Equipment Limitations
Wisconsin
I see technology is overstepping a primitive weapon season. I’m going to not make many friends in the near future but I’m going to introduce resolutions for banning weapon mounted range finding scopes. I’m also introducing one for the new Excalibur double shot Xbow. I’ll ask you guys do the same in the near future for the spring hearing.
It is. And I will support those resolutions.
I support it, unfortunately we are at least 30 years late.
I will support it also, can we add cell cams to the list, I see 3 states have gone that route already.
I see a 216 inches was harvested after a cell pic a few hours before, Shouldn’t be that way.
No scopes on Muzzleloaders or crossbows should be added to the list. I don't like the cell camera revolution either.
DT, I would also support that, including what Jackpine said above. I can give or take on the camera issue.
The real time camera revolution is only in it's infancy, will build from here.
I agree MO, I might bend a little and be ok outside of the hunting season.
I will try and remind everyone closer to add your resolution for the county you reside in and we can get a random idea how this will go when it gets to a state wide vote. I might be late to the game but Pete knows when I jump in on something, I’m all in. You can now submit resolutions electronically I believe so you don’t even need to attend.
I don’t get to excited about scoped muzzleloaders. The participation and harvest for this season is minimal.
We tend to blame the rules instead of the hunters themselves. I have many self imposed rules that no one would agree with, yet I feel like some technology is actually fine for hunting. Ultimately most people are not hell bent on changing things they use, and don't mind changing things that they don't use. I'd ask you Will, what is the harm in a weapon mounted range finder? Would you prefer people guess instead, and take pot shots at deer? I don't own one, but I see no harm in having one, and honestly in respect to the animal, it is probably a better for the animal. Now if you think by disallowing it, people will pass on the shot because they don't know the distance to aim, I'd disagree with it. The double barrel crossbow is a bit over the top, but the single shot crossbow isn't? If you can get two shots off on a deer from a pre-cocked crossbow, I don't think having a second shot will give you that much of an advantage, unless you think you can shoot a doe, then the buck at the same time, or a doe than a fawn, or perhaps by removing the weapon mounted range finder, they can adjust on their second shot after missing their first lol. Instead, how about a silly concept in the form of a resolution, that allows people who are either handicapped, or over the age of 65 to use a single shot crossbow, and hell, we will throw in the weapon mounted range finder? Point being, the real issue with any resolution, is pleasing the masses, and fixing what's really wrong.
Private land and public land, as well as northern forest and southern farmland are plain and simply put, different. A resolution needs terms that apply to everyone, and in simplest terms, there are several considerations to make, when our state compromises of several variables. While I think portions of the state are in dire straits, I think other portions are just fine, and it's often very difficult for people who don't venture out beyond their niche, to grasp that concept, and understand that things might not be bleak everywhere, when they are, where you hunt. I for one, use a range finder. Albeit one that fits in my pocket, and I have NEVER EVER used it one time to range a wild moving animal that I'd consider shooting. Those videos are narrated for the viewers to believe that happens. Is it advantageous to use a weapon mounted one? Of course, but it can also be said, better for the animal. Truth is, I range spots from my stand, before the hunt starts. I already use self implemented distances I will shoot to, and that is normally 20 yards. Do some people shoot further? Sure. Are some better than me? Absolutely. The fact is, those people are those people, and my people are....well, me.
What is the real issue when making a rules change? Either the current rule doesn't make sense, it gives advantages that may hurt the quarry's longterm numbers, it doesn't give adequate advantage to the hunter, it has an agenda driven by money or it simply doesn't appeal to someone. The latter two, are almost always the case. While someone has an idea that fits their bill, it makes zero sense to another individual.
Some people have used the word apathy when describing myself. "I lack apathy". Well, I would disagree. What I do lack, is the same need or hate for change, because it is something I've dealt with since being born, or it doesn't impact me like it does someone else. I will describe it like cancer. We all know the word, and the devastation it can cause to a loved one or ourselves, but you lack apathy or empathy until it hits home. Sure, we send out internet prayers wishing the best to someone who's dealing with it, but do we truly carry the same feeling unless it hits home? Well, that's been the whole concept here on bowsite. People up in arms over some form of "cancer", and truth be told, we are all part of the problem. For example, I hear of low deer numbers up north. The excuses are the DNR, we shouldn't kill does, the wolves, the bears, the indians, the bait, the crossbow, the poachers, etc., etc. The fact is, it is the people who continue to hunt that are most to blame. I know I seem like I'm rambling, but the apathy I lack, is for the blaming. Is it better here in farmland? Damn skippy! Why? Because we went through the damn CWD slaughter, and saw what happened with the last proposal of total eradication, which was to stop the spread of CWD. Then private land owners got wise, and said to hell with that! These are the self imposed guidelines. The only place it works however is where private landowners can do the managing. Public land is a cesspool for takers, including private landowners who don't mind filling a doe tag from there, meanwhile leaving their land alone.
Will, we have talked. Your waterfowl proposal was one I endorsed. It was a good change for hunters. It however did not give the advantage to the ducks who were offered incredible refuge here in Wisconsin, meanwhile raped in many other states. The concept made sense, especially considering we brood many here. Your two resolutions for deer hunting is not going to fix the problem for those dealing with it however, and that is the lack of deer in the north due to many reasons, and the raping that public lands receive from those who don't hunt or have access to private. Humans lack restraint. The rules need to be far stricter than what you're proposing, and that will piss off more than you ever imagined with those two simple rule changes you have in mind. It might take some resolutions that propose earning a deer by killing a coyote, or zero does harvested by anyone, including youth, or eliminating crossbows for any able bodied person, or applying for harvest tags, or one buck per hunter in some units, or more wolves harvested, or public land draws? Either way, you cannot rely on people to use restraint. Too many people complain about deer numbers, yet there they are, trying to fill their tags. You cannot kill what isn't there, and they're not "there" in some places.
I think the focus needs to be where the problem exists. It is not statewide, and it is not with every hunter. Until money isn't the number one driving force, you're up against a wall. The DNR is never going to admit fault. They're never going to admit the numbers are too low. They are never going to eradicate the Wolf or the coyote. They are never going to tell hunters no, you cannot hunt here, or this year. The reason is license sales. This year when numbers fall short for the 9 day, there will be yet another excuse. None of which (like we hunters) will be the fault of bad management practices. Instead it will be things that are intangible. Ultimately, little old me, killed one deer on 960 acres of dirt. It wouldn't matter how I did it, or if I killed 3 more. The resource is plenty here, and my little piece of the pie is a speck of fly shit, when we look at the entire state. We need a purge, and that's a proposal I'm all about! Less equals more! LOL!
I agree that technology is outpacing our resource and there are many examples of it. I'm not sure that weapon mounted rangefinders is really an issue however. They aren't commonly in use for primitive weapons.
The wcc is a dictatorship. A apr resolution was passed last year in the north and would been only for the north. After the wcc meeting this summer they ended the resolution. Same as the xgun voted down many times but they kept bringing it back till they got what they wanted.
Skook, I have been paying attention to equipment used in harvest photos on the Book of Faces and in several instances I seen Xbows with the range finding scopes being used making Xbows a true 100 yard weapon when the scope does everything for you but pull the trigger.
The Garmin range finding bow scope is another. Just seen another the Omega sight that will range it, and film it while you shoot it.
Excalibur also now has a two shot over and under crossbow.
It’s time to reel it in and put the breaks on.
Drop Tine- weren't you the one who often defended the able body man (or woman) shooting crossbows?
I was to a point, I was an advocate for my wife being able to hunt. Now technology has gotten out of hand.
Drop tine, hould have had your wife practice with a vertical. 30lbs is the legal limit. And if she was physically unable to there was a good law in place for her. You know the old saying,,, watch out for what you wish for. Now you and we got it .
I applaud your effort, but it won't go anywhere simply because of the mentality of today's hunter. There all about easy buttons. Even if you got past that, you have the manufacturers that are going to throw a major tizzy...... We live in a time where a scoped in-line muzzleloader is considered a primitive weapon which warrants its own season...Think about that.....That's what your up against... I'm with you but there's going to be about 20 of us standing alone...
What is a primitive weapon now days? A compound bow, with fiber optic sites, drop away rest, peep site, carbon arrows and mechanical release surely isn't.
She shot vertical for years but suffers from a type of tremors and can’t hold a bow steady enough to be accurate. But with the Xbow and a rest she can continue hunting for now.
The question seems to be, What are you willing to give up?
I would welcome some meaningful change even if I had to give up something to improve the experience for all, now I had a great year but also have seen what technology has done to fishing and believe am wise enough to give a little now than to pay the price later.
DT do you mean scopes with laser rangefinder built in or scopes with multiple reticles? Rangefing scopes exist but are very expensive. Most I see are the multiple reticle variety. I'd rather see crossbow laws go back to the way it was. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen.
The APR question is going on the spring hearing questionnaire.
The WCC didn't have anything to do with the crossbow legislation. They opposed it.
Here’s a list, some I’m sure we would all have to give up a few.
-Crossbows need to go into the muzzleloader season.
- no baiting statewide
-no cell cams
-registration needs to change
-limit youth hunt to 1 or 2 years
- less doe tags
- no holiday hunt
- hate to say shorter seasons, would rather do the others first.
Hunting equipment in general is expensive. Leases are outrageous. Do you think a few Hondo’s will slow someone down? How many guys here by a new flagship bow every year as an example? Multi-reticle scopes have been around forever. The range finding scopes that set the dot in place for hold are more recent and hunters will always chase the latest and greatest.
The 216" isn't eligible for the Record Books.
Seeing a deer in realtime via a cell phone camera, then killing the deer that day based on that knowledge is grossly abusing the technology. I think there's a lot of good ideas here, but I think more than anything else, we need
habitat improvement up north at a massive scale on public lands.
Yes, there are miles of swamps for deer to hide. There is no shortage of water. But there is a shortage of food.
Crossbows and crazy tech all put a dent into the herd and we should absolutely fight against stuff that is "too far", but in my eyes the underlying problem in the northwoods is that there aren't enough deer to begin with because the forests are aging and simply don't support the level of deer we'd like. We need the state and national forests to, at some level, be managed for deer.
We can play with tags and season structures all we want (and we should), but if the habitat can't hold enough deer and there are more hunters than deer, nothing short of only primitive weapons is gonna do the trick. Might be my pessimism speaking. I haven't hunted Vilas County very long, but it's painful to here folks talk about "how it used to be". I don't think crossbows or $$$$$ range finding scopes are the reason for the change. The reason for the change is because the makeup of the forests are not what they used to be.
"I will support it also, can we add cell cams to the list, I see 3 states have gone that route already.I see a 216 inches was harvested after a cell pic a few hours before, Shouldn’t be that way."
This is a great point but based on some of the replies in this thread I don't think people understand just how often what you're mentioning happens, and how many bucks are getting killed this way. It happens A LOT. Having cell cams to tell you where and when to hunt in real time some believe trump crossbows that might add 10-20 yards to someone's effective range. (And u ame like gunn.) ANYONE worried about crossbows but on the fence about cell cams either does not understand or does not want to. I have cell cams but don't use them for deer hunting, they are on vehicle access points/property lines to deal with pos trespassers. As a guy who sometimes hunts with a crossbow, plants food plots, has baited in the past when it was legal, rattles, grunts, and has tossed out doe pee, and clearly isn't opposed to "easy buttons", I don't plan on ever using cell cams to deer "hunt" as I would not find that enjoyable whatsoever. I'd rather not know which buck is coming in and exactly when, or which plot to sit for the afternoon based on 24/7 surveillance.
When it comes to limits and resolutions you might want to look into the cell cam thing a little more and toss that in with the crossbow resolution stuff now rather than later. Letting that get out of control (in case it's not already) would be another bad plan.
It sucks because I think they are probably a fun tool when used simply as cameras, but when used as a real-time deer locater.... if that is indeed happening a lot, I would support a ban on them. Some people spoil all the fun.
For what it's worth, I do think "bans" work. I used to think the bait ban did nothing, but after hunting literally just over the border in the UP all season, where baiting is alive and well, I can tell you that the public land there is LITTERED with bait piles compared to public land just over the border in WI. Can't speak to private land, though.
So while there will always be people breaking the rules, there are a lot of people following them, too. At least on public land, where people have a healthy fear of getting caught.
The most telling thing about the 216-inch buck was that despite all the technological advantages, the "hunter" still made a bad shot that required an 18-hour delay in tracking. What other shortcuts did he take, like not enough practice? What a bad look.
Knife2Sharp, Good question...Nowadays a scoped in-line muzzleoader is considered a primitive weapon. We have a special 10 day hunt for those determined soles trying to accomplish the impossible...killing a deer with one. :>) If In-lines constitute primitive, what is the definition?
DT i was honestly just curious? As you know, your wife's situation is different and I believe would have been able to fall under the disability to use a crossbow prior to the state change. I will say I agree with most things, but not all and that is great. Its refreshing to see gentleman acting as such.
I missed the posts about the possible APR restrictions in the northern part of the state. Could someone fill me in? I can't find any info elsewhere. As someone who loves horns, but hunts first and foremost for meat and has no access to WI doe tags..... shooting spikes is my jam. Yikes.
Granted, I also complain about never seeing any bucks. I guess I want to have my cake and eat it, too!
Why should the type of weapon used need to be “primitive” but no other aspect of life should be?
I agree habitat improvement first, ie logging.
Why would you not have access to antlerless tags. Virtually every county has them. Many northern forest counties still have tags available today. Even on public land.
Vilas only gives out a few hundered on public and I think they are the very first to sell out. I don't support having more doe tags here (or any for that matter), but if I drew one I would guiltily and shamefully take a doe somewhere that I don't usually hunt. Even Oneida which gives out more than Vilas sells out instantly.
The only county in northern forest with public doe tags still available is rusk, which is a long ways away.
There's too many people that want to kill deer and not enough deer to kill. The closest thing to "sustainable" is to keep a healthy doe population that pumps out spikes.... which get slaughtered every year. Very far from an ideal situation, but without more deer, I can't think of a different option.
https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/permits/bonusavailability.html
Hilltop this will explain it and it’s very obvious why. It’s either limit equipment or shorten the number of days afield flatten the curve.
Wow I am starting to change my tune on crossbows. Vilas county had 430 crossbow vs 700 gun bucks last year. That ratio is much higher than the state in general.
Those graphs are nuts. As someone who was not hunting at that time, can someone tell me why in in the 2000's we were SLAUGHTERING does in northern counties!!?
Because the populations were higher than they have ever been. The buck harvests were similarly high.
Shook, unless something changed recently the wcc board voted it down by one vote. My son made the resolution ,he was part of the meeting early this fall when it was voted not to support it and have it continue on
DT, Wisconsin had a very law to cover your wife and the let anyone use a xgun in any gun season. Lesser weapon law.
Shook, I believe the apr resolution you are referring to is for Florence co. Only for 3 years .
Drop tine states
“It’s either limit equipment or shorten the number of days afield flatten the curve.”
Best insight I’ve seen here, spot on, but what are we willing to give up for the common good is the question
We have nothing to give up as bow hunters. Xbows have a separate season for a reason.
I hope your optimism is accurate Will, but I worry when there's absolute evidence that proves the crossbow is indeed the real issue (as in no one can deny it), they'll then lump the both as one, and it will in fact punish those using the vertical bow as well.
From: Nocturnal II23-Nov-21Private Reply "DT i was honestly just curious? As you know, your wife's situation is different and I believe would have been able to fall under the disability to use a crossbow prior to the state change"
Under the former crossbow disability permits prior to 2013 Tremor disorders were not a qualifying disability for a crossbow permit
Humorous in a sad way as I sit and listen to some of you coming around full circle.
Old hunter - Thanks for clarifying
Where were you guys when I was telling you so?
Oldhunter, I know of chiropractor in price co. That was giving out slips for people to get a xgun permit by simply saying their shoulder hurt and the price of one appointment. I know we had a discussion about it. GREED.
Thanks old, I’ve tried to explain that several times that we tried for her to get a permit and was turned away without getting one in some of the other Xbow threads. I never expected that so many able bodied would take the easy button.
Equipment restrictions are nothing new to other states and time has come that we need to do the same in WI. I know enough that to get what you want you need to ask for more then settle for less. That way all parties think they have won.
I used to complete the evaluations for crossbow permits. There were many conditions that are named specifically as automatic qualifiers. There were also a list of functional tasks that somebody had to complete during the testing. Even though tremor disorders did not specifically qualify her, the functional tests she completed would have.
I've never used the instant pic option on my cell cams. I have them set at 7 am and 7 pm. I get how they could get used to chase a deer in the moment which seems crazy to me. I'd give them up in a second if it improved the hunt for me and my neighbors.
Any medical professional that was authorized to verify disabilities for a crossbow permit, including chiropractors, with out performing the mandated tests for such disabilities, was engaging in illegal activity and subject to losing their medical licenses. However, I doubt there was ever any enforcement.
I would add that many people knew what they had to do when they came into the office. I believe one "test" was lifting your arm up. If I remember, all you had to do is act like you couldn't lift your arm above your shoulder and that qualified you. Maybe it was two such circumstances. Either way, not very difficult to get the permit back then. I will say that I still didn't see a lot of able bodied people coming in and faking. It was usually older guys and gals or people coming out of surgery. A lot were probably able to vertical bow hunt but it is what it is. If it went back to the old rules I don't think you'd have this influx of 30 year old guys coming in acting like they can't lift their arm just to get a crossbow. I'm sure a couple changes would eliminate a lot of the malingering.
Only group to blame is the hunters shooting the scoped and cocked crossbow. Nobody else matters and is simply a deflection from the real culprits.
I agree MO but there are other technology’s that are contributing as well
It is hunters however, who choose to use technology.
Misery are you still riding a horse for your daily driver?
If we as hunters don’t have the foresight to govern ourselves someone else will and I doubt anyone will like the results of that. I think it would be easier to restrict equipment than to shorten the season for a specific group.
Hunters do NOT have the fore sight, that is my entire point. Please read a bit more before making assumptions. Hunters buy the technology, hunters do the killing, nobody to blame but hunters.
How do you explain xbows having their own season if the was no foresight?
Your repeated rhetoric adds nothing. What’s your solution?
There is no solution, it is too late. Bow and arrow hunting, and the associated culture, will continue to be lost. Over the last decade, I told all of you what the outcome would be, most of you were naysayers. I told you so, live with it now.
Move on then. You have nothing to add here but criticism and I don’t want you posting on this and cluttering it up. It’s never to late and just takes education for people,to,see it.
Nobody listened, I was right all along.
Until hunters/fisherman become mindful that natural resources are not unlimited and become conservationists the spiral will continue
Of course the reality is, there are very few bow and arrow hunters left on this forum. Time to come out of the closet!
"Nobody listened, I was right all along."
Nobody is listening to the concern about cell cams either, but that's likely because they have them and are using them themselves! The rest that don't care and aren't concerned likely will change their tune in about 5 more years when they wake up and realize how many of their bucks are being smoked completely based on cell cam intel. When Missouri is saying I told you so when that day comes, much like now, no one should be surprised. Or upset.
Alwaysright +1 on your last post.
Are you also going to include laser rangefinding sights for vertical bows in your campaign to limit technology?
Amazing what hunting has come to.
Fishing is basically "put and take" these days.
With the rapid advancement of cellular cameras, if anything needs to be done to make them illegal, it must be done immediately. If not, in a short period of time, there will be to much money involved for any legislature to change the rules.
Can't imagine what argument you would use to get rid of cell cams? Possible abuse? That excuse didn't work for call in registration, no tagging requirements, baiting.....Cell cams are now affordable and are a huge part of the market. Pipe dream.....
I had a coworker leave work at 10 AM one day this fall because his cell cam was blowing up. Hot doe was in the area as he had 5 pics of different bucks by 10 Am. He saw 10 additional bucks that afternoon from that stand. He drove 1.5 hours to get to the farm. Cell cams do more harm to this sport than crossbows.
Regardless how many bucks this guy saw, putting a killing shot into one of them is far easier with a crossbow than a vertical bow. If we are talking about what gadget leads to a higher kill rate, there is no comparison between a crossbow that more effectively kills as compared to a camera that lets someone know there is a deer in the area. Do you think those bucks all stood still for 1-1/2 hours, then allowed this mystical hunter to silently and without notice whisk himself into a blind or stand without alerting the waiting deer? Lol!
If your not there you wont kill regardless of weapon. This sport is mostly right place at the right time. Cell cams do just that. If you are running cell cams you are no longer engaging in fair chase.
I have to agree with Liberal.
See both political sides can agree
All I'm saying is with crossbows you can track their effectiveness. Well sort of, minus all the non registered deer. How do you prove the effect of cell cams on success rates?
None of it matters anymore. If the herd numbers fall below objectives opportunity will be decreased, if the numbers become too high, more doe tags will be issued. Real bow and arrow hunting belongs to a select few these days. The rest is meaningless.
And then you have the enforcement issue. There's no way you can keep people from having cell cams on their property. All they have to say is they are placed there for security reasons. You can't pass a law telling people how many they can have or where they can put them. That's the problem with all this tech stuff. Once you allow the door to be opened....
Not sure where any of this will end up, not anything good that's for sure. Electronics have made fishing easier than easy and will affect fish populations and limits except for stream fishing. Deer hunting is bad, worse than ever and getting worse every year (public land). Fish they will try and protect, deer, not so much anymore. Too much technology, greed and easy button approach happening to deer hunting to have a huntable population. MN saw this when they put the gun season during the rut, now WI has it with the xgun during the rut. A public land doe tag is worth multiple doe/fawns in a season to some people (greed) with the registration nowadays. I try not to be doom and gloom but it is not good. That 360 deg side imaging for fishing will hurt bad if in the hands of people who will keep all the legal fish they catch. Too many people fishing for the lakes to handle it. Poor management by DNR also has an affect as seen on the lake our cabin is on. 15 years ago there was no stocking of walleye, 100% natural. Now, they have to stock to maintain the loss of natural.
Be easy to go back to the early 1970s equipment, fingers on the string, no scopes on muzzleloaders and woodcraft as ones denominator to hunting skills, but the genie is out of the bottle by the general hunting public for easement in technology for killing. What blood sport has advance in great leaps than bowhunting, granted fishing is a high technology sport also. The greedy so-call outdoor sportsmen has been the worst bunch for situation we are in.
Liv, The delusion doesn't stop with hunting. A guy pulls up to a northern WI lake with a 21 foot Ranger, 300 hp outboard, down imaging, side imaging, live scope, smart trolling motor, GPS mapping and will sit at the landing and complain about spearing...lol! The only reason that anglers are pissed about spearing is because they can't do it. If they made spearing legal for everyone, the landings would be so full the Indians wouldn't be able to get near them...Let the word get out that the panfish are spawning.....and take cover from the stampede!!!! Funny how it's socially acceptable to rape the rivers in spring when the walleyes are running.....Bumper boats below every dam.... For some reason all the shoreline development and the habitat destruction that accompanies it is perfectly fine. Jet skies, ski boats, wake boats all eroding shorelines and silting everything over....Endless fishing tournaments for money..... Our population is greedy and full of shit to put it mildly. It's all coming to a head. Pull up a chair... the blame game is about to go into high gear....
Jjs, spot on! Technology is designed to offer us the advantage. That doesn't mean gluttony should be the end result. Technology gets the blame, but people are the ones using it the wrong way. Ultimately we all want to be successful, and that simply cannot be the case to allow a resource to continue. It is simply the facts, not everyone is meant to kill a deer every year. Because of technology, we are certainly more successful now, than ever before. It's also very difficult to blame everyone who is successful, because many have different land access in many parts of the state, that holds far higher numbers, yet pass on so many. I'm a technology dude, but I don't rape the resource. Humans as a whole are just not that way however. Although private landowners or private land hunters get a bad rap by so many other people, I feel they manage the herd far greater than anyone else does (as a whole). Public land is at the mercy of everyone with the same agenda, although many different methods to achieve this.
Pete and jjs have the proper perspective.
Agree sort of with Pete except the fact of technology has made the recreational private landowner able to be successful,hence the so called management of the deer. Most around my area were never much interested in deer except for the big gang bang drives during the gun season, then back to what other interests they had. Technology made them instant biologists and able to manipulate or as you say "manage" THEIR deer, there a big part of the problem and changing attitudes about deer hunting as a whole, not jealous of the private land owner just my opinion of how a good thing has gone bad and will worsen with greed and wanting it easier all the time.Not much future for aspiring hunter that doesn't come from landowning family. It's a two tier system in deer hunting today and probably forever.
Steve, I agree with you on the aspect about land access, and that blame might be more about the term lease. As soon as a farmer learned their wooded acreage they couldn't farm, was worth something, they were certainly a quick study. Private land access was far easier to attain in years past. I won't apologize for being lucky, but I do feel bad for the guys who are sharing the endless public land with so many self centered people. Now as far as managing "their" deer, that term might apply to some real selfish people, but most people know the land is theirs, and the game is free to come and go. Now mind you, the farm I hunt doesn't farm for deer. It farms for dairy. That doesn't mean it doesn't have food plots. Hell, I hunted a 140 acre deer magnet that was alfalfa to make hay. It doesn't mean there isn't thermal cover, because there is a 40 acre juniper patch that offers very little return to the farmer. It doesn't mean there isn't water, because there is a pond. Managing deer or farming deer is not cheap, and while people (who aren't jealous) may frown upon it, there are those who are. Fact is, those who do farm for deer, are spending or giving more to the resource than most people who simply buy a tag do. So for those that get upset because their land holds the deer, well duh! Deer are all about food, water, shelter, and less pressure, and just like the buffalo that was slaughtered in the past, one day perhaps, we will be thanking those people who through nothing more than owning private property, save the resource from man who is obviously indulgent and lacks restraint. I don't own the land I hunt here. I wish I did, but 8k an acre is an unachievable endeavor for me, and most hard working people I know. Jealous? You bet your ass I am. In 1989, 80 acres in Sawyer county was $7200. Now at today's price, it would cost much more than that, but even at $7200, that's a big investment to hunt bear! Now wonder why someone might pay to lease some deer property? They won't pay taxes, you're not locked in on a piece of property, and overall, it's much cheaper. Can I blame them? No. I can either hunt public, buy my own, or lease some myself.....or complain about how they are ruining the opportunities for others. Never an easy answer to a tough dilemma, because just like here on bowsite, not one single person agrees with another person about everything. We unfortunately obsess or confuse a disagreement with someone as hate, and as polarized as we are today, that has also gotten worse through the years. It is a two tiered system, and that has never changed, as it always has been that way. The opportunity is there, but hard work and sacrifice is part of that equation, and most aren't as determined as the upper tiered people tend to be. Be good!
It all started with the so- called qdma and has never stopped spiraling downward, and the genie is out of the bottle and it would take serious cutbacks by all to ever get it back, good luck with that.
“It is a two tiered system, and that has never changed, as it always has been that way. The opportunity is there, but hard work and sacrifice is part of that equation, and most aren't as determined as the upper tiered people tend to be.”
Even though I have been blessed, I have never looked down on folks that maybe don’t have as much, hunting isn’t about wealth and we need all to work towards a common goal together.
Hard work and sacrifice seems to be common denominators among those who have.
True But I don’t look down to them.
What does what a person has, have to do with hunting?
Add inheritance to the common denominators also. Regardless of the math. most wouldn't bother if it wasn't for advancement of the technology. Especially so when it comes to what used to be archery/bowhunting. The private land folks can and will do as they please, need to have different rules in play for public land. Thats my concern and issue with the special seasons, equipment etc. No one benefits from a decent hunting experience when its managed the same as private. I don't look down or up to any group or segment but rather look straight on based on experiences.
"Managing deer or farming deer is not cheap, and while people (who aren't jealous) may frown upon it, there are those who are. Fact is, those who do farm for deer, are spending or giving more to the resource than most people who simply buy a tag do. So for those that get upset because their land holds the deer, well duh! Deer are all about food, water, shelter, and less pressure, and just like the buffalo that was slaughtered in the past, one day perhaps, we will be thanking those people who through nothing more than owning private property, save the resource from man who is obviously indulgent and lacks restraint. "
Damn man, ya hit a homer with that. +1 million.
Steve, I don't think anyone with half a brain would contest that public land versus private land should be managed differently, but we inherently "lump" people, places, and things too regularly, and having so many variables to manage, from an already thinned workforce (WDNR), is an almost impossible task. Remember, everyone has an opinion, a reason, a blame, a cause, and an effect. Most of the time, it lacks science, but instead derived from angst. An awful lot of variables amongst hunters in a state full of people with uber-strong personalities and opinions.
They separated public and private land doe tags.. I'm not sure what else you could realistically do? A bunch of different rules would cause enforcement challenges and we all know there isn't enough enforcement the way it stands. Like it or not, if you want quality deer hunting, you need a wallet. The good old days of public land deer hunting is long gone. I don't see it being fixable given the world we now live in. Like I said, all this stuff is coming to a head.....
I'm a broken record here, but what we really need is habitat improvement on the public land, at least in the northern part of the state. I'm tallking Nicolet/Cequamegon NF, American Legion State Forest, etc..... A big problem with getting this done is that the public land isn't exclusively for deer hunters. It's for hikers, campers, grouse hunters, utv people, snowmobile clubs, bird watchers, the occasional meth head I catch on trail cam, etc.... So I just don't think the will or effort is there to improve the habitat in any meaningful way on large tracts of public land. There's also more red tape and diffierent organizations with the federal land. Logging, for example, actually MAKES money.... so why can't we get some more of that!
I really think improving the public habitat (logging, etc) to support more deer would go a lot further than tweaking tags, rules and seasons (which we should still absolutely 100% do). It feels like tweaking the rules is treating the symptom, not the cause. The cause is that the land does not hold a lot of deer.
You can see this on some smaller tracts of public land that are managed by counties or other entities. There is a fair amount of selective cutting, clearcutting, etc.... and guess what? Often there are more deer in these places compared to just jumping into the mature hardwood stands of the national forests and state forests.
If I was to propose one rule though, it would be that crossbows are legal during archery season, but they burn your firearm tag. I feel like that's a super fair compromise. You don't get to take a buck with a crossbow and another with a rifle (without a medical exemption).
As a final word - I don't think we should abandon things because of lack of enforcement. I hunt the UP/WI border and can see first hand that baiting is RAMPANT in MI public (legal) but not WI public (illegal but not enforced and penalties are a joke anyways). Yes, I find no shortage of bait piles on WI public (but I wouldn't describe it as "rampant"), and yeah, I can see the obvious tracks in the snow leading to bait piles on private land bordering the public..... but even so, there are less bait piles on WI public where it is illegal compared to MI where it is legal. And even though enforcement is not realistic with the allocated resources, just having the rule in place does make some difference.
Vilas, the deer pop. is down to a point that increases in logging aren't going to bring it back . Throw in antlerless quotas and wolves the situation gets hopeless. I hunt in the Flambeau River S.F., they have been pulp and hardwood cutting aggressively for over 10 years and it has had minimal effect on the deer herd. Back in the day logging did help bring back the deer, but that was before wolves and liberal antlerless permits.
Tomas, that is a bummer to hear. I only really pay attention to Vilas County doe tags and thankfully those have been limited the last two years, but not without a fight. The CDAC wanted to give out a ton more doe tags, but the NRB overruled then and drew a ton of ire.
They should not be handing out any doe tags up north.
One of the most frustrating things I ever heard was the lady who represents Vilas county HUNTERS in CDAC. She was vehemently arguing we need MORE doe tags to make the deer hunting better. My head almost exploded. This was the lady on the council that is supposed to represent hunters. Can you imagine?
I personally think (just speculating) that wolves are getting more than fair share of the blame. They are an easy target, but we've had coyotes, bobcats and bears for a long while now, so predation is nothing new. Granted I'm sure wolves take a ton of deer, but many of those are sick or young. Although we all know the claimed wolf population numbers are bananas. Tracks in the snow don't lie.
Hunters shooting a doe takes out that doe. Leaves her current fawns vulnerable to the wolves/coyotes and kills any chance of her having next years fawns. Those fawns are also gonna have a tough time finding food alone in the winter or getting to a wintering yard/habitat if the winter is rough. That's up to five potential deer dead from one doe tag.
And if that doe wasn't shot? Well perhaps her fawns would of had fawns. And those fawns would of had fawns. And those fawn's fawn's would of had fawns. That's a lot of potential deer lost due to killing one doe.
To call myself out, I have been chasing does in the UP when I know I shouldn't be. What does that say? Hunters aren't gonna self-limit. I'll probably never hunt the areas I'm taking does in right now again. I'm driving an hour to get there when I have 100,000s of acres of public land closer. I am certainly selfish in doing so, as it's someone else's backyard I'm depopulating and you bet your ass I feel guilty. My point is that if there are doe tags, people will use them.
Yup, I agree pretty much a done deal about good hunting on public. Just offering my take and ideas. Glad I had the desire for hunting way back before all this came to be, sad for some of us that have "been"to see it all pretty much come to an end. The European way of hunting has now become the accepted norm.
Steve, what is the European way of hunting?
Something like the top 1% of the population can afford to hunt. There's virtually no public land....
I think it would be an easy sell right now for a one buck tag per season, you choose what season you want to hunt and when you’re done you license is done and you get the heck out of the woods. I’ve heard as much private landowners whining as public, now is the time to all chip in and do what needs to be done.
Retro
I read a book along time ago like 30-40 years ago that predicted that in the future, maybe it’s close.
"I think it would be an easy sell right now for a one buck tag per season, you choose what season you want to hunt and when you’re done you license is done and you get the heck out of the woods."
Although I do not like the idea of 1 buck tag per season (because I'm a greedy hunter that wants to shoot one buck with a bow and one with a gun) being the concern of the few loudest seems to be too many bucks being harvested, your 1 buck tag idea sounds like a great compromise, and would definitely address that concern, almost a silver bullet of sorts. I think that if the whining gets loud enough that someone listens and actually believes there is a valid concern (very unlikely IMO but it's fun to dream) a lot more would be changed than shortening a season for 1 user group but not others. But I'm sure the handful of folks that do most of the whining have thought this through already.
Shorten the season for the user group that is causing the problem. Easy peazy, even a crossbow hunter could figure it out.
When parents share kill photos of their 8 year old children with their 2nd deer ever because of a crossbow. It irks me pretty badly. I want to praise the child but I just can't. The season needs to fall in line with Rifles and muzzleloaders. Its far too easy to kill a deer.
Nocturnal ll I agree. Change has to come and soon, as mentioned above shorten season or place it in the gun season as you stated. Good that some folks are seeing the problem and we need to express this strongly and contact those who can change or amend the rules.If enough do this a change could be possible in the future hopefully.
I’ve seen that also. Young kids knocking down giants with no understanding of what they did or accomplished. They just know daddy is really happy. LOL
Good luck trying to shorten the season on what is now the largest group of archery hunters.
It would be better for all to take concessions now than what lies down the road in the future if you continually want to be divided.
One buck a year any weapon would also take a little pressure off of the herd.
12 years old is PLENTY early for a kid to be carrying a weapon. If your child goes out and kills a big game animal and comes home and watches SpongeBob SquarePants, maybe that's a sign to hold off on the big game hunting a bit.....
10-20% of the population hunt and the vast majority of people that don't have zero interest in it. There's millions of acres in WI that are open to public hunting and there is good public hunting within an hour of anywhere in the state.
Now if the state would manage the public areas that would be awesome. LOL some of them might as well be parking lots.
Skook, good hunting as far as game goes whitetails? If so you couldn’t be more wrong, there are areas that don’t even hold deer anymore, I’m talking northern bayfield county
The only true part of that statement is Wisc has alot of public land. Quality whitetail hunting? Lol......
Yes, WI has a lot of great public land, a great deer herd that was exiting to hunt with some great animals to hunt. A culmination of events has ended this, very sad indeed. I always said the only out of state hunts I would go on were for game we didn't have because of the deer hunting we had here. Now because of greed, wolves and xguns for all during the rut, these animals on public land are so depleted that it isn't a viable hunt anymore. Many miles traveled this year in 4 different counties and only saw 1 2-1/2 year old 8 point and 1 spot that held a buck with 3" dia trees rubbed. Just aggravating to say the least. Again, glad I got to hunt the 70's and 80's when hunting was good but unhappy to know what it was and can be. Lake fishing in WI is no different.
Having hunted the north from early 70’s through the mid 90’s, I was very fortunate to have a buddy invite me to his property in Crawford county. From there we moved to Richland where we still hunt today. While I miss hunting the big woods, I am thoroughly enjoying hunting the farmlands. Particularly when I hear of how decimated the north has become. I don’t think there is an easy answer as “public” land is comprised of state, federal and county lands, all managed to different standards by differing agencies. The only hope of a comprehensive deer management plan has to come from the state and to date, that has been handled on a one size fits all basis. Add in CDAC’s that could be beneficial but like everything else, have been compromised by politics. A sad state of affairs with no apparent fix in sight.
Pretty simply fix. Other states with Crossbow issues have done it .
1 Buck per year .
No offense, but I'm not fond of one answer fits all, like the one buck per state idea. I don't want that to make me sound greedy, but this problem of lack of bucks or deer sightings, is not statewide. I've had 27 different bucks on camera or seen with my own two eyes this year. I run my three cameras on 360 acreas. Again, a speck of fly shit compared to the state, but that should tell you that not all of the land is ruined. We have 80 acres of private property in Sawyer county. Have not hunted it in 12 years. Why? Because that area that was once healthy deer property has gone to shit. Ironically long before crossbow full inclusion. You want a bear, bobcat, or wolf, you have excellent hunting. Deer have been in trouble and declining there for many years, and the exact reason I haven't hunted it one time in 12 years. That's how I can say I understand how bad and good it can be. While this area held almost no deer in the 80's, it was the opposite up north. That's why people traveled there after all. Well, the place to hunt now, is farmland, and I get it, you don't want to leave and you don't want to travel. Well, I had to drive 4.5 hours to hunt there, and 2.5 hours to hunt central Wisconsin. Now I drive 2 minutes. The point is, you cannot simply lump the entire state as one secular place, based on how good or bad you have it where you keep stubbornly choosing to hunt, based off its vast wilderness. No doubt it's pretty country, but it has it shortfalls, and if we are really going to pick ways of solving the issue, I'll suggest the people up North make a sacrifice instead, and we close deer hunting up there for 3 full years in the upper tier of the state. I'm being a bit facetious, but the point is, it is everything and every hunter (including the vertical archer) making an impact on the resource. It needs a healthy break from all predation, including human animals. I promise the resource will grow. The common denominator about places where deer flourish, is the land tends to be private, and the people hunting it are not gluttonous. Yeah, they might not share their land, but they most certainly grow and conserve the resource. So what am I saying? Adjust! Find a different place in the state to go. The simple fact is, the people here on bowsite who are seeing the real problem are in fact hunting that vast empty space known as the north woods. It needs a break, and I shouldn't need to be held accountable for a microcosm of the state that truly has the real problem. But I also believe the crossbow in all its effectiveness and having the long season during the time when deer are most vulnerable, is in fact where an adjustment statewide truly needs to happen.
Can't get away from these guys
There is no way to micro manage the state, it will be all for one and one for all if it goes to one buck per season, can’t even imagine the added pressure to one or the other if it’s different
Call in registration with no tagging, and a dismal warden force ensures it doesn't matter what the rules are. The free for all will continue.
Minnesota is a 1 buck state but you can party hunt. Local guide in Grand Marais area said he has never seen the whitetail population so low
Pete, I ponder what impact no hunting vs just no doe hunting does to the population. My uneducated guess is no hunting vs just no does is not a huge difference in the end population of total deer. Obviously would result in more bucks, though. But my feeling is that they'd just get slaughtered the year that hunting opened back up. I could be wrong, though.
I wonder how much you can stockpile or grow the herd up north. I really don't know. One really bad winter + predation and those stockpiled deer are gone, maybe (?). Just some musings. I'm really just talking out of my butt.
I agree with your sentiment that sometimes you have to move on from a place and find somewhere else to hunt. This next couple weeks is the time to do it. With some snow on the ground and deer not yet relocating from their fall areas, now is the time to look for tracks, or lack of tracks. Deer might not be in the EXACT location come next October, but if you see a lot of deer sign in area in the next few weeks, chances are it will hold deer next season. At least that has been my experience.
Even in places without much deer, there are almost always pockets of at least SOME deer. I have walked sunup to sundown and find no deer tracks for hours, and then all of a sudden, one swamp, which doesn't look much different from the 10 other I scouted that day, will hold deer.
You only get one archery buck tag, so you don't need a TON of deer to tag out. If you're happy killing spikes, find the pockets of deer, even if you just pinpoint does, there will often be some spikes walking around come next year. Probably some big boys there, too, but they got big for a reason.
Finding and hunting a new spot takes an intense amount of boots to the ground scouting , but it can be very rewarding. At the very least, you get some excercise. There is no better time to find these spots than with early snow falls. Another note is that a few bait piles can ruin your fun. Find some deer in December? Well if someone is baiting hard next season, those deer will move. But the bait piles don't show up for a bit, so you at least have the early season.
1 buck a year in Wisconsin just means all the low life lawbreakers will go back to buying tags for uncle Joe, grandma Lucielle, cousin Eddie, the neighbors newborn baby, etc...
Retro
Exactly what the state wants, more license sales, more revenue.
So the northern forest harvest is up 9% and southern farmland is down 20%, and we have a suggestion to close the north for 3 years? , do you want every deer south of hwy 29 eliminated? It’s an all or none deal
How about close it to all non residents?
How about stop giving out antlerless permits along with one buck tag only.
No cell cams???
Crossbows to muzzleloader season
There would have to be a lot of low life lawbreakers to make a significant difference. Are that many hunters low life lawbreakers?
I don't think they would never go one buck a year as an attempt to increase revenue. No amount of uncle joes and little tommy's buying tags would ever make up for all the people that are now buying one license instead of two.'
I wonder how much money in sales they make in state vs out of state. In state is what, like $25 for each buck and out of state is something like $150+?
I personally would have no problem with in state tag costs going up if that money went to good use. Big if.
We need to raise out of state fee’s before even thinking of raising resident fee’s. What OS hunters pay here is a joke in comparison to neighboring states in the Midwest.
Yes, good idea to raise the fee, while we are at it, raise everything... non-resident taxes for cabin & landowners, big game, small game, fishing licenses etc
It will be fascinating to see what the WI DNR does to address the problems that posters on the Wisconsin Bowsite Forum have enumerated. I doubt the DNR is capable of making the appropriate decisions. Deer hunting will become an exercise in overcoming DNR mismanagement, human hunting pressure, and wolf and coyote predation. Those will be some interesting hunting seasons.
The out of state license is definitely a bargain compared to other states.
Cams of any kind in season is not fair chase. Period.
It's a good question. How many hunters are low life law breakers? Also why do hunters need to be convinced that extreme fair chase is better ? No begging for each hunter to hunt fair . It should be a run to "fair chase " Without this your just a game manger and sucker for everything the Industry invents .
If our out of state fees are less than neighboring states (I haven't actually checked), I think they should be raised to be in line with other states. Granted I don't think we can charge what Iowa does.
IL, is right behind Iowa.
Wow, then we should jack up those prices. There is virtually no public deer hunting land in Illinois. There's the Shawnee NF down in southern IL but that's basically it (as far as I'm aware, at least), and I hear that gets hit pretty hard and the hunting isn't great.
There is a good amount of high quality deer hunting in IL. It is largely on private land but is fair chase. The outfitting business for whitetails is alive and well in IL.
I have mentioned many times over the years I feel Wisconsin license fees are too cheap, especially for non residents.
I have mentioned many times over the years I feel Wisconsin license fees are too cheap, especially for non residents.
Boy I am hearing a lot of folks figuring out out to optimize the call cam. Having cell cams go off and being able to reposition for a shot were the cam is.
This will spread quickly, are we gonna let this take the crossbow route?
They need to go.
Well Capt if you use one you know the advantages.
Sounds like MJF uses cell cams also, I don’t but I’m open to listen on why they are ethical. I can definitely see why they are fun, but I also can see how they are an aid like the crossbow to the success rate.
I’m not alone on this one, we can have a good clean debate on this one.
If you would have payed attention in the Cellular Camera thread you would have known I use cameras & cell cameras, so tell me why they are unethical after all these years being on the market and probably my guess is 95% hunters use them or have used them. You spread your poison very well on bowsite.
Technology is outpacing our resource, who is going to compromise to even the playing field, I think we all need to, but it will take serious effort by all.
Will never happen, will get worse.
Tell me why they are fair chase ?
Depends on how they are used. Is anything we abuse today really fair chase?
So tell me why it’s unethical to use trail cameras.
Well MJ You seem like a seasoned hunter, it’s an easy answer that I could list, but if you ponder why you use them it will give you your answer.
MJF, it is not unethical. Just because a camera shows a picture of a deer means virtually nothing, other than that deer walked past the camera. Cameras do not shoot, lasso, rope or otherwise corral or hold deer. You called it poison, I view it much more like oral excrement.
Although not necessary, I do not see them as unethical ( whatever unethical means these days )
Although not necessary, I do not see them as unethical ( whatever unethical means these days ).
How about 2 way radios? How bout GPS tracking devices for dog hunting? How about electronic callers?
MO, they are not necessary. But, they add another dimension and way to enjoy the outdoors. If anything, the pictures of a few really nice bucks I get in a season have saved the lives of many other bucks.
“If anything, the pictures of a few really nice bucks I get in a season have saved the lives of many other buck”
You need a picture for that???
"Depends on how they are used. Is anything we abuse today really fair chase?"
Depends on how they're used? So if a guy has 2 cell cams out near 2 of his hunting spots and one cam is showing him tons of activity or a hot doe in the area or a nice buck bedded nearby and the other cam shows almost no activity, if he hunts the location that has no activity possibly that's fair chase yet if he hunts the location that has tons of activity then it's not fair chase? I'm sure that's happening a lot, as often as a guy scouting (boots on the ground) chooses to hunt the locations where he sees almost no sign compared to a location that has good sign.
I wonder if that same logic transfers over to crossbows for the haters, if a crossbow user keeps his shots under 40 yards it's fair chase yet if he shoots over 40 it's not? Apparently the capabilities of the equipment doesn't matter, only how it's used.
Wireless cell cams used during hunting season for deer hunting seems a lot like using a drone, which I believe is illegal.
I'm pretty sure most folks out there aren't buying what the crossbow haters are trying to sell, but I guess all that matters is if the DNR believes the bs and agrees that the vertical guys are running out of bucks to shoot and that it's not fair that the neighbor shot a buck with a crossbow. Good luck with that.
Many property owners use cameras for the purpose of monitoring trespassing by humans, not as a direct aid to hunting. Same with drones. IMO, trail cams should be not be allowed on public lands.
Hi Guys - I've traveled through your state, but, never hunted it. I'd concur with you that your NR fees could be raised by $100, if not doubled. Many states in the NE, Mid West could stand to generate more revenues by raising NR fees due to supply/demand. On camera questions - I just spoke to a game warden I know yesterday who told me about issues with disagreements about guys using cameras and putting tree stands/ground blinds on public lands and laying claim to these spots. Issues are arising when someone sets up in a spot and then the hunter comes and climbs into stand when the first guy was already there and they may be 10 yards apart. It's not illegal, but, has lead to shouting matches/fights. This is the reason, he said, they've considered not allowing fixed or ladder stands and blinds on public land - guys put out multiple stands and then think it's "their" spot. Said cameras seem to congregate guys to certain spots along with issues of theft of camera, cards, vandalism. He doesn't know what the answer is, but, it's disappointing that some people have no respect...
Selfnamedhunterrrr, distance has nothing to do with it. Holding a pre-loaded, scoped crossbow with the only movement needed to fire it being a slight movement of a finger has everything to do with it. But, I don’t need to tell you that. As a supporter and user of the easy button, you already know that.
Exactly Capt, my complaint about distance is finding the deer if hit and to a lesser amount the ease of taking a longer than normal archery shot. The main advantage is you have no movement and it is shot like what???? a gun. You all know why you choose a xgun to a bow, it is easier!!! Now we are losing our adult buck population because they are hunted with a gun during the rut. Deer herds in states like WI, MN, MI can't handle that with the amount of land and the amount of hunters.
We use a multitude of gadgets to make it easier to kill a deer, you gonna get rid of them all???
Wisconsin is in for a rude awakening and regulations that will be hard for most to stomach and it won’t favor real archery.
"I just spoke to a game warden I know yesterday who told me about issues with disagreements about guys using cameras and putting tree stands/ground blinds on public lands and laying claim to these spots. Issues are arising when someone sets up in a spot and then the hunter comes and climbs into stand when the first guy was already there and they may be 10 yards apart. It's not illegal, but, has lead to shouting matches/fights. This is the reason, he said, they've considered not allowing fixed or ladder stands and blinds on public land - guys put out multiple stands and then think it's "their" spot. Said cameras seem to congregate guys to certain spots along with issues of theft of camera, cards, vandalism. He doesn't know what the answer is, but, it's disappointing that some people have no respect..." This type of behavior has been going on for years now, nothing new!
"This type of behavior has been going on for years now, nothing new!" That is for sure! The biggest cause was and probably still is, a bait pile.
Add a bait pile and a picture of a large buck and that only adds to it, not to mention neighbors.
I'll cross my fingers for you guys that the crossbow season is shortened and the neighbors quit killing your big bucks. I wonder if the DNR agrees that people are or are going to run out of bucks due to crossbows. Has anyone asked them?
What can I do to help make some changes with the duration to the xbow season? I see some really great and wise insight on here but I do not know where to start.
“Has anybody asked them?” Lol! Only a real fool would ask that question of the same agency that issues hundreds, if not thousands of antlerless permits for areas that have no deer. I am now starting to see some common traits among crossbow users.
Be careful what you wish for, a shortened crossbow season that is anytime before the 9 day would be a disaster, needs to be with muzzleloader.
Good Story for you xgunners to read:
So, I've had quite the last 3 1/2 yrs. In August 2018 developed some nerve damage to my right shoulder, upper back, arm and hand. Neurologists can't explain why. Two weeks later my right index finger curled up tight and my right thumb bent at 90 degrees. I could not even begin to draw my Bow because of pain. I thot initially that I had done something at work while moving some heavy shelves around. To make a long story shorter, I filed a Workman's Compensation Claim just so I could get faster treatment and physio. I never missed any work other than Doctor appointments. By end of November that year WCB rejected my claim of work related injury. Two days later I was called in to HR and terminated.
We ended up selling our acreage and moving south so my wife could deal w her mother who was in a nursing home.
Spring of 2019 I was able to get into a hand clinic with the local hospital to eventually straighten my thumb and finger and thru lots of physio get some dexterity back.
I was able to teach myself to shoot left handed that summer and draw 47#. Last week of the season I managed to kill a yearling 3x3 whitetail.
In 2020 I was able to increase my range of accuracy. I was able to harvest a decent 3yr old Bull Moose.
End of March 2021 I hiked up w a friend to pull a stand to pull a Elk stand on a wallow that was just not practical to get to. I ended up slipping on some snow covered ice and landed hard on my bad shoulder under a metal pack frame. I felt something pop and instant extreme pain. My buddy helped me up and I ended up in the hospital where x-rays didn't show much other than no broken bones. A month later I finally had an ultrasound which revealed two torn tendons w one complete. In May I was able to get a cortisone shot in the shoulder which started working after two weeks.
Then I started looking into learning to draw and shoot with some kind of mouth tab. I knew it had been done. I found what I needed w Jeff Fabry on YouTube. With the help of the local in door range I was able to come up w a system that eventually worked for me.
My accuracy improved so much that I could put every arrow in a 3" bull at 10 yds. In July at a trad only shoot I beat out 15 other guys in a baby bottle liner water seesaw novelty shoot and won $50 pot. Ha
This past Thursday it came together w this nice doe from a tree stand in a small drainage funnel going towards a hayfield. After we found her it felt like my first bow kill all over again.
I used Bear TD B mag risers. I have matching Left and Right hand and a half dozen limbs. Old Pariot carbons w Cutthroat Broadheads. I currently pull 40# @26" and got a complete passthru.
I'm currently waiting for two surgeries. So far over a year for tendon transfer to my right thumb from my index finger to give me more dexterity. Also for tendon repair. I might be selling my truck and going with private clinic to get the shoulder done as the wait is unreasonable because of Civid BS.
Thanks for looking and never give up!
Live, quite an ordeal! Kudos to you for having the will and desire to get back to what you believe in. An awesome story that will ring hollow with many. I respect you and wish you the best.
For all who read the above, this was not me, it was someone else on the leatherwall. Sorry, should have made that clear. It just shows there is more to life than just hitting the easy button for your goal.
Live2Hunt, I have hunted with "Gun" thats his name in the past when he lived in the States. Yep for all the complaining and rationalization that goes on about why a person needs to shoot crossbows on and on he is the real deal when it comes to bowhunting. Have a set of limbs coming also from him soon. Hope they have good "mojo". Ruptured non repaired bicep tendon in right arm and nothing as bad as what Gun has been through but still hunting with recurves in the 42-47lbs range, its all doable if one has either the desire and applies the effort to do. No sights /releases ,scopes etc,no excuses's. Thanks for posting Gun's story Live2Hunt.
Quite an inspiration for sure Steve.
I'd rather shoot left handed than use a crossbow, but honestly if things were real bad, I'd rather use a crossbow than not hunt at all. I believe that most vertical archers feel the same way? Sure, you can be so stubborn you quit altogether, but most of us still love venison, we still love the chase, and to be honest the end goal which is the kill. You can pick up a camera and not choose the crossbow, but for able bodied people, the bow is far more rewarding. Be honest with yourselves. Would you rather shoot a 140 inch deer with your bow, or a 170 inch with your gun. I myself have made the distinction, and the gun is rather anticlimactic. Personally, I partake, but normally it's to simply put a deer in the freezer, and less about hunting. Now yes, I have clearly taken offense to the pissing and moaning about the weapon, but that is because it does very little towards making change, and we lost our opportunity when we initially opposed it. Fact is, we were up against higher numbers with greater influence. That doesn't mean I was ever pro crossbow. I voted against full inclusion as well, it just means that unless someone can terminate what's already happened, and perhaps with some luck or hard work they do, bitching about it on a silly forum does no good. If someone has the time and effort to lead a campaign to bring that voice to the table, I'll be your biggest proponent, but asking for tidbit changes instead, does about nothing. It will take a serious season change, and nothing more, to get the impact we would want to see. Again, we are up against numbers that are proving to grow, especially looking at the overall harvest numbers. So all said, it's also proven that more people would "rather kill a 170 with a gun, than a 140 with a bow", and because this forum is mostly comprised of bow hunters, we have a hard time fathoming that.
great story of perseverance. What an inspiration. Something I need to remind myself when I am not counting my blessings. Thanks for sharing and congrats! And Pete - I feel the same as you, but, wonder if I could shoot left handed? I used to be able to bat lefty ok in baseball, but, when I try to throw or even write left handed it's so bad it's pitiful - but love guys that overcome some of these huge obstacles and not feeling sorry for themselves - when they have so many reasons to!! Bravo
"Now yes, I have clearly taken offense to the pissing and moaning about the weapon, but that is because it does very little towards making change..." These things often happen from a grassroots effort. It just might be a little pissing and moaning that motivates someone to take the ball and run.
I think you would be surprised who and how many look at this site and others!!!! Or should we just roll over and say thank you so there is no resistance? Not.
No, L2H, I don't believe in lying down, but let's be honest, who's really leading a campaign of resistance? I'm not going to pretend it's me, but who is? If bitching the loudest had any impact, then I certainly know who's winning, and who's whining lol. I'm expecting that leadership to come from Bowsite's top 5, but shit, we bowsiters can't agree on too much as it is, so unity is always a challenge. Then you have people like the village idiot being the village idiot, so there's an example of some of the resistance we'd have to try and tolerate.
LOL Pete, I get it. I know I stood up at a CDAC or what ever meeting and had people nodding in agreement with me as I went on about Xguns and the need to shorten the season. But, I was the only one to stand up and say anything. Honestly to me, it should start at WBH.
Live2Hunt X2!!!! Keep fighting better than than the alternative that we have unfortunately even here in larger numbers than one would expect.
100% it should be WBH, and look who they're up against. The NRA. It's tough fighting numbers and money.
Didn't Wisconsin have about 200,000 bowhunters back before the circus? And didn't WBH membership top out at around 7,000 +members? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. That tells me one of two things. Either bowhunters never thought there was a threat to the season, or they simply didn't care? Today I'm more of the belief it was the latter. Truth be told though, I'm not sure even overwhelming unity among bowhunters would have changed the outcome. The tag team of money and greed are undefeated in this country....
Most here have already thrown ethics out the window, might as well join the crossbow crowd
Retro, hunters in general are a very apathetic group. Not willing to spend either the time or the money to do anything to safeguard their sport.
They confuse the right to hunt, with a constitutional right. They have the right to hunt, only if voters vote them the right to a hunting season. False sense of security. Hunting seasons are in a sense a privilege, and can be taken away by the voters at any time.
Capt, true... I'm only running across two kinds of participants anymore. The first group are the guys that are head over heels in the race for how big and how many... The most shoulder mounts wins.... and they are interested in any gadget or technology to give them an edge. The second group are the pure meat hunters. They welcome all gadgets and technology that will make filling the freezer easier... What I would call a "bowhunter" , someone who enjoys limiting his equipments effectiveness to allow for the enjoyment of a longer season... they are pretty much non existent anymore. Go figure...
Bow hunters are definitely a dying breed. They have been replaced by killers whose only objective is to make a Facebook post, blowing smoke up their own asses.
Some have made improvements that the state/industry has made available the rest have been left behind to whine, but yet they will do nothing about it and wait for a miracle separate crossbow season to change on its own, but those same whiners have no problem toting a firearm around for 9 days.
Always, get off your stupid 9 day gun season. It is the worst time of the year to hunt deer, not the best time as it is with your guns. I would not be caught dead toting one of those ugly stupid looking things (xgun) through the woods.
Bow and arrow hunting, and the associated culture will continue to decline in Wisconsin. How right I have been!
Bow and arrow hunting, and the associated culture will continue to decline in Wisconsin. How right I have been!
Crossguns are a cheap crutch that need their own season.
Not during the most vulnerable time in a whitetails life.
Looks like the only deer hunting group that success is suffering is the regular archers
Youth hunt up Crossbows up Any weapon season up 9% in the north
Don’t wait to long, why waste opportunity
Yes, because killing is the only thing we are out there for!!!! Your a joke.
Killed one with a compound and one with a crossbow, no firearm needed, not sure yet what I will use for buck number 3.
Wow, Alway's, your a god!!!! LOL.
Nope, just a bow hunter with a large taxidermy bill.
One with a bow and one with a gun you mean.
None with a real bow , 1 with a compound and one with a crossbow, maybe my third one will be with the recurve
Taxidermy bill? I knew it, your hunting fenced in ranches, yup takes real skill for that
If the measure of your success is only a kill, then you're missing the point of being a bowhunter!
Nice try MJ, but you are incorrect as usual.
You big high fence buck killer
He's a violator who hunts (he can't be called a hunter though) over truck loads of pumpkins and has been busted for it. He's also a pathological liar who's been caught lying here loads and loads of times. Really a sick individual craving attention. Thank God he never had kids.
When people try to brag about their trophy room and taxidermy work, you know they lack self esteem and are liars.
Unhappynolucky
Good to hear from you, how was your 9 day any weapon hunt?
alwaysright sounds like a real winner.....
