More DEC proposals
New York
When is the proposed 9 day Sept. doe gun season in a bunch of WNY units a done deal ? I'm not happy about it or the mandating of fluorescent clothing. I know how to dress with out the mandate which will become just another opportunity for law enforcement to check on you while afield. The early gun season is going to put the deer into a nocturnal mode before archery starts and will no doubt result in some big bucks getting poached.
First I've heard of proposal , not good in my opinion. But NY will do what they want. With little to no concern for sportsman.
Where can we read about this proposal?
When it comes to NY DEC, Nothing surprises me anymore.
DEC PROPOSING NINE MORE DAYS TO NEW YORK’S DEER HUNTING SEASON TAD POLE|June 10, 2021
The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation has a tough equation to solve. Control the states deer population for a healthy herd, yet reduce overpopulated areas where the animals have become a nuisance. They have a plan and it will increase the length of the season in certain parts of the state.
In the DEC's annual Deer Management proposal, certain Wildlife Management Units (WMUs) would have a nine day season beginning on the second Saturday in September. Now this gets a little complicated with only certain WMUs within a given DEC Region open for the extra season. Antlerless deer could be taken by firearms in the following WMUs:
*Region 3: parts of Orange, Sullivan, Ulster, and Rockland Counties (WMUs 3M and 3R)
*Region 8: parts of Erie, Cayuga, Genesee, Livingston, Monroe, Niagara, Ontario, Orleans, Seneca, Steuben Wayne and Yates Counties. (WMUs 8A, 8F, 8G, 8J, and 8N 9A and 9F)
Other changes in the proposal pertain to bow and muzzleloader season, official hunting hours, hunter safety.
*Bow hunting for antlerless would be allowed during the same nine day period in all of Nassau County and portions of Albany, Greene, Monroe, Sullivan and Ulster Counties.
*Muzzleloader Reinstate either-sex deer harvest opportunity during the early muzzleloader season in portions of Franklin, Jefferson and St. Lawrence Counties
*Hunting Hours The proposal would also standardize hunting hours to coincide with most other states. Deer and bear hours would be 30 minutes before and after meteorological sunrise and sunset.
*Safety requiring all hunters pursuing deer or bear with a firearm, or anyone accompanying them, to wear a solid or patterned fluorescent orange or fluorescent pink hat or vest or jacket.
There is also one small change in bear hunting regulations. In the Adirondack portion of the Northern Zone, bear could be taken by firearms all 79 days of the season. Current rules only allow 72 days of firearms hunting excluding the seven-day period where bears could only be taken with a muzzleloader, crossbow, or bow.
The DEC is taking public comments on the proposed changes thru August 28. Share your thoughts by emailing: [email protected] (use "Big Game Hunting Rules" in the subject line).
My real question is what is the process now as far as these proposals becoming law. I see that the DEC is taking comment until August but do they have to authority to just enact this or does this have to be voted by the legislature ? i just want to know who to voice my concerns to and where it is most likely to do some good. I live ,own land , and hunt mostly in 8G and am very against the early doe firearm season.
The link takes you to the DEC website where you can read the Text of the Proposed Regulations and the Regulatory Impact Statement. These two documents should pretty well explain what it is and why they want to do it.
For background, there are "laws" and "rules and regulations".
Laws are those which must be created/changed by the legislature. They are typically those that cover the "major" points that are rarely, if ever, changed. For example, the law states that one cannot hunt deer with rimfire ammunition. If the DEC decided at some point it should be allowed they would need to have the legislature go through the normal bill process to get the law changed. Law changes require the department to devote time and money to get the bill introduced, then must keep their fingers crossed once politicians get involved. In some cases, the department is not involved and politicians make decisions for agencies - this is happening in more states as their fish and game departments lose control. Look at the wolf issues out west.
Rules and regulations can be created/modified by the DEC without the legislature. Basically, there will be a section of the law that says "DEC can create regulations as needed for....." They typically include the lesser points and/or things that change often. Rules and regulations allow the department flexibility to change things often. Based on science, politics, etc, they create proposed regulations and follow the established rules for giving the public notice, allowing public input, and making any necessary changes. They can then implement the rules in the timeframe specified with NO involvement from the legislature required. For example, one year the size limit on bass might be 12" in a certain lake, the next year it's 14". Because rules and regulations are created within the agency there is less cost, effort and less chance of any controversy as usually everyone is on the same page in an agency.
All of the proposals in this thread topic are regulation changes. It appears likely that unless there is some overwhelming public comment that DEC intends to implement them as soon as the day after the public comment period closes. Comments close on August 8 (not 28), so don't be surprised to see it official on August 9 or 10.
Did you see the part where it was mentioned that blaze/fluorescent dress may be required for waterfowling? Absolutely insane.
Agree that it will be implemented. DEC allows public comment to appease the public. Very little if any public comment is considered IMO.
If I'm reading this correctly, as long as I'm bowhunting I will not be required to wear blaze orange, even during gun season. Is that correct?
It says “ pursuing deer or bear with a firearm “ so I believe you are correct Pat.
Just ducked the bullet here in 8S
Ny has one of the best hunting safety records in the country without a mandated blaze orange requirement. The majority of hunting accidents are self inflicted, how does wearing blaze orange keep one from shooting themselves or falling out of a treestand ?
If you are in the woods while gun hunters are they will probably require orange or at least while you are mobile to and from your stand.
Few gun hunters in the Northern Zone will comply with the blaze orange requirement, and the DEC knows it. Just another way to generate more revenue for the state coffers.
Why don’t they require Blaze orange in Chicago ? More people are shot there in 1 day than in all of NY’s hunting seasons.
Squash, that's a damn good point
Blaze orange/pink has nothing to do with revenue, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a compromise in exchange for extended hunting hours.
If DEC had any ballz, they would have made blaze orange/pink mandatory for EVERYONE wandering on DEC state lands (Wildlife Management Areas and State Forests) during the open firearms seasons for deer/bear. Dog walkers, bird watchers, hikers, mountain bikers, etc. The only difference between a bird watcher and a deer hunter is the hunter has a firearm, so if we "follow the science", they are equally at "risk".
As anyone knows, once deer are pursued with a firearm, their patterns are altered at the very least, or they go nocturnal, at the worst. This is an invitation for rampant poaching, as well as bucks, be it button bucks or big racked boys to be killed. In addition, I really do not know what the true intention is, other than trying to decimate the archery seasons in the SZ and NZ with this early firearms hunt, or to decimate the deer herd, because don't forget, the DEC is implementing their Holiday Hunt this year too. So from Mid-September until January, the herd is going to be pursued. Well into Winter, what is left to survive, will be severely stressed, and nutritionally depleted. If hunters and those with them will be regulated to wear Flo-Orange or Flo-Pink, then so should everyone entering the woods during ALL hunting seasons. Hikers, campers, bird watchers, mushroomers, etc... I believe that the DEC has lost it's mind!
Al I agree, but Law Enforcement should be added to your list of who is required to wear BO while in the field.
It’s about revenue, they know hunters will pay.
There is no more inept whitetail program than Néw York. Period.
Squash, I would've thought that it be made mandatory after an EnCon Officer was shot and nearly killed during a field investigation a few years back. Officer James Davey was shot while investigating after hours shooting, his partner, Officer Liza Bobsiene's quick actions saved is life. Pat, so true. Total incompetence.
As a lifelong New Yorker I am not at all surprised to see deer management here to be so messed up. After all, can you name anything that comes out of Albany that is done competently ? It is very sad to see as New York has the natural and ecological resources to be the best east of the Mississippi. It is hard not to make it political, but that is what happens when there are not 2 opposing political parties that have any influence or control.
Yes, and how can they justify the BO requirement, if it doesn't even list bowhunter who happen to be hunting without a firearm during a firearms season?!!
Regarding any potential effects on deer behavior, if an early firearms season is included in September: would it really have much of an impact, considering the fact that nuisance permits have been used for years, especially in the high deer population areas?
Also have the youth firearms season Columbus Day weekend. I think it would have some effects on heavily hunted state land.
Depends on the hunting pressure in a given area. IMO Mature bucks don’t tolerate pressure well, and this may push them out of their early fall patterns sooner than usual. Good chance they will go nocturnal. If the hunting pressure is light or nonexistent it should make little difference. May even help the guys with land that sees no pressure. May just bump some mature bucks into private parcels where they feel more secure.
22 hunters were shot in 2020, one killed by a crossbow while raising it up to the stand. 13 hunters fell from tree stands 1 died.
Relative to Spike78 posts above: 22 hunters were shot in 2020, 13 (or 59%) of them self-inflicted. 10 deer hunters were shot, 9 (or 90%) of them self-inflicted. Extending shooting hours or mandatory blaze orange/pink seems unlikely to affect the number of incidents for who don't practice basic firearms safety.
EHD was tough on hudson valley. But didn't see any change in doe permits be allocated. But not surprised.
Looks like they lowered the quota in 7M, but not enough. Deer #’s here in northern Chenango County are low like they were about 20 years ago when they skipped a year of DMP’s.
NY wants all the deer dead to minimize deer vehicle collisions. These days everything is justified by safety....not how happy the tiny group of sportsmen are. Other states are doing the same thing. Early antlerless is always in the progression eventually because...well why not! Penn State’s deer blog highlighted the type of mgmt Theory that is increasingly being used In my opinion...hint: look up the rat trapping articles. Here’s the short version....no matter how many tags (or rat traps) there are, there will always be some minimum level of deer around. As the population gets lower, so does the ability to kill more. So ny and other states just maximize license sales and tags for revenue. There will always be a deer around Somewhere to hunt and ppl will always buy licenses. Collisions minimized. Win win win for govt. and it’s all being done under the guise of pass the Young buck, shoot a doe instead Because they know ppl relate and support that.
Muzzy, I’ve heard that theory for years (DNR getting pressure by insurance lobby to reduce deer numbers). I’m not sure that’s true. I work for an insurance company and their actuarial models understand and factor in deer collisions and those factors determine the auto policy premiums. I know the lobbyist personally and they are lobbying for more favorable tax regulations, and a host of complicated financial issues that have nothing to do with deer numbers.
I’ve confirmed this with our DEP in Connecticut, they have never met with anyone from the insurance lobby - and CT is the insurance capital of the world.
The DEC, and all state game departments react to public safety, traffic disruption due to deer collisions etc. they have to balance deer numbers against public safety, transportation, homeowner damage and also hunter satisfaction.
The DEC is the most politically intimidated game department I’ve ever talked with. For example they all know that there policies are designed to keep the north country political leaders happy even though the herd is being decimated by buck over harvesting. And they do nothing about it. It’s pure political move. They don’t even try to hide it. That’s why they justify the season and tag structure using terms like “tradition” and “culture” - words that have no relationship with science.
My 2c
Agree Pat. Unfortunately the political leaders at the DEC have the veto power over the professional game managers. I worked at DEC for 32 years in Environmental Quality and it was a constant battle between the Regional field staff and Central Office in Albany. As far as deer management, the Farm Bureau and agriculture lobbies has more power and sway than the insurance companies.
I'm sure everyone you talk to in DNR or DEC depending on which state your in will give completely honest answers to questions that are asked as to why decisions are made. Follow the money!
I spoke to the DEC yesterday afternoon. Here's what I was told: "Right now nothing has been approved. They have just closed the comment period a couple of weeks ago. From there it can get denied or approved. Right now they are telling people just to keep looking on the web site."
tax payer funded comedy at its' worst!!!!!
Comment period is closed. Was it ever open, and what I mean is 'open' to inform opinions vs. 'open' to make the hunters feel like they have a voice when they do not?
I think the only chance you have in NY to influence policy is when your part of a large concerted effort. Its same because NY has the potential to be a very good whitetail state if there was some season and regulation changes.
If it was open, i'd bet nothing was read or considered. JMO.
Merely a formality to say that they offered hunters a chance to voice their concerns/opinions. If they do not take the advice of their field biologists, do you really think they give a rat's ass about how you feel? If they really, truly cared, they would extend an invitation to the clubs and organizations around the state for a forum.
Al hit the nail on the head. Also don’t forget with the new governor most Department head(political appointees) are frozen with the fear of being replaced. I am sure hunting regulations are far down on the new governor’s to do list.
Early September forearm doe season is limited units passes. Legal shooting time is 1/2 hour before and after sunrise.
The NZ bear season is now the entire season Still no crossguns…thankfully
This state is worst
Mandatory Hunter orange too for gun hunters
stupidest crap i every seen, like there isn't enough time already in NY to shoot a freaking doe. We need to add more pressure.
https://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/28605.html Yup - they all passed.
I hunt 3S, 3N, and 3G........so 3N and 3G are unaffected thankfully. Hopefully in 3S people won't care to shoot a doe 9/11? but you have to think poachers will love this reason to be in the woods. The Blaze orange for gun hunting doesn't bother me. I always wear orange to be safe since I gun hunt from the ground.
BO requirement in the NZ ? More BS from NY, again painting the whole state with a broad brush.
Thank goodness I won't have to wear that orange stuff on my private ground. I don't hunt with a gun, just a bow during the gun season.
More regulations from NY State, and none of them do anything to improve the hunting. Shocking.
If the BO requirement was Strictly for safety, why didn't they include people bowhunting during gun seasons? Hmm.
Anyone know if, in those wmu's designated for Sept. firearms antlerless harvest, they will allow more primitive weapons, such as a bow, as they do in all other firearms seasons?
This is a direct quote from the official regulation:
"During the Early Antlerless season, antlerless deer may be taken with any legal implement in the following wildlife management units (WMUs) as described in section 4.1 of this Title: WMUs 3M, 3R, 8A, 8F, 8G, 8J, 8N, 9A, and 9F. Antlerless deer may be taken with longbows in the following WMUs as described in section 4.1 of this Title: WMUs 1C, 3S, 4J, and 8C."
Thank you erict; I have my answer! I have no problem with this opportunity, especially in a suburban area.
I don’t want to sound like a troll I grew up in upstate ny I now reside in ct . I will say the laws reluctantly are still far better then ct . We can wear full camo. Bow hunting on private land during bow season and not on state at all have to have at least a hat of blaze color . And furring gun season have to wear 400sqinch of blaze . No rifles on state land and have to have a min of 10 ac for rifle on private . But we have a larger harvest amount
