Logging questions.
Wisconsin
So I am going to have some logging done on our land. I have an onsite meeting with the forrester in a few weeks as long as we don't have 2 feet of snow. I know he will have some suggestions. But does anyone have any trusted logger recommendations? The land is in Pierce county if that helps. Thanks in advance, and Merry Christmas all.
I don’t have a recommendation but Make sure you find out what they do with the tops. That can be a hell of a mess to the point t you can’t even walk through the woods.
Rut, very tough now with suppressed prices so don’t expect a windfall. If you have neighbors who are due for a thinning, get them on board.
Number one piece of advice, hire a consultant forester. I would NEVER recommend going at it alone. There are too many horror stories from high-grading to theft. Consultant foresters are worth every penny. The consultant know who is a reputable logger and will do all the work for you.
what Treefarm said but w/ the Rapids mill shut down I would put it off if you can but the forester should lead you in the right direction. Skook - what's the near future look like for timber prices?
I don't see any changes in priced any time soon. Aspen pulp is near normal but markets are only like warm. Hardwood pulp is nearly impossible to get rid of and prices are pretty depressed. The log market is coming back at least, so that's one good thing. Ash pulp is worse than regular hardwood.
Being in Pierce county you likely have either oak/hardwood or aspen. If aspen it's likely better quality so that would be a bonus.
Are you meeting with a DNR forester, mill forester, or consultant?
Saw 2 logging trucks filled with hardwoods go past my place twice, north of Rochester MN yesterday. Quick glance at their loads look like oak which is mostly what there is around here. Gonna take a ride to see if the quarry up that way is taking trees out to expand the quarry. There is a mill that mostly mostly saws hardwoods about 40 miles in the direction they were headed.
Not sure about your pricing of timber. 2x4s are not cheap. Ask you forester where the timber mkt is at. Guessing if you go another step forward to have him cruise the timber the sale would go by way of sealed bid auction. Not sure if you can set a min you will accept. My experience is that you will get no help on dealing with tops from the logger. Best bet might be allowing fire wood clean up.
I friend of mine had a bunch of huge oaks on his property get blown down in the big storm in Sawyer county a few years ago. He had loggers come in thinking they would want them. They all did, but none would give a price. They all asked what he wanted for them? He had no idea what the worth was and questioned many people without answer. The trees just lay there rotting now, he cuts what he needs for firewood thats about it.
How do you price? 0er tree, per linear foot or per cubic foot? I'm guess board feet is a type of volume/cubic measurement.
There are a lot of questions here and having a proper and correct logging should be at the top of the list. The “how much can I get” should be lower priority. With logging, you get what you pay for, just like anything else.
First objective should be a thorough plan...what is objective. Is it increasing wildlife habitat, increasing timber value, mixture? There is more to “logging” than getting a logger to cut trees.
Any good harvest will remove poor form trees. Removal of poor form trees is sometimes the bulk of the harvest. Going in and cutting out only trees of value is a huge mistake, and one that is done to landowners who don’t have any idea how to manage a logging. This is the reason why you hire a consultant, someone independent of the logger. Someone who is an advocate for you as landowner. The consultant can figure out your timber volume, (hopefully as a forest owner you had your basis documented when you bought the property because it can save you a lot of capital gains tax), mark your timber (high and low), define the contract between you and logger, scale your timber, match mill receipts, and watch over the harvest. The consultant is invaluable.
Just remember, the harvest is not about the money, it is all about improving the quality of the stand. If you get left with a wood lot of crooked trees, a lot of ironwood, and no oak, and lot of terrestrial damage...revisit my advice but remember, you have done a century or more of damage and end up with a worthless timber stand!
Many owners think they have a million dollars worth of wood, but what they don’t understand is that Ponsse Scorpion King and Buffalo doing that harvest cost 1.5 million. Harvest should focus on improving the timber stand and wildlife habitat.
A good start is joining a reputable forestry association such as Wisconsin Woodland Owners Association. They are an alliance working to promote sound forestry management and fight at the State level for woodland owners
Try link beyond this one as this one was incorrect.
A few things about the land. It is in MFL closed and I have to have 25 acres of mature planted pines logged as per the plan that is up end of next year. I want to log some of our hardwood also as it's just too open on the ridges/valley. This is more about healthy timber and wildlife habitat/browse than money. But naturally want to get what we can out of it. I know it's not a huge payday by any stretch. Skook, it's a DNR/county forrester. Should I also hire a private forester/consultant?
Rut, what specie pine and what is Ave, DBH? I know of a harvest of ‘mature red pine happening near RF.
"Rut, what specie pine and what is Ave, DBH?"
Red and white Pine. Average DBH I do not know. I know what DBH is, I do not know how to get avg DBH. This may be a dumb question. But you can't possibly measure every tree. So how do you get an average? I mean I could measure every tree, but that would be extremely time consuming.
DBH ...., diameter at breast height
Rut, on the red pine, what is the approximate diameter of the trunk as you look at it? How many thinning have the red pine been through? What is current stocking level or basal area if you have had it measured recently. If your red pine is >12” DBH, I could recommend a buyer or a contact if large enough acreage.
He's asking about the diameter because it determines whether it will be pulp (5-9"), bolts (mini logs essentially, 9-12" generally), or saw timber/poles (12"+). Pulp is hard to get rid of because there are only a few mills that can use it. The bolt market is a little better. The saw market and pole market are pretty good.
The DNR forester should be able to answer most of your questions and get you going the right direction, but you will end up dealing with another forester to get the job done. That will either be a consultant who works for you or a mill forester who works for the mill. There are mill foresters who are great to work with but realize they work for the mill so some won't have your best interest in mind. On the same note, some consultants are outstanding and some can't find their ass with both hands. Get references and look before you leap.
Regarding the hardwood thinning, be careful. If the stocking density/canopy closure is not high enough thinning can do more harm than good. Those are measures of how "full" your woods is. Hardwoods need a happy medium. Too open and the trees left will not thrive and you may end up brush/junk/invasives taking over. If the hardwoods is dominated by oak which is common in your area, it's a little different approach.
If your plan expires the end of 2021 you are very unlikely to get a sale set up, sold, and harvested by then and the DNR doesn't really have enough time to enforce compliance/withdrawal so you have a little more control. It also means you need to decide if you want to re-enroll. There are very few instances I would ever recommend not being in MFL. If you do want to, you will need to hire a forester to write a new plan. That can be part of I negotiating on the sale process. That plan needs to be written by June 1.
Let me know if you have any questions. I realize that much of this process is gibberish to most people and can be daunting. We use a lot of jargon and acronyms and in general overwhelm people with information.
Skook is doing a great job on here. Be careful with county foresters as well. When I and my brother logged and were buying county sales we called them county clowns! What you are doing is tough for someone with little background or knowledge. When you decide to cut whoever you hire be sure to thoroughly background check them. Even then there is no guarantee but there are good loggers out there.
Yes Skook is correct. We had a county forester come through our property. A good portion is aspen. He recommended to clear cut. Most people don’t like a clear cut but the reasoning made sense to us. We have loggers in the neighborhood right now logging a number of neighboring properties but it appears they are just thinning or cherry picking the bigger stuff. Not sure if they spoke to a forester but when he approached us a week ago we passed. Also agree with guys recommending a consultant. They’ll know what to watch for and who to use and better yet who not to use.
we recently purchased 60 acres in south/central Douglas Co. and debating having it logged for better deer habitat - it's currently not enrolled in any program(s) and has quite a few large oak but mostly maple & poplar - any suggestions on forester(s) and/or logger(s)?
maine, first step is to connect with a forester and tell them your plan. Certain species require certain harvest methods for proper regeneration.
I set my buddy up for harvests on his 120 acres near Corny. He has two distinct forest types. First thing after he bought the property, I had him get the basis documented. He then had a consultant forester (Groeschel, now retired I believe) manage the harvests.
This year my buddy commented how happy he was to listen to me and get the harvests completed. His property now has thick bedding areas holding a lot of deer. They killed one giant during bow season and passed on several others.
If you have enough property, you can stagger harvests so you always have super habitat.
Much of WI is hurting with Verso shutting down in Rapids and Duluth. I have about 500 cord of Red pine pulp that is just going to rot with Verso shutting down. I need to find another buyer, if there are any.
This link provides a lot of information about the different aspects of forest management. There is so much to consider and most forest owners just don’t have the knowledge so getting help from consultants is generally the best to avoid serious issues/damage to ones property. My philosophy is that forest harvests should never be about making money. Unless you have a high percentage of veneer (usually <1% of a saw timber harvest), you won’t be taking much of a vacation. Factor in capital gains (remember having a basis on record for your wood volume helps), the end take home isn’t much.
Start with the local DNR forester. They can get you pointed the right direction and answer your questions/give you advice.
The basis Treefarm referred to is your cost basis which establishes the value of your business, which is exactly how land should be treated-as a business. You should track all of your costs (taxes, payments to consultants, equipment....) and your income (timber sale proceeds, etc). When properly documented you typically won't owe taxes after a timber sale.
Another tidbit most people (and many tax people) don't realize that income from timber sales is taxed at a different rate than regular income. It is 11% rate.
...and to minimize the taxable amount of your timber, you are taxed on the volume of timber grown since your ownership. If your basis was 1500 cord of oak when you purchased the land (basis), and 10 years later, you had 3500 cord, that 2000 cord grown is taxed differently than original 1500 cord when purchased.
You can read this article to help.
That's a better explanation of what I was going for.
In the end, it is confusing for most everyone. Even CPAs have to be searched out to interpret forestry tax law. I think forest owners contribute so much good environmentally yet get taxed up the wazoo. MFL is a savior for many and helps stop unscrupulous harvests to pay taxes. There is no downside to MFL.
Great night. Deer moving early. 10 so far but 150 yards away. I guess I need to move a stand!
The only time I ever tell my clients that they might not want to enroll in MFL is if they might sell within a short time frame or if they might split a parcel. Otherwise I agree with Treefarm. It's all upside.
Treefarms tax info is spot on. I remember my Dad having to "school up" his tax guy after the first cut. We are do/ overdo for a cut but do to wet conditions and our logger being busy we keep being put off which is good now due to price. The county forester was satisfied hearing this too. It seems the county foresters are more relaxed enforcing cuts than years past. It really sucks if your forced to cut when the price is low.
Skook, Treefarm or anyone else for that matter. What do you guys think of Elderberry for planting in some areas after logging?
Elderberry will move in on its own. Personally, I don’t care for it because it takes room and sunlight away from more desirable species. I actually have so much and remove what I can.
After logging you will have so many suppressed species grow, and not all these are desirable. You may get brambles and other thick crap initially.
What comes after logging largely depends on how much over story is removed. I would never make an effort to plant elderberry because it moves in by birds all by itself.
Good to know, thank you. I thought it would be something that might come in naturally. I have a friend in Michigan who loves it in his bedding areas. He plants it on his land whenever he can.
I totally agree with tree farm. Wait to see what comes up after logging then plan from there.
Awesome discussion! What we are doing now is doing some clearcuts, seed tree release cuts and areas of select cuts. I am putting the clearcuts and seed tree release cuts in parts of our woods where I want bedding/cover - this will also create tons of food. In areas were we don't want as much bedding, we are doing a select cut. In one of our woods we are taking out everything except the maple, our sugar bush.
In 2018, finishing up last winter, we clear cut 7 acres out of a 33 acre woods. The 1 acre cuts are on the south and north facing hillsides. Last spring I went in and planted white spruce and some norway spruce. We have a 3 acre food plot on the SW side of the woods planted in soybeans, brassicas, clover mix, winter rye and switchgrass. The clear cuts alone have turned this into a wildlife hotspot. We designed it mainly for better deer and better deer hunting - It's working! BC
Does anybody have any recommendations for a consultant in the Clark county area?
Fill this out to narrow down to your needs.
I'm in Rusk County and I work with a guy who lives in Point. What do you need?
It would be nice to have a recommendation from one of you guys. Maybe somebody you know or have worked with. I have the names of some of the guys in my area thanks to treefarm's link. Just looking for forest management to improve habitat. I'm thinking about 10 acres of poplar removal and I also have 10 acres of hardwood I'd like suggestions on.
BigEight, you are on righht track getting professional guidance. You highest challenge will be finding a logger for a smaller job containing two prescribed cuts. Don’t give up (or give in). Regardless the harvest size, all regulations have to be followed. Just don’t walk away unhappy...you are on track getting a consultant!!
I do my own jobs, but only because I know the logger tricks. I use DNR forester for other aspects associated with MFL mandates.
Yeah, I wish I knew more about it. I'm definitely willing to do the cutting myself but just want to make sure it's going to be done right. Definitely more to it than just cutting down some trees. I'm still on the fence about MFL because I'm a control freak and want to do things when I want to do them. I'm working on my character flaws ok !!!!
I may be dead wrong here but this is my MFL concern. Every property around me in MFL seems to have been basically clear cut. They take out so many trees that you can't possibly use tree stands anymore as you are sitting up on an open flag pole like trees. Can the land owner limit the cutting or is clear cutting the norm in MFL?
Jtek-you are wrong. The MFL plan is written by a forester based on the timber on the property. It will specify what will be harvested when and how it should by cut. The landowner then reviews the plan and submits it to the DNR if they agree with it. The DNR just makes landowners follow the plan.
Clear-cutting isn't a bad thing-it's the correct prescription for certain timber types such as aspen, poor quality red maple, etc.
People often refer to other types of harvests as clear-cut that really aren't. They're seed tree cuts. It leaves a seed source but lets abundant sun to the floor for species that need it such as red maple.
Only certain timber types can be managed by intermittent thinnings. Landowners and the general public often don't get that.
Then you have timber savages that just cut everything that has value and leave nothing but junk. It degrades the stand and it will take 100 years or more for it to recover. If it ever will. They are the reason I left industry.
jerk, ai will mention that if the properties are truly enrolled in MFL, harvests are being done properly. Harvests are not completed with where best tree stand placements will be, but done with succession in mind.
Read Skooks last paragraph, a free-for-all harvest will decimate a proprty for well ever a century, sometimes forever until action is taken.
The type of harvests can be done with tree stand placement in mind though. That's what I do. I marked one of our woods two weeks ago, I mark the trees not to cut for tree stands, the seed tree release areas and our consulting forester marked the trees in our select cut areas. A different approach I know, but it works for us and this woods should turn into an amazing hunting woods with good timber. Also keep in mind a degraded stand logged incorrectly can still be excellent wildlife/deer habitat and hunting. BC
I have my onsite meeting with the county forester tomorrow morning. I'm going to take all his advice/suggestions into consideration and will probably end up hiring a consultant. I have talked to a few foresters on the phone that have told me it's difficult to get loggers to come to my area due to no mill nearby. I'm ok with waiting on timber harvest as my goals are wildlife/timber orientated as opposed to monetary. Thank you everyone for contributing to this thread. This is all fairly new to me and I really enjoy learning about all of it that I can.
I ask a question and you respond by calling me jerk? Pretty bad typo so I assume intentional? WOW!
Um. What do you think autocorrect would change jtek to if not jerk? Seems pretty logical to me.
Oops, my fault Jtek. Not intentional. I have little feeling in my fingers so type terrible. Yes, auto correct error. People who know me get some pretty wild texts but they piece it together.
A lot of good advice on here. We logged back in 2018 and hired a private forester to mark the trees for harvest according to the MFL plan. Then they placed the harvest out for bids and ensured that the harvest plan was being followed by the logger by visiting the site often and collecting the slip sheets. A lot of tops but after 2 years the tops are settling down and provide good deer cover and also allow future trees to grow without being browsed over. We did strip cuts in our cedar areas (see photo) with 66' strips cut running north/south so the west winds re-seed the open areas. Also had an aspen area that was clearcut (see photo)and after 2 years the aspen is thick and between 6'-10' high. pleased so far with the results and we are glad it was done in 2018 as the Rapids mill was nearby
It does make for a hell of a good wood pile. There were over 125 semi loads that went out that winter.
Here is a link to the complete log pile at the staging area as logs were staged per species and also type.
Treefarm,
No worries. Apparently I was a little over sensitive. Maybe at my age I suffer from low T! LOL. I appreciate all your input.
Treefarm,
No worries. Apparently I was a little over sensitive. Maybe at my age I suffer from low T! LOL. I appreciate all your input.
*** Anytime you can walk your woods, or anyone's woods w/ a forester do it! Doesn't matter how deep the snow is. You will learn soo much its incredible. The county foresters will do this for free in the winter or I've been just lucky. I believe county foresters don't write mfl plans anymore but "approve" from consultants and then have to enforce them when they are due?
we had a hardwood select cut at our place in Southern Clark Cnty last month. With the good cold weather and not much snow we don't have a rut anywhere. The landing area is a mess but that can easily be fixed. We got to spend a bunch of time w/ the forester too.
Hardwood log prices recovering at all yet?
we were told they are better but we are trying to comply w/ our forest plan too. If we were do for a pulp cut we would be holding off long as possible. We also had a 10 acre woods clear cut to thicken it up and wanted to get going. All they left were most of the big white oaks and the big wolf trees they didn't want to handle
Log prices are ok. Pulp is pretty much impossible to move. WausauDug-where did your logger take the HW pulp?
i don't know where its going yet. They got the logs out of the woods and then had to leave last week due to the mud. He told us a month ago they were going to be bidding on the saw logs but don't know about the pulp. I'll keep you posted
I have a friend who is a forester with USFS in Bayfield County and he said the log prices were decent. Pulp is another story.
We just do not use paper like we used to. Everything is electronic!
The problem is that the Verso Mills closed. We use more paper than ever, it's just Verso makes a specialty paper and wouldn't adapt.
friend of mine sells tooling for corrugating plants. he told me the nine dragons plants switched a number of years ago, Amazon = cardboard.
Verso should have gotten into packaging material. Glossy paper for magazines was going away fast and the pandemic put the nail in the coffin for them. Too bad they didn’t start making the conversion given how big they were.
the Chinese, "nine dragons" knew, how couldn't we? Well, with all the wood we have someone will figure something out. LP in Hayward makes their Smartside siding but they can't take everyone's wood.
It's not as simple as just "switching". That essentially means tearing down the mill and starting over which is an extraordinary capital outlay. The Rapids mill is ancient and pretty much held together with bailing wire and duct tape. No capital investment has been put into it since Consolidated sold it to Stora Endo.
I see a recent logging operation and the amount of wast in the states is terrible. Tops all over that you could never walk the land for years let alone replant. In Canada what isn’t made into lumber is chipped for other usages. You never see the messes that I see here.
Lincoln cty is terrible . All the miles I put on looking at huge tracks of county land that are unwalkable. I guess their goal is a world class rabbit & mouse populations .
Marinette county does a decent job on county forest land. After the loggers are completely done you can go in and do some clean up for firewood, with a permit. I think its a win/win. Some private land around here is terrible looking when so called completed.
Bayfield County same thing, after logging is completed you can go in and cut firewood, permit is free. Do not know about Fed land
A quote from WausauDug that needs repeating, "We also had a 10 acre woods clear cut to thicken it up and wanted to get going. All they left were most of the big white oaks and the big wolf trees they didn't want to handle." If you do this one thing on your property you will transform into a haven for deer, food and cover, food and cover...
Our loggers leave the tops too, little no return for them to take out of the woods. I use the tops as deer exclusion cages for planting trees within them. I plant clumps of white pine and white spruce for future thermal cover/bedding. I cut some up for firewood for the house and the sugar shack. We also allow some neighbors on to cut for firewood as well. BC
Most of the logging sites I see on county land have been cleaned up completely with whole-tree removal. Many of the county's logging bid sheets put out often requires 1 out of every 10 tops to be left behind.
However, this spring I've seen several recent logging jobs that left all the tops behind and it looked like a tornado came through compared to how neat and clean finished logging sites usually look. I'm wondering if this is a reflection of a poor market for using tops and branches for biofuel.
We leave our tops for young growth to be protected and small animals, birds. I would assume some public land cuts do the same.
