Whats the limit??
Pennsylvania
Went for a ride later morning up to the Gamelands by my house. I pulled into a parking area. Where a guy was coming back to his truck. We got to chatting about archery equipment and how far its come in the last few years. 500fps, 8x scopes, scopes that are pre-set to 100yds, 2 inch groups at 100. Some folks are happy with 6 inch groups at 25 yd, so I guess these 100yds 2 inch will be able to 6 inch groups at 150 yds.
So what the limit??
One thing I'd like to see is all powered, per-set scopes be removed for archery equipment. I believe Colordao removed scopes from muzzleloaders years back. Do we really need 8x and per-set scopes set out to hundred yards??
So tell me why we need per-set scopes out to 100 yds.
I never saw a compound or stickbow with a scope on it Ed! ;-)
There's videos on you tube of guys shooting animals at 100 plus yards. Another of a guy bench shooting 200yds.
So you don't think guys are going to take 100yds shots with a scope that factory zero to 100 yds. Why are folks buying these that are capable of shooting 100yds?
You bet they are taking those shots, Ed. What the crossbow introduction into archery season has done in Pa., should be considered a crime. When you’re shooting 500 fps, scoped, shoulder mounted weapon, you can call it what you want, but you should never call it archery. There needs to be a serious realignment of what is deemed archery.
I know a guy from church that has had multiple shoulder surgeries and just bought one of these new crossbows. Think he said his was shooting 485 fps and he was shooting 1" groups at 87y........................................he readily admits it is not like shooting a vertical bow, but it keeps him in the game.
Wish they would have kept it for disabled only................................it wasn;t hard to get a doctor's note! OR, an age limit to keep it for kids and Seniors.
So now, finally, we've crossed the line with so called archery equipment?
Once that door opened it will never be closed again.
We warned you over twenty years ago about X-guns.
20 years ago I didn't support it. This is the only thing the UBP did wrong. Ny bowhunters have limited it. Colorado bowhunters have also. Co it's limited to handicapped only, Ny they have their own season. Maybe if the deer herd crashes like the turkey have, we can pull the get rid the per-set 8x scopes in archery season card. Just like another group pulled to get rid of rifles in fall turkey season card. That group was pushing to get rid of rifles, even when turkey populations was at it highest.
Montana just rejected the crossbow initiative to be able to use them in the regular archery season. They may use them in rifle season, only.
I'm a member of 3 state bowhunting organization. They are seeing what happen in states that allowing it to go forward.
My thing is why allow powered pre-set scopes.. All bows can be set with open sights. Can we use scopes in late flintlock??
What got me fired up, is see guys bench shoot 200yds.
I remember calling a couple of board members about this back in the day. The conversations didnt go the way I thought they would of. At that time i bet over 90% of our members were opposed. I was told even if we opposed it, it would still go though.
Even though the industry is way bigger now than then, bowhunting groups today that are fighting it,, are winning...
Ed what did UBP do wrong?! I remember UBP battling to the bitter end! In fact, I attended at least 2 PGC Meetings to lend support
Red...I hope you typed that slow.
Rut is right Ed. A Banzai attack would have been futile. LOL.
Sorry i didnt get back sooner. Right as i was getting out of my stand last night, julie texted me her moms brother passsed. I just got to my stand now. 945.
First this is not an attack on the UBP, as if it wasn't for them we'd probably still have a 4 week season and no bear season. As many know I'm a strong supporter of them and with out them i wouldn't be typing this in a tree right now.
I'll talked about my conversation I had with 2 board members back in the day.. Remember it was probably 20 plus years ago. I don't know if it was the first go around with the issue or the second. But I was told basically the samething from both of them. That opposing it would look poorly for the UBP.. politics plays way too much of a role in hunting, thats what happened then. Its time we stand up to them and push back.
Want to see politicians get involved, lobby for no powered per-set scopes in archery season. Like with later muzzleloader season. To us its about the sport to a politician its about the $$$$
So can anyone tell me why we cant have only open sights in archery season??? Now don't say that theres to many already out there, there was 50 years of fall turkey rifles out there. Now would be a good time to pull that card. They cant say theres to many already out there.
I agree with you, Ed. I love to hunt groundhogs in the summer. There is a PGC gun range about 10 miles from my home, and I spend quite-a-bit of time there shooting, especially when working on a new load. I’ve witnessed crossbows being shot off sand bags, on top of shooting sticks or on a monopod. And the accuracy and distance shot is unreal. I have no problem with a youth, a senior or disabled hunter using them, but this ALL INCLUSIVE is pure BS.
Teeton. I want to know who those 2 BOD’s were that fed you that.
I keep hearing that the distinction between xbows and compounds. Remember the last time you nestled the butt stock of your compound into your shoulder, fingers wrapped around the pistol grip of the AR style stock, the forearm fully supported on a stable rest, peer thru the 4X power scope with the illuminated reticle and the range (73.5 yds) already set from the bluetooth rangefinder, flip the safety off, and squeeze the trigger. Ya, me neither.
Go to the Hunting Pennsylvania Facebook page. You would be hard pressed to find archery kills with compounds or sticks. Our numbers went from roughly 275,000 hunters in 2009 to 375,000 current year. I would venture a guess that the vast majority were attracted to archery, not because of the challenge, but the ease of becoming a bowhunter. At sixty years old, I still shoot 10 months out of the year, my bow is not a "set and forget" piece of equipment.
Back in the late 70's, early 80's, I wanted to race superbikes. I found out I didn't have the dedication or determination to up my game and be competitive. I didn't ask or demand the governing authorities make it easier. Never wish it was easier, wish you were better.
No issues with xbows for PD or seniors. Youth? Still a bit undecided.
"Never wish it was easier, wish you were better".
Perfect! Bowbender you get it. Unfortunately, "easier" means dollars in someone's pocket.
"There is no great fun, satisfaction, or joy derived from doing something that's easy" Coach John Wooden.
I have this quote hanging on the wall of my bowroom.
Wait until they make baiting legal in PA
Well i just went to breakfast and opened up Bowite. Either I forgot to hit the submit button or my last post was deleted. Being that it was only fact based and not a cheap shots at anyone or thing. I'm guessing I forgot to hit the submit button.
So I'm going to kinda submit a version of it.
How far will powered archery scopes go in the next five years.. 12x and per-set to 125-150yds. Why is no scents allowed for bear and no food based lures for deer. To easy?? Not sporting?? Right now i can sit in a blind and shoot the length of a football field, in all 4 directions. Being per-set, you only of had to have zeroed to what 20/30 yds. Hell my local archery shop in selling these scopes all ready sighted in. Buy, leave go hunt.. i wonder how many deer have been taken on the very first time they shot that scope.
I agree. I think they should of kept the crossbow law to the seniors, youth, and if you got a disability ... archery is recurve or compounds.. these new compounds are pretty darn accurate mostly if you practice with your equipment.
Well, this is a lively and polite debate. I remember 15 yeas ago a similar discussion between compounds and trad bows where in defense of compounds I said that for some of the younger guys compound bows are their traditional bows because that is what the grew up with. Kind of like always having the internet, cell phones and men in outer space and on the moon since you were born. LOL.
Yeah, I helped a twenty something get set up to shoot a recurve a few months ago. He's been shooting and bowhunting for years but had never released an arrow with his fingers. Compounds and releases are traditional for him.
Hey Ed- I know you, so I know it was not an attack on UBP.
Not sure what UBP could have done differently that would have changed the outcome. Once the manufacturers got involved the writing was on the wall. It was all about $$$$!!!!
Correct, Rut. And when the NRA threw in their support it was game over.
The Facebook Group "Bow hunting PA" has produced numerous posts of wounded deer, mostly from guys shooting xbows. Lots of talk of long distance shooting at deer. There's some sickening stuff on that site.
How far is to far? We've already passed that point years ago. I recently saw on another board of a guy who has a range finding scope on his xbow. Push a button it gives you the range and puts a dot on the crosshairs on where to hold for the kill shot/ten ring.
Yeah. I came home from hunting last nite and watched a hunting program. Albeit, the guy was hunting in Canada, he was using a crossbow with two bolts Kinda like a double barrel. The crossbow initiative needs to be rescinded. If the crossbow is the users preferred weapon of choice, it can be used in rifle season, along with all the other scoped, shoulder mounted weapons. Where it should have been placed in the first place.
I was not go8ng to post anymore on this thread, unless someone else posted.
Here a adjustable tripod for a piece of archery equipment. Do you think you'd need this for shots of 30 or 40 yds. I'm against this and pre-set powered scopes on archery equipment. We need to get rid of high power, per-set scopes in archery season.
I thought the reason for the long archery season was because archers didn't take a lot of deer. May have to shorten the season at some point? The woods have never been more crowded where I hunt. Rarely see an upright bow. I know quite a few gun hunters who now "bow hunt". I know I'm in the minority here, but, since they've taken the bow season from me I'm ok with them going with arm of choice season and make it much shorter. I will do my best with my bow. Would be curious to see how many crossbow archers there are then? A guy with a crossbow sitting up against a tree is much more lethal than I am 25' off the ground. Lastly, I do not use cell cams as I know of many folks with an abundance of them and have been successful because of them. Archer/Hunting is no longer a primitive sport. I limit the tech I use because it violates my ideals of fair chase. But - people can decide what works best for them. Thanks
47 percent of the buck kill in PA last year was archery. 67 percent of those were killed with a xbow according to PGC.
Are there more bucks in total of all seasons being killed now then before xbows came along?
Hey guys, Long time no hear. I see some of the same BS is still floating around here. Tons of wounded deer. Shooting too far. Season needs shortened. Resource is being impacted. Lets not forget that shooting too far and wounding deer is not a new issue. I seem to remember this occurring among all of those hunting archery seasons, but it seems a few here only see those that occur with crossbows, lol. There is a reason why bow shops call the two weeks leading up to bow season "crazy season" as many of the "bow hunters" dust off their compounds and start shooting right before the season. Rest assured, wounding is occurring among your peers as well. We have lost 250,000-300,000 deer hunters in this state over the past 30 years and some of you are worried about guys hunting deer in archery season with a bow that looks different than yours. Can't we just be happy that guys are still hunting at a time when we are bleeding hunters across this country? And before someone says it, the gain in archery harvest and archery hunter numbers is insignificant compared to the loss of rifle deer hunters. It is factually incorrect for anybody to claim that everybody is killing bucks in archery that is why nobody rifle hunts any longer. The overall antlered harvest is shifting to earlier as we continue to lose rifle hunters. At this point in time about 45% of all of our deer hunters also archery hunt, so nobody should be surprised that the increased in percent bucks killed by bow has increased as we lose rifle hunters. That would have happened even without crossbows.
Anyways, congrats to all that have scored this year and best of luck to you all if you are still in the stands.
Gene, good to hear from you. I hope you're doing well.
I'm calling the FB Page the way I read it. I'm not saying bowhunters aren't wounding any on that site, but the vast majority of it is from crossbow hunters. Bowhunters aren't bragging on that site for the distances they practice, crossbow hunters are. Bowhunters aren't justifying their long distance shots that result in bad hits, crossbow hunters are. It doesn't seem to be bowhunters posting "I just shot a buck & need a tracking dog," before they even got out of their stand. It wasn't a bowhunter that bragged about the buck he killed at 50 yards, hitting it in the gut, it was a crossbow hunter. When I suggested he may not want to take shots that far if he misses his mark by that much, he said "He can't help it if the deer took a step the moment he squeezed the trigger." He & his buddy then proceeded to try to "Crossbow 'splain" to me they routinely practice at much further distances than that shot...totally failing to understand the meaning of my comment "A lot can happen when an arrow has to travel that far to the target." That FB Page exposes, highlights, and confirms everything bowhunters, especially the UBP, said would happen.
Just because there's no turning back, it doesn't mean I have to like the mess that's been created. Nor do I have to condone those who are making, & enabling, the mess. It doesn't mean I have to keep my mouth shut.
To answer the question though about where is the limit. Even as someone that supports crossbows in archery seasons, there may need to be limits at some point. Are we there yet? IMO, no. Will we ever get there? Not sure. We are finding out that as performance increases in crossbows, so do equipment failures and shootability. Much like the vertical world, there is only so much performance one can get in a package that remains shootable. In crossbows, in the absence of springs, pulleys, or compressed air, increasing the speed means increasing power strokes and/or draw weights and that has been problematic lately from a reliability and shootability standpoint. I get to shoot and hunt with many different crossbows but I still prefer one shooting less than 400fps for many reasons.
Hey Bob. Great to hear from you as well. You can find whatever information you want to. There is plenty out there. We must visit vastly different sites cause I don't see a huge difference between wounding threads and lost deer from one hunter group to the next. I will agree that some crossbow hunters take shot that are too far. Unfortunately, the bogus advertising by a certain manufacturer has not helped that cause. I remain steadfast in what I feel is my role to educate new crossbow hunters on the limits of their equipment and vast differences between a crossbow and a gun when it comes to shot selection. Nobody is asking you to keep your mouth shut. Just quit with the nonsense and ignorance and recognize that there are plenty of peers of yours that are just as guilty of the same behaviors that you seem to loathe. Division is what some seem to crave.
The reality is a certain percentage of all of those hunting in archery season have no business taking shots at anything.
Dpms, Why do you get to shoot and hunt with so many different crossbows?? It's my thread and I never said anything about xbows I said high powered scopes on all archery equipment that are per-set and many out to 100yds.
So if guys are shooting these high powered scopes off a bench to 200yds. Do you think guys are not going to shoot off tripods with these scopes out to 150 + yds at deer???
I have shot crossbows at 100-150 yards several times. My furthest shot at a deer has been 42 yards I believe. Many avid vertical bowhunters profess how important it is to practice at long range as it improves your short range accuracy. Just cause people shoot at long range, does not necessarily mean that they are shooting at game that far. Some do for sure. I won't deny it and it happens with compounds and crossbows.
Dpms, Why do you get to shoot so many different crossbows??
I now have the privilege of being able to do field testing for some manufacturers. Not just bows, but broadheads, scopes, arrows, other accessories, etc........... I am not paid for those services and I began using crossbows before I began those relationships. And as some of you may remember, I was heavily involved in the crossbow inclusion movement here in Pa prior to any kind of relationships with the "industry". I really don't care who hunts with what. I am happy to see people hunting as much as possible with whatever weapon makes them happy. With that said, I firmly believe the best fit within archery, muzzleloading, and firearms seasons for a crossbow is archery season.
“I firmly believe the best fit within archery, muzzleloading, and firearms seasons for a crossbow is archery season.” So do I….for 3 days.
The fuzzy pic is of a scorable buck my bro got on cell vid. Hes pushing 20” wide. I had him at 30 yards broadside for 20 seconds. Not one movement, on a Tram road, not even looking in my direction. My ultratec fits in the blind, my longbow does not. At my side was my brothers crossbow, cocked and loaded scope adjusted and it was ready for me, it was a walk in the park!
……. And he remains walking. People have worked too hard, too long, to let a weapon, one a 5 yr old girl, cant carry, nor cock and load, and not even hold it up, but she can shoot a deer. I let that buck walk because Ill be damned if I destroy his regal status by using a weapon a young child can use. There should be great respect for any animal I/we hunt, it means the world to some of us.
"With that said, I firmly believe the best fit within archery, muzzleloading, and firearms seasons for a crossbow is archery season."
But of course you do.
Remember the last time you nestled the butt stock of your compound, recurve, or longbow, into your shoulder, fingers wrapped around the pistol grip of the AR style stock, the forearm FULLY SUPPORTED on a solid mount, peer thru the 4X power scope with the illuminated reticle and the range (73.5 yds) already set from the bluetooth rangefinder, flip the safety off, and squeeze the trigger. Ya, me neither.
Seems like a better fit would be during the week long muzzleloader season. You know, those scoped "single shot" rifles masquerading as a primitive weapon. I only wish Ravin's "100 yard rifle" ad was around in 2009. Maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation.
You can call it a bow, you can call it archery, you can hide behind the "definition", but deep down, you know it ain't a bow meant for archery seasons. And I'm guessing the many successful bowhunters on the Bowhunt PA FaceBook page know it too. Or they would pose with their bow in the grip-n-grin pics.
Hate to be this way, but scurry on back to HuntingPA.com where "thou shall not speak ill of thy xbow" reigns supreme. My right shoulder is shot. I'm down to 60# draw weight. I'll keep reducing it to keep shooting a bow. And when the time finally comes that I can no longer draw a bow, maybe I'll pick up a xbow. But only because I left it all on the range, and on the mountain. And age and physical limitations have finally won over drive and determination.
Like I said, Never wish it was easier. Wish you were better.
Whatever makes you happy Dale. I too have great respect for any animal I take with a crossbow, or any weapon for that matter. Unfortunately, hate has consumed you and you have lost what hunting is truly about. A humane kill. A enjoyable time. A fine quantity of choice protein. A part of duty and conservation. The one thing you are correct about is the regal status of that buck. What you are wrong about is it being destroyed by someones weapon of choice.
Bowbender said; "And when the time finally comes that I can no longer draw a bow, maybe I'll pick up a xbow. "
If you do, I wish you the best of luck.
Not saying get rid of xbow, just the scopes. Pin sites only. Like no scopes on muzzleloader in late season. Pin site for all archery equipment. Is that not fair.??
Teeton. I personally don't think it would make much of a difference. Most data that I am aware of shows average shot distances between compounds and crossbows have gotten a bit longer over time but both are relatively close to each other. Crossbows being a bit further on average but still less than 40 yards. At the ranges most people shoot at game, pins would not be a huge setback. At 40 and under, which is what I shoot at game with my crossbows, I don't feel I would be limited very much without magnification. There are some pretty well accomplished crossbow hunters that use zero magnification sights like red dots and reflex type sight.
I guess then you won't be opposed to it?
Hate has filled me? LOL why the dang weapon ain’t worth a fart in a tornado :)
Teeton, I would oppose it. I don't think it would have a significant impact on crossbow success and is a needless restriction. Some impact? Yes. Basically, It would be a "feel good" regulation that doesn't accomplish anything other than appeasement of those that don't like others being able to kill their deer. There is no resource concern so why bother? A scope on a crossbow has become what pin sights are on a compound. They are an integral part of what a crossbow is, just as pin type sight are on a compound. Those hunting archery seasons have three options, traditional, compound crossbow. Each has its challenges and advantages. We are all free to use what we want. If Dale chooses to stew in anger cause a 5 year old is in a blind with her father with a crossbow three ridges over, let him stew in anger. There has been no impact to the resource and archery seasons have been expanded, even with crossbows.
We used to have 330,000 archery hunters in the early 90's. Those number dropped steadily to 270,000 prior to crossbows. This state and this country was bleeding hunters, including archery hunters. Now, in this state and others, crossbow expansion has brought those numbers back up which is a great thing for everybody that archery hunts, regardless of which bow they choose. Archery and predator hunting are the only aspects of our sport that are holding their own. Strength in numbers as we face the certain challenges that will happen to our sport in the future.
Dpms. I hunt with my bro AND my son which are both using crossbows. I, in fact, have assembled at least 3 crossbows, which btw, the 5 yr old girl, COULD have done. Stew in anger? LOL
Dale. I never said anything about whether you had experience with crossbows or not. I am happy to hear that some around you are utilizing them. When you make comments about a certain weapon shouldn't be allowed cause a 5 year old can shoot it, it makes you look inconsequential. You are so consumed with hate that your thought process is making light of a 5 year old sitting in a blind with her dad with a crossbow three ridges over enjoying our sport like they have no business being there. Quite pathetic actually. The discussion should be about participation and the resource. Participation has gone up and the seasons have been expanded. Doesn't look to good for your archaic and emotional position you seem to want cling too.
I’m not angry, why do you insist Im full of hatred? LOL what do you suggest I do? I’m not on the turn archery into a “Participation Trophy” sport bandwagon. THAT is pathetic.
Dale said: " I’m not angry, why do you insist Im full of hatred? People have worked too hard, too long, to let a weapon, one a 5 yr old girl, cant carry, nor cock and load, and not even hold it up, but she can shoot a deer. I let that buck walk because Ill be damned if I destroy his regal status by using a weapon a young child can use." There you go. Comments from an angry man. Full of bravado but lacking maturity. Again the resource has been unaffected, participation has regained some steam, and archery seasons have been expanded. Doesn't look good for those that want to go backwards and continue to attack other hunters.
Ive been very privileged and eager, to send a group of kids and adults to our DHP program where they used crossbows, successfully. Yet to you…Im a hater. Im currently suffering from severe target panic, didnt hunt the first 4 weeks, and may not hunt until firearms season, if at all. Ive been acting spotter for my family. However, it appears an arrow has pierced the seat of your britches, it may be a sign Im finally on target:)
Dale said:"Ive been very privileged and eager, to send a group of kids and adults to our DHP program where they used crossbows, successfully. Yet to you…Im a hater. " Glad to hear. And yes, you are a hater cause when these same kids get old enough, it will be you saying that the "regal status" of animals they harvest was destroyed by the weapon they chose to use. You see, words matter. Maturity matters. Mask sure you tell these same kids when they learn how to use crossbows that you disapprove of them using crossbows later in life as it destroys how "regal" the deer are and they are too old to use them. Yep immaturity at its finest.
In 2008-09 the archery buck kill was 31,450. In 2020-21 The archery buck kill was estimated to be 80,130. So simple a 5 or 6 year old can take the life of a "regal" animal. Never mind the fact they still believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny. Fact is, they have ZERO idea what they have done. Other then to be posed in a pic on social media for parents looking to one up. THAT'S my opposition to youth using xbows. At least those that young.
I remember in 2010, my son (10 at the time) was getting his youth mentored license at Kinseys. Guy standing there asked if he was going bowhunting. He said he wanted to. Guy looked at him and said "You should get your dad to buy you a xbow." My son replied "Nah, I'd rather use a real bow." Guy responded "Well what if you can't draw a "real" bow?" My sons response, "I can still sit on stand with my Dad." And he worked all summer to get his draw weight up to 38#'s. He didn't wish or want it to be easier. He made himself better. He knew archery was supposed to be a challenge, a close range proposition.
In ten years we've increased our archery ranks by ~100K, increased our buck harvest by 2.5X, not because the rifle hunters were attracted to the challenge, but the ease at becoming a bowhunter. And when calls for the season to be shortened attract enough attention (they won't shorten on the front end), rest assured they'll revert back to the trusty boom stick. Why? Because they don't have 35, 40, 50 years of skin in the game.
Here's an idea. Let's go to a 3 week any weapon season. That way you can choose the weapon you are truly comfortable with. Hint. It ain't a bow.
Dale, you nailed it with the participation trophy comment.
Why does anyone/everyone think that so many picked up archery in the last years and the same didn't want anything to do with it back them????
One thing I can say is some states are fighting and winning and some are starting to push back against this. I'm hoping a coalition gets stronger. The push is not going to be against getting rid on xbows, but high power, per-set scopes.. This year a whole weapon was eliminated from a season here in Pa. Other states have put restrictions on passed used equipment.
Teeton, because the crossbow is easier to become proficient with. Pretty common knowledge right? I seem to remember when compounds came onto the scene and became popular. The archery ranks grew quite quickly. Why do you think that was?
The number of 5-6 year olds that have taken antlered deer with a crossbow is statistically insignificant. Bowbender, they have been extending the archery seasons, even with crossbows. When rifle participation keeps dropping like a stone, it will be the archery hunters that need to pick up the slack unless the PGC chooses to also extend firearms seasons.
Why do you think them said folks didn't pick up compounds?
Remember dpms, I'm not talking about getting rid of xbows. Just per-set high power scopes for "all" archery equipment.
Teeton. I already answered that. Crossbows are easier to become proficient with. People enjoy hunting in different ways and for different reasons. Why did tens of thousands embrace compound bows when they became available?
Gene, those bowhunters didn’t know then, what they know today.
dpms, yes you did..
So now I'll chat about sights I just don't believe we need high power per-set sights or sights that you push a bottom and then the pin is right where it should be for that range. Anyone think that if guys actually had to sight in the bows for all ranges, like 20,30,40 or 50yds they just would not pick up the sport?? Archery has become a how easy can you make it for me sport.
Teeton, what harm has come from magnified optics? The resource has not been a concern in any state, including here, and the archery seasons have been expanded. The horse left the barn when the archery community embraced compounds, release aids, laser rangefinders, high let off, etc............. All of that was embraced to make it easier. Nothing wrong with easier and we are all free to make it as hard or easy as one wants.
Why can't I use a rifle in spring turkey,, why can't I use a scope in late muzzleload season, even though other can use them in the same season?? Scopes has advanced archery at a faster rate then muzzleloaders. Why Limits!! You can say your range is 40 yds, another can say 20. But the folks selling scopes are say, buy ours and you can shoot 100yds.
"...embraced compounds, release aids, laser rangefinders, high let off, etc"
None of which come close to a 4x, 6x, scoped crossbow securely clamped to a tripod.
Teeton, lobby the PGC for what you want. State your case like I did with crossbows many years ago. Since I have answered every question you have asked me, are you gonna answer any of the questions I asked you?
Shoot away on the questions. . As I am not presently on an board of any conservation organization. I do have about 9 or 10 years with 2 different organizations, working, lobbing for many different issues over the years and with that I've learned how the system works.. Am presently belong to an organization that has kept xbows out of archery.. I learn every week, more and more on key issues that are being faced. Biggest thing thats got folks chatting is xbow companies pushing 100yds shots. Theres pronghorn in Wyoming that have been shot at over 150yds and one at over 170 yds. These I'm sure will helped with limits.
Teeton, I asked you two questions that you never answered. First. Why did tens of thousands of people only begin archery hunting when compound bows became available? Second. What measurable harm has come from the use of magnified optics on crossbows? For the record, I am not a fan of some of the marketing being done by some crossbow manufacturers and they are well aware of it. Taking a 700 yard shot with a rifle should be left to those with tons of practice and ideal circumstances which is far and few between. The same applies to taking shots with any archery gear at extended ranges. I don't advocate for long distance shooting at game with crossbows or any archery gear for that matter.
Compounds,,, because it was easier to hold back at let off. But they had to shoot and sight in each pin and they draw at time of shooting at game. Todays scopes per set out to 100yds. Hell,, some archery shops are selling all ready sighted in.. Buy go shot a deer an hour later setups. Hand drawn bow have progressed little to none in the last 5 years. It's way harder to shoot a bow a 50 yds with pins, than a bow with a scope, yet alone at 100yds. The area covered between 50 yds and 100yds for hunting is vast. Year, 2021 scope per set to 100 yds and guys are already showing scopes bows that can be shot pass 150. So where will it be in the year 2026,, perset scopes to 150yds? As further shot distances become the norm, like they are.. So will harvest success.. I can't tell you the number of deer I could of took passed 50yds yet alone passed 100 in archery season. If I had a scoped set up. So year 2030 harvest rate have sky rocketed do to technology and buck numbers by rut have significantly dropped.. So what the answer,, going to a "draw system" on buck??? Look at the numbers, look at technology.. It heading that way. Was it a factor in why Colorado didn't pass xbows ? Is the higher success rate do to scopes factor in to tag allocations out west, yes.. Limits!!! I'm sure if you ask a company making money off or guys getting free equipment is not going to agree.
Its all about gun control. They want to take away our modern firearms.
"Was it a factor in why Colorado didn't pass xbows ? "
My understanding it was a combination. As much as CDW is maligned, especially for their elk management, they understood that a shoulder mounted, stock fully supported, 4X, 6X optics ready, 500fps, "100 yard rifle", was NOT the same as a hand drawn, hand held bow. IOW, it wasn't in the spirit of what archery is or supposed to be. Same with Montana.
I think there should be a concerted push for scoped in-lines to be used statewide in the late flintlock season. I mean after all, it IS a muzzleloader.
Teeton, so from you answers I gather than people entered the sport of archery when compounds became available cause they were easier. As I said, nothing wrong with easier. You guys opened the door to easier a long time ago. Also, as for the second question, you failed to provide any measurable harm that has come from magnified optics. You are speculating future harm, but after decades of crossbow use across this country in many states, these same fears have never came to fruition. Yes harvest has increased in some states but that has never negatively impacted the resource or seasons. Here in Pa, after our local bowhunters org vehemently opposed crossbows stating that the season would have to be shortened, our seasons have been lengthened considerably. That argument was bogus and was proved bogus. Hunter numbers are dropping like a stone. What hunters choose to hunt with is the least of our concerns. If seasons were ever to be shortened, it would most likely occur due to social influences and not biological.
Bowbender said; "I think there should be a concerted push for scoped in-lines to be used statewide in the late flintlock season. I mean after all, it IS a muzzleloader." Here in Pa we have a "muzzeloader" season during which all muzzleloaders are legal. We also have a "flintlock" muzzleloader season during which only flintlock muzzleloaders are legal. You can't add scoped inlines to a flintlock season. What they can do is eliminate the late flintlock season and make it the late muzzleloader season. If that is what you want, lobby for it.
"As I said, nothing wrong with easier."
Then like I said, go to a 3 week any weapon season.
Thank you for the brief (if not much unneeded) synopsis of our muzzleloader seasons. Am well aware of what seasons we have. Been carrying a flintlock since '79. That whoosh sound you heard....that was the point sailing over your head.
Never wish it was easier. Never. Wish you were better. And if you won't, then lobby to make it easier. Some get it, some don't.
Rest assured, the salvation of hunting isn't in crossbows, longer seasons, Sunday hunting, etc... We have those.... and numbers drop. It's because hunting isn't THE thing to do, it's just another activity to fit in amongst our "busy" lives. Tech has made that easier. And along the way, the heritage of hunting, what attracted those of us in our late 40's, 50's and older has been lost or forgotten. Looking forward to the "angry old guy" comment....
The area we hunt in South Carolina (Southern 1/3 of the state) has an any weapon deer season Aug 15 - Jan 1. Lots of deer, lots of land, few hunters - it works.
Hunt with your bow, rifle, crossbow or muzzleloader any day any time. Have at it. Zero problems.
We have too many hunters for that to ever happen here. But, if hunter numbers keep dropping...............one can only dream.
Sounds like Dale and Gene should settle this with crossbow pistols at 20 paces! (Just no scopes allowed! ;-)
Does Dale shoot instinctive? If so I am in trouble.
He does, but it sounds like he's dealing with a bad case of target panic right now, so things could be pretty even! : )
Target panic can be tough to deal with. I would often develop bad cases of it in my vertical days. I was shooting my compound a few weeks ago and some hints of it made an appearance. That was one of the reasons I eventually made the move to a crossbow for huntitng.
My Dymalux Teeton left and Jared’s Hemp risered Teeton on the right.
My Dymalux Teeton left and Jared’s Hemp risered Teeton on the right.
Limbtips Belly
Limbtips Belly
Double carbon and double bamboo lams
Double carbon and double bamboo lams
My new Art Vincent Cedar Ridge Hunter back quiver, kangaroo leather. Neither items are going to be “pretty”until they get initiated by woodland use.
My new Art Vincent Cedar Ridge Hunter back quiver, kangaroo leather. Neither items are going to be “pretty”until they get initiated by woodland use.
Well its guaranteed I will not go the easy way out. Its just another mountain i have to climb. There 4 deer rifles at my house.: A Sporterized Scoped 8mm Mauser my dad brought from home from WW II. 30-30 Marlin lever from my wife’s Grandfather, a .308 Savage Axis that my son won. and a very Special Henry Golden Boy .357 mag/.38 spec that MJ won and gave it to me for my birthday. Should I use a gun, Im carrying the Henry. Notice I did not buy any of them, yet they are special to me. Ive never bought a deer rifle. In the last 25 years I may have carried a deer rifle 4 maybe 5 days total.
What I WILL carry is my PAW Joe Cole Teeton Blair.
That's great Dale. I am hosting an old work buddy who still does the cop thing (36 years so far) and his 2 sons. Last time he was here was over 30 years ago and his sons weren't even a gleam in his eye yet. They have been hearing all his stories about hunting at the farm back in the day and bringing home a farm buck. Now they finally get to see the old homestead.
"Target panic can be tough to deal with. I would often develop bad cases of it in my vertical days. I was shooting my compound a few weeks ago and some hints of it made an appearance. That was one of the reasons I eventually made the move to a crossbow for huntitng."
Ya, it can be tough to deal with. It's an ugly monster waiting to rear it's head. I'll typically shoot with my eyes closed from a very close distance. Focus on the mechanics and follow thru. Or, draw with my finger off the release and just let the pin settle on the spot. Let down, wash rinse repeat. Let the urge pass to release the arrow. I simply refuse to beleive that I do not have total control over the shot.
I didn't wish it was easier. I made myself better.
Dale, those bows are incredibly beautiful!!
Some takeaways from the National Deer Association article by Kip Adams on crossbows that looked at 37 states. No impact to season lengths. No change to overall hunter numbers. No impact to total deer harvest. No measurable biological impact from an increase in earlier harvest. No difference in wounding rates in states that measured it. Minimal difference in average shot distances while hunting in states that measured it. Slight increase in success rates. Slight increases in participation in archery seasons. Slight increases in archery harvest. In the Northeast, the majority of the harvest is via crossbow. In the Southeast, the majority of the harvest is vertical. In the Midwest, it is roughly split but vertical harvest still exceeds crossbow harvest.
"A slight increase in harvest numbers. ". ........
"Slight increases in participation in archery seasons. Slight increases in archery harvest. In the Northeast, the majority of the harvest is via crossbow."
A 36% increase in bowhunters. A 250% increase in buck harvest during archery season with 70% of the harvest now from xbows.
Slight. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Well, if you read what I posted, it included information from 37 states and was a overall conclusion. Of course, state by state would be different. With that said in Pa, our total buck kill has remained relatively flat and there has been zero affect to the resource. Plus our archery seasons have been lengthened, as some, including myself predicted would occur as we continue to lose rifle only hunters.
Bowbender, why do you think that the harvest rates gone up so much? Do you think that scoped equipment had anything to do with it? I know other states are looking into the much higher harvest rates and I'm sure will be adjust tags accordingly. That only means less opportunity for archers. I know the harvest rates of elk in Wyoming has gone way up. The point is where will, at the present rate of increases in Pa, where will Pa be in 5 or 10 years. Should we wait till it happens or should it be looked sooner??
Harvest will increase when more people are hunting. Crossbow inclusion has more people hunting in archery seasons. The goal of crossbow inclusion is to get more people hunting. That should not surprise anybody that the harvest would go up? Crossbows have higher success rates than compounds, but the real disparity is between traditional equipment and the rest. Our total buck kill has not increased and there have been no biological concerns raised by deer biologists due to crossbow inclusion in any states.
"Bowbender, why do you think that the harvest rates gone up so much? Do you think that scoped equipment had anything to do with it?"
70% of our harvest comes from xbows. That 100K+ influx of hunters wasn't attracted to archery because of the challenge. They were attracted because they could use a weapon they were already familiar with. A scoped, fully braced or supported, shoulder mounted, ~4x optic ready, ~100 yard weapon. One that requires minimal practice once "dialed in". Just like their rifle.
Never wish it was easier. Wish you were better.
Teeton, since you may not be familiar with our numbers here, we lost over 60,000 archery hunters in the 25 years prior to crossbow inclusion. Crossbows were meant to help bring those numbers back up and provide additional opportunity, which is what happened. Not sure why people are happy about declining hunter numbers?
Here in Pennsylvania every successful archer will be one less gun buck hunter. That has to be in the equation also. And I do not believe a crossbow is going to be the salvation for hunter loss. Today's society no longer embraces hunting.
"Today's society no longer embraces hunting." Correct. Hunter numbers will continue to drop. With that said, for those that still hunt, opportunities will keep increasing.
Hawkeye you correct. Hunter numbers even after xbow the number still went down. Last year was the first year in years it went up and I know that was do to C19. I know a lot that took up archery that was already a gun hunter. I know of none that took up hunting to become an archer.
Total numbers did go down. I was referring to the significant drop in archery hunter numbers which have rebounded since crossbows became legal. Keeping participation strong in archery is a good thing as archery and trapping are often the target of the antis.
A few things after reading this thread. First, you would get a time out or ban on HPA for uttering anything against a x-gun or smearing it's use. Two, Pandora left the box once the PGC got it's cash infusion from the MFG and the second the NRA stuck their collective greedy noses in our states game laws it was over. The battle for PA was fought for many years and we the archers of Pa lost this battle. You guys along with a lot of guys I know should sue for carpal tunnel from all the letters written against the inclusion in an archery season. For years we looked to states like OH and knew what it would bring, but our voices were silenced by the MFGS and PGC alike. The funny thing was, the outcry for inclusion did not come from the hunters, it came from the vendors and business and a fat juicy $ infusion for it. So man I am frankly tired of it, and sick of the limits these things are pushing. Now they have splits for 2 bolts to be fired, scopes for more than a hundred yards, and no kinetic energy to back it up. I know Gene will argue all the points and he is a real keyboard warrior on both sites when this is even sneezed on. But have at it, I still say those that did not fight against this when the inclusion happened should actually stay out of it. And again, they should have stayed in the firearm season where it belonged. Ok, Rant over.
70% of our harvest comes from xbows. That 100K+ influx of hunters wasn't attracted to archery because of the challenge. They were attracted because they could use a weapon they were already familiar with. A scoped, fully braced or supported, shoulder mounted, ~4x optic ready, ~100 yard weapon. One that requires minimal practice once "dialed in". Just like their rifle.
Never wish it was easier. Wish you were better.
This!!!!!! What he said
The pgc wants "participation " for the money. That means more crowded conditions. I gave up gun hunting 25 years ago to be able to have more space, less crowds and a better experience. Many gun hunters now bow hunt, so, it's back to the way it was when I gun hunted back then. Since I can't change the situation they can go to an any choice arm season and it would be the same to me.
Bowhunting5C, I lobbied for crossbow inclusion as a hunter.
Gene, congratulations. Good for you. It doesn't mean it was given the proper season. And, wouldn't you agree that when this inclusion was approved to be added to our archery season that no one realized shots up to and over a hundred yards were on the biased pgc minds? And your progressive archery tackle is moot, because its still hand drawn and held, not scoping a target and pulling a trigger. So, congratulations for your win. Pennsylvania archers lost this battle. And, you are among a minority for asking about inclusion, we found out post xbow that the progressive push wash cash driven by manufacturers, that's why one will set you back a couple grand now....
I was the (UBP) office manager back then and if we had a couple million dollars to spend fighting inclusion, it would not have mattered. Those PGC commissioners had their minds made up. We even made suggestions for incrementally bringing them in a week or two at a time or giving them their own trial season and license (like bear and muzzle loader). Remember having a one day archery bear season? You still only get one buck tag.
5C, at the time when full inclusion was being considered, there was a crossbow on the market shoot 425fps and some were touting 100 yard shots. Now, 11 years later, the average crossbow that most hunters hunt with is still less than 400 fps. Do far shots happen with crossbows? Absolutely. Is it the norm? Data shows absolutely not. Are people taking further shots with vertical bows? Absolutely. Is that the norm? Absolutely not. I would disagree that Pennsylvania archers lost this battle. For those with vision and not bias, this was a win for hunting and for archery hunting moving forward. Our ranks are now stronger and for the most part supportive of each other except for some outliers that tend to hang in places like this.
Horsethief, and as we now see, most crossbow supporters were correct that the incremental approach and separate license was not warranted based on the tons of data that was already available. The resource would be protected and archery season would still be expanded, which is exactly what happened.
Proud outlier here. I chose the challenge over easy. When target panic hits, it's an obstacle to overcome, not a reason to lobby for an easier weapon.
"Do far shots happen with crossbows? Absolutely. Is it the norm? Data shows absolutely not."
What data is that? Compiled by Xbow groups? Manufacturers? How's the data verified?
BTW, back in 2008 & 2009 there was no huge push by BOWhunters to include crossbows. I remember talking to techs at LAS and Kinsey's and aside from the occasional physically disabled wanting a setup, there wasn't this huge demand. In fact it was quite minimal.
"For those with vision and not bias,..."
Then push for a 3 week any weapon season. All those new "bowhunters" will revert back to what they are most comfortable with.
"Our ranks are now stronger..."
Ya, think? Propose removing two weeks from archery, or go back to pre-1993 season length and we'll see how much "support" is there.
"...except for some outliers that tend to hang in places like this."
Well, unlike HuntingPA.com where all negative xbow talk is quickly censored, we can still debate and talk about the pros and cons (mostly cons :) ) of xbows in general archery season.
Never wish it was easier. Wish you were better.
"Never wish it was easier. Wish you were better." X2
Push yourself to be better.
I'm not sure if Mr. dpms realizes he's the only agreeing with himself on this site or not.
I always said pennsylvania should keep archery season archery season, should have kept the old rule , need to have a disability to hunt with a crossbow, maby the youth too that's it, archery was meant for stick and string. No triggers no scopes.. soon I sure hope not they could allow scoped inlines in the late flintlock season , inline hunters are complaining because they let crossbows in archery why not inclines in late season flintlock, if you don't want to better yourself or not up to the challenge then do all your hunting with a 30 06... took me 10 years to harvest my first deer with a flintlock. Had misses. Had miss fires , had a damn good time, now that challenge is over for me cause I got a harvest...
Bowbender, data was from state game agencies. Why would anybody propose removing two weeks from the season when the resource is not a concern and season have been lengthened due to no biological impact from archery? If you hunt with traditional gear. Props to you! You should tell your fellow brothers and sisters here that use compounds to be not wish for easier but to wish to be better..........
Gene- years ago a PGC Biologist warned that if too many bucks were killed pre-rut, that the archery season would have to be shortened. I don’t have the data, but I have to believe with what I am hearing, that the archery buck kill is continually increasing from year to year, that we are getting dangerously close to that point!
Hawkeye. Oh, I understand the crowd. No worries. But, the thread was started about crossbows by someone else, not me. I don't mind offering opinions about a topic I actually know something about and countering mistruths, assumptions, and stereotypes. As long as it is civil, what is the harm. Only Dale was incapable of civility.
Bowhunter. I enjoy challenges. I have hunted with a a flintlock in rifle season. Have hunted with a compound rifle season. Hunt with an open sighted 357 some times. I have even hunted with a traditional longbow. Besides the archery rut, late flintlock is my favorite time of the year. Spot and stalk with the flintlock is tough to beat. With that said, everybody is free to determine the challenge level they desire. As long as the hunter is happy, I am happy for them.
Rut, there has been looked at many times and there have been no concerns raised. You must remember we are killing does in archery, early muzzleloader and junior/senior rifle now. That harvest offsets the the increase antlered harvest nicely and keeps buck to doe ratios good. Many states have the bulk of their antlered harvest prior to peak breeding and there have been no issues there. It is a red herring argument.
dpms, I started this thread and never once have I said get rid of xbows. Only high power per-set scopes for all archery equipment. Scopes for "all" archery equipment.. If they can get rid of a hole weapon for a season and limit other weapons, like Pa has and other states have. They can get rid of scopes in archery season. It's already being seen that higher bucks numbers are being killed before the ruts over and as more and more high power scope are being used, the numbers will only be going up. It's 2021 where will it be in 2025 and be on??
Here's the thing scopes can be removed and you can still use xbows and hand drawn bows with pin sights. YES or NO?? One more thing the non-archery hunters are starting to see whats happening and saying what left for us!!!
I will be carrying my flintlock this Saturday up at my camp..and all of rifle season...
John is right on all points he made.
Someone, I believe it was Ed, said those using crossbows should be limited to having sight pins. However, he didn't mention one huge advantage a scoped crossbow has. One very unfair advantage, to using a scope that I've haven't heard anyone ever mention. One that gives a huge advantage to the person using it. One, I believe is the biggest advantage of all: Light Gathering Capability. The light gathering capabilities of a scope, compared to the naked human eye, is an unfair advantage in low light situations. The deer that's safe from a bowhunter, at any distance, using no sights, or pin sights, is not safe from a hunter using a scoped crossbow because of the scope's light gathering capability.
Dmps- you may want to get that pierced butt worked on :)
Whats that name of that new crossbow think it's the raven , it's suppose to shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards, I know a guy who has one he said it will shoot 120 140 yards like that...
Bowhunter. Ravin actively advertises 100 yard shots on game. The reality is any crossbow is capable of it. The thing is most shoot at 40 and under at game and data backs that up. I own a Ravin and my furthest shot thus far at game has been 32 yards. I have shot deer, turkey, feral swine and bears with it.
Teeton. I already answered that. Yes, scopes could be removed but no, I would not support it as I do not believe it would have a measurable impact and it is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist. No harm has come from crossbows. Only more people enjoying the sport which is a good thing.
Bob. Yes, the light gathering capability of a scope is an advantage. As with most weapons in different seasons there are advantages to each of them. In firearms season, there are vast differences in the capabilities of firearms that are legal to use. Just like in archery seasons. There are many circumstances where the advantages of a compound result in opportunities that are far and few between with stick bows. Same with crossbows versus other bows.
I've found that most new archers will hunt way out side of their comfort zone dealing with the distance being shot. And the more they want that rack the further the shot will be stretched. Experience is the only thing changing that for the most part and some will never get it. Now you're (and a survey) is telling me a new or newly converted archery hunter to the archery season is going to buy a cross bow and keep the shot under 40 yards with the manufacture saying it's good for 100 yards?
For those that are worried about rifle hunters being concerned about archers killing all of the bucks, the data simply doesn't support a biological or legitimate social concern. Success rates for rifle hunters are nearly identical in this state than they were before crossbows, according to the PGC. Many rifle hunters are surprised to hear that as it shoots a hole in their argument. I wish more here would speak truth when it comes to that issue. Also, rifle only hunters are not the vast majority like they used to be. Currently, about 45% of our deer hunters also hunt in archery season. That used to be only 25%. We have lost a ton of deer hunters. Most of those the traditional rifle only folks. We used to have 1.1 million deer hunters. Now 750,000. Taking opportunity away for social reasons is taking opportunity away for half of the deer hunters to appease the other half. Makes zero sense if one is being objective. RutNut, the next time someone says archery hunters are killing all of the bucks, hit them with the rifle success rates being unchanged which is factual, instead of its the crossbows fault.
I agree that the archers are not killing all the big bucks, as a state AR has really taken hold and we are seeing the fruits of letting the young bucks walk no doubt. No one is arguing about taking opportunities away from anyone, your the one chiming in on that, our (my) point is that this weapon belonged where it was, in the gun season and those that needed it due to physical limitations, not the general archery seasons. You love to come on "bow site" and bore us with this inclusion for all hunters and all weapons and paint us as deplorables because we took a stand against a weapon that is not a bow. Sue me, I and a lot of others realize we lost, and are living with it, it does not mean we will divide our ranks simply because we disagree. We all love to hunt, the question of this thread is what is the limit and how far that weapon has pushed it. Even you need to acknowledge that when you seen that with 2 bolts ready to be fired you thought to yourself, how is that even legal or where can I get one. And top it with a low light optic scope, trigger, dual bolts, sling and range finder built in- yeah some of us are not digging the limits. We may have lost but it does not mean we like it. It also means Gene that most of us will not divide our declining ranks over it either.
Your on the train for less hunters over time, well it is not just weapons. How about the reluctance of seasons? No SH except the few they gave us to shut us up for a few years till they finally figure the sky will not fall. Or lack of lands that are now McMansions? Sure, go to the game lands, let me know how that works for you. But the baby boomers who propped up some of those traditions are dying off or just give up because they lost that desire. And a lot of it did not get passed onto their kids simply because the generational gaps are changing. And unless you have lived under a rock for the last 60 years, the PGC and the regulations of PA have not evolved fast enough or foresighted enough to prosper, they are still clinging to rules that were relevant in the 50's. So there is my spin. We are not all evil and some of us even have close friends that made the jump to horizontal, and I still call them friends and hunt with them today. We just disagree on it and hunt.
Dpms,, Not every post I post, is for you. Many are for informing others that are posting and others just reading.
Dpms, this question is not for you.
As the archery harvest continues to increase, from technology and it starts to impact our deer herd. What would be the best course of action. Limit technology or make changes to the deer seasons? Science or $$$$$ ??? Remember the GC already stated a what if. Leaving the door open for change.
Also ask any gun only hunter what they think about much higher harvest rates of archers.
Teeton, you know the answer to this already. And the crystal ball the PGC hides in the back room already foretold this answer. They will no doubt limit seasons. With the influx of gun hunters picking up horizontal it is a no brainer, and the cross sections of archers will pay the price for this increased harvest. The two weeks additional you and the UBP fought for will be a memory. Like "remember when you could archery hunt into November?"..
^^^^^ exactly. Remember when? No Sunday hunting and not being able to hunt in November is what sent me to many other states to hunt in that time frame. I’m glad it did and I continue to do so.
Modern Crossbows in archery season is laughable, and the law should be rescinded to vertical bows only.
In preparation for an elk hunt last year I started practicing at longer distances. This is a 50 yard "cold" group. Top two arrows are FP's. Bottom is a ST ViperTrick. For me it required solid form, practice, and commitment. Not optics and a rest.
Never wish it was easier. Wish you were better.
Hawkeye. I am not saying that all new crossbow hunter will not shoot beyond 40 yards at game. Some will. I was just stating some actual data from states that track it that the average shot distance on game from crossbows is less than 40 yards. I would consider myself a seasoned crossbow hunter and I believe I have only taken one shot at game over 40 yards. I would say my average shot distance is under 30 which is what it was in my vertical days. Now if I would go out west or to the Canadian prairies, I would certainly anticipate further shooting and would probably do so under ideal circumstances just as the vertical guys do. Shooting distance is not something new in the vertical world either.
5C. Several here in this thread have talked about shortening the archery season or creating a shorter crossbow season with some saying that others(rifle hunters) may be concerned about the climbing archery antlered buck harvest. As I added, it is up to all of us to tell those folks that success rates in rifle are basically unchanged so the idea that archers are killing all of the bucks is simply false. On that you and I agree. In regards to your "deplorable" comment. I have been nothing but respectful. I look at all hunters as peers and allies of mine. I have not been on here for many years. I don't particularly "love to come here". I do come on occasionally to see what people are doing and killing. Its all good. I rarely post. On Sunday hunting I am a huge supporter and continue to actively work to move that forward. This partial SH approach is dreadful. There is certainly much more than can be done to help keep hunting strong in this state.
Bowbender, why did you take the easier route?
This is not directed at Teeton but for others that have commented on the climbing archery harvest and the concern for shortened seasons. I would hope everybody is capable of discussing this factually to offset those concerns when it comes up. Just some facts the next time this comes up here or among your discussions elsewhere. Now 45% of our deer hunters also archery hunt. That used to be 25%. We have lost a ton of rifle deer hunters over the years. We used to have 1.1 million deer hunters. That number is down to 750,000. Rifle deer hunters are barely a majority in this state. Shortening one season at the expense of half of our deer hunters to appease the other half of half our deer hunters makes zero sense. The success rates on antlered deer in rifle season is essentially the same as prior to crossbows. Archery hunters are not shooting all of the bucks. We are also shooting does in archery, early muzzleloader, and early junior/senior rifle which helps to offset the antlered harvest and keep buck/doe ratios in balance during breeding. Why some here continue to play into the season may have to be shortened angle is beyond me.
"Bowbender, why did you take the easier route?"
Aw.....so cute when they think there is a gotcha. Hand held, hand drawn, sight pin vs cocked, locked ready to rock, securely mounted on a tripod with a ~4X scope requiring someone to pull a trigger. So simple a five year old can do it.
To paraphrase Gus from Breaking Bad,
I shoot a hand held, hand drawn, no optics vertical bow, you shoot a shoulder mounted, fully supported, optic ready xbow. We are not the same.
Bowbender, but why did you take the easier route? Its a fair question for someone that claims that he wishes others were better. BTW, we are both hunters but we hunt with different weapons in a certain season. In one regard, we are the same, in another we are not. I don't yearn to be the same. It seems like you yearn to be different. It is quite silly. I am just a hunter that enjoys hunting. I don't have to wear some kind of badge of honor on my sleeve.
I came across a couple interesting articles last night. This was a 2018 article, so the 59k archery buck kill was for 2017...............
"Bowbender, but why did you take the easier route? Its a fair question for someone that claims that he wishes others were better."
Because I blew my shoulder out in 2000. And while I shoot ten months out of the year, some weeks it's only 1 or 2 days. To shoot my recurve and be proficient, I need to shoot 4-5X a week. And my shoulder will not tolerate it. The Dr wanted to give me a note for a xbow. I passed. My issue was physical that couldn't be improved and continues to deteriorate. Did that answer your seemingly condescending question?
"It seems like you yearn to be different. It is quite silly."
That's why I picked up the bow. And seek out FFO areas. And hunt with a flintlock. So I'm silly for being different? NWOC.
"I am just a hunter that enjoys hunting."
Again, then push for a 3 week any weapon season. Just hunt.
"I don't have to wear some kind of badge of honor on my sleeve."
Nor do I. But then I'm not the one equivocating there is no difference between a hand held, hand drawn, no optics, vertical bow and shoulder mounted, fully supported, optic ready, +100 yard range, so simple a five year old can do it, are the same.
It must be a refreshing change of pace to be able to pop in here and actually debate the issue, instead of the usual censorship on HuntingPA.
Oh, almost forgot. Your "data" on long range shots by xbows gathered by state agencies. Well, it isn't data. Data is defined as factual information. In other words, its verifiable. I'd venture a guess that the vast majority of xbow hunters are NOT going to state the range they actually shoot at. There is a large field on the farm I hunt. 150 acres or so. along two edges are three ground blinds used by xbow hunters. We've watched them lug their xbows and tripods to the blinds in mid afternoon. And then watch them take +100 yard shots at deer. I suspect longer shots are way more common than the "data" gathered by state agencies indicates.
Bowbender said; " But then I'm not the one equivocating there is no difference between a hand held, hand drawn, no optics, vertical bow and shoulder mounted, fully supported, optic ready, +100 yard range, so simple a five year old can do it, are the same."
I have not said that either. There is no equivalency in terms of the weapons, but I do support their use in archery seasons. The crossbow is superior to other bows types as far as performance, ease of use, and success rates.
Glad to see that you are out there doing what you enjoy. Best of luck and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
Gene, you try to dismiss the increased archery buck kill, but it has gone from 31,500 in 2008 to over 80,000 last season.
I remember sitting in a PGC meeting back in the day listening to a PGC biologist who was concerned with not only the total number of bucks killed, but the percentage of mature bucks killed Pre-Rut. I specifically remember him saying if it approached 50%, it would be very concerning and very likely detrimental to the resource.
If you look at the statistics from the last 2 years we are there! 2019/20 was 50.8% and 2020/21 was 49.9%
Rut, respectfully, 50% of the harvest means squat. What matters is what percentage of bucks are removed from the total male herd and if that number is high enough to alter breeding success. That is what matters. Dubrock was arbitrarily throwing a number out there that was not based on anything just to give an answer he was being pressed on. I remember that discussion as well. Data should drive the discussion. Are conception dates changing? No. Are we also removing female deer from the herd at the same time? Yes. We are removing female deer via the early muzzleloader season and the junior/senior rifle season in addition to female harvest in archery season. That female harvest has to also be factored into the discussion and helps to offset the antlered harvest. As I said before, in many other states the bulk of the antlered harvest is prior to peak breeding. In some destination states for whitetails, the percent buck harvest by archery has been 50% or higher for awhile and hunters still flock there for the great deer hunting.
I am just asking that people, like yourself, don't cling to a talking point from a long time ago without taking into account the real data that is available to look at the issue objectively. In regards to rifle hunters being concerned. Again when it comes up the data says that success rates in rifle are essentially unchanged and rifle only hunters are not the great majority they used to be. 55% of the total deer hunters now.
Does the information I presented not make any sense to you at all? Doe harvest being factored in. Percent of total bucks, not percent of harvest. Breeding dates. Rifle success today compared to pre crossbow........
From: dpms 24-Nov-21 Why some here continue to play into the season may have to be shortened angle is beyond me
See my post above Gene
Rut, you do realize that some destination states for deer the antlered archery harvest has been around 50% or higher for many, many years?
I agree with BC173. Our state organization should start taking a hard look at getting some things changed. The UBP fought against the crossbow in archery season but the almighty dollar won out. IMHO the x-bow is not a bow and should not be allowed in archery season. I have no problem with handicapped or senior hunters using one. Unfortunately the crossbow manufacturers have gotten a foothold into archery season and I feel that eventually it going to lead to shorter seasons. I guess for me I am old school and that I started bowhunting when I was 12. I started with a Jennings sidekick that I practiced everyday with. Now I shoot traditional archery for the last 30+ years. I feel I earned my way into being a bowhunter not a instint one like the x-bow has done for a lot. I guess for some it's all about what's gonna be the easiest where they don't have to put to much effort into it. I know some are gonna say it helps get more people into the sport but I don't think the x- bow is the way to do it. I'm sorry if I ruffled some feathers but this is just of my thoughts, I could go on, but I have said enough.
The reason this was locked (and then opened for Ed to post) was because it went off on a tangent from the original post about technology. That was a valid point worthy of discussion.
Like them or not, crossbows are here to stay and and continuing to discuss them offers no value here.
They are. I'd just like to get back to fair chase instead of.. laser sights, scopes archery equipment that shoots over 400 fps - or 300, for that matter cameras that send instant pics to your phone - and some people own 2 dozen, or more sitting in these incredible blinds playing video games until something comes - no worries about scent, movement etc... I'd like to see game agencies draw the line - as I have no faith that MFR's and hunters will. Easier/more is better. Hunting once was a primitive endeavor - where woodsmanship and being one with nature was a big part of the experience Hopefully, the game commission will put limits on some of the tech that go against fair chase. Unfortunately, for me, I'm in the minority as many/most do not share my view. Thanks.
Amen to that Mark S. Could not agree more.
To echo what Mark and redlion said. Yes. It's still ridiculous!
Technology has also invaded the vertical world. Both Garmin and Oracle both have laser rangefinding sights for the compound folks and most seem to embraced it with open arms.
"Both Garmin and Oracle both have laser rangefinding sights for the compound folks and most seem to embraced it with open arms."
I don't think most have, and certainly not this guy. FWIW, I have yet to see one being used.
I know of 1 guy that has a lazer rangefinding Sight on his compound bow out of probably 100 Bowhunters I know. I wouldn’t call that “embracing with open arms!” The price alone($800+), will limit the accessibility for the average Bowhunter.
I would support limiting compound bows and crossbows to NON-range finding sights and NO magnification on scopes.
And I shoot in 3Ds all the time, with guys from all aspects of archery from bows to equipment and have yet to see 1... so, yeah we have embraced it. 800 bucks is a bit much even if you're bow is 1200...
I guess I should have been more clear. The vertical crowd has not come out heavily against this technology when it was introduced to their market. That is the point I was trying to make. Since it was not opposed, it was accepted as just another accessory to consider. Other than on my own bows, I have not seen another crossbow hunter with a laser rangefinding sight either.
Gene...no kidding. It is that way in most of society. It is maximizing opportunity while minimizing effort. For me, its about the challenge. For most, it is about getting it done with the least effort. I wish there were numbers available showing how many vertical archers crossed over and how many new folks came into the archery season. God how I wish we could go back to the old ways of a four week season and the only folks in the wood were archery hunters, squirrel hunters and grouse hunters. I also wish that the PGC would require archery hunters to kill a doe before shooting a buck. Let them use gun season for controlling the herd. We are no longer a group that has minimal impact and its pi$$ing off a lot of gun hunters.
Bob, I agree this should be earn a buck state. Kill a doe, you can Kill a buck. But, the good old days I disagree with. You're good old days was seeing nothing but archers and small game hunters. Well, we also were saddled with herds of does, poor habitats and not so many bucks. Having the woods to your self is nice, but you can have the good old game management system.
Bob, who is the group you say are angry? Gun hunters? Well, I'd like to see the numbers of first time archery stamps over the last 20 years. That may make the argument better. A lot of gun guys are converting to xguns. And ain't slowing. But if they are angry tell them they too can bowhunt. Last time I checked there are no limits to archery stamps.
John. I think I qualified my comment about the "good old days", by saying that gun hunters can do the job for deer, as they can now. Currently you have two weeks that you can kill does state wide with a gun. In my area I will need to wear orange(to be safe) because folks can carry centerfires in the post Christmas season this year. Now come October, I see inliners, centerfires, pheasant hunters and these mis-informed "archery" (which they aren't) hunters. As far as angry gun hunters, you are right about them having the same opportunity to bowhunt. However, there ain't hardly an issue goes by that there isn't a letter in PA Outdoor News complaining about the bowhunters killing all the bucks. How's that saying go about "perception being everything"? It will be spring till we see if archery stamp sales rose again this year. I expect they will.
Good hunting to you brother.
Gun season is like the first day of trout season over by 11 AM. And I don't think the data will back that up.
I did not hunt yesterday morning and took a drive "around" our farm/woodlots block of river mountains and I saw zero trucks/cars, no orange in the field/woods then stopped in at my local butcher shop. He had 6 skun out deer hanging and 8 more on the floor waiting. Only 2 decent racks on the side and only 1 buck in the pile waiting. Stopped at our gun club to see how the weighing was going. Scales were there but nobody waiting. Found out that they only weighed all day the first 2 or 3 days and went to evening weighing only. E-mail from our club secretary said weighings were dramatically down both here in Rimersburg and in New Bethlehem.
Gunners been complaining since the 80's that bowhunters kill too many bucks.
Bob H said; "We are no longer a group that has minimal impact and its pi$$ing off a lot of gun hunters."
The problem is we do not have a lot of gun hunters any longer. We have lost 300,000 or so of them. Gun only hunters used to be 75-80% of our deer hunters. Now they are only 55%. Their voice has shrunken. Doing anything to appease them at the expense of another group is also pi$$ing off almost half of our deer hunters.
Bob M. You are correct. Actually longer than that. But, those baby boomers are quitting and our replacement ranks are less than those leaving. Gen X like myself only fill part of that void. It's going to be a problem, but they won't address it. And as a side note, those complaints are not really justified. Those archery killings have not been sorted by weapons. How many of their fellow gun hunters who are converted now do not gun hunt after killing a buck in archery? Like to know that answer.
"The problem is we do not have a lot of gun hunters any longer. We have lost 300,000 or so of them. Gun only hunters used to be 75-80% of our deer hunters. Now they are only 55%. Their voice has shrunken. Doing anything to appease them at the expense of another group is also pi$$ing off almost half of our deer hunters."
No, we didn't lose 300,000 gun hunters. We lost 300,000 hunters total. I submit that gun hunters still make up the bulk of our hunters. I also submit, many joined the archery ranks once a weapon they are familiar with was legalized.
What would be interesting, is if an archery only license was sold. Seperate the chaff from the wheat.
I was watching WNEP’s PA Outdoor life on Sunday and saw something in the PEOPLE AND PLACES segment that immediately reminded me of this thread! Can you spot it?
Bowbender said; "No, we didn't lose 300,000 gun hunters. We lost 300,000 hunters total. I submit that gun hunters still make up the bulk of our hunters. I also submit, many joined the archery ranks once a weapon they are familiar with was legalized."
That is not correct. We used to have 1.1 million that participated in rifle deer season. The PGC now says that we have roughly 700-750,000 that hunt rifle deer. We now sell over 370,000 archery licenses. Do the math. Add in the 80,000 that were successful on bucks in archery and that puts us at 780-830,000 deer hunters in this state. That is down roughly 300,000 from historical highs. The loss is rifle hunters. And deer hunters that also archery hunt make up about 45% of all deer hunters.
Perry, kids first kill was 80 yards using a scoped ravin crossbow.
Old man's first archery kill at 43 yards using a scoped ravin crossbow.
or, maybe you saw something else.
I did the math and unless you have specific only licenses there is no way you can catagorically state that we lost 300,00 rifle only hunters. We had a loss of hunters (overall) and a capitalization on a legalized weapon by others. I know you want xbows to be be the salvation of hunting in PA. It's not. Nor is Sunday hunting or the Saturday opener. Fingers in a leaking dike.
Bowbender said; "I did the math and unless you have specific only licenses there is no way you can catagorically state that we lost 300,00 rifle only hunters. "
We did not lose archery hunters. We gained archery hunters but our deer hunter numbers have gone down from 1.1 million to 800,000. Its pretty clear who has hung it up. PGC archery sales data has 370,000 licenses sold last year. That is just resident and non resident and does not include combos that also may archery hunt.
From: Bob McArthur 01-Dec-21
Perry, kids first kill was 80 yards using a scoped ravin crossbow.
BINGO! (And the fact that Don Jacobs put emphasis on the 80y shot with a crossbow like it should be applauded! ) IMHO no “mentor” should be encouraging a 9 y/o to take a shot at a TARGET at 80y with a crossbow ................let alone a live animal! : ( I wonder how many folks will try a 50,60,70 or 80y shot now after seeing that on PA Outdoor Life??????
I like to put things into perspective. Is 80 yards a far shot at game with an arrow? Absolutely. Is shooting game at 80 yards something that we should be encouraging for average folks or kids? Absolutely not. With that said, there are plenty of folks out there that successfully practice at extended ranges and take big game animals with compounds and crossbows. Watch some of the outdoor TV and there are plenty of vertical folks shooting at muleys, whitetails, elk. moose at 80 yards plus. This is not something that is unique to crossbows. Is long range shooting at game something I do? Nope. But it can be done successfully. All I do is ask that people are proficient at it and take their shots wisely. Both with compounds and crossbows.
Take firearms for instance. Most people have no business shooting 500 yards plus at game but some will do it anyways. With folks that practice at extended ranges, they are quite successful at it and probably better shots at 500 yards than the average Pa gun hunter is at 150 yards.
Levi Morgan is better shooting at 100 yards than the average Pa archery hunter is at 25 yards.
I know I have not posted in awhile, more sitting back watching a learning.
I honestly believe that your going to see support from the Game Commission with the advancement archery optics.. But the limits are going to have to be for all archery equipment..
Heres the thing, as soon as limits are suggested.. Your going to see lobbyist pushing legislators to put pressure on the Game Commission. And this as sportsmen and women "MUST' put a stop to this. Respectfully Ed
Gene- this was an inexperienced 9 y/o kid that never took a deer before! I actually don’t blame the kid, but her “mentor” should really be questioned for letting her take that shot! : (
I also seriously question why Don Jacobs and WNEP would glorify such behavior?! I will be sending an e-mail to WNEP about this!
Providing any tiny bit of justification for a 9 year old child, let alone any person shooting at an animal at 80 yards in a wild setting is an absolute joke. Yeah, the obligatory “no that shouldn't be encouraged” was there, as a CYA and then the “but some ppl do take long shots and are proficient at long shots” because leaving that out would be a notch in the favor of crossbow technology pushing things too far….thats silly. And any credibility that may have been there has been lost. Sadly clownish….
Rut, as I said we should not be encouraging it for young or inexperienced shooters. On that we agree.
My guess is archery license sales don't increase or flat line in the coming years, maybe even start to drop?? But archery harvest rates will continue to climb do to advancement in optics with more and more of them that are going to be out there in the coming years.
Should we just sit on our butts until ?? or should we start to plan now? Of course anyone that makes money off how it is now is going to say wait, don't plan, don't be ready..
Unfortunately many changes have come from social pressure, and the game commission is getting it right now from the non archery deer hunters. Why don't we have all Sundays to hunt?? Is it biological or social pressure that's preventing it?? Can I, we, us use the pressure from non archery hunter, coupled with pressure from a bunch of archery hunters to enact limits on archery equipment?
^^^^ We can only hope, Ed.
And if anyone believes the above described scenario ( young girl shooting 80 yds. with a mentor ) is the exception and not the rule, they are sadly mistaking. And the ease of that, is the exact reason archery license/kills are escalating. If we don’t police ourselves, someone else will and we probably won’t like their decision.
Yes, at some point archery license sales will flatline or drop. Right now archery and predator hunting are the two games in town that are still popular or growing. My question continues to be why should archery hunters support limitation if there are no biological concerns? We, as a group, are strong enough in numbers to defend against social attacks if we stay united. Why fragment and attack each other. It makes zero sense. Use me and others that use crossbows as allies, not enemies.
From: dpms 01-Dec-21
Rut, as I said we should not be encouraging it for young or inexperienced shooters. On that we agree.
Gene- we should NOT be encouraging it by ANYONE using a crossbow that shoots a bolt that loses much more energy past 40y than a full sized arrow! : (
Rut & DPMS,
Tell that to the xbow manufacturers. Never, ever, forget. "Meet your next 100 yard rifle."
Ok, Gene on this fragmenting we agree. And united is where we should be, and united against the anti's who want to take what we love and see it go away. But Gene, take off those rose-colored glasses for a sec and ponder this. Like the title of this thread says, what is the limit? You see 6,7,8-year old's taking 80 yards shots and sometimes more than that because they can, and I am not a person to begrudge a young person from entering a sport I love and being successful is a great thing to see. But you gotta see the drawbacks of this! Laser rangefinders mounted on it, full stock, scopes and a convenient trigger to boot. If you say that is not beyond the limit, then we are not talking about the same thing. And as smart as you are, do not get me started on kinetic energy at 100 yards, even you know that bolt loses a bunch after 50. SO, what is the limit, 3 bolts instead of 2 fired at the same time?
“ Why fragment and attack each other. It makes zero sense. Use me and others that use crossbows as allies, not enemies.”
Ummmmm…..crossbow technology seems to be, quite obviously (for those who arent for them), creating a situation where someone using the weapon THINKS they should be shooting animals at long ranges(lets just use 80 yards for example). That isnt an ally, that is an enemy.
Can they? Yeah they CAN, because they shoot from their picnic table in their yard at their still target and can hold great groups at 59/60/70/80 yards. Should they? No, because its a perceived ability and not an actual ability. They cant get their picnic table into their blind and more importantly, they have zero control over what a live animal does and doesn't do at 35 yards let alone 50/60/70/80 yards. The technology creates that picture. That dad isnt letting a kid shoot at that deer at 80 yards, or 30 with any kind of vertical bow, or furthermore to the point of the OP, with a crossbow that doesn't have a scope with magnification. He isnt doing that with a compound either, but if he sure is with the crossbow.
THAT is why the question is being asked, at what point is what a person does no longer an ally. Its legal…the question was WHATS THE LIMIT as to where it will start to negatively affect us.
Gene, i dont know you and you very well may be a fine man, a straight shooter and someone who evaluates things while understanding that things change and there is a possibility that your way of thinking might need to adapt with those changes to still have a shot at being right. But from what i read, its obvious to me that you just don’t quite know how much you think you know based off whatever stats you are leaning heavily into.
Rut said; "Gene- we should NOT be encouraging it by ANYONE using a crossbow that shoots a bolt that loses much more energy past 40y than a full sized arrow! "
Actually Rut, arrows coming from modern compounds and especially crossbows are easily able to shoot through deer at 200 yards. Many 400 grain arrows from modern crossbows are still traveling above 330 fps at 100 yards which likely has more speed and energy than your compound does at 30 yards.
The concern is not the ability of the arrow when it hits the animal at these long distances, it is the ability to put that arrow where it needs to be at long distances.
Bowhunting5C said: "You see 6,7,8-year old's taking 80 yards shots and sometimes more than that because they can, and I am not a person to begrudge a young person from entering a sport I love and being successful is a great thing to see. But you gotta see the drawbacks of this!"
I do. I have said it many times. Even said it here.
Bowhuning5C said: "And as smart as you are, do not get me started on kinetic energy at 100 yards, even you know that bolt loses a bunch after 50. SO, what is the limit, 3 bolts instead of 2 fired at the same time?"
Have you looked at any new data? Many 400 grain arrows from the newer crossbows are still traveling well above 300 fps at 100 yards. Momentum and KE is not the concern. Shot placement is. Again, I do not advocate for long distance shooting.
Sip said; "THAT is why the question is being asked, at what point is what a person does no longer an ally. Its legal…the question was WHATS THE LIMIT as to where it will start to negatively affect us."
I don't want to happen either. Every ounce of data that is objective shows no negative affects from crossbows to season length of the resource. Now there are social pressures, but there always was and always will be. We have facts to counter the social pressures. For instance, some rifle hunters believe archery hunters shoot all of the bucks. They have been saying that for decades and the data proves it is bunk.
If something changes, I will certainly take notice.
Stickbow shooters have put plenty of much heavier arrows right thru deer rib cages under 20 yards with 45 pound bows with speeds under 200 feet per second. Sharp broadheads and good placement.
SIP just “nailed it” with his last post!
This Topic has been locked. Thank you.
