So tell me I'm wrong
Contributors to this thread:Massachusetts
From: Lunker
13-May-21
So I brought this up before. In my old spots I've noticed rubs and scrapes way down overall. In my 2 new areas wasn't much at all either ( I hung stands anyway) sure trails poop feeding stuff like that. Now right now I'm in the middle of some good private that borders state land. Prob 5 or 600 acres. No rubs or scrapes ! I've found 2 kill sites. A scull with small antlers sawed off. Trails beds poop but no rubs and scrapes ! I'm almost convinced when there are to many does the bucks are not marking territory. I mean there is water food big oaks it's perfect. Tell me I'm wrong
From: DanaC
13-May-21
Oaks are great - *sometimes*. If you get a poor year for acorns an oak grove will be deserted *unless* there's a few trees that are dropping. If there's plenty of doe sign, hunt it during the rut.
PS buck's don't mark 'territory', they mark travel corridors. But if you find a lot of rubs, it may be a bedding area that buck returns to often.
From: Lunker
13-May-21
Dana thanx for your input but your missing the whole point. My theory as of the last few years is scrapes and rubs are down in my areas. Has any one else noticed. And I'm wondering if it has to do with high numbers of does. And PS thanx for schooling me on acorns and territory vs travel corridors
From: Lunker
13-May-21
Jeeze did you even read what I was asking. I DIDNT find lots of rubs its not all bedding it's 500 acres. They bed all over the place. This ain't iowa where you have 700 acres of food and a finger of timber
From: Will
13-May-21
Lunker - I do think that areas with lots of does and few bucks show less rut related sign like rubs and scrapes. That said, deer are deer and do deer stuff, so there should be some. Is it possible changes to local habitat have altered deer habits a bit. For example a housing development changed likely buck travel or a new beaver pond did the same?
From: Lunker
13-May-21
There was a giant warehouse built 5 yrs ago and has never had occupies. There is deer here tons of foodgrapes black and blue berries lots of chestnut and thoose smaller ones can't remember. And water (river) and I found a deer leg. Fresh. Just came out now may b 2 crampy scrapes. 4 hours in not one rub ! May b no bucks. Idk. I'm hanging one anyway
From: hickstick
13-May-21
unless you have a lot of bucks being taken still in Velvet in november....there are rubs in your area, you just gotta find them. that being said, I agree with Will. buck/doe ratios can and do affect rut behavior, but deer are deer and will to deer things.
while deer do feed on some grapes/berries...they make up a small percentage of their diet. the largest percentage of their diet is browse (stems, leaves, grass). Acorns are 'deer candy' NOT food.
in order to find rubs, you have to find Runs. follow those runs and where they cross terrain features (entering leaving swamps, edges of feeding areas, edges of bedding thickets, etc) you will find rubs on those runs. same with scrapes...they don't just occur randomly on the ground, they have to be in spots where the deer travel...
From: Lunker
13-May-21
My post "tell me I'm wrong"
From: Lunker
13-May-21
You guys are all trying to school me. Listen don't know if yo know or not but this isn't the first patch of woods I fell in. Hick I know those foods I listed isn't a stable diet. What I listed was in addition to. All thoose other things are everywhere. Especially now ! And if your trying to explain to me that rubs and scrapes are in specific places. Surly you jest. Refer to second sentence. Will thank u for your input. That's what I was thinking. But I think there's allittle more to it. And that is what I'm really after. O and hick thanx for reiterating what will said. Lol
From: Big Dog
13-May-21
Lunker , trail cam in Aug-Sept. should answer your question. With all that sign I would hunt it regardless. Very little rubbing in my area but when I find rubs they are meaningful and always are near or on doe runs where he crosses to scent check. IMHO rub patterns can vary depending on the area.
From: Lunker
13-May-21
Ok now we're getting some where
From: DanaC
13-May-21
Ok, your second sentence says you're seeing less rubs and scrapes where you used to see more. Maybe it used to be a 'core' area for a buck or two but more does have moved in and crowded the bucks out. So the bucks are elsewhere much of the time, and when rut comes along they're too busy chasing to bother scraping much.
There was a good book out some years ago on tracing and hunting rub lines, can't remember who wrote it now. Pointed out that sometimes bucks will bed a long way from where most of the does are.
Have you asked your area biologist what the buck-doe ratio is where you're hunting? Balanced or out of whack?
From: Lunker
13-May-21
I was referring to the same post when I said 2nd sentence. Ok Dana that's interesting but again not 1 rub new or old. I'm not saying there isn't any. But I looked really well and spent 4 hours in there. This is the second new spot with low numbers of scrapes. Strange. The first new spot was given to me by a very good bow hunter who lived on the area ( his wife got a 14 pt in 2018 and I saw it) and moved to a farm in Illinois to hunt. That spot to I spent about 30hrs scouting and again I think I found 4 rubs. I did not talk to a biologist but I imagine the ratio buck to doe is way out a whack along with the rest of the state
From: Lunker
13-May-21
It's got to b good to the north there is a lot of woods to the east is a lot of state land. To go to one to the other and stay in the woods they would have to go right thru here. Course they could just cross the road and back yards. Witch they do
From: Will
13-May-21
Actually was thinking about this. My absolute A spot the past few years is sorta similar, but without a river. What's amazing, is that there generally are 1-2 rubs, and maybe 2-3 scrapes. 1 is ALWAYS in the same spot every single year. The others are in a general area, but not exactly the same location.
If I run a cam in here, I wont get a pic of a buck until like late September or more often mid October. From then through thanksgiving Ill get about a 1:1 Buck to doe... OR 2:1 Buck to Doe!
This spot is a combination - it's doe living space so bucks are always looking for love... But it is sort of a giant funnel thanks to housing developments and industry such that bucks from block of timber A, have to go through to get to block B. It's not a funnel like the mag's talk about - you know, like 50 yds wide. In some spots it may be more like .5 miles... But they HAVE to use it. it also has some fantastic spots for bucks to bed while cruising. Swampy spots with 8 foot tall grasses, nasty blueberry thickets, a very steep ridge flanked with blueberry thicket and shrubby baby white pines. It also has lots of food via ornamental plants at houses and acorns etc.
It's got it all... Point being... If you only looked at the sign, you would say mostly does live here. But with maybe 8 years hunting it now... If it's the last week of October until thankgiving, I assume any deer I hear or see part of is a buck until proven otherwise - it's crazy how often they use it.
Soooooo... Maybe you just found a spot like that. Where some bucks may pop in and out all year, but really, it's the key 6 weeks from mid October-Thanksgiving when the most are in there, and they are trolling, so not a lot of sign being left.
I'm thinking optimistically for you!
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
13-May-21
I’m with will and you lunk. When I fond doe sign and it’s there year round, bet your ass come November I’m on it. Only takes a buck one slip to die of a punctured lung and a broken heart
From: Lunker
13-May-21
Thanx will it's along those lines is what I was looking for and something to think about and makes sense. There is some houses that back up to it and I did not go onto their property large wooded yards that the home owner never even seen the back of his lot. Wooded swampy narly stuff. Could be rubs and scrapes in all their back 9. Idk. Very informative
From: DanaC
13-May-21
This book -
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164765021233?epid=305737&hash=item265cc2b431:g:VhoAAOSwoNdf~mNs
From: Lunker
13-May-21
Dana c thanx man
From: Lunker
13-May-21
Settled. Hanging my last stand in there
From: Big Dog
13-May-21
I read a book years ago by Greg Miller, Rubline Secrets.I wonder if that's what DanaC had in mind.
From: Lunker
13-May-21
Love Gregg Miller. He use to be on mathews solo cam show a lot. He gave insight on why he was doing this or that. I like that
From: DanaC
13-May-21
BD, yup, that's the one on e-bay
From: Big Dog
14-May-21
Story about Greg Miller : fell from his tree stand steps and broke his arm when he was just 5ft. off the ground. Of course, that ruined his season but it just goes to show how easy it is to do. He discussed it on one of his shows and it was before the advent of lifelines.
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
14-May-21
Oh lunker. Btw. Your wrong. Seeing no one else did as you asked.
From: Lunker
14-May-21
Wow that took a long time. I thought it was gonna b arlow simply saying "your wrong"
From: Big Dog
14-May-21
If shooting a big buck is wrong I don't want to be right.
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
14-May-21
I’m always wrong big dog !!!
From: Sosso
15-May-21
It doesn’t take too many doe to push out a buck.
From: Big Dog
16-May-21
Sosso, true, so you just have to be there when Miss Doe has a change of heart.
From: Lunker
16-May-21
My arrogance has taken over. This is my last and 9th stand. This spot has to be good. It's a funnel with everything they need. If it works may b it will b a new trend hunt the cold sign. I will go back 2 more times for final decision. O ya one more thing parking is perfect. As you know that rarely happens
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
16-May-21
Parking? You need parking spots to hunt? Ouch. Lol
From: Jebediah
16-May-21
Parking is a big factor, sadly.
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
16-May-21
I don’t envy you guys a bit. My biggest decision is how far I want to travel into the woods 90% of the time. 1-2-3 miles. 4-5 depending on the direction I take out the back door
From: 8's or Better
16-May-21
Lunker so I have been battling the same thought process in my A spot the past two yrs. I know I have big bucks in the area and have plenty of pictures. The food is there. The travel corridors are there. There is a large community scrape and a few scrapes under the same tree every single yr, but the rubs aren’t there. Your spot could be an awesome spot based on sign, but you just haven’t found his CORE home base. You will find the Rubs if there are bucks there. It took me 7 hrs tracking in the snow this yr to find an area I have never ventured to and it was littered in huge rubs. So I am currently is the process of changing how I hunt that big deer I was after last yr. I do agree that a large Doe population can effect how these deer act, but Dana and Will said Deer will still do Deer things. Once you find the bedroom you will find those rubs
From: Lunker
16-May-21
Mmm mmm sounds good. Like I said this spot I've never been in before. I didn't go everywhere. I said it's about 600 acres and I prob covered 350. And out of that 600 there is prob another 600 of private back yards across the river that are super thick that I did not go into. Also there is many many acres separated by a road or the power lines so ya great point
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
16-May-21
Still wrong. Leave the bucks for when I come out there ;)
From: Lunker
16-May-21
No bucks here. That's the point
From: Shanation
16-May-21
Dr Grant woods is known for not hunting over buck sign. Theory is 90% of the sign we see is nocturnal. Setting up outside those zones gives you better odds. I like the idea but it is hard to walk past a stinky scrape
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
16-May-21
They’ll be there when it matters lunk. I promise. I can sit the first few nice rut days if you want.
From: fran
16-May-21
Shanation, It makes sense it's like we are trained to set up on the sign but thinking outside the box and setting up in unmarked areas seems like a good strategy.
From: Lunker
16-May-21
Actively looking for the invite. I got some spots I'll put u on no prob
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
16-May-21
Idk those leaf blower’s might scare me outta there lol
From: Big Dog
17-May-21
A few monster bucks die of old age by thinking out of the box and being consistently inconsistent. Lunker , if the aforementioned spot has does it'll pull cruising bucks. I've seen some good ones that weren't leaving a whole lot of sign but were cruising on their faint run connecting doe areas. IMHO the trick is to be able to spot his run which is often not as defined as the doe and skipper run. I.E. I hunt a N-S ridge between feed and doe bedding. Does move over the ridge W toE to bedding and bucks run the length (N-S) of this little ridge trying to cut an estrus track. There are few if any rubs and hardly a scrape on the ridge but when things get hot bucks run it any time of the day but mostly all morning. Just got to put in time on the stand just before peak rut.
From: Lunker
17-May-21
It's def a big funnel and better yet there is a pinch point within the funnel. Houses and the geography push them down to a point where swamp on one side and a giant rock or ledge outcrop up to 40 ft tall on the other. I actually sat in the rocks and thought it was a pretty good ambush. Between the rocks and the swamp is only about 30 ft.
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
17-May-21
That’s my thought big dog. If I have a spot with tons of does when that peak rut comes and their in estrus he’s gonna come check it out and try and find em without a doubt. Matter of being in the right spot at the right time like always!
From: Will
17-May-21
Some interesting points here I'm going to try to learn from this fall. Which makes me think of something... Historically, I looked at spots and said "whats the hardest to get to undetected, nasty, horrible location? That's where I'm going."
But with increasing frequency, I'm seeing that spots one could call tactical close to the road may be just as good. A steep ridge with good cover 100yds off or a nasty swampy thicket right there may be just as good as those deep spots. One trail I go to with my family for walks is a heavily hunted public land spot. Several times the last few years on lunch runs/walks with my wife we have pulled in to park and watched a deer (mostly does) walk into this 8-10 year old cut over that's thick and nasty, but literally abuts the parking. Inspection over the winter showed they clearly bed in there.
Point being, perhaps the really classic looking good stuff in the area offers less hope than the stuff that feels "to" obvious. Maybe check the stuff close to access?
From: Big Dog
17-May-21
Will, you're correct. Last fall in a tent blind I shot at and missed (always a deflection !!) a big buck who was paralleling a just used walking trail . He was cutting at right angle the tracks of does who crossed the trail earlier hoping to find one ready to rumba. This was 8:30 AM when the morning hikers and dog were gone. He probably had them patterned and while he was in open hardwood when I saw him, security cover was only a few bounds away. It should be noted there was very little buck sign but the does had been there earlier. I was set up close to the trail because I was unable to walk further and ,as Will remarked, it was the right spot.
From: Lunker
17-May-21
My # 1 spot I've been sitting for years has a trail that travels right with the highway for 400 yrds. Prob 40 yrds off the highway. There is also a smaller secondary trail closer to the highway. Pro 25 or 30 yrds
From: DanaC
18-May-21
There's a spot I like to still-hunt once a year during shotgun, roughly parallels the road but climbs a finger ridge up. I can be 400 feet 'above' the road and watch school busses drive by, while following fresh tracks in the snow.
Another spot, 75 yards in from the road, too close to hunt legally, but the camera gets deer, coyotes and bear.
Deer are unimpressed by our mighty works ;-)
From: Lunker
18-May-21
Dana c 75× 3 = 225 ft. The law is 150 ft from a road.
From: ARLOW
18-May-21
Lunker not if there are houses on that road.....
From: Lunker
18-May-21
But of course. That wasn't mentioned. If the dog didn't stop to take a crap .... Awe you know the rest
From: Arrownoob
19-May-21
Lunker you’re more experienced than me but if I walked into a spot and found a deer skull with antlers cut off and no rubs I wouldn’t be that interested. I want to be where they know there’s plenty of big deer around and they are rubbing up the trees in anger. And someone is shooting spikes there so there’s pressure and they’re probably not using the same standard as you.
From: Arrownoob
19-May-21
Lunker you’re more experienced than me but if I walked into a spot and found a deer skull with antlers cut off and no rubs I wouldn’t be that interested. I want to be where they know there’s plenty of big deer around and they are rubbing up the trees in anger. And someone is shooting spikes there so there’s pressure and they’re probably not using the same standard as you.
From: Lunker
19-May-21
Appreciate the input. I'll tell ya big deer. Big rubs all good stuff. In my part of the world I'm trying to think outside the box. Last year it paid off big time hunting a small parcels of land with NO TREESTANDS. You know thats hard to come by. My thought is this is a good spot I'm hitting it. More scouting trail cams will be incorporated soon. My guess it's gonna work. It may fail that's ok to. I have 8 other stands in place ready for a great season
From: Lunker
19-May-21
Noobs see that's part of my original question big angry deer rubbing scrapping overly aggressive. Is it possible they do that in preparation to fight to get the does ? And if true is it also possible if they don't have to travel into another bucks area and fight and Mark territory because there is an "overabundance " of does , does everywhere that they don't have to be as aggressive and possibly less rubs and scrapes ? I don't know I'm no archeologist just trying something others aren't
From: Lunker
19-May-21
May b the dad head I found got hit by a car and someone found it and cut antlers off. Really the dad heads got nothin to do with nothin
From: Lunker
19-May-21
Dead dead head not dad head
From: Big Dog
20-May-21
Lunker, I see many more does than bucks where I hunt and few rubs and rub lines . IMHO that situation makes a fresh rub significant because it was usually done to mark a heavily used doe run/area he will check again. Many of the rubs can be down wind of doe travel. It all goes back to buck/doe ratio affecting buck behavior . With that said , there are exceptions to every rule and some bucks are genetically programmed toward aggression and might rub more ; but that's for us to figure out. In nature nothing is set in stone. That is the mystique of deer hunting.
From: Lunker
20-May-21
Good info big d. I have really been thinking about this the last few years. Even in my best spots rubs and scrapes have gone way down and I know bucks live there. It's not like we can go to a hill side and binos and watch the food plot and see just how many does there are
From: Big Dog
20-May-21
You got that right; this ain't Iowa.
From: Arrownoob
20-May-21
I have tried hunting areas with poor sign and it didn’t work for me. I do think you should take the dad head seriously don’t ignore facts because they contradict your theory. If it’s loaded with does and you know the does bedding area that will be a great rut spot. Deer running from one bedding area to the next. Sometimes though you know the big deer are deep and hidden off of a primary scrape and they peek out a few times a day to sniff it and see if a doe in heat peed there. If you get a big deer moving through I don’t think it will be his house he’ll just be passing through. But you could have 10 big deer passing through in 2 weeks there all coming from various areas. Like I said you’ve been doing this more than me!
From: Lunker
20-May-21
What is your take of fact about the dad head noob ?
From: peterk1234
20-May-21
I keep seeing this post pop up and still nobody has done it....
Fine..... lunker, you are wrong; so freaking wrong.
I have no idea what this thread is about btw.
From: Lunker
20-May-21
It has been done and it's not my fault you can't follow along
From: peterk1234
20-May-21
It's on me lunker. I have the attention span of a bug :)
From: Lunker
20-May-21
Lol
From: MA-PAdeerslayer
20-May-21
Wait this isn’t iowA?? Damn. I’ve been buying the wrong licenses for years. Passing up “small” bucks waiting for a giant. Gosh darnit. This explains everything now.
From: Big Dog
21-May-21
Ma-Pa, "Is this heaven? No, it's Iowa and that's Shoeless Joe Jackson " !!
