Bowsite.com

Always hush - hush

Wouldn’t that be something that would have to start with the director and commissioners?

Guess I was wrong to ask for that at the commission meeting at Cacapon - I will draft an email to DNR personnel this afternoon requesting that.

I remember when our DNR didn't even consider the archery harvest in their management policies. My, my how the crossbows have changed things.

"The popularity of hunting with archery equipment continues to grow, with 48% of deer taken during the 2020-2021 archery season, including 33% using a crossbow and 15% using a vertical bow. Gun harvest attributed to 52% of the harvest. This includes 22% with shotguns, 21% with straight walled cartridge rifles, 8% with muzzleloaders, and less than 1% with handguns."

OH gun season always comes in later than ours . Depending on how the calendar month is in any given year the rut is usually still somewhat active and even more bucks may be taken out before breeding whereas in OH the majority of rut is usually over before their gun season comes in

First - once again crossbows are not a part of the bow season - they run concurrent with it. Which means if it becomes an issue they can shorten crossbow season without shortening bow season. I wish they would not include the numbers with archery kills so people would not consider them to be the same! WV has been the only state to get it right and do it this way and not lump it into archery season! I would think a commissioner would know this stuff.

Next please commissioner tell me one season that isn’t buck kill heavy except for antlerless seasons? How many of our surrounding states have an early muzzleloader season or have crossbows that are lumped into their archery seasons? Greg have those early seasons hurt states like OH or Kentucky? This is just more to spread rumors or myths to try to support the lower limit issue.

Again the numbers from our DNR in 2000 before crossbows - our archery kill was 30500+ deer of which about 18,500 were bucks and last year the combined archery and crossbow kill was 31400 of which 19500 were bucks. About 2 or 3 years ago crossbows over took the archery kill by several thousand not for sure of the exact numbers. I was not a crossbow fan as well but I did think we needed a season for them all to their selves thankfully that happen. Again in WV the season can be changed without affect archery!

PA did a study because they were concerned about too many bucks being killed before rifle season but what they found was that crossbows didn’t really bring in new hunters but rifle hunters taking them up.

Guys ya need to chill out and stop the chicken little syndrome- once again our buck harvest has dropped by 60,000 a year!

In my opinion this change to trophy hunting is ruining the sport and is eventually going to destroy it!

Aside from intentionally being argumentative and sarcastic, I don't have a clue what any of that means. I don't need to chill or get a grip on anything. All I did was post a quote from the Ohio DNR and remark how the crossbows kills have overtaken bow kills. I'm thinking maybe someone else needs to get hold of themselves.

I am curious about something. Does anyone know if there is an estimate of the overall deer population in WV, and if so, what is it compared to what it was say.... 20 years ago?

IDK if that was true or if it would have happened but that’s what I was told. As of now and since they became legal they are and have been the same season for all practical purposes. I have been asking for 4-5 years for the archery kill to be broken down as vertical bow and crossbow under archery kill in the big game bulletin but as of now it still hasn’t been despite being told twice that it could be done

So even though they are different concurrent seasons I think it would be very hard to separate them or shorten one over the other. NOT IMPOSSIBLE, but very very difficult because 10s and 10s of thousands have been sold and are in use.

So unless there is to be further division in the hunting community I’m just not seeing them being divided. Of course that’s just an opinion but I think it would be very difficult to tell everyone with a crossbow that they have bought that now they can’t use them during part of archery season . Of course I may be wrong . They all could just say ok and not complain to anyone

Always nice to see a little humor in the forum.

:^)

As to your last question back in the early 2000 I was told by biologist the deer population was anywhere from about 1.25 million to 1.5 million. Then several years ago I was told it was somewhere around 625,000 to 650,000. I would assume that is where it stands since I was last told that it is about keeping the herd numbers stable now. I am sure it is different per county though.

Greg I have several DNR employees that I email and ask for info and it normally takes them a day or two to get back to me. I would assume because they have other job responsibilities and that is why I asked for a more convenient way to get the info like online. Again I would think that would have to get the approval and go ahead by our director and commission - would it not?

As to the trying to say no matter that it is a separate season just because it runs concurrent with archery season and everyone has bought them you will never see it lowered without complaints - seriously? LOL so why even do it the way they did? Back then I went to all of my local legislators- showed them reports from OH and the research done by PA and their concern with too many bucks that might be killed - I know they thought it would be best to keep them a separate season. So I know of no other reason why they would do it the way they did if it were not for if it was ever needed to change the season for whatever reason. Please tell me why you think they did it that way?

In the above post I said separating them would not be impossible but I do think it would be very difficult to do .

What are u going to cut? October, November?

Again it would be nice if we could follow the kill in almost real time -but as of now it is not available to get a weekly or daily report.

Yes it would be easy but for some reason our DNR does not provide us with that. I have asked for a couple of years and did so at the commission meeting.

Again I don’t think the DNR could do this without the approval of our director and commission - that is the reason I requested it at the meeting. After I said that in an earlier post though Greg started to ask me questions about who releases the harvest info. Which I am sure are our DNR biologist and techs - my question is how or by what mode do our biologist and techs have to be able to report the info?

Seriously I have no idea who is to be questioned on this matter - I would think a program needs to be put into place and approved. I would think that whoever runs the DNR website would need to look into this as well.

Once again you are the one saying that too many are being killed before the rut. I think the numbers don’t jive with what you are saying.

I also don’t think what has happened in surrounding states with crossbows or early muzzleloading seasons jive with what you are saying.

Heck I believe KY brings in their rifle season before the rut? At least I thought I saw that - I could be wrong.

JayD, what part of enough animals being able to breed before they are killed do you not understand? How many biology classes did u take in college?

The ability to reproduce before an animal is killed is one of the basic tenets of wildlife biology, if not then we would have a gobbler season that came in in March.

Amazing all of this is happening in WV yet I am seeing big buck after big buck across the state of WV posted on pages all over Facebook.

So far from what I have been shown by some numbers looks like TN trophy entree numbers have dropped over the past few after lowering their limit but from what I was shown WV trophy entrees has increased - I believe WV went thru the same pandemic- I said that so someone can’t come on here and say you can’t use TN numbers because of the pandemic. Once I get this big work project completed- I wanna take some time so I can verify the numbers for myself.

Also have you gotten permission yet to show us the letter from the commission chief yet? The report from the TN Biologist about soils and antler growth - comparing TN and even PA to those Midwest state and how the soil makes a difference. Sort of seems strange that it came out now - if lowering the limit was making such a huge difference why do a report that says antler growth just won’t compare to the states with better soil.

Let me get this straight so now we have all these bucks getting killed before they have the opportunity to breed - then we have seasons that happen after some bucks have lost their antlers and they get killed as antlerless. Just sounds like the sky is falling to me - should we even be hunting at all?

So with this kind of thinking as a commissioner- shouldn’t you forget about lowering the limit? I mean there are hunters out there who don’t think the limit should be lowered and why divide the hunting community anymore? How can you tell all these people who have been buying their extra tags and those who do harvest extra bucks that they can no longer be doing it? LOL

I do know that if 35-39% of gobblers were killed in the spring before breeding that would very likely affect reproduction . I do know I’m seeing more and more crossbow kills every year. They have as much right to hunt with crossbows as anyone with any legal weapon . I do know the archery/crossbow kill is buck heavy and with the efficiency and distance of the newer crossbows I don’t see that trend declining.

The buck kill in 2020 was 38,785 , the archery/ crossbow kill in 2020 was 31,594 and was buck heavy. You do the math .

I think it would be foolish not to be looking at that. I had other commissioners expressing the same concern to me at last meeting .

JayD, this is copied and pasted from a previous post.

I said IDK what the number is but it needs to be watched.

Protecting a resource is different than setting a limit that will actually improve the resource.

The first priority is protecting a resource. Limits can change. Our deer limit has varied from 1-2-3-5 .

I’m talking WV not TN. But since you have a TN fixation it’s my understanding is that Covid affected shows in TN and other states where deer are normally scored the last couple of years . But I don’t really care .

So , You think a minority should control what the majority want on a situation that has no negative effect on a population?

The bucks that have been killed in WV this year look like they haven’t had any problem with the soil. It looks like they got a couple years older because of buck kills about 15-20 thousand less each of the last 2 years than DNR projected. When bucks don’t get killed they get older and bigger. That doesn’t take a biology degree to figure out .

Whoever is feeding you the soil argument may be wrong . I think there will be some data coming out from UT in the next couple of years that will put that old argument to rest. With the exception of states like Iowa, Illinois, and those in deep Midwest.

Blaming soil for not managing deer the way the majority of hunters want deer to be managed is a disservice to the hunters .

I went back and found the e-mail from the Chief TN game Commissioner. At that time he gave me permission to release it to the director and other commissioners. I’m not going to contact him 2+ years later and ask him to release it online .

And no, to my knowledge the commission has never been consulted on which type of computer programming is used by the DNR

The DNR just introduced a new website a couple of months ago . The DNR is a division of the commerce department. So yes, DNR has ability to set up any type of software program they want. They just did. The data comes in at real time , it wouldn’t take Zuckerberg to figure out how to release it in real time but yet it isn’t . Doesn’t that seem at least a little odd to you ?

As to the email from the chief TN commissioner - you were the one who said you were going to contact him about the email - so don’t try to make this about anyone else trying to get you to do something. Seems it’s just something else you start talking about but then it has to remain secretive. As to the release of the info - pretty sure the director explained to me and the rest of the people in attendance at the meeting that they don’t like to release the info until they are sure everything is tallied and gone over and it takes time. So I am going to play your game and do what you do to me - are you saying the director is not on top of things or doing his job regarding this?

So going to try to ask one more time - you are saying that DNR employees could establish a online program to report all data and allow access to the public without the approval of the director or commissioners?

You have your little paragraph there that says all the things you do know - and you try to make it seem that the archery buck kill has just exploded since 2000 up until last year - again facts are it has went up by about 1,000 - just want to remind you that the rifle buck harvest has decreased by 60,000.

Oh I do believe you are going to get your wish and the limit will be reduced - I just think it’s sad that under this direction we have lost 2 state park hunts - more than likely the limit will be lowered and hunting opportunities are being lost.

For the nth time, the Commission has nothing to do with releasing harvest numbers. Could the director get involved? Probably, but I think he leaves that up to the discretion of the wildlife chief. I personally would like to see real time data and I don’t understand why we don’t . It’s not like nuclear launch codes. I like to keep up on harvest numbers but I have to call and get them. It would be more convenient to log onto the ELS system and see them.

I think the director has opened up a number of park hunts that were not opened before. There would likely be more options if someone hadn’t have worked against him behind his back on opening one. Park hunts are designed to reduce the deer herd in parks that are over carrying capacity. They change from year to year based on population. One may be open for a couple of years then closed a couple of years then opened again . They’re based on needs for that year, they’re not permanent hunts. There’s more push back against them than you realize because they’re in a park .

Yes , I have had a few biologists and commission members express concern that a lot of bucks are being killed prior to the rut. And as I have stated 3 times now, IDK at what point that becomes an issue but I think it needs to be followed closely because it is buck heavy. It shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that buck season is buck heavy and that doe season is doe heavy .

In the 7+ years I’ve been to every commission meeting in person. And a lot more before that. I think I’ve seen you at 2, and both have been at Cacapon which is in your back yard. I think I have a pretty good handle on what goes on and is discussed at the meetings. I know who shows up and who doesn’t and I listen to the concerns and opinions of those that do speak .

Biologists hadn’t approached me about allowing youth to use #8 and #9 TSS in youth gobbler season . Biologists hadn’t approached me about the inability for youth to use a handheld bow during youth spring gobbler season either. I approached them on both issues and let them know of the problem and both problems got fixed. All ideas, concerns, and opinions don’t have to be thought of and brought up for them to be valid concerns . That is one of the functions of the Commission. To listen to peoples concerns, complaints, opinions, and try to act on them if they are reasonable, biologically sound, and fiscally responsible.

It is not to only listen to biologists and rubber stamp everything they say. They play a huge role but it’s not the only role. The public has an input and again is why the Commission was initially formed.

Would you want an agency that you fund voluntary to operate without any public input ? I sure wouldn’t.

Regardless of what anyone thinks this isn’t about me winning anything or someone losing anything. It’s about the majority of citizens getting input into how they want their deer managed

What I have asked is - you are saying that whatever department that takes care of tallying the numbers - on their own they can go to the DNR website and open up a new section that the public would be able to access and get all the harvest information and they can do this without having to get the approval of the director or commission? If this is true then I wasted my time asking at the commission meeting. I am just going to send an email to the the guys I normally send my email to and request they do so then.

So does the majority get to tell us what the speed limit is set at? I could make a silly list up of a number of things - just because there is a majority doesn’t always make it so.

I still think our DNR has done a great job - they have opened up trophy areas across the state and I look for more to be open. So it’s not like they have been ignoring anyone. And I think it is a pitiful time when our director and biologist are saying the only thing lowering the limit to 2 will ONLY do is give a perception that something is being done when it will actually have no effect whatsoever. That’s the problem with letting surveys and polls shape the direction instead of just doing the right thing.

What everyone is forgetting or failing to mention is the paragraph from the first white paper the DNR did on reducing the buck limit. That was the sociological impact that reducing the buck limit would likely have. And again for the 3rd time that is likely to be the most important, after all hunters are people. It’s worked in pretty much every other state, I don’t see where it wouldn’t be the same here . That paper was written before the current director was there. He may not be aware of it. It was written before I was there and I don’t have a copy of it but did see it. Maybe your buddy can get you a copy of it

Back in 1933, the legislature and Governor saw and recognized the need for a game and fish commission to oversee the DNR and give the public a voice . I think it was a wise decision then and still think it is .

Other states have a lower limit and their one crossbow kill ends their season for bucks. WV hunters get three crossbow kills and then more seasons.

Yes, crossbow and bow are concurrent but good luck if you think crossbow season will be shortened, regardless of harvest data.

Is there a management advantage I’m missing or what?

More and more people are distrustful of any area of government. Holding information just makes that worse in my opinion . People like transparency .

I could careless on the timing as long as it is reasonable but it would be better than having to locate or ask for a big game bulletin. Be nice to get the real info instead of a bunch of rumors and falsehoods being spread.

Listened to a interesting podcast by the Meathunter - believe it was episode 184. Talking to 2 biologist from QDMA/NDA. It’s long though - thankfully I could listen it while I was working. The part where qdm turns into trophy management was EXTREMELY interesting.

If it was because of a three buck limit, I would think it would have taken place shortly after it was initiated in 2005. Not sixteen years later?? You are simply riding the coattails of a low buck harvest trying to correlate it with what you want to prove.

We have genetics, nutrition, and habitat. We proved what we have if given age.

So why do you think the harvest has dropped by 60,000 over the last 18 to 20 years? And why the lower harvest the past 2 years? Can’t wait to hear your reply!

I think our DNR is one of the few who have planned it right. They haven’t went to the extreme and lowered the limit to where peta would be happy. They make money off of people buying extra tags even though very few actually use them. It benefits us all - I am sure the money has went into helping wildlife as well. They have thought of all hunters - they have provided trophy areas and are even adding more, But for some reason some people just can’t be happy.

{{{"...early 2000 I was told by biologist the deer population was anywhere from about 1.25 million to 1.5 million. Then several years ago I was told it was somewhere around 625,000 to 650,000..."}}}

If your numbers are correct, that alone would account for a drop of 43% to 50% in the buck kill of what it was 20 years ago. So... what was the buck kill 20 years ago?

Last year rifle buck harvest was 38000 and archery buck harvest was 19,500.

Again around a 60,000 decrease over about 20 years.

Greg - I think some really don’t have a concept of math anymore.

So let me ask you a question do you think it has led to a decline in hunters as well?

You know Cory why don’t we just drop it to zero - seems like that would be the only number you would be happy with.

I am saying we are at the perfect medium.

LOL and you all try to say I twist words. Unbelievable! Still working right now but a little later going to bring out some more numbers for you to ponder on as well.

Commissioner just saw your comment about me being fixated on TN - funny how whenever you bring up something about another state it’s perfectly fine - when I do I am fixated. Again just too much …

If the deer herd dropped from 1.5 million to 650,000 and the buck harvest dropped during that same time period am I stretching it a bit too far to assume there may be some correlation between the 2 events ?

If the deer herd dropped from 1.5 million to 650,000 and the buck harvest dropped during that same time period am I stretching it a bit too far to assume there may be some correlation between the 2 events ?

Don't try to make your argument into me being for a zero buck limit. Don't try to misconstrue people's position to fit your argument.

I actually know why the limit dropped - reason I gave a DNR a passing grade and not an F.

The only reason I brought TN up was because of you all. You do this stuff and either try to hide from the fact that you have brought them into the picture or have forgotten you’ve done it. Then you want to say the other person is wrong for bringing up the numbers on that state.

So Cory - would you say a 60,000 drop over the past 18 to 20 years is pretty drastic? I would - just curious as to what you think. And yes I would say it’s because the adjust by our DNR for both bucks and does has resulted in this.

I haven’t had a bunch of time but while looking something up I saw an article about the first day of rifle season kill for this year - I believe it was around 11,000 - lower than last years which I think was a little over 12,000. So I am thinking we will probably be a little under last years rifle buck kill.

So you seem very happy that the harvest has been low here the past 2 years. Probably going to happen again this year. So why the need to lower buck limit even more since what is going on now is apparently working?

So buck kill with rifle, bow and crossbow last year was around 58,000 - so apparently that is too much - what are you expecting the number to be if or when it drops to 2 buck limit? Seriously I just want to know where you all think the buck harvest should be.