spring Turkey......1 tag vs 2 tags.....
Kansas
Hey guys, I know some of us are still trying to fill those late season tags, and to those, I wish you good luck. I did want to bring up the Spring turkey regulations that have already been recommended and going to the commissions meeting in January. I know they are proposing a 1 tag system in my unit again (North eastern area/Douglas/Franklin county), and I couldn't disagree more! I've seen more toms this Fall than I've seen in the past 7-8 years. I'm curious as to what others are seeing with your numbers? And if you'd like your voice to be heard, email :
[email protected] and she can add you to the virtual meetings agenda scheduled for Jan.
I live and hunt Franklin county and consider myself to be a fairly experienced turkey hunter having been hunting them nearly 20 years now. I intially questioned the changes to the one bird limit, but I am not so sure that it isn't for the better. While I usually don't have too much trouble getting my limit and occasionally help a couple firends or their kids get their birds, I feel like there are less birds than say 5-10 years ago. I still see them, but not in the numbers that I used to and while hunting deer this fall I have only heard one flock on the roost in the morning and it was pretty far away. I can't say why and won't pretend to be an expert on the matter. But in my opinion I don't belive it to be a biological or climate issue in regards to rain, drought or flooding. But then again I am not a biologists. Honestly I feel like it has more to do with over harvesting the population than anything. I feel like poachers pose a serious threat to the turkey population here in Kansas. Guys taking more than their limit, not tagging birds, people shooting them with rifles and leaving them lay, shooting them out of season and on. If I had a dollar for everytime I heard someone bitching about turkeys, I could retire. They get blamed for everything related to crop damage and if I hear one more "they eat all the quail eggs" I am going to puke. Its kind of sad, just how missinformed people are about them. They are one of the greatest conservation victories in this country and to hear of their numbers declining again breaks my heart. I alos feel like I have seen more coyotes than ever before which can't be good on them either. A few years ago I witnessed a pack of nine come out of a wood lot. Couldnt believe it. Lastly, I know they say hunter recruitment and numbers are down, but I don't buy it. Maybe it is in certain parts of the country, but I don't feel like it holds true here. I feel like our Non Resident Turkey tags are dirt cheap compaired to other states as well. Not bitchin about non-residents, just going by what I see when I think about going to a different state to hunt turkeys. But I am not an expert, these are merely my thoughts. It sucks they dropped the limits on Turkeys, but maybe its for the better.
Definitely less turkeys in Jefferson county than in the past. I support the change based on what I have seen.
Definitely less around Dwight, KS. Still birds but maybe half as many as 10 years ago.
Southeast Kansas used to be absolutely lousy with turkeys. That’s not the case anymore. They’re still around, but you have to hunt hard for your birds. You used to be able to set up damn near anywhere and fill your tags in no time. It’s not a Kansas problem though, turkeys are declining everywhere.
Our turkeys down here in Oklahoma are a fraction of what they were 15 to 20 years ago. All of our western 2 bird counties have finally changed for this upcoming spring. Was probably long overdue.
Numbers are way down around me here in Butler/Greenwood counties. Saw 6 toms the other day. First birds I'd seen in 7 months. I hope they reduce tags.
Cherney and I covered some of the same ground this fall, but I’ll echo his thoughts. Few and far between. More quail than I’ve ever seen though. Good trade in my opinion.
And before the experts jump on me... I’m not saying they’re correlated. Or that they aren’t. :)
I lived in Kansas when numbers seemed to be peaking and I can't remember for sure but it seemed like you could shoot 2,3 or 4 if you hunted the spring and fall. There were birds nearly everyplace I hunted and filling tags was a given.
I live in Montana now and the numbers seem to be peaking here. You can shoot like 10 or 12 birds if you travel around the state in different units and hunt spring and fall. I'm over it here and maybe kill 1 or 2 and definitely wouldn't travel for a turkey. Admittedly, they aren't quite as spooky as their eastern counterparts:)
I expect from what's happened in other states that the population will drop back at some point. We had zero turkeys in northeast Montana growing up and through transplants they have a healthy population and turkey enthusiasts as well.
Maybe the answer is re-transplant some new birds...…...
South central ks numbers are a fraction of what they were 15-20yrs ago. I used to always fill both my tags opening morning. Wouldn't be very likely now. I am all for reducing the tags. I agree with KB, the quail numbers are crazy. In my area anyway.
The population is rebounding in north central Kansas. I had one group of 10 goblers, now nine, and another group of 8 on my property. That's about twice as many as the last few years. I think things are looking up for next spring.
This past spring was the first year for the reduction. Not a lot of post-season complaints.
I was against the reduction, but it was the right call. It could keep us in enough time to hunt until the population rebounds.
This is pretty much a nationwide problem.
A disease went through 4 or 5 years ago and we found several dying or dead turkeys while shed hunting.I called KWP and they said they hadn't heard anything but talked to several others that found same thing.Went from over 100 turkeys in the winters to I haven't seen any but 1 time this season yes we are way down SC Kansas.
Avian flu can kill large numbers of birds if they are congregated. No joke, but corn feeders have been proven to be a factor in the kill offs when the flu is present.
Going to echo the others, 1/3 or less the # of turkeys we had just 5-10yrs ago, don't see the huge winter flocks any longer. See birds around but not like it was.
Got more dang turkeys and quail than I know what to do with on the properties that I frequent in Southern Butler, Cowley and Elk counties. In some cases over 50 Turks in a rafter/flock. Figured the multiple pairs of Bald Eagles that I have nesting on west edge of one of my places would have had an impact by now but appears not to be the case.
Whatever KDWP decides on tag allotment is fine by me as they cast a wider net in their annual studies and know way more about overall population densities, health, etc. than any of us.
Congratulations Crestedbutte, you have a winter flock and probably all the birds from many miles of creek bottom. The 6 toms I saw the other day came from a field that had over 200 turkeys wintering on it in the late 90's. We had so many in that area, they were trapping them and sending them to other states.
It’s not uncommon for a flock of 150+ to over winter on us.
However, it used to be 350+... people don’t believe me when I say that, but I would stake the farm on it.
As far as I am concerned we need to keep the population down and do not think limiting tom tags is going to do much in population control... wouldn’t it make more sense to limit or remove Fall hen tags if we are trying to increase the population?
None of this makes sense to me, but what do I know.
Properties I hunted Turkey on in Linn, Miami and Johnson counties the bird populations are way down.
My farm in Carroll county MO that we have owned since 2007 has a reduced number as well.
Mike, if this is happening nationally can you clue us in on what are the causes? I can understand the flu factor, but would that just be more localized?
Thanks.
Ray, I believe you 100%. Those sizes of flocks were commonly seen around here until a few years ago. The last couple of winters I have noticed and commented about seeing fewer birds in the flocks, 30-40 in a flock were the biggest groups.
We are 5-6 years into an extended drought. We have had more and larger hail when we did get rain/storms. Several have seen/found sick or dead turkeys, I showed video of one on my hunt thread. It's happening all over the USA.
The commercialism lobby is going to pressure the legislators under their influence just like they have with the deer hunting to allow hunting even in areas where the birds are very few and should not be hunted to be able to sell outfitted hunts, merchandise, bait grain, and leases.
When I bought my place, the outfitter next door and the neighbor basically told me I'd never see a turkey there due to blackhead disease. I converted the brome to corn/soybean rotation and I usually get at least half a dozen show up every spring. They like that purple weed that covers the bean fields in late April. First couple years I only had 3 hens which were the same three hens every year until i accidentally killed one thinking she was a tom. Her tiny beard grew into a 7.5" beard.
There was a really good podcast out last spring with a Turkey biologist. Steve Rinella talked with him for a long while. He did talk about Easterns for the most part but was very interesting. One of his takes was there we are simply killing too many. He said their research showed that a lot of mature Tom’s were actually older than 3-4... Spurs don’t tell you age and only tail fan can distinguish between jake and mature. Was real interesting.
Made for a good listen while driving to Missouri to hunt.... turkeys.
One of my Alaskan buddies reason for buying property in SE Kansas was the number of turkeys on it. On my advise, he has not even come down the past two springs to chase turkeys. My camera pics are showing a couple of gobblers but no hens this winter. Last summer there were 4 or 5 hens, but never saw any poults.
Hey, I actually live in SC and also have a farm in WV and I do travel yearly to KS or MO for a archery hunt each year. SC used to be covered in turkey prior to 2004 and the our mountain region, where I live, I'd locate a couple or more gobblers every time I went out. Around 2004 it seemed, the turkey disappeared. I went season after season feeling lucky if I even heard a bird. The large flocks I would see in the fields south of me disappeared over a span of a couple years. I've noticed in the last 3 or 4 years I'm seeing a return but always wondered if there was a disease of some kind wiping them out. Couldn't have just been coyotes and people are stringent about poaching them here. The DNR did allow 5 birds, which was cut to 3 about 2010 after enough hunters petitioned.
Well, I do appreciate the feedback and comments. I don't hunt "large tracts" but do have several smaller spots that we hunt. We've been seeing 11-12 toms on some of the 160ac tracts, 6-7 toms on some of the smaller tracts. What I would like some clarity on is why the western units still have the secondary game tags, even though most of those guys are reporting smaller numbers? I'd argue there's not a significant difference in overall numbers between the units, so how was that decision made. Just a recommendation but why not just cancel the Fall season, since I'd guess the majority of guys with Fall tags are just archery guys that buy the tag to shoot one while they're bored archery hunting.....Also, another thought would be to do one tag on any state ground, but private landowners can purchase the secondary tag...just a thought. so far, enjoying everyones perspectives.
Frank - probably a lot of factors. One of the biggest has been torrential rains and flooding at the wrong time. Many hens nest in riparian areas, which flood easily. Hail at the wrong time can then take out the few that hatch. 2019 had the lowest poult survival rates recorded in Kansas. Summer counts showed 1/2 a poult per hen.
Habitat has also changed in a lot of areas...CRP being taken out, brush and trees cleared, Being eaten by quail.... (that's humor.)
150 in a winter flock was small in the Flint Hills and Smoky Hills not that long ago. Some winter flocks in the Sandhills north of Hutchinson had 500-plus 7-8 years ago. The crash was extreme and fast.
The fall season lead to around 300-400 adult hens taken per fall. That's 3-4 per county. But, the population has fallen so fast, so far, it was the biologist's goal to totally close the fall season over most of Kansas.
A couple of commissioners feared closure would mean the fall season would never be re-opened, so it's been shortened and the limit is one of either gender over most of Kansas. The season was shortened from 3 1/2 months to the 1 1/2 months when hunting is the toughest.
Five -six years ago the fall limit was four. That's how fast things have changed.
Fish and game knows why they are disappearing.
No Turkeys for us going on 3 years at two prime locations. My rancher buddy with a ton of ground near Attica has not them for awhile either. We used to watch the Winter flocks from his back porch that blackened the fields as there were so many.
Been rough in our area the past few years and were in need of a reduction prior to that, so I don't know what is acceptable. They do appear to be on a slow recovery, but I am definitely ok with the reduction. I also agree that the fall season is what they need to address with hens being included in that. Sure is one of my favorite wild game for table fare and always thought if we lost our deer hunting we would always have them to pursue. Not quite sure about that now. They have had some good podcasts this past year addressing the overall reduction nationwide.
So are numbers in Units 1 and 2 just that much stronger? Based off feedback in this thread, would seem that's not the case.....I think it would be nice, probably not likely, but nice if private landowners could have access to secondary game tags. Let the sportsmen evaluate the numbers in their immediate area. I realize there's flaws in that idea as well. However, I have talked to numerous hunters, buddies, and farmers in the tri-county area and everyone of them are saying how many more birds there are this Fall running around.
I have been in favor of the changes the department have made. I think we all have seen a decrease of the number of birds the last few years. Yes, there are some areas that seem to be stable, but I imagine there has been a decrease in those numbers as well.
With Avain Pox, Blackhead, West Nile, loss of habitat, flooding, increase of nest predators, and a number of other factors. Giving the Turkey numbers across the state a break for a couple years isn't a bad thing. I love bowhunting turkeys, but I have shot 2 with Avain pox in the last 5 years, which is concerning.
JC- My dad and I hunted Unit 2 last spring and we saw more birds, but we also saw a huge increase of pressure (Could be COVID related or opportunity related not sure). I can't speak for unit 1.
Unit 3 has had the least amount of change IMO, 5 & 6 have had significant losses...at least where I hunt. Mike's points are spot on as usual, and I do believe they'll rebound.
There are "pockets" of birds all over the state that haven't been as affected, just like WT and MD. Glad the Biologists are studying and making adjustments on the Turkeys, hope they do the same on the deer!
P.S. I sure hope we don't end up with 20 or more units like deer, I can hardly keep track now.
I would think that if the biologist were looking for an answer it wouldn't be hard to find if they had one of those dead turkeys.With toms traveling to breed hens and 3 getting killed per county is that really even a reasonable thing to consider.Probably more than that get hit by cars.I saw some hens this year but never any poults.
Chief, Fish and Game went away back when you still had hair, original teeth and memory. (Like I have any room to kid about those three!) It's Wildlife and Parks! :-)
Let me guess, it's them sumvitching non-residents. You know, the vastards from Butler and Sedgwick County.
Randy, I argued those points. The comeback was populations are so low, and turkey lifespans can be so long, they're going to need every hen they can get when better conditions come along.
We'll see.
I sure miss my late December and January gobbler hunts near El Dorado. Had 37 some struggling and heading for the decoy one morning off the roost. Never got around to filming any of it with Kyle...he never was interested. :-)
Tons of birds where we hunt in unit 15. Couple hundred plus in number.
You mean the department of "and Tourism"? Well yea, they sure named it right. No thanks! I'll prefer to call them Fish and Game, for my own sanity. We all know that's when all things to do with whitetail deer and residents priority went to hell.
Chief: I still say fish & game and writer barks at me but it is a lot easier to remember and say. Think everyone knows what we refer to.
Maybe they will cut the spring season like they did the fall season and give you 3 weeks to hunt?
Saw my first winter flock for this season in Greenwood County a few days ago. This is the exact spot where 200 would gather in the early 90's
Hunting deer the other morning, I heard a bunch of jakes gobbling on the limb, and it sounded like the late 90’s. There haven’t been that many birds roosting in that spot in several years. The flocks around here have more than doubled in size this year. They definitely had the best hatch they’ve had in a long time around here.
Chief, you were bitching long before Brownback merged tourism and Wildlife and Parks in 2011. If you’re unhappy with numbers of non-resident permits, limits, crossbows, thank your legislature.
When I worked for tourism, I was specifically told the division was not to promote deer hunting because the system was already full.
