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anybody paying attention
Montana
Contributors to this thread:
sbschindler 14-Mar-21
montnatom 15-Mar-21
SmokedTrout 16-Mar-21
JMG 16-Mar-21
Shortdraw 17-Mar-21
steve 27-Mar-21
Eric Lechleitner 29-Mar-21
montnatom 30-Mar-21
hoyt-6190 01-Apr-21
JMG 01-Apr-21
sbschindler 12-Apr-21
steve 13-Apr-21
sbschindler 13-Apr-21
steve 13-Apr-21
MT Livin' 14-Apr-21
SmokedTrout 15-Apr-21
steve 16-Apr-21
montnatom 17-Apr-21
SmokedTrout 18-Apr-21
SmokedTrout 30-Apr-21
steve 01-May-21
sbschindler 03-May-21
Upstater 06-May-21
ROUGHCOUNTRY 06-May-21
BigMuley 10-Aug-21
sbschindler 10-Aug-21
BigMuley 10-Aug-21
sbschindler 11-Aug-21
BigMuley 11-Aug-21
sbschindler 11-Aug-21
BigMuley 11-Aug-21
sbschindler 12-Aug-21
BigMuley 12-Aug-21
Austin 28-Aug-21
sbschindler 28-Aug-21
sbschindler 28-Aug-21
BigSkyHntr 30-Aug-21
JMG 31-Aug-21
Whitney 09-Sep-21
Zombie Killer 28-Sep-21
SmokedTrout 29-Sep-21
Zombie Killer 29-Sep-21
Missouribreaks 02-Oct-21
sbschindler 02-Oct-21
Missouribreaks 02-Oct-21
sbschindler 03-Oct-21
Missouribreaks 03-Oct-21
Zombie Killer 10-Oct-21
Missouribreaks 14-Oct-21
sbschindler 15-Oct-21
Missouribreaks 15-Oct-21
sbschindler 16-Oct-21
Missouribreaks 16-Oct-21
Zombie Killer 17-Oct-21
Missouribreaks 17-Oct-21
sbschindler 18-Oct-21
Zombie Killer 03-Nov-21
From: sbschindler
14-Mar-21
Anybody paying any attention to the Legislature this session, Hunters are taking a beating

From: montnatom
15-Mar-21
yes, paying attention and you are right. I've sent comments in on multiple bills but not doing much good.

From: SmokedTrout
16-Mar-21
I have been as well, and certainly do not like what is going on. HB 505 needs to die. And what bothers me even more is that this bill came directly from FWP.

From: JMG
16-Mar-21
Yes. Been busy writing emails to individual member of these committees on some of these "bad" bills. Freaking joke what is going on in Helena on the attack on sportsmen and women.

From: Shortdraw
17-Mar-21
Same on this end. Sending emails etc....I haven’t heard any updates on anything. Have they passed anything or has anything been shot down yet?

From: steve
27-Mar-21
SB 143 as of yesterday, via Pat Flowers, still in the finance and claims committee, unclear whether it will die there or get resurrected. That's all I've got . Steve

29-Mar-21
looks like chasing bears with hounds is still going that a win

From: montnatom
30-Mar-21
I'm good with the muzzleloader hunt...waiting to see what happens with SB 111 re crossbows, and SB 143 has been amended and back to committee

From: hoyt-6190
01-Apr-21
Sb 111 was tabled today. 13-6. Hope it stays tabled.

From: JMG
01-Apr-21
Thanks for the update. Good to hear.

From: sbschindler
12-Apr-21
I want everyone to know who saved our butts this year at the legislature, there were several groups that did go way beyond and yes indeed saved our butts, in no particular order, The Montana Bowhunters Association, The Montana Wildlife Federation, The Traditional Bowhunters of Montana, and the Back Country Hunters and Anglers, and the Montana Sportsmens Alliance. there is one more glaring fact that we should research, One political Party went out of there way to privatize and commercialize our wildlife. the did not try and hide it it was the most severe attack we have ever had, The Governor was behind the scenes in nearly every anti sportsmen bill. the next time we get a chance to vote please remember who your friends were and are.

From: steve
13-Apr-21
Steve, thank you for the update,and thanks to the groups you mentioned. That being said I have never nor will I ever cast my vote hinging on my recreational pursuits. My vote goes where I think it best serves my ability to provide for and keep my family safe, nothing else matters.

13-Apr-21
Here are my feeling on who saved our butts at the legislature . I agree the MBA and Traditional Bowhunters are great !! But as far as Backcountry Hunters and Anglers , The Montana Wildlife Federation and the Montana Sportsmens Alliance are from my knowledge, are by know means on the sportsmans side !! WOLVES IN SHEEPS CLOTHING !!

From: sbschindler
13-Apr-21
traditional archery,, you are very wrong, sorry do some research

From: steve
13-Apr-21
traditional archery, I couldn't agree more !

From: MT Livin'
14-Apr-21
Traditional, before you start spewing biased opinions why don't you back up your statement with some facts?

From: SmokedTrout
15-Apr-21
I'm just glad those groups all helped to stem the tide. Anyway, we all have different tastes in who we give our money to. As for me, I don't trust the current legislature until they are long gone, so I will wait until that happens to celebrate. The only real good news is they don't meet again for 2 years!

From: steve
16-Apr-21
Yes, Trout, we all have our own tastes , thank you for being so open minded. As for me, I'm very happy with the current legislature.

From: montnatom
17-Apr-21
glad to see muzzleloader season signed by governor yesterday. I'm all for more hunting opportunity.

From: SmokedTrout
18-Apr-21
steve, I should have been more clear. I don't trust any legislature until they are out of Helena. I'm non-partisan, I pretty much don't like any of our politicians. That said, I hold my nose and vote every chance I get.

From: SmokedTrout
30-Apr-21
Ugh. Check out SB 637 which is on the way to Gianforte's desk. Any non-resident who booked a hunt with an outfitter prior to April 1, but failed to draw a license, can get his license now. Just has to show proof of booking before Aug 30th. More outfitter welfare, more leased private land.

From: steve
01-May-21
YEP, 143 basically got tabled and 637 got amended with an added 3000 nonresident elk permits. So the FWP got what they wanted and the outfitters also got what they wanted, and the sportsman got another big fat one up the backside. Wonder when the rest of us taxpayers get our handout on the backs of the sportsman ? I'm done supporting the FWP with my overpriced license dollars, will be the first time in 47 years that I haven't bought a resident hunting license. I'm done.

From: sbschindler
03-May-21
just remember who is doing this

From: Upstater
06-May-21
There is over 33 million acres of public land to hunt in Montana. There's over 60 million acres of private land, Of which 10% is leased by outfitters. Some of you guys make it sound like trying to find a place to hunt, Is like trying to find a place to park in Manhattan!

From: ROUGHCOUNTRY
06-May-21
Thanks for the stats.....The 60 million is where most of the agriculture occurs and holds game. The 10% that is leased is the "cream of the crop" so to speak. I have some great areas of public land but I cherish some of the private land owners I have convinced to give me access. I don't lease or have exclusive access to any pieces.

Much of the public land is grazed/leased by the adjacent private landowners/ranchers and it's obvious which pieces they own and which are leased for grazing. We're talking grazed to the dirt on the public and much better grass just across the fence on their own. One of the reasons I don't consider many of the land owners "salt of the earth." We're not even allowed to retrieve game on public land during one or two months a year in the fall yet their cattle pound the shit out of the marginal habitat especially in eastern Montana along riparian and water holes. It's abused plain and simple and yet hunters are often the bad guy. I don't mind packing out animals but closing roads and off road travel often limits older hunters which I never considered but I'm one of those guys now approaching my sunset years......

From: BigMuley
10-Aug-21
I think we missed out on a good opportunity to allow the older and disabled hunters back into the woods. Should have supported the crossbow bill. Every time it gets voted down the elderly and the disabled go somewhere else for the support ie: the outfitters. They want to hunt so they go where they are treated with respect. Whenever you cut one group out, another is going to take it's place. They will not support any group that doesn't support them. Don't forget, they are the ones that have been taken out of the woods. Now we have shoulder seasons from August to February. Ridiculous!

From: sbschindler
10-Aug-21
BigMuley there isn't a bowhunter in Mt who don't want to help out the disabled, lets keep helping the disabled 1st on the list, Montana has one of the best programs in the hunting world that helps the disabled bowhunter to be able to hunt. The PTMAE , Permit to modify Archery equipment, it is very adaptable and very easy to operate. Much easier than lugging a 18 lb crossbow around. the real problem with the crossbow is in every state they have been allowed for the disabled, with in 3 to 5 years it was legalized for everyone, this really hasn't been a real big problem in many of the states that only have Whitetails for their big game, BUT in the western states and in particular Montana Elk come into play, Make no mistake these crossbows are extremely accurate for 1st time shooters out to at least 100 yards, and they are shooting arrows capable of full penetration on elk. Lets take the breaks permit for instance, right now the most sought after Hunting district has a 80% success rate in the draw, What would happen if we were to not only increase the harvest success rate but the applicants for those permits would increase by 10 fold, why you ask, well because the success rate has increased from 10 to 12 percent to a minimum of 30% account the 100 yard accuracy with out even trying,, the fish and game is not going to let the elk herds be dicimated they will reduce the number of permits and we would see a tremendous increase in applicants because of its ease of use, so we have lots more applicants for fewer permits, This will happen, We don't have to go thru this, the Permit to Modify Archery Equipment is fully adaptable to any condition, make no mistake being disabled is an extreme hardship for someone who wants to bowhunt, But there are things in place right now that allows any disabled bowhunter to be able to bowhunt.

From: BigMuley
10-Aug-21
Hello sbschindler, obviously you are not disabled and are not subject to the restrictions of the PTME. Whether disabled or not you have to agree that the equipment approved by the PTMAE does NOT work for everyone. Even the Draw-Loc needs to be modified for many. Did you know that a verticle bow with a Draw-Loc attached to a wheel chair constitutes the same stable structure as a stock? Second, what gives you the right to tell someone else they cannot hunt without a partner or cannot access Block Management property because they rely on a wheeled or tracked vehicle? To me it sounds like pure greed. All you want to do is protect your time in the woods during the elk rut instead of allowing a person the independence to hunt on their own. All you want to do is to determine who and when they can hunt. I hope you never have a disabled person in your family that ask you to take them bowhunting. I hope you never have a disabled member of your family in the military that comes home from war and ask you to take them bowhunting. I hope your elderly parent never ask you to take them bowhunting. You would have to deny them the opportunity because you may not get YOUR tag. You know that the more restrictions that YOU impose on another individual improves YOUR chances to get your precious tag. You have NO respect for the animal that your are hunting because the equipment you are denying the disabled will penetrate an elk all the way through, obviously yours will not. Causing harm or wounding to an animal by using substandard equipment like obviously yours should be illegal. Maybe you are the one that needs to be regulated.

From: sbschindler
11-Aug-21
BigMuley,the Permit to Modify Archery Equipment is not about excluding anyone but its all about including, sure some of the equipment has to be modified that's the beauty of this, it will adapt to everyone. and include them into the archery season.

From: BigMuley
11-Aug-21
sbschindler, the adaptation of the PTMAE equipment is illegal. The equipment is very specific. The law does not allow for an accommodation. Any adjustments to this equipment is not approved by the state. Some organizations in the state believe that as long as they use the base equipment that they can change it to meet the needs of some. It DOES NOT under the current law adapt to everyone. Cost is expensive and there are very few that are willing to redesign this equipment. It is unsafe and should not be approved.

From: sbschindler
11-Aug-21
its clear to me that your intent is to legalize the crossbow 1st,, instead of helping the disabled, the equipment available today is 100% legal, and to modify it for an individuals handicap is 100% legal. the mission is to help the handicapped and we have equipment available that does just that,

From: BigMuley
11-Aug-21
That is where you are wrong. I do not want the crossbow approved for everyone. I want the disabled to have a choice. I don't want you or anyone else telling them what fits them. The disabled are regulated nowhere else in Montana Law. I don't want you telling the disabled that the only way they can hunt is your way. I don't know who "we" are that has the customized equipment available but they obviously don't advertise. Maybe because the equipment is not approved by Montana. Just because you build it doesn't make it legal. I believe the Attorney General needs to be aware that there is non commercial equipment that is being built that is not Draw-Loc approved as per the current legislation. Things like chin stocks. Not legal, still a stock.

From: sbschindler
12-Aug-21
the rules are no one can use a crossbow during the archery season the disabled aren't treated any different. they are however allowed certain modifications to their equipment that allows them to be able to hunt during the archery seasons without having a dramatic impact on the season structure and anyone else. So like I said b4 its clear you are more interested in legalizing the crossbow than helping the disabled

From: BigMuley
12-Aug-21
The “Permit to Modify Archery Equipment” allows a person with a disability to use modified archery tackle that supports the bow, and draws, holds and releases the string to accommodate the individual disability (arrows, however, are not exempt, and still need to meet current requirements for the archery season as defined in the annual regulations). Crossbows may not be used during the archery season.

The only part of this rule that excludes crossbows is the last sentence. Hopefully it will be changed. Equipment modifications that are being done are way beyond the scope of this law. In the last legislation, non disabled tried to add the limitations on disabled people who would like to be accommodated by the use of a crossbow by disallowing a bolt drop compensation on a crossbow scope. Well little known to most is that scopes and arrow drop compensation sights are perfectly legal in Montana on all archery equipment. Another way to deter the disabled from crossbow use. PTMAE forces a disabled hunter to ride with a companion that must have an archery license but cannot hunt while riding with a disabled hunter just in case they wound the animal or need to retrieve it after a kill. Why don't they have the same right as others to call someone to help them? You say that you are for the disabled? Bullpucky! If you were for the disabled, you would help them when they need help and not force it on them. You would give them the opportunity to be accommodated in any manner necessary (including the use of a crossbow) to result in an ethical and independent hunting experience. No guarantees and no restrictions. Just like you! That is what it means to help the disabled. Don't forget, the disabled can purchase a tag, put in for the draw, and receive a license that might keep you out of the woods and not even use it.

From: Austin
28-Aug-21
Big mule, if the crossbow becomes legal for disabled hunters it will only be a matter of time until it will be allowed for anyone and everyone during the ARCHERY seasons. In which case the number of "archery" hunters will increase, success rates will increase (especially with capability to shoot long distances with relative ease and minimal practice) and permit numbers will be decreased. In that case, everyone looses, including the disabled archers who have no problem using the PTMAE and are grateful for the opportunity. And block management is private land, many landowners are more than willing to assist disabled or elderly hunters.

From: sbschindler
28-Aug-21
Austin that is their goal, they pretty much don't care about the disabled they are using that platform to legalize the crossbow in the Archery season, I see there is an organized effort from a group of people some being non residents, suing the Mt. FWP for not allowing the crossbow into the archery season and BigMuley is part of that group

From: sbschindler
28-Aug-21
Senator Brad Molnar R-Laurel and 3 others sued Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks on August 24th for not allowing them to use crossbows during Archery Season. 3 days later, FWP decided to allow the plaintiffs to use crossbows this fall. If that concerns you, I'd recommend attending one of the several open houses at regional offices around the state in the coming weeks. 77% of Montanan's opposed this bill when it was introduced in the 2021 Legislative Session. Great Falls- Aug 31 Glasgow- Sept 1 Bozeman- Sept 7 Billings- Sept 8 Miles City- Sept 9

From: BigSkyHntr
30-Aug-21
Wow. I agree with Sbschindler 100%. I am not for ‘limiting’ the disabled/handicapped any more than they already are, however I am absolutely against crossbows.

I can think of several private ranches off the top of my head that allow ONLY handicapped hunters which I think is good. The truth of it is, is if someone wants to hunt bad enough THEY CAN! But like was mentioned it seems once crossbows are allowed for certain people it’s only a matter of time before they’re legal for anyone. And we don’t need that in MT. If it would be a guarantee that they only stay legal for disabled I would support it!

From: JMG
31-Aug-21
The issue I have is the definition of "handicap" ... what I'm referring to is the handicap "stickers" or license plates for parking in a "handicap parking" spot. You get some person that stubs their toe and they apply for a handicap sticker and get one. These are the same folks you see walking from their vehicle in and out of the store with no issue(s). I believe it opens to the door to get abused by some people. The "Permit to Modify Archery Equipment" has been in place for several years and there has not been any problem with the system in place. I know for a fact the MBA has actually helped some disable individuals modify their equipment and MBA members have taken them hunting.

From: Whitney
09-Sep-21
I can understand both sides of this debate. In my mind todays modern compound bow is much more like a crossbow than a recurve or a longbow. I hear of guys killing elk out to 80 yards (or more) with a compound bow. The technology debate has been beat to death, however. Being in my 70's I've had to go to a lighter pulling bow and I when the time comes when I can no longer pull that I guess I'll hunt with my camera and a gun. That time will come.. It's not a matter of if, but when...

28-Sep-21
Back to the question of what party does what: https://helenair.com/opinion/columnists/fwp-issues-tophy-elk-permits-to-wilks-brothers/article_623ace96-68eb-5e40-802b-d832987df7c2.html?fbclid=IwAR1u21EDAVQIhA3P-xWSIFea6QXqeJxSmP85dRV5_ilf4IoHWU0LjOqgtuw

From: SmokedTrout
29-Sep-21
That sucks. Continued privatization of our wildlife, and it is only going to get worse. I'm not sure I agree with the idea to make the commissioners elected positions, but appointing cronies has to stop.

29-Sep-21
There is a noticeable trend in who does what and what side of the aisle they are from during the legislature.

02-Oct-21
What are the logical solutions? Nowhere in America have private landowners been forced to allow public hunting on private deeded lands.

From: sbschindler
02-Oct-21
forcing landowners to allow hunting, is not and has never been part of the discussions, allowing wealthy political donors special privileges and the political party who allows and promotes this is the discussion.

02-Oct-21
Ok, I was thinking about controlling the elk herd numbers. Had it wrong.

From: sbschindler
03-Oct-21
I believe the best way to control elk numbers is to have reasonable objective numbers in the first place,

03-Oct-21
It has to be difficult to try and please all agendas.

10-Oct-21
US representative Jason Chaffetz of Utah is a leader in trying to get rid of public lands. The idea that there is and always will be plenty of public lands for hunting and fishing and off roading etc. is only as secure as who one votes for.

14-Oct-21
Looks like the Bull Mountain Ranch is for sale, harboring 700 elk and providing access to locked land. Here is your chance to purchase the land, and open it to all of the public to enjoy. Stop complaining, act now!

From: sbschindler
15-Oct-21
yeah right breaks, 14 million most people I knw have that laying around

15-Oct-21
I get it, but tough to complain then.

From: sbschindler
16-Oct-21
so what you are saying if you have lots of money or happen to have a ranch handed down to you you and you alone can bitch about wildlife but the ordinary Joe can not defend or complain how a public resource is managed,

16-Oct-21
Hunters of course can bitch all they want.

17-Oct-21
Or we could vote for representatives who don't publicly advocate for selling public lands and block legislation to make corner hopping legal. https://ravallirepublic.com/news/state-and-regional/montana-legislature/montana-house-rejects-corner-crossing-bill/article_8bcacf41-5f17-53f5-afeb-cb3f0b5c60f3.html

17-Oct-21
I agree those are great ideas. Unfortunately Montana may become the second Colorado, maybe though that would be better.

From: sbschindler
18-Oct-21
seems like we're headed towards being like Texas,

03-Nov-21
more evidence. just read it: https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/water-activities/5-reasons-you-should-try-fly-fishing/

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