I hunted the Cimmaron last week. Called a tom to the fence andet him walk off at ten yards with 3 Jake's in tow. Called his bigger buddy in the next morning and he skirted me at 30 yards, once again. On the wrong side of the fence.
So few around,I am saving for some kids.I wish they could figure out what happened to them.Around 5 years ago we found half a dozen dead or dying while shed hunting and I talked to guys in other counties that said the same.I called F&G but they just said they didn't know anything about it.There was some disease that went through.
Agree with Randy, very few around on my spots this year and am hearing that elsewhere. A buddies boy got one at one of my spots Wed morning, and I took another during youth season but they skirted us and were still bunched up.
I'm on the road for several weeks, but hope to get back after'm in May with my brother and his two boys. Are you coming up again to hunt Shane?
I’m seeing more birds in my travels around the state, and around home, than I have in years. I’ve called in 2 different gaggles of jakes (6 and 4), as well as several young hens so far, and I just started hunting yesterday. As opposed to seeing almost no jakes the past 2 years. Very encouraging!
I'm not a turkey hunter, but we typically have at least 150 (the most I've ever counted was 4 years ago at 205) that winter on or around our place. Usually in 3 or 4 groups, including a big bachelor group. This past winter the most I ever saw was 26. It is probably to be expected considering the flooding we've had the past few years during nesting times. My brother, a quail hunter, is convinced turkeys have destroyed the quail population, insert eye roll. So, he's quite pleased the numbers are down.
The year after we found them shed hunting we saw 1 tom. and it has been slow since which showed us how bad the die off was as we were seeing dozens of toms the year before.Theres some good stuff on the Hunting public utube from last week on turkey populations
The Oklahomans at the gun shop in Woodward were talking about the turkeys disappearing. I guess tags have been reduced down there. I saw more than usual, but the winter flock for miles of river reside on the place I hunt.
The decline of turkeys certainly isn’t restricted to Kansas. They’ve been affected across their range. It’s gotten particularly bad in the South. States like Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, etc, have a fraction of the birds that they did just a few years ago. They blame things like hogs, and the clear cutting of hardwoods, that are later replaced with pines (poor turkey habitat). Those certainly aren’t the problem for us, though. I think our issue has primarily been extreme weather events during nesting season, as well as increased hunting pressure. I’m hoping that the 1 tom rule for most of the state (and hopefully the rest to follow) will help us out over the next few years. It certainly can’t hurt.
When we were finding them they were either already a pile of feathers but there were a couple we just walked over and picked up that were still alive. A couple were piles of feather a few days later when back in same area.
The remaining 2 bird counties in Oklahoma went to 1 this year. Massive declines over the last decade. Would probably be a good idea to reduce overall limit here. You can still kill 3 in Oklahoma overall.
They sent out a report the week before season. In the report, they asked hunters to consider not taking their limit this season. Kind of scratched my head on that one. If you're asking then that is probably the way it needs to be.
My place is heavily trapped,issue would maybe tend more to be hawks as that is a problem with quail as we have seen them snatch them mid air.I had a hen nest in my orchard last year. She was right out in the heat.She sat on the eggs for 14 days that I know of and then she was gone.Don't know if they hatched or not.
Coons are hard on them, but they don't cause entire flocks to disappear. Grew up hunting thousands of acres with more turkeys than we could keep track of. Very few folks hunted the coons. Two guys in fact, and they didnt hit it very hard.
Hunting along the Ark River west of Great Bend for a youth hunt this weekend. Saw herds of jakes while scouting today. Up to 9-10 in a bunch. Hunt host saw a group of 16 a few days ago.
I can’t speak as to every part of the state, but I think they had a better hatch this last year. 2 or 3 bad hatches in a row can really take a toll on turkey numbers. Fortunately they can rebound quickly, too.
SE Kansas we’ve had horrible conditions for nesting the last 3 years. Numbers are definitely down, but I have to ask... is that really a bad thing? I don’t want them to go extinct, but a lot less of them would not hurt my feelings. Feel the same about white tails. All of wildlife is horribly managed, in my opinion.
I’m hoping we’ve broken whatever cycle we have been in, but for selfish reasons.
Please don’t misunderstand, I love wildlife. All of it. I’ve literally spent my whole life living it and spending time outdoors with my family. I cherish each moment outdoors. you know this... or should.
I just don’t think we need the numbers we have of certain species. What constitutes a “good population”? Seems out of balance, IMO. I don’t have the answer, but I’d gladly give up 20-30 deer per square mile to have a few more coveys of quail. Out West? Hopefully the Mule Deer numbers can increase in certain areas.
Hogs? If they make it to this area I might change my tune on extinction, but we are not dealing with a natural specimen anyway.
We’ve had an over abundance of Turkey for several years in my area. They are not all dead, don’t want them to be, but I personally kind of like the population where it is now... which seems to be roughly half of what it was 10 years ago.
The weather has allowed me to take my son a few times this season... haven’t heard a gobble. Doesn’t bother me or him one bit, we did have a hen come in, full strut, and beat up our decoys for over 2 hours last weekend. Nonstop. Never seen anything like it. We named her Caitlyn. I’m guessing it’s maybe the same strutting hen we had come in on us 2 seasons ago. We’ve driven around looking/glassing for turkeys to sneak up on... no luck, but didn’t bother us. Had fun in the truck. I guess what I’m saying is less turkeys, less deer means you have to work harder to be successful. But I guess I might be one of the few who enjoy the pursuit WAY over the kill.
SE Oklahoma has been on the decline since 2007 or so. That’s when we were peaking. I slowly watched the birds disappear to the point we stopped hunting them around 2012 or so. Still very few birds and also the reason the wildlife department moved to a two week season and only one bird per the SE counties.
The western and NW part of the state has really taken hits on turkeys the last several years from what I’m hearing as well. This goes hand in hand from what I’m hearing from you guys in Kansas.
My feelings on the decline of turkeys in my area of SE Ok... (1) Hogs, (2) poor hatch cycles due to weather/floods, (3) disease, (4) predators, and (5) hunting pressure. With Hogs, disease and floods, being a large factor, IMO.
Have not seen enough around my spots to get me motivated to even go get a tag. Saw several strutting toms along the turnpike between Wichita and El Dorado Lake two weeks ago, but have not seen a single one on my travels around home since.
A buddy and I spent Monday-Thursday at Milford. Hunted public and 1200 acres of private. Messed up on a Tom and only seen two others. Three hens total and the scary part Zero Deer.
Drove from Wichita to KC last Monday and back on Tuesday. Drove during daylight and saw 0 birds. That’s never happened to me during this time of the year. I’ve driven that drive enough to know where to look too.
We've been out a couple times, there are definitely not as many birds as in years past around where we hunt, My oldest son got this one last weekend with a 410. Called in 4 toms, he held it together and put all his practice to use. Pretty proud of him.
Less on our farm today when we purchased it in 2007; however, saw 6 different jakes so far this weekend and 4 toms. Jakes should mean there was a good hatch last year. This is in Carroll county MO.
I’m gonna head up Thursday to take advantage of the “5-10 mph winds” supposedly forecast for Friday! Looking forward to visiting with old friends and hanging out a couple days. But hey, it’s Kansas. Wind prolly be kicking up 30 mph...lol Just hope I can find ONE lonely Tom!
If you hunt hard enough, you will find some. There certainly aren’t as many birds as there usually are, but they’re around. You might just have to put in some effort to find them. I’ve been on birds every time I’ve been out. Have been within 50 yards of a longbeard twice, but haven’t been able to seal the deal. They’ve been outsmarting me. It seems as though the less birds there are, the smarter they get! Maybe I’m just getting dumber... ;)
I have an old bird that I’ve been on four times. Decoys an absolute no go. And with no decoy he hangs up at 80 and struts and drums. Our bird numbers are pitiful down here. Looked today and we’ve checked in less than 5000 birds in Oklahoma with one week to go. Son missed one during youth weekend. Only chance we’ve had. If I don’t get one this weekend it’ll be the first time in I can’t remember how long not killing one.
There were about 6500 checked in last year and 20000 in 2019.
Same here... not seeing the numbers. Not complaining. We’ve got birds though, definitely harder to pin down, but I’m enjoying the challenge trying to get my 9 year old one.
We had a blast this last weekend, stalked and crawled up on a small group, got within shooting range, but a coyote over 200 yards away ruined our hunt before we could get set-up... a little skittish.
I think our ground-blind hunting is over for the season, can’t even get a hen to respond... going to be a lot of glassing and stalk attempts if the weather allows this season.
There's a few crossing my place, but they are transient and using a mile of creek. Normally, they set up camp and dang near roost in the same spots every year. I'm not seeing any at the other places I hunt, so I'll probably just let them live unharrassed this year. I've been killing a lot of crappie lately though
I've been catching them shallow since April 1st. In the last few days its gotten really good though, and I've even seen them chasing each other around stumps, which I assume is some sort of spawn behavior.
I'm chasing that bird one more time in the morning then I'm going to admit that he's smarter than I am then I'm loading the boat and going after crappie.
I would say the population in NE Reno county is down 95%, at least the farms I hunt from 12 years ago. The drought in 2011 really hurt and they have been on a steady decline since. One farm I hunt the landowner watched over 700 birds move from one field to another. I had 389 birds walk by my blind in January in 2008.
That same farm had 40 turkeys in 2019 and didn't see a single bird in 2020.
I have seen 4 turkeys driving roads since March. Four. Very sad for me, I love hunting spring birds. Haven't bought a spring tag in 4 years. If you have any birds to hunt, good for you.
We had plenty of coons back when we had strong populations. Ranches in Texas still filthy with birds have coons, armadillos, feral pigs... Was talking with a friend about that area Ironbow. For quite a few years it had the highest wild turkey densities in the nation. It's the only spot where winter flocks near 1,000 birds were ever found. Some say the problem is hunters are killing dominant birds before they get a chance to breed, then the hens won't breed with a subdominant bird for a while. Large ranches, in those same states, with no turkey hunting don't have as many birds now, either.
Anybody else believe the "main" reason for quail, turkey, prairie chicken, and several other species have declined in numbers, is No till farming? I mean, what's the point in wasting money on farm machinery, man hours, and weather dictating the control of weeds, we'll just spray it with herbicides and pesticides and be done with it, then it runs off into the water and fish eat it, absorb it, then we eat the fish, and on top of that, I also believe that the corn, and wheat, soybeans we eat suck up these chemicals and wala, we have out of control cancers because we eat this stuff. " "Some say the problem is hunters are killing dominant birds before they get a chance to breed, then the hens won't breed with a subdominant bird for a while". Michael, That sounds like some propaganda coming from some educated fish and game "expert" trying to justify his/her job with BS. I'm saying just maybe it is the damn chemicals we are using on everything under the sun. But I didn't go to college so I don't know nuffin.
Dale has a point, and we've discussed it here before. Not only are some of the pesticides toxic, to humans and animals, they kill the bugs these birds need to thrive...how many grasshoppers did you see last Summer?
I’m no expert, but I believe that there are a few things that have contributed to their decline... not just one.
Chief, we do some no-till, we don’t use any more chemical on no-till vs conventional. The weed resistance to these herbicides is unbelievable. All no-till does is eliminate one pass of tillage for us. I’m not sure on the bugs... you may be onto something there, but we rarely use pesticides other than in soybeans late in the summer. I’d like to see more research on that topic for sure. I’m more concerned about quail than I am turkeys, personally.
Honestly, I think weather has played the biggest role... 3 extremely wet Springs in a row. The Neosho River and a local creek got out of its banks several times in 2019. Coyote population is apparently out of control since they’ve added NV.
I've said this before and agree that clean farming has hurt bird population, I suspect chemicals (as a poison) might have something to do with it, and I believe that aerial spraying of pastures has something to contribute. Last spring I watched aerial sprayers carpet bomb pasture around our place for a month straight. They spray broadleaf herbicides. Our native forbs are huge contributors to insect populations and seed production, without them I'm sure the ecology is hurt. I also agree that rampant nest predator populations hurt our birds as well as raptors. And I think weather events have an influence. And I fully believe there are plenty of unknows that I'm unaware of that could be taking it's toll. And, and, and...
Count me in as one of them that believes that the pesticides and herbicides have played the largest role in the turkey, quail, pheasant and p. chicken declines. Spring and late summer weather has played a part, especially with the upland birds with hail and big spring rains affecting their hatch and young populations.
At my hunting spots, it has been feast or famine when it comes to bird populations. The weather and farming practices in the area are the only two things that have notably changed in my 40 years of hunting birds on the properties. The same crops have been grown on the feed fields, but chemical use has increased as tillage has been reduced. Human populations in the area around the fields have remained virtually unchanged, especially in the quail and pheasant habitats. Hunting pressure has been reduced on the acreages I hunt as many of the hunters that shared properties with me have either died off or quit hunting like we did in the 70's and 80's.
The dominate bird theory sounds silly, influenced by the anti-hunting lobby perhaps?
There was a recent article on one of the major outdoor magazines online of a study that shows 60 percent of deer in certain areas have traces of herbicide in their spleens.
The dominant bird theory has some scientific research behind it. Dr. Chamberlain brought some of his research on that topic to the Alabama Conservation Board in an effort to start the season later.
I personally in the camp that believes it is more of a (death by a thousand cuts) than one underlying issue. Between the multitude of avian diseases, flooding, wet springs, loss of prey due to insecticides, habitat loss, and nest predators. The birds have had the cards stacked against them for a while. It also doesn't help when you have outfitters or landowners that allow double-digit toms to be killed off their small properties.
Todd, Reno/Rice has a couple of outfitters that claim they kill 150+ birds a year..... We wonder why we don't see the numbers we have in the past around that area.
I pretty much agree with The Kid... I've listened to Dr. Chamberlain several times. The dominant bird thing does have research behind it. But... his work is totally on Easterns. Rios tend to be more precipitation driven. Some of our biologists down here think that maybe the highs of the mid 2000s were more of an exception. 2011-2012 knocked everything way back. I just think it has been too hit and miss with weather since.
I'm hunting a place that has minimal pressure (just me). There were probably 8 to 10 guys hunting this same place back in 2003-2006. I'm the only one in the immediate area these days. I've killed three birds off of it since 2012. They just aren't there anymore.
Don’t know much about the dominant bird theory. So won’t comment on that. However, I know overall Turkey populations from Piney Woods of east Texas to Georgia have been impacted in the same way the Midwest has and due to more timber than Ag there ain’t much aerial spraying, no tillage or use of Pesticides/Herbicides going on in those areas and their in the same boat as everybody...no birds? The SE U.S. has been battered the last few years with sever spring weather and are fast becoming the new tornado alley. We too have had torrential Spring flooding the last few years. To me that is a common denominator.
For me, I believe the problem here in the Midwest and especially KS is multiple years of little to no bird reproduction along with unheard of and unchecked nest predators especially bald eagles. Those things are killing machines and I have video from last year of a Bald Eagle (that nests in the area) dive bombing my decoys.
For the aerial sprayers, pesticide/herbicide believers out there....weren’t those same farming practices in use back 10-15 yrs ago when bird populations were doing A-OK and going strong?
"For the aerial sprayers, pesticide/herbicide believers out there....weren’t those same farming practices in use back 10-15 yrs ago when bird populations were doing A-OK and going strong?"
Yes, and see what has happened, crestedbutte. I have only experience as to what things used to be like, and when I sort out all my thoughts on the problem that is what I come up with. I don't turkey hunt, or quail, or pheasant or even deer hunt anymore, but with all the family and friends that tell me they ain't there anymore, I get a raging head ache thinking about it, along with all the permits, license, and hunters that have been allowed in order to fill the coffers of the state. In comparison, it seems elementary to me, that you can't allow 10 fisherman to fish a 100 ft diameter pond forever. How many turkeys can a person take now?
I use to frequent Eureka's airport, and over the last 30 years there has been an aerial spraying outfit there most of the spring time. Emporia airport has sprayers there almost weekly, and they go constantly sunup to dark for 3 or 4 days at a time when the wind permits. There was a BIG cattleman in southern greenwood county and it appeared that his goal was to spray and kill every living hedge, bur oak, and cedar tree on his properties, and he had thousands of acers.
They have been aerial spraying pastures in this area a lot in the last several years, saw them just South of my home this last week spraying. Last year, a detention lake I have hunted/fished for 30 years now had a big fish kill right after all the surrounding pastures had been aerial sprayed. Trees on this parcel died from overspray drifting over from adjacent properties. Biologists speculated that the fish kill was most likely a algae bloom or other low oxygen incident due to drought and heat, AFTER I had told them it had killed many of the turtles of the pond as well. They would not come investigate the incident further as it was on private property. I did not own the lake, if I had I would have wanted to know what happened. The owner did not wish to pay to have the water tested, he accepted their response as probably being true. Turtles do not die from lack of o2 in the water, they come up for air, for those of you not catching onto the obvious.
Hens get bred by lesser toms and jakes all the time, does by lesser bucks, pure bred poodles by cur hounds when given the opportunity. The theory that the dominate males do all the breeding in the animal world, are responsible for maintaining healthy population numbers, does not seem very scientific to me. It shouldn't to anyone who has spent time out in the woods and observed nature first hand. Yea, the big boys get their fair share, but while they are busy with the alpha females, the betas and charleys are getting busy behind the scenes with the little guys. The ladies submit when ready to be bred, at the peak of their cycle or estrous, when they tire from all of the pursuit and running away from it, not just because the bull of the woods enters the scene.
I know farmers from this area who fly down to Mississippi where they have thousands of acres of row crops down there. One drove his tractors and combines down from here because it was cheaper than buying replacements down there or having his extra equipment shipped down there to use. They use large amounts of chemicals just like they do on their land here since switching to no till.
JT-I doubt there are many streams in the USA that won't show measurable levels of them in the water.
Just last week while I was at the airport in Emporia, a caller called and was mad as hell, demanding the spray plane quit spraying as it was drifting over his house, and already had a head ache from it, and it wasn't even spraying his property. The airport worker could not make them stop it, and he told them to call the sheriff. Don't know what the outcome was, if any at all. Got me to wondering just who has control/authority over the actions of these spray planes.
The suggestion on the dominant bird theory isn’t that the subordinate birds don’t breed. It is that early seasons disrupt the breeding cycle. If a dominant bird is removed, the sexual selection has to kick in again with strutting and selection of a mate. If dominant birds are killed really early it leads to later and later nesting which may not be under ideal conditions.
There are no ag fields, or spraying of any kind within many miles of here. Bird numbers are still way down. The area of the country with the highest bird numbers right now is states like Minnesota and Wisconsin, where there is lots of spraying. I think our biggest problem has been severe weather during nesting time.
Chief- When Dad was alive, he and I were dove hunting my corn south of Eureka when I heard the unmistakable power of a turbine plane flying so low I could not see it. I was in the middle of that hedgerow lawsuit and the neighbor was known for his stubbornness and I figured he had sneaked in a spray on the trees for a slow kill. We followed that Air Tractor out to the Eureka airport, and he beat us by about 5 minutes. The guy stepped out of his camper parked at the end of the runway and I asked, "Did you just spray the hedge on the east side of the Pike property?" The pilot looked at me and said, "You must be Mr. Thornton. Mr. Pike said you were "sensitive" about the hedge, so I sprayed 60 feet west". The pilot was from Missouri and he shows up every year to spray the pastures of Greenwood County. I hate seeing those things operate, but at least he was very accurate and didn't get any of my property.
The two that spray in our area are out of Oklahoma. Neither has shown any regard for property lines, wind, drift, label restriction related to water/water ways, or accuracy. Unsure how they've kept their applicator license.
The biologist was so sure he was right about the algae bloom or low oxygen level causing the issue instead of drift or runoff poisoning, without once seeing the pond in person. He didn't know that there is rarely a day there where the wind doesn't blow 10-15mph, enough to cause waves and water movement that helps keeps it aerated. I had told him about the turtles in the initial conversation, was shocked to hear him suggest low o2 levels. Told him I knew in grade school that water turtles breathed above the water line, that neither issue would kill them off. He then told me someone was probably shooting the turtles, again pure, care less, tell them anything just to get rid of them speculation on his part.
I agree it is more than one thing causing low population/reproduction issues. Diseases, weather, no till farming practices, burning during nesting season, less crp, hunting pressure, failure piles (more chemicals being fed to them), predators (coyote, hawks, and eagle numbers are way up from what they were 10 yrs ago) to name a few.
Kyle, you mentioned a lack of grasshoppers in your post, have not noticed there being a lack of those up here. The cricket population has been at Stephen King levels, and the Asian Ladybugs, swarms of them! Did notice fewer Junebugs last year, not as many cicadas. There were far fewer songbirds seen in 2017-2019, last fall their numbers were back up some. I didn't see as many raccoons or squirrels last fall, compared to record numbers of them in the previous 4-5 years. Have had more issues with mosquitoes and ticks than I ever remember there being back in the 70's and 80's. We spent a lot of time in the woods and at the area ponds as kids, I never remember spraying down to fend the bloodsuckers off, nor being chased out of the timber by them. Chiggers, now that was a different story, they tore me up as a kid, nettles, poison ivy and oak got me several times too. None of those are an issue now, know how to avoid them for the most part.
My area was one of the last to see large flocks of turkeys after the reintroduction. You would occasionally see 6-12 birds in a flock at first, then at the peak of their population numbers, you would see winter flocks of 200-300 birds. It was not unusual to see multiple large flocks less than a half mile apart. We had good numbers of turkey until the last few years. Low numbers were being reported elsewhere around the state and the country, we had too many until recently.
Between Mother Nature and Man, guess best to sum it up that the turkeys are in a re-boot stage. Good thing our Spring (so far) hasn’t been daily statewide flooding like the last few years. If it holds, I would expect biologist reports to consider conditions this year as being favorable for a good 2021 hatch.
Should re-visit this post in 5-10yrs. and see if KS is better or worse than 2021?
I was raised by old school rancher types. When the chickens and quail were thick, we hunted. When they weren't, we either didn't hunt, or found another place that had them. I've killed more turkeys around Eldorado than anywhere else, and I'm just not seeing them anymore. I've been doing a lot of fishing in the wildlife area, and have heard zero gobbles and seen zero birds, which is extremely odd. My fishing trips usually provide enough intel to kill a bird in short order. Our town flock that likes to strut around people's yard has disappeared as well.
Hahaha Thanks again guys! I'm looking forward to your video Dylan. Be Still: A guy called me that since I was a lefty and it stuck. Turns out Billy the Kid wasnt a lefty at all. Kaleb.....If anyone should be called "The Man" it should be a world record holder like yourself!! haha
Good Luck to those still holding tags! I saw two separate toms out cruising by themselves early this morning while driving to a TSI. I'm guessing the majority of their hens are on nests.
Well, as promised, here is the footage from this past weekend. Hope the wind isn't too painful and the editing isn't near as good as what Chris and others do. Hope you enjoy and hopefully the video captures the beauty as I viewed in person. Was one of those magical mornings and it just proves you never know when things will come together.
Thanks all. It has been a fun year and I hope you all are getting some time to enjoy the outdoors as well. I am cautious on where I have been hunting or taking other and a bit nervous about the decline, but I wanted to point out the NWTF membership drive I recently found. Even if you aren't a huge turkey hunter, they are currently doing a re-sign for $35 with a $25 Cabelas/Bass Pro card in return. Pretty hard to beat in my opinion and if anything can bring back or find an acceptable balance to the population, I think the NWTF organization is the one to lead the way. Good luck to all of you out hunting or working on projects for fall.
Cool article, thanks for that. As I started reading it I thought to myself that coyotes and other predators would probably eat the cicadas as well. Saw that it was mentioned later on.
The last time we had a cicada outbreak I didn’t have to buy dog food for a whole month... no joke.
