU DONT LIKE NEW YORK STATE THAN MOVE !!
I dont have to me move to deer hunt, I hunt out of state way more then I hunt in NY.
I emailed Richard at NYBH hoping to get some feedback as I am sure we should be apposing almost all of these stupid proposals. I was told that the BOD was working on a response however we should be commenting individually as well, I did just that.
Trail 153 I bet that you gave NO FEED BACK to DEC just do what most do COMPLAIN
Serious question. Has DEC ever once listened to hunter feedback? I spoke to Jeremy Hurst a few years back and had a serious conversation with him. He had no intention of listening, and just dismissed my recommendations. The same with your furbearer guy who told me the reason NY Has a coyote season, and not a 12-mos season like every other state, is because the coyotes will be thrown in a ditch if shot in August. Exactly.
I live in CT and this state is FUBAR, but NY makes us look like freaking geniuses here. I've never seen a more screwed up state than NY.
Just one last point. You have an area of the state - the North Zone - that has extremely low deer numbers. The hunting success is abysmal. So you give hunters two buck tags and a 6 week rifle season? Does that make any sense?
Actually, I am quite good a giving feed back and do so regularly. In fact I itemized each proposal with my response, so I suspect it will be more coherent then most of what they receive. You can add that to list of things your wrong about.
New Yorks main problem is the mentality of their hunters who for the most part are clueless about what quality deer hunting and managment looks like. The DEC caters to the lowest common denominator and unfortunately that's pretty stinking low in NY.
Two buck tags that can used in areas that in some cases have buck kills of less than one buck per square mile. Pure stupidity.
A 45 day rifle season in the northern zone that encompasses the entire rut. Pure stupidity.
A 28 day rifle season in the southern zone that encompasses about half of the rut. Pure stupidity.
Either sex permits that can be used to harvest does in zones that have no antlerless tag allocations. Stupidity.
Unfilled Regular season buck tags that are allowed to be used in the late season after the hunter already filled his archery/mz tag. Pure stupidity.
A state wide buck harvest that is about 80% one and two year old bucks, pure stupidity on the hunters part. And when you have about 15 hunters per square mile, no amount of regulations will over come hunter behavior and habits.
You can add 2 dmu permits plus 2 consigned from other hunters in some areas to the stupidity. And 9 days of shoot anything and use any tag at the end of the season when the deer are grouping up due to weather with scoped, inline, smokeless powder, mzloaders that are as effective as most single shot centerfire rifles as really stupid.
As bad as this talk is regarding NY's seasons and regulations, NY's duck seasons are far, far worse. It's like they're structured specifically to miss the migration. We really, really need some new folks in charge of setting regulations and seasons.
All hunting, fishing,and trapping regulations and proposals are f***** up IMO. Hasn"t changed and probably never will.
Trial not everyone has good private land and some have very few days off to hunt. Do you suggest people who have crappy public land and five total days to hunt pass up a spike for the freezer?
Don't care about shooting big bucks. I think guys should be able to shoot what they want(legally). NY will never be a state people want to come and hunt for trophy deer. And truth is sportsman have very little input as to how government makes their decisions.
Nobody is talking about trophy deer. We are talking about a healthy deer herd. That includes age structure, a healthy buck/doe ratio, and deer population In line with the carrying capacity of the area.
NY regs do nothing to achieve these basic deer management principals.
It only takes a couple years to break the cycle and normalize the age class of bucks. Lay off one a two year old bucks for two or three years and now you have a herd that had mature bucks in it in sufficient numbers that is practical for hunting. It allows an actual rut to take place you will see sign and activity that is indicative to a balanced herd. Nothing to do with antler size and all to do with age. NY gives out ample antlesless tags for anyone looking to fill a freezer, there is no reason what so ever to have a buck harvest that is 80% one and two year old bucks.
Trial I think the reason for the 80% is simply because their are more young bucks then old. Same thing with bass way more 2 pounders then 6-8 pounders so that is what is mostly caught.
This year we ALL face a dilemma with the deer herds VIRIUS here in the Hudson Valley area it is really down on sittings, I have arears that in past years sittings of herds where large. This year one is lucky to see any deer. I know of one area that the DPW says the are removing on average 5 to 8 deer a week from the area they cover Its NOT ROAD KILLS . Also I would like to know how one knows the age of a deer without teeth checking , I did not know that we are trained biologist
Despite the fact that I do have a degree in wildlife biology I am not a practicing biologist. However one doesn't have to have biology background to be able to read the annual New York State deer harvest report. A report that lists average age for bucks harvested in NYS. a bar graph that stating age by percent of total harvest. Not only do they have one for the state they also break it down by region. NY state had only been publishing that for public consumption since what... the late 80s? The biggest obstacle we face in NY doesn't come from the DEC despite their terrible regulatory history it comes from the ignorance of too many hunters who keep doing the same things over and over and expecting better results.
Archer, what do you mean Not road kills? How else are they removing them?
EHD hit the lower Hudson valley very hard. Went as far north as coxsackie and into southern albany county near the hudson river. Not as far north on the east side of the hudson. Over a two week span we have about 30 plus confirmed dead just in one section of property.. it's was as bad as anything I seen in Iowa last year.
Ill second EHD kills. Lots of deer died in certain areas in Orange county. We'll see how that is addressed with DMPs next year.
Incase anyone wants to read the deer harvest reports.
Way back when when I was at ESF taking wildlife management had a professor that summed it up this way. To some, especially those in political power( eg: DEC commissioner on up) deer, hunters, the public and all the stake holders( farmers, insurance companies,etc.) are all problems that they try to juggle, satisfying some through bad compromises, while still not hurting the $$$ they take in from hunting license sales. He went on to say that to some of these decision makers, deer are a problem that if they were honest, they wish were gone completely.
NYDEC appears unaware that most major hunting scent companies have made supply chain changes to make sure that scents are not CWD contaminated, and that most of them are testing their products to make sure they are CWD free. Why ban all scents? Several states allow scents that are from certified sources. Tinks, Code Blue, Conquest, Wildlife Research Center- they all are participating in the Deer Protection Program and are testing their products.
I do agree deer management in NY is abysmal , and furbearer management is even worst.
But the low harvest numbers in the parts of the NZ have more to do with , historically low deer population mostly because of winter kill , poor habitat in the Forest Preserve ( no timber harvest for many decades), and dwindling number of hunters. Shortening the rifle season will do little or nothing to increase the deer population in parts of the NZ like the ADKs and Tug Hill. What it will take there is timber harvest on Forest Preserve, large scale Forest Fire, or major weather event like the 95 micro burst. When Gould Paper Co. owned the Moose River Plains, the deer hunting there was excellent, because of large scale logging on the property. 60 years of State ownership and no timber harvest, equals few deer.
I hunt 30,000 acres of private land with a conservation easement that allows the general public to hunt. I saw 1 other hunter while hunting this property during the 6 week rifle season. Few hunters = low deer take.
I killed a 200 lb dressed 8 pt with my MZ and a 190 lb 10 pt with my rifle. The deer are there, but one has to get out of the pickup or off from the ATV to kill them.
Just glad I sold my land in NY two years ago.
Squash, I do agree with you for zone 5, but there are areas of the NZ that look nothing like the big woods of the Adirondacks. My unit, 6K is south of Tug hill and on the border of the southern zone. All ag and hay fields in 6K. And while snow can be bad there, the last five years it's been very mild. You also have the Tug Hill, Lewis, Jefferson County that gets a lot of snow, but has serious ag, same with St.Lawrence County.
But putting all that aside, why do they allow two buck tags for the Northern Zone if the deer numbers are so abysmal and you lose so many deer to winter kill? You can't shoot a doe, but you can shoot two bucks? It makes no sense. All they are doing is reducing buck numbers and forcing a lousy age structure.
I bought land in Ohio. I see more deer in one day than I do all season in NY. And the bucks here are incredible. They allow 1 buck tag for the season. If you tag out in archery, you're done. I am completely at a loss why they don't move to a one buck rule. I feel they should do that statewide in NY. But at the very least, they should do that for the Northern zone. My neighbor wounded a buck in bow, then killed a buck in Muzzleloader, then killed a buck in Regular. He later found the wounded bow buck as a dead-head. That's 3 bucks killed by one guy in the Northern Zone. Most of my neighbors fill a buck tag in Muzzleloader and then another tag in Regular. Then everyone complains about the quantity, and quality of bucks in the NZ.
right on Pat...I'm w/ you. I do Euro mounts on the side and number of guys who I know are shooting multiple bucks is very disappointing. I did not see one 3 yo buck this season and I hunt A LOT!
Pat, I know exactly where your NY property is in 6K, and you are incorrect that all of 6K has Ag land.
From State Route 26 west to Osceola much of 6 K is the same as the big woods of 6N. I’ve stated it before the problem is WMU boundaries. It would take some effort for the DEC to properly draw boundaries. So it’s just easy for them to use Lewis County Rt 46/Osceola Rd. As the boundary between 6K and 6N, even though northwestern portion of 6K habitat is the same as 6N.
I Did tag out on both MZ tag and rifle tag this year in 6N, 200 lb dressed 8 pt, and 190 lb dressed 10 pt.. But that is not the norm because I only shoot mature bucks. I also hunt and trap the interior of 5H.
As far as quality of bucks. I hunt the big woods of the ADKs and Tug Hill, in 6N and 5H, where there are few hunters. The quality is there if one gets out of the pickup, off the ATV.
I have hunted bowhunted Ohio, in Hocking , Washington and Galia Counties, and if you think all hunters there stop hunting after killing 1 buck, you are mistaken.
I live in the SW portion of 6K. There are no farms near here. The closest bean or corn field is probably 15 miles away.
Redrawing the unit boundaries would make sense here.
The number of hunters who legally kill and report 2 bucks is a small fraction of the total buck kill. Those who kill 2 illegally are not going to stop because the limit gets changed.
Bullshit, plenty of guys kill two bucks a year especially considering Muzzleloader season tossed in as well. The annual deer report comes out yearly and no place is published the percentage of bucks killed on second Tag, and the naysayer keep saying its minuscule like they have numbers in front of them.
SteveBNY stated above two things - "The number of hunters who legally kill and report 2 bucks is a small fraction of the total buck kill."
This has two meanings - one hunter using his own two "buck" tags, and one hunter using his "buck" tag and a "buck" tag from someone else, like wife, grandfather, etc. I do not believe DEC could even tell you how many hunters using their own tags kill 2 bucks/year - they just don't keep those records. How much of a fraction is anyones guess, but it probably is fairly small. I would not be surprised if the number of second bucks taken using someone elses tag equals the number of second bucks taken legally. No sense throwing in the "reporting" issue, as the DEC 2019 report shows the 5-year average reporting rate (those who actually report their harvest) as about 46%. 2/3 of the bucks killed in 2019 were during "gun" season. Those killing 2 bucks/year, legally or illegally, are more likely to be hard core hunters who are not shooting 2 spikes.
"Those who kill 2 illegally are not going to stop because the limit gets changed."
If only 1 buck tag gets issued per hunter then the number of second bucks killed would certainly be reduced, but the illegal bucks would increase due to the number of hunters illegally using "borrowed" buck tags.
Been happening for years, unfortunately. And very little is done about it. Have reported different violations to DEC on more than one occasion and zero was done. Truth is NY government agencies care little about sportsman and more about money.
Got to agree with much of the above. The 46% reporting rate is a disgrace. This number is calculated by checking deer at cutters and comparing it to the reported deer. I would deny a license ( like the state is going to forgo the fee) to a hunter that failed to report the previous year.
Hey Pat, are all the guys around your camp that kill two bucks a year with there rifles and muzzle loaders ...hard core and only killing mature deer? That sure isnt the case around by me. Lots of guys are filling two buck tags. And quite frankly its asinine that NY is two buck state with 15 plus hunters per square mile. Pure stupidity
I agree with much that has been stated. Since I consider myself a hardcore hunter, I gave up on the SZ, and NZ local Ag land years ago. Too much drama, road hunters ,trespassers, jacklighters, etc.. I now only hunt the big woods of Tug Hill and the Adirondacks, where there is way less than 15 hunters per square mile. Saw one other hunter in the woods all season.
Trial, they all kill a buck during muzzleloader and they shoot a buck during regular. Big Ag and pastures around me make killing deer a cinch with in-lines. My neighbor wounded a buck with his bow that was found dead after he killed a second buck during muzzleloader, then he killed a third buck during rifle. The two early bucks were maybe 2.5, although they could have been 1.5. The regular season buck was 3.5. All were regulars on my property and I had passed up the little bucks during archery,
If they only had one buck tag, they may let those little bucks go. With two buck tags they shoot a meat buck then save the regular tag for a good buck.
I seriously doubt anyone up there besides me reports anything.
"I seriously doubt anyone up there besides me reports anything." This is part of NY's deer problem. I remember back in the 70's 80"s opening day Troopers and Econ had road blocks checking hunters, caught considerable un tagged deer.
"I seriously doubt anyone up there besides me reports anything." This is part of NY's deer problem. I remember back in the 70's 80"s opening day Troopers and Econ had road blocks checking hunters, caught considerable un tagged deer.
I remember when you purchased the Szot Property , I warned you of your neighbors. LOL
It’s about $. The only way a 1 buck limit would work is if when you purchased your regular big game lic. Tag, It was good for all seasons, archery and MZ included. That would be a net loss in revenue for NY, unless they raised the price on the big game tag.
,Doubt that would be popular with most NY hunters. But still would not solve your problem, just like now many hunters use their wife’s , grandmothers, etc. tag.
I won half of the money in a buck club this past fall with most points, but a woman that I’m pretty sure doesn’t hunt much if any beat me out on the spread category of the same club. Her buck was entered the last week of NZ rifle season, by her husband. Draw your on conclusions.
OH and NY are 2 very different states in their ability to hold and carry deer. WNY is very similar and if it weren't for the pressure , would be (is) pretty similar. 1 buck, a late gun season, a short gun season, antlerless harvest strategy and weapons limitations all add to the structural and regulatory advantages. Habitat , ag practices, latitude, winter severity (climate in general), and primary browse and mast trees also contribute. I live in 7M and hunt on over 1000 contiguous acres that has been a club (10 guys) instituted 1 buck and try for 4.5 yr old or better. We kill 2 or 3 bucks per year and typically have 4 to 6 that we consider as suitable. The hunters around us are not as selective but getting better. Voluntary is just fine. Pat, you purchased ground in one of the toughest areas to grow older deer. Sell it and buy in an area that already has the culture you need. The DEC proposals are ambiguous at best. They always shoot themselves in the arse by trying to gain authority to change things and then leave them so open ended. A perfect example "tax breaks for landowners" ....hunting and "recreational use".....no mention if landowners who lease would be eligible.....no restriction to hunting.....which leaves loopholes for hiking as "other recreation" ....but presented as hunting access. I like points and hate most of them. 12 year old standard....great. CWD management.....a continuing farce......wanton waste without clearly stating what that is.....ridiculous, especially when they say it is at best infrequent. If they want to change regs, give us clarity. No mention of biological need or the North American conservation model......but a mention of "sociopolitical" influences.
Not to beat a dead horse, but all the regulation points discussed here are not made by professional game managers, but are made by politicians. What makes any of us think that NYS would manage their deer herd any better than they manage everything else . Albany makes Washington DC look like heaven. Just look at the numbers of people leaving the state and all this becomes clearer. Very sad because although NYS would never be Ohio for deer hunting, this state should be the premier state for hunting and fishing east of the Mississippi based on our ecological diversity.
