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WV being over 78% forested - for myself I think nutrition plays a bigger roll then what most people think. We have a couple years of great mast and we see some pretty nice bucks - string a couple of years where pickings are slim and it is bound to effect what we see.

I think habitat improvement started a little later and has been slower progressing in WV but its getting better - I only see a brighter future here.

Gun hunters who never bowhunted now do with xbows.

Predators are at a high levels now, ans with the fawn birthing season so long due to off buck to doe ratios, they have a 2-3 month Buffett.

Lost of variable but nutrition does play a good part, but as stated above, does no good if they are killed young.

Age + nutrition + genetics…..in that order.

Age … age… and age….then nutrition…

So the numbers show that over the past 18 years the buck gun harvest has dropped by 60,000 plus so you reply that archery harvest has went up. I emailed the DNR to see what the numbers are for archery over the same time period. So in 2020 hunters harvested around 31,500 deer during archery season and 19,400 of those were bucks. Now 2000 in comparison archery hunters harvested 30,700 deer of which 18,400 were bucks.

So once again the facts are over an 18 to 20 year span the buck harvest has dropped by 60,000 bucks.

So once again I ask you and your click or buddies or whatever you want to call them - what number of bucks do you want to see harvested?

Oh I know your next answer will be but but we kill more buck than doe - I can’t find the article anymore but I posted it on here several years ago - it was stated by one of best in the world (remember that is what our director called our deer biologist) deer biologist that to maintain the current population size the harvest should be 80 antlerless for every 100 bucks killed and from what I have seen the numbers just about every year line up with that.

So again just tell us what the number of buck harvest would be for you all? LOL oh I see some of your groups answers saying oh we should close the state down for a year or just make it archery only - yea let’s see where that would get us!

You know the past several years overall the mast has been pretty darn good - I even said last year before the season it would not surprise me if we see a state record - I believe that happened plus each year it’s seems we have seen more nice bucks killed. More than like here soon we will have a string of a few years where the mast won’t be the best - guess what bet we don’t see as many nice ones killed.

Acorns really don’t supply much as far as antler growth. Antlers are already developed when they become available. With the high carbohydrate and fat content if abundant they help a buck make it thru a winter and come into spring in better physical condition to start growing antlers for the next year. That is if it isn’t shot and killed

I said before for the longest time here in WV many thought throwing a couple bags of corn out was helping things - more people are getting into food plots and timber management. The more it’s done then we will keep seeing improvement. JR - Sleepy Creek WMA has seen some major timbering and habitat improving projects over the past 30 years and I bet it producing some of the nicer bucks now that are coming out of all of our WMA. I would love to see how the bucks are comparing from Sleepy Creek to some of the WMA areas here that have antler restrictions and limits in place but are seeing very little habitat improvement going on! I think a research project on something like this would open some eyes!

Our National forest are just way too mature so it doesn’t matter how many bucks you are allowed to kill - heck take it to zero and you still won’t see much improvement! Age won’t do squat until we see better land and timber management.

Nutrition is needed, but nutrition doesn’t do squat if they are killed at 1.5 and 2.5.

I’m sure more bucks would take the “opportunity “ to get older if they could. Our average buck age that is killed is 2.5. Bucks don’t even mature until they’re at least 4.5. We are getting more 3.5 and 4.5 in the harvest but the majority are still 1.5 and 2.5 yrs old .

Also you do realize that all of our neighboring states the majority of their buck harvest is 1.5 and 2.5 year olds as well? Even your dream states KY and OH. Matter of fact the numbers from OH according to NDA it is quite surprising how many young bucks are harvested there.

My dream states ????? I’ve hunted KY one time. I’ve never hunted in Ohio. I’ve hunted in Africa and Alaska more times than I’ve hunted in Ohio or KY so I’m not sure they are my dream states. I could be in either state in half the time it takes me to get to my farm in WV. I think if they were my dream states I would have sold my farm and bought land there.

And yes I would have thought KY and OH were your dreams states because you have mentioned them quite often before.

What you fail to reply to are the things that you all mention - like BOJ saying to my post about the buck gun harvest decreasing by over 60,000 in 18 years - to where he replies but the buck archery harvest has went up - LOL it went up by like 1000 over 20 years. And I know this may upset some and it shocked me to be truthful - but I thought with the addition of crossbows that the buck archery harvest would be much higher. That was a shocker.

Then you say but the majority of bucks harvested are 1.5 to 2.5 year olds in WV (like it so devastating) I reply - hey look at the NDA yearly report and all the surrounding states which include those glorious states - KY, OH and TN the majority of their buck harvest is 1.5 and 2.5 as well. heck if I remember correctly OH buck harvest is about 40 to 44% 1.5 year olds if I remember correctly.

Of course I know your next response will be that the only data WV has gotten is pretty much from the DNR check points in the cwd areas and not trough out the whole state. So my question would be how extensive are the DNR check station in all surrounding states? Serious would love to know that info - I can’t imagine it’s much more information gathering from their hunters than WV but I could be wrong.

Sort of funny that when it comes to gathering information the DNR check stations are minimal and not very reliable according to some but the minimal data gathered by surveys is spot on! LOL

Those silly professional biologist with US fish and wildlife don’t have a clue when they say nutrition is the driving force behind large antlers.

With that said, to grow large racks, age is the number one factor. Great nutrition will make some very nice 1-2 year old bucks but I believe anyone would agree they will not compare to a 3-5 year old buck that lived on the same nutrition.

Now, to make the point that I do in fact agree with you I will say that regardless of age, the same deer will grow better antlers and be healthier when given the opportunity to feed on good nutrition vs poor quality food.

Yes, I have seen the freak 1-2 year old deer that have been pen raised on the super food but that isn’t reality. So ina. Normal setting, age is number one but nutrition is a very important number 2.

But this is how we know for certain. Eric Michel, PhD., Mississippi State University Deer Lab (who now works in my home state for the Minnesota DNR) found that nutrition is probably the biggest factor in limiting body and antler size. Using data collected throughout Mississippi, performing several studies, and using information collected over many years by the MSU Deer Lab, Michel found that nutrition clearly has a huge impact on both! In addition, it’s not just about the nutrition provided a specific animal during its life, it’s also about the nutrition the parents receive and the start it gets from its mother during gestation.

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Krueger buck eating In areas that don’t produce big bucks, genetics are often blamed; however, there have been several prime examples throughout the years where it has been proven it’s not likely the case. Big-bodied, large antlered bucks were captured and introduced into areas where small bodies and antlers had been a problem. The new genetics were supposed “breed out” the problem. It didn’t happen - the areas continued to produce feeble bodies and antlers. Michel first began to prove this by using harvest data from the Deer Management Assistant Program (DMAP) and data acquired from years of previous MSU Deer Lab studies (Strickland and Demarais 2000, and Strickland et al. 2013). It was found that when comparing bucks that were three years old, body weights averaged 41 pounds heavier in areas with good soil compared to areas of poor soil. In addition, antler scores averaged 25 inches more in areas of good soil.

Including a table from the NDA and their annual report on the percentage of buck harvest by age class. Seems to me even those big buck state - the majority of bucks killed are 1.5 to 2.5 year olds. Looks to me like all are right around 70%. WV pretty much has the same numbers as other states - better than some.

Again the numbers have come out and all those myths about everyone shooting 3 bucks - just simply isn’t true. Heck it’s even something like 2.4 % of all hunters shoot 2 bucks.

DNR numbers show that over the last 18 years the gun buck harvest has dropped by over 60,000. And even with the addition of crossbows the archery buck harvest during the same time period has went up by about 1000. Less bucks are being killed by quite a big margin.

Not once have you heard me say anything about just agriculture crops for deer. I have talked about land and timber management and that has taken place In a lot of the bow hunting only counties by the timber companies and reclaimed mining areas.

You know what would be great I would love for our dnr to put the numbers out of bucks harvested on our WMA’s - compare Sleepy Creek WMA where massive habitat improvement and timbering has taken place and where some mighty fine bucks are being killed right now (and no restrictions) compare it towards some of the WMA that have had restrictions put in place. I think some eyes would be open!

And as yes you pen a deer up and feed him like crazy for 3.5 years odds are he will be larger bodied and antler wise then the average 4.5 year old across the whole state.

Heck one of commissioners even post on here several years ago saying something like it would take 4.5 to 5.5 years for the average WV buck to compare with a 2.5 to 3.5 year old Midwest buck.

As to the thick skull comment - I have just been posting articles from professional biologist and the true numbers that the DNR and NDA have put out. I don’t know why you have such a beef with that?

I'm done

Nutrition is important but age is number one. Surely you can see the simple point we are making? In general, bucks get bigger with age.

Have you looked at any of the research that has been posted?

It’s pretty apparent that a 2.5 or 3.5 year old where nutrition is readily available will be bigger than a 4.5 year old in an area that has poor nutrition or soil.

I have not been saying that bucks within the same area - that age doesn’t make a difference but go back look at the research- heck they even put older and bigger bucks into areas with less nutrition- go look at what the results were.

And to compare the 4 bow hunting areas to the rest of the state with the amount of timbering done there and the habitat improvement from the mining operations has been overlooked by many as to just thinking having a one buck limit has been the cure all to older deer and bigger antlers.

We have older bucks all across this state but we don’t have the same nutrition throughout the state.

I am not saying that better nutrition will have every buck from a yearling up to how ever old to being studs - I am saying that In a majority of WV the nutrition just isn’t there because of neglected land management over the years!

WV is like in the top 3 of states that have the highest percentage of forest - sorry to say but it makes a difference. Especially when you have some large areas that have been allowed to mature and very little is done. For some reason though quite a few fail to see all of this that you can have older deer and because of poor nutrition they just won’t get as big as the bucks in your dreams.

I think we are in a sense making the same argument though. Deer here in area x as a whole will be smaller than deer over in area y when better nutrition is available in area y. Even younger bucks from area y with good nutrition could be have bigger racks than older bucks in area x?

I think we are in a sense making the same argument though. Deer here in area x as a whole will be smaller than deer over in area y when better nutrition is available in area y. Even younger bucks from area y with good nutrition could be have bigger racks than older bucks in area x?

I am telling you - you can learn so much from research. One of the things i am seeing according to the reported numbers - you can have a lower limit - heck even those states with a 1 buck limit - but their hunters are still shooting the same percentage and numbers of young 1.5 to 2.5 year old bucks. Having the lower tag limit isn't stopping this huge hoard of hunters from thinking - oh I only have 1 or 2 tags so I better hold on to use it to kill a stud. That's what we have been told for years will happen and it just simply doesn't happen!

Just like we were told for years everybody and their brothers and their non-resident family members and friends are coming here and killing 3 spikes bucks. The numbers say otherwise. About 700 hunters kill 3 bucks every year. Supposedly our herd is somewhere around 600,000 deer now - wish they would give you an estimate on what percentage are bucks. 700/600000 = .0012 - thats about tenth of 1% of our herd! Basically ZILCH. If you put in the total number of hunters instead of using deer that means that a third of 1% of hunters kill 3 bucks. When you see these numbers - I am sorry it just makes me question things. Apparently some here don't like when you look at the numbers. Heck you can even put the numbers in for the hunters that kill 2 bucks --- it amounts to about the 2 bucks killed by hunter is 1% of the deer herd and a little over 2% of hunters kill 2 bucks.

Sorry I just find when the percentages and numbers are so minuscule it really doesn't make a difference at all! I think that is why our professional deer biologist put the report out that they don't recommend lowering the limit the limit to 2 because it wouldn't make a difference. I think it is the reason why our own Director said it won't make a difference but because of perception - if they lower it - it will seem like they are doing something and satisfy the squeaky wheel (those pushing for lowering the limit) as to think something is being done. I hate that it is going to be perception of something that is false is going to end up setting our bag limits!

Anyone who’s aged deer from the bow only counties will tell you there are a lot of mature deer with little horns. Just like there are young deer with great horns.

I’ve killed 150”+ deer in that area that were 4.5. And, I’ve killed 4.5 year old deer from the same area that wouldn’t score a 110”.

Age only matters as part of the variable for wv deer. Just like nutrition. To maximize potential a deer needs other variables. But, can’t do it without both.

What Jay D is saying, something I used to point out to no avail to the cool crowd, is most states adorned as big buck areas all share a very close resemblance to age structure of bucks harvested. The one thing they don’t share with wv is all those states are known for agriculture.

It’s not that a buck limit of one is automatically increasing bigger bucks per age structure in other areas. It’s the nutrition. That can’t be argued. And, what is getting totally lost here is that nutrition is the leading factor in the bucks antler size getting killed in this state. Because we’ve ruled out age as the deciding factor. Since harvest age structures are almost the same in all leading states.

With a buck harvest decreased by 60%, it’d take a real effort to insist that this state is failing to maximize potential with its current harvest structure concerning a bucks age. Yes, there are less deer. There is also a whole lot less bucks being killed due to self restraint. The common banner passed along here was the bubbas were killing three little bucks because they could. It just ain’t so.

You gotta have both. But, it’s beyond naive to suggest our older deer are anywhere near the average antler size of deer in western KY, Ohio, Illinois, Indian, Iowa, Minnesota, Montana, Wyoming, Dakota’s, Missouri, etc….

To round it out, with our age structure of bucks harvested being very similar to a lot of these places, it ain’t the wind making up the difference.