Mathews Inc.
AZ G&F Proposal- Terminate OTC Deer Hunt
Arizona
Contributors to this thread:
StickFlicker 11-Apr-21
StickFlicker 11-Apr-21
dirtclod Az. 12-Apr-21
AZ8 12-Apr-21
StickFlicker 12-Apr-21
StickFlicker 12-Apr-21
AZ8 12-Apr-21
creed 12-Apr-21
AZ8 13-Apr-21
Novembermadman 17-Apr-21
Novembermadman 17-Apr-21
StickFlicker 18-Apr-21
Novembermadman 18-Apr-21
David A. 18-Jul-21
Knothead 18-Jul-21
jlsaz 09-Aug-21
bowbender77 09-Aug-21
jlsaz 09-Aug-21
454bull 31-Aug-21
Coyote 65 29-Sep-21
BOHNTR 30-Sep-21
Coyote 65 30-Sep-21
From: StickFlicker
11-Apr-21

StickFlicker's Link
As many of you know, the Arizona Game and Fish Department has proposed eliminating a large number of the OTC deer hunts beginning this year. Some will be eliminated, others will move the entire unit into a draw-only system similar to the Kaibab and Strip. You can read a summary of the proposal as well as a second proposal drafted by concerned sportsmen and sportsmen's groups, at the following link. There is also a survey where you can vote as to which of the two proposals you prefer. This survey will only be open a few days since the data will need to be presented to the G&F Commission by late in the week. Please read the proposals and respond to the survey. Thank you.

From: StickFlicker
11-Apr-21
In my opinion, there are a few major problems with the way that Game & Fish manages these OTC deer hunts:

1. The Department's mandate is that when the archery harvest in a hunt unit exceeds 20% of the total deer harvest (all weapons) in that unit, they either close archery hunting seasons or move the entire archery hunt for that unit to a drawing. This is flawed because the 20% is just an arbitrary non-changing number. No matter how much of the population leaves rifle hunting and moves to bowhunting, this would never change to match the new dynamic.

2. As they continue to close more and more units to bowhunting, they do nothing to limit the number of OTC permits that can be sold, and that number is increasing each year. Those increasing numbers of bowhunters have fewer and fewer units to hunt each year, which causes them to exceed the 20% harvest limit, which in turn closes them to OTC bowhunting. It's a self-fulfilling prphecy. The only possible outcome of that continued management trend is that virtually all OTC hunts will be closed within a very few years.

3. The Game & Fish's mandate states that the 20% bowhunter quota for each unit will be calculated based upon three years of harvest data, but by their own admission they are only using the last two years (2019-2020) for this year's proposal since the few years prior to that had very low survey response from hunters, and therefore the data was useless. 2020 was an anomaly, in that a much higher than normal amount of people took to the field to hunt (and many more OTC permits were sold) due to the pandemic. So, the dozens of recommended hunt closures are a result of a spike in the harvest in 2020 which will very likely not be repeated in 2021.

4. And as a more controversial point, but one I think is highly relevant, it has become a ridiculously easy point of abuse for people to obtain handicapped crossbow permits and use them during archery-only seasons. While the G&F Department has not responded to requests for this data, I have seen reports that hunters obtaining handicapped crossbow permits have increased from 100 to 2,000 over the past five years. I doubt that there has truly been a sudden spike of handicapped bowhunters by 20 fold in the past five years. It would also not be surprising if the hunting success of hunters using scoped crossbows is higher than those using hand-held bows, but the Department does not track this so they just allow the increased harvest to be counted against bowhunters, and seasons are closed as a result. While this last issue is not addressed by the alternate proposal, I think it is important that the Department should amend the survey to ask the question about whether a crossbow was used and further look at this issue in the very near future.

In my opinion, the alternative proposal would allow the Department to continue to sell as many OTC permits as they wish (supporting their revenue stream) while limiting the take in each unit and protecting the deer populations as desired. It would be instantly responsive throughout the year to any anomalies that temporarily increase harvest, rather than only revisiting them every few years (or ignoring them completely), and would protect the populations even better than the proposal by the Department.

From: dirtclod Az.
12-Apr-21
I'm with you StickFlicker, good call.

From: AZ8
12-Apr-21
Need a better platform than FB. Hard to read proposals if not a member. With that said, I think the elimination or closure of some OTC hunts is overdue. The mule deer are in trouble here. I’m in favor of the current proposals from the Department.

From: StickFlicker
12-Apr-21

StickFlicker's embedded Photo
Game and Fish OTC Deer Hunt Reductions/Eliminations
StickFlicker's embedded Photo
Game and Fish OTC Deer Hunt Reductions/Eliminations
AZ8, I agree about Facebook, but it's not my proposal. I'm just passing on the information. As far as favoring the Department's proposal, if there is an alternative that would accomplish the same harvest limits as the Department is proposing, without eliminating OTC opportunities, why would you not support that?

From: StickFlicker
12-Apr-21

StickFlicker's embedded Photo
Game and Fish Proposal Summary
StickFlicker's embedded Photo
Game and Fish Proposal Summary
StickFlicker's embedded Photo
Alternative Sportsmen's Proposal
StickFlicker's embedded Photo
Alternative Sportsmen's Proposal

From: AZ8
12-Apr-21
“...... why would you not support that?.....”

Because some units need a break. This alternative proposal would still allow hunters to hunt in units that are teetering on the brink. When combined with rifle, many mule deer units have pressure from August through January. Arizona’s total population is pushing 7.5 million and growing every day.

Long ago, I was visiting with an old rancher friend and I asked him why I haven’t seen any cows in the field lately. He said that he rotates the pastures and that the pastures just need to recover without ANY activity.

What’s wrong with just closing some units for a period of time to allow the mule deer a chance? It’s not guaranteed to work, but why not try? As a hunter and conservationist, what’s wrong with doing something to help the deer herds? We need to look beyond our own selfish needs and understand and accept the fact Arizona cannot sustain this current hunt structure anymore. It just can’t. Consistent drought and ever increasing population growth dictates that everyone involved needs to step back and make some sacrifices. Soon we won’t have a chance and won’t matter. OTC hunts coming to end soon is clear. The only question then will be which weapon will you choose?

For now, let’s just give the mule deer a break.

From: creed
12-Apr-21
I don't know much but personal observations from spending Dec/January hunting desert muleys...... lots more hunters in the areas I hunt, less quality bucks, less fawns, more overall human presence. From someone that lives to hunt desert muleys I say put the whole thing to a draw.

From: AZ8
13-Apr-21
I concur creed.

On the main page discussion, the theme there is how the money and revenue stream will continue with the alternative proposal. Funny how no one is concerned about the deer numbers.

17-Apr-21
With the option of shooting ANY buck now, would it help to split the Coues and Mule Deer tags up? I hunt where they both exist but am mainly after Coues. If a big muley shows up he's getting shot at but if they split the tags up by species do you think that might help to take some of the strain off the Mule deer?

17-Apr-21
Nevermind.... I just reread what you posted Marv and it addresses what I mentioned..... carry on!

From: StickFlicker
18-Apr-21
Randy, based on your trophy photos it looks like you hunt Arizona more than you hunt your own state!

18-Apr-21
I split my time equally in both states..... grew up in WI but reside in AZ now. I'm back and forth every week!!

From: David A.
18-Jul-21
Wouldn't have much of a problem if we were all hunting with recurves and longbows like in the good ol' days. But no, technology marches on and no one has the courage to stop it. Inevitably if technology is not limited, hunts will be...fact. So here we are 2021 and more bowhunters will not be hunting deer this year. I guess I'm partly to blame, I have nearly 100% success with my little recurve bow.

From: Knothead
18-Jul-21
I prefer the sportsman's recommendation over what G&F is currently proposing. Looks like some real thought has been put behind the recommendations and not just a bunch of emotional hooey.

Is it possible for an anti-hunter or someone who doesn't like bow hunting to falsely report killing a deer? If enough people did this it has the potential to close a unit prematurely or at least raise our success percentages. I believe bear hunters have to submit a tooth but what should successful deer hunter submit?

From: jlsaz
09-Aug-21
The decline really started back in the late 90's when they passed the initiative that banned leghold traps. Coyote population exploded and fawn recruitment took a nosedive.

From: bowbender77
09-Aug-21
Agreed !

From: jlsaz
09-Aug-21
Lions take a deer every 10 days, coyotes are hitting about 40% of the fawn crop in a lot of areas, and even higher in some, the Mexican gray wolf is expanding its range and taking more and more deer, (primarily mule deer) and Arizona's human population is exploding, taking more and more habitat; so, it's no wonder the Game and Fish Department has to take drastic action.

From: 454bull
31-Aug-21
Some great discussion here but it does no good among us. Need the thoughts and suggestions to be heard and answered by G&F.

From: Coyote 65
29-Sep-21
There is a herd of mule deer that I run into every time I head up one particular canyon near the house. Alpha doe is easily recognisable as her face is almost white. The size of the group varies between 10 to 15 does and one fork horn. Saw them this morning as I was out while it wasn't raining. Two fawns with the group. I am sure the coyotes got the rest.

Terry

From: BOHNTR
30-Sep-21

BOHNTR's embedded Photo
BOHNTR's embedded Photo
Saw this one last week

From: Coyote 65
30-Sep-21
Saw the fork horn this AM, lost his velvet. Antlers were a dark red. He hates small juniper trees.

Terry

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