Topics for UBP Annual Meeting
Pennsylvania
Thought maybe it would be good for folks to post their issues here so they are all in one place and in your own words.
List them here with your name and we will bring them up at the meeting next Sunday
Hi, My concerns are, 1. The technical advancement of the crossbow with the faster speeds,longer shot capability,and the optics being used. 2. The increase of the deer harvest due to crossbows. 3. I think crossbows should be limited in there use just like inline muzzleloader or limited to seniors and the physically disabled. Archery season is supposed to be a primitive weapons season and the crossbow is not a primitive weapons. Just because crossbow has bow in it does not make it bow.
Thank you Doug Vaught
Hi Perry - I'm a life member. I'd be interested in coming up with a plan to make vertical bow hunters have a say in the commission's rule/regs/seasons. It seems since the crossbow we've become less important, likely, due to loss of numbers. The UBP seemed to have influence in days gone by, but, with the amount of money other groups have had it seems that has been diluted. Perhaps that is the new reality. I'd be ok with a season for vertical bows and another for crossbows (like bow, gun, muzzleloader etc...currently). Ultimately, would like to figure out how our voice can be heard with the PGC, legislature. Thanks for asking!
Edit,, I am a UBP member**** Well, I'd like to see all powered scopes, per-set scopes, auto range finding scopes be eliminated for all archery equipment. Also like to see 2 different stamps, one for hand drawn and one for non-hand drawn bows, for statistics and so on. Lots of folks that harvest is not marking their harvest report truly. If it was not for the politics, we would of had a 2-stamp archery season. A 2-stamp system was not put in place for one reason, a few politicians and archery companies didn't want us to know the facts. If any UBP member disagrees with my last statement, please comment on it.
States are now seen what's happened and starting to just say no to this technology. Even Boone and Crocket has spoken out recently on this technology. Most if not all of you know were Pope & Young stands on this.
I know some here will think that shooting a deer at now 200yds with archery equipment is ok. Yes, some are saying. But I'd never shoot at 200yds. We all know that they aren't speaking for everyone. Folks will be buying this equipment that can be shot at 200yds, so they can shoot 200yds. A few months back I stated by 2025 folks will be able to shoot archery equipment at 150yds boy, I was wrong. So where will it be in 2025????
Respectfully: Ed Rogalski
Lots of small fawns. Are too many bucks being killed before the rut?
Take crossbows out of archery unless you have a disability, when I was 12 or 13 I had to pull back 45 50 lb bows , maby to get youth out they can hunt with a crossbow... once they put crossbows in archery there's no way they will take them out now....
Changes to the 6 tag field possession limit for special regulations areas, should be higher. Yes, a specific stamp separation for vertical versus horizontal. Removals of all Sunday hunting regulations. No more gaps in seasons closings in special regulations areas. And reversal of letting horizontal into archery, back to firearms seasons.
Ok-thanks guys. Will convey your views to the BOD on Sunday. Keep them coming...................
John-what do you mean by: “Removals of all Sunday hunting regulations. No more gaps in seasons closings in special regulations areas. “
Remove the ban on all Sundays . Let us have the choice instead of the 3 they spoonfed us to keep us quiet. And what I mean is that there should not be any gaps in between the gun season ending and the start again after Xmas. Special regulations areas should be open.
Ok- gotcha- thanks for the clarification!
I agree with Teeton on a lot of what he said. I especially like the 2 stamp license for horizontal bow and crossbow. Going into archery season with these modern crossbows is a slap in the face to a vertical bow hunter. I, also think, the late season archery season should start the Monday after rifle season concludes for the same amount of days as currently allowed. Thanks Rut.
Jim Corcoran
UBP Member - And - forgive me Perry and Ed R. (don't mean to start a debate) - part of the BOD during the xbow fiasco. Believe me we considered every option concerning the xbow. There was no compromise, no want (from the other side) for anything but full inclusion in archery season. That is why they went for the gut punch and had the definition of a bow changed in Title 54 to include the crossbow. So that it couldn't be separated -without a legislative change. The only thing we got was separation on harvest report card.
-Continued support for Dan Laughlin's Sunday Hunting Bill. -Resource first! If a particular hunting weapon is taking too many deer, according to biological impact, then that hunting weapon needs to be further regulated. -Can the age for Senior Licenses be lowered from 65 to perhaps 62 or 60? Wondering what the estimated financial impact would be?? -Allow statewide archery opener to be same date as the current 3WMUs that now have Sept opener ~ of course as resource allows.
Thanks!
Bc173 late season start Monday after orange army deer are still spooked nocturnal unless bumped in my area , it's hard hunting but I hunt with the flinter in late season...
Hind sight is 20/20 they say. Maybe when they were trying to get the crossbow legalized for the bow season, we should have said, " OK, give them a week in October. Similar to the early black power season. Trying to change regs now I doubt will ever happen. Sad that they let crossbows in the regular archery season. If you are healthy enough to draw a bow, then you are just plain lazy to shoot a cross bow. Crossbow hunters I know might not even pick up their crossbow and sight in before the season. They hit and not recover 2 to 3 deer to each one they do recover. SAD!
Just so you guys know, everything you guys suggest (except for the high tech stuff we never expected) was talked about before they were legal, so things like Woody are saying is not new. We did beat them up about it once already. We can say I told you so.
Bow hunter… I hear and understand what you’re saying. But, please don’t let me hear the old adage that, the deer need a break. You know, like the Sunday hunting haters want you to believe. I do know one thing though, it would save many bucks that have already shed.
And again, when he wasn't asked, the resident expert chimed in for the agenda of a UBP meeting. Wow Gene.
Hey guys, Let’s NOT turn this thread into a debate! This thread is intended to get your comments...................to be forwarded to the UBP BOD at the annual meeting on Sunday. Thank you!
I agree this must be kept civil. I also believe that only comments from UBP members should be allowed at the meeting.
I am a member. Folks that read this I'd ask that you go back to your comments and post that your a UBP member. I just did.
Lifetime member. Vertical bowhunter, Lifetime Vertical. There is some truth for you Gene.
Isn't there a PGC meeting or a Horton, 10 point, raven board of directors meeting your presence is urgently needed at Gene? I'm sure your expertise is being wasted trolling the UBP yearly meeting agenda. Surely your multi talented horizontal love could be more aptly be applied in other forums.
I'm a UBP Life Member. I agree with what Ed Rogalski, Jen Sager, and Red Lion suggested.
Ed- although our membership is only a small percentage of the total number of licensed Bowhunters in Pa, we DO represent ALL Bowhunters in Pa. That’s why I only asked for names..................
Been a long time UBP member.
I'm a life member, and have been a member since a year or 2 after the UBP started. i believe Galen was president then. Was a member of the PA Bowhunters Society before that
Sorry Perry !!! This thread was Nut Rut's, My apologies to him, if I overstepped. Ed
I have been a UBP member for several years. I always have and still do oppose crossbows in archery season, but as they say that ship has left the harbor. I would say let crossbows participate in the first two weeks of the archery season unless they have a doctor's excuse. They can then use their cross gun in rifle season if they so choose or if they are physically able, they can pick up a vertical bow and hunt the balance of the archery season. No crossbows in the late archery unless they have a doctor's excuse. Frankly, I would prefer to only give them the first week, but would be willing to compromise and give them the first 2 weeks.
Last call for UBP members who want to zoom in on the meeting. PM me or send me your e-mail address and I will try to get you a invite link to the meeting. I plan on being there baring any extremely bad weather. Is it this Sunday at 10 AM Perry?
I never did a zoom meet. I can't say whether I'd be able to make it or not at this time. If I get a invite and can't make it will it cost the UBP any $$? Going hunting Saturday, may have do some work Sunday??? At this time not sure also how I get on to a zoom meet. I'm going to tube it tonight..
Art,, I'm sending you my email. If it costs the UBP money for me to be on it, don't send me a invite. Ed
Yes Art- Sunday at 10am at C.J. Hummels in Lenhartsville. (Or On zoom) In upstairs conference room. Park in back and take the stairs (Outside) up to the second floor.
Compound bows, or stick bows in archery, no more 2 weeks of doe season in rifle....
Anyone know why a unused buck tag can not be converted to a doe tag for the late archery season? Late season muzzleloader hunters are able to use their unused buck tags for doe tags if I read the law correctly. It would seem like a practical idea since PGC's goal is to reduce the herd population.
Yep, always wondered about that too................
I seem to remember a discussion about that. If I recall correctly, there was a feeling that since late flintlock hunters numbers are low, allowing a antlerless deer to be taken anywhere in the state would have no impact to the population. With hundreds of thousands of potential archery license holders still having a valid buck tag, allowing an antlerless deer to be harvested anywhere statewide caused some concern.
Personally, I don't think the impact would be great. A small percentage of archery licenses holders hunt much in the late season.
OK Folks- I just forwarded the above comments to the UBP BOD to be discussed at the Annual Meeting Sunday............................................
Man, wish I could make it, really an informative session.
The crossbows thing is not going to change it’s a money maker and that’s it ! Now they have them shooting 2 bolts I want to know if the UBP is going to stop that?!
Cant. Its was Legislative decision to determine that a crossbow and a longbow and everything in between are the same for use in archery. A LEGISLATIVE decision.
^^^ and that’s the reason archery season is a dam free-for-all. Hell, I don’t know why you’re not allowed to use rifles the whole dam season and just call it a bow.
I got an email, and the way I took it (with the storm and all) was that the meeting was cancelled in whole. I just found out tonight that it was not cancelled, but went to just a zoom meeting.
I chatted with Perry about my concerns and he stated he was going to bring up these concerns also at the meet. I just found out tonight that Perry did not participate in the meet.
So can anyone tell me if any of the stuff we've been chatting about was addressed during this meeting??
With one of the NRA executive board member now heading the ATA (Archery Trade Association).. A gun hunter heading an archery association ??? Our archery season has now become a industry for $$$. The ATA once run by bowhunters looks to be now run by gun hunters???
I had a whole other paragraph typed and decided to delete it at this time till I hear if anything we chatted about was brought up at the meet and to what detail. Respectfully Ed
So it was the legislature and not the Game Commission that determined that a crossbow is a bow for archery season? I did not know that. Can anybody site the particular law for me? Thanks
Looks like the PGC is most concerned about falconers and quail, lol, based on the agenda for the upcoming meeting. Pretty boring stuff.
I did bring some of it up Ed. I did not have Perry's list. Until someone can scientifically prove to the PGC that all the high tech stuff is detrimental to the resource it/they is/are here to stay. The PGC should address it automatically whether we support it or not. Present that scientific study of facts to the UPB and I think they would support it. Look at our mission statement.
We support game management based on sound biological principles and a "resource first" philosophy.
Ed since the storm had virtually everyone staying home, with good reason, I think the meeting was scaled down to more of a a BOD meeting, which can be very different than a membership meeting. So the next member meeting is better, That way YOU can speak in person instead of someone else :) I can verify that when I wasnt bouncing around between my video capable implements that were running out of battery-3x, I can tell you that there was discussion.
I asked via pm and emails to take part saturday night and got an invite.
FWIW- The UBP should NOT converse about or discuss any business by or from members on a public forum. Too many out there ready to sling crap- alot of that lately. If Pat could monitor members on his site(here) to only bowhunters, it would be different. I’ll consider starting a Pa Bowhunter Conference FB page. ONLY BOWHUNTERS.
Thanks for the info and efforts - Dale, Teeton, Horsethief!
Dale, I got the invite to the zoom meeting. I then got a email from the UBP, I think Saturday saying the meeting was canceled. So, I didn't log in on Sunday. I actually got help and did a zoom meet with a friend so I could be ready Sunday. I have never done a zoom meeting before.
Art, what's your opinion on xbows in the Pa Archery season?
Why was it ok to fight it then and not now and to look into putting restrictions on it????
Dale, very true. Like we need more input from people that hate why we are members.
I was told it was more of a COVID issue than weather Dale. Several of the key players were in isolation and could not make the in person meeting. That’s why it was moved to Zoom.
Unfortunately I was at my mom’s house on Saturday night to visit and be closer to the meeting, then got word Sunday morning that I was needed at home to take care of some household issues. So I missed the meeting as I was driving home at the time.
I did however forward a list of issues to the BOD prior to the meeting. (Thursday)
There was some confusion as to whether the meeting was cancelled or postponed.
ED-THE LEGISLATURE PUT IT INTO LAW THAT A CROSSBOW IS NO DIFFERENT THAN A LONGBOW? That was stated by the UBP execs. ED Are you going to fight the PGC for what the Legislature has forced them to do BY LAW?
John we need input from others, not only UBP members because its very important that we are joined by new members. But if it were just a bowhunting site with pa bowhunters. Hell who knows how many Xbowers are here just taking it all in. Hell you got one guy arguing with statistical half truths against everyone here lol.
Thats why you dont discuss UBP business on a public forum.
Perry- I was considering attending. Weather said no. If its an important issue enough to me, and I expect to be heard, I’ll drive my 3-4 hrs to get there. Hayl I retired the UBP stuff a couple/few years ago, and I will drive to a members meeting to state my thoughts. I had to settle for the zoom. I got to say what I wanted and asked for UBP support, and whether I get it or not, I guess Im not done trying to forge ahead.:)
Let me clarify please The legislature and its law, according to the UBP states no differences between a longbow and crossbow. Maybe that's a better way to explain it.
I hear you. I usually try to make the annual meeting (in person) as it is only about 45 min from my mom's, so I usually combine a visit with the meeting.
Now that you're retired, you should join us for another UBP 5C Hunt! ;-)
Dale, I always stated about limiting certain types of sites for all archery equipment. The same way flintlock is limited to iron sites.
Also Dale or anyone else that can find info on the statement Dale made about xbows and long bows. "ED-THE LEGISLATURE PUT IT INTO LAW THAT A CROSSBOW IS NO DIFFERENT THAN A LONGBOW?"
Why other National and State organization are now pushing back against technology in hunting, why does it seem that we/I am hitting a wall?
Ed I dont know the exact wording. Im sure it doesn't read “crossbows and longbows are the same” It probably says something like The law does not differentiate between the 2. Ive said enough on it now….. Maybe Ed, get in touch with the UBP hierarchy via phone or text.
Ed what are the other states and national orgs you speak of. Id like to follow shat they are doing.
Ed, I am still thinking about your last question to me.
Ok Art.
Over the last few day starting to remember and understand how the law on bows was put into effect. Actually Jen first touched on it in her earlier post and then when Dale stated it. So that means no way at this time to get a stamp for xbows and a different one for hand drawn bows. . Somehow I forgot how and that, that law was put in. Yes we got screwed and lets face it that law was put there so we would not really know the true facts..
I'm still standing by my saying on limiting certain types of sights for all archery equipment.
Here is the definition of a bow right from Title 34.
"Bow." A weapon which propels an arrow, is hand-held, hand-drawn, held in the drawn position by hand or by a hand-held mechanical device and released by hand. The term includes a device held in place by a brace secured around the body of the hunter. The term also includes a crossbow which, when used for hunting deer, bear or turkey, has a draw weight of no less than 125 pounds
Well there it is. We were sleeping at the switch. Should have never happened. It will take a monumental effort to change it as just about every so called "bowhunter" in my neck of PA is carrying a crossbow. The number of rifle hunters that we normally have has dropped off precipitously. That of course is because they killed their deer with a crossbow in "archery" season. Don't believe me, just ask many of the deer processors and taxidermists in western PA. Not sure what the Game Commission's position is on limiting crossbows in archery season, but if it takes the legislature to act, it will never happen.
Nothing could have been done. Sorry.
Following is MY OPINION!
The Legislature was hell bent on “getting back” at the UBP for support of Gary Alt and the Deer Management plan. They were pissed when we fought back at the mandatory Flo Orange proposed legislation. They were upset we didnt support the xbow. The main feller against the UBP, was an R and had the support of D’s for us having enough nuts to disagree publicly and persuade opposition against these stupid proposals. This man, his name mentioned earlier, claimed to pick up a bowhunter, that was walking down a road to his parked truck. The hunter was given a ride, and during the following conversation mentioned he had hit (wounded) 4 bucks during the archery season. Of course it was used against bowhunters.
FWIW- It was said that the FO proposal was a “retirement gift” for a particular individual- One that wanted to “give it” to the bowhunters….
It was also during this time when, with the help of many many UBP Reps and members, that were also IBEP/NBEF instructors. (International Bowhunter Education Foundation/National Bowhunter Education Foundation) and we supported the states(PGC’s) takeover of the program, also a goal of the IBEP. Several UBP members helped write the outline and teach the very first Bowhunter Education programs. At that time the xbow inclusion was making noise, and several of us told the PGC, IF the weapons were included, we would not teach it in our Bow Ed programs or if they were included, there would be many instructors leaving HTE. At time of inclusion well OVER 100 folks, I was told, somewhere north of 120, most UBP members, stood up for their values and left the Pa Bow Ed program.
There isnt another organization that has created more positive change in pa hunting than the UBP, and the UBP is constantly chastised for something the legislature did to spite us.
Not much different than a scoped crossbow.
Not much different than a scoped crossbow.
According to Mitch’s Title 34 post above the “Crackshot” would have to be used during a rifle season. Due to no string, no draw weight.
Well Dale. I was one of those NBEF instructors, along with Hank Barella who walked away when the PGC took of the “bow hunter Ed” program. We had a great group in Bucks/Montgomery counties, doing 3-4 classes per summer. We were both UBP county reps. Lots of stuff going on behind the scenes, that most don’t know about.
Just a THANKYOU to all past and present UBP officers. I appreciate what you have done for the PA bowhunters. Jeff
Thanks Bro. Brian we had really great folks all over the state! Im sure with the cast of characters you all had the classes would’ve been great!
Folks need to know that back then and today still, there were/are “connections” within state politicians and state run orgs and some Pa hunting orgs. Even on a national level but Im not going there at this time.
If you are a member and you're tired of whatever….. go to a members meeting. Not on a public board. You may find out there are more thinking like you. Tired of an issue? Get in front of the BOD’s with a bunch of other members and let them know!
Maybe its time for a membership poll. It can be done via emails or the magazine.
FWIW- I seem to remember…..maybe Im wrong.
There was an opening in or near Philly for a judge. I guess it was being contested. If the R stopped opposing this judge the D would then support the Deer management plan or let it out of committee to be voted upon…… something like that. Not being on that side if the state, I wondering about a corrupt judge that was removed several years ago from Philly……Could it have been the same? Oh well…. Im just thinking:)
BSKED, we did have a great NBEF Team. After we were absorbed into the PGC's Bowhunter Education program, I think all of us except Ned quit when they made Crossbows statewide.
What is the UPB's official position on crossbows in "archery" season?
Basically we’re stuck with them Tom..............
But it doesn’t mean we should sit back and watch. We support resource first, I’m fine with that. However there is some evidence, although informal, of bucks running themselves to death over pressure to breed non bred does. More and more folks on the Facebook sites and other boards are finding bucks with no hint of reason of their demise.
Perhaps crossbow use and it’s obvious effective range now being 200yds out of the box, is detrimental to our buck/doe ratios. Maybe it’s time to shorten the crossbow to a much shorter season. The crossbow folks will all agree with the resource first position.
Ohio data. So much for crossbows being 200 yard laser guided missiles out of the box. Yes, the data is several years old but rest assured, crossbows in excess of 400fps were quite common then as well. The same data also showed crossbow success about 3% higher than compounds.
Does the UPB have an official position or not regardless of whether we are stuck with them? If the stats continue in the current directions, I don't think that this is going to end well for us. Not sure what we can do about it, but it would help to know where the UPB officially stands on the subject. I saw a picture of a crossbow in my recent UPB issue.
"If the stats continue in the current directions, I don't think that this is going to end well for us. "
What stats do you speak of? The number of people using crossbows or the harvest stats? The archery harvest actually dropped last year. As far as the percent of the total harvest by archery increasing, that is largely due to a decrease in the total number of deer hunters and of those that are left, participation in archery remains strong. We have lost over 250,000 rifle only deer hunters over the past 20 years.
What percent of archery harvests are done by crossbows and is that number increasing? As to the loss of rifle hunters, I maintain that it is because many rifle hunters have started hunting with crossbows and have harvested their animals long before rifle season starts. At least that is the way it is around me. Many of my neighbors once hunted with a rifle now hunt archery season with a crossbow. If you talk to processors and taxidermists, they are seeing dramatic increases during archery season and they all say that it is due to crossbows. The fact is that there are more and more people hunting in archery season and they are using a weapon (the crossbow) which is a much more effective weapon than a vertical bow. How many young kids are taking deer with a vertical bow? I suspect that the Game Commission is only concerned with their overall harvest goals and that they really don't care what weapon is used to accomplish that goal. If that is the case, who cares whether we have any archery season or not? The Game Commission can just have a deer season that is open just long enough to attain their harvest goals regardless of weapon used. I obviously don't want to see that, but I am concerned that we may be headed that way...
"What percent of archery harvests are done by crossbows and is that number increasing?"
Yes it is increasing as more people that used to use compounds have made the switch and we have added some new people to the ranks.
" As to the loss of rifle hunters, I maintain that it is because many rifle hunters have started hunting with crossbows and have harvested their animals long before rifle season starts."
The numbers don't support that. We used to have 1.1 million deer hunters. Now, according to the PGC about 750-800,000 hunt deer. We have lost hundreds of thousands of "deer hunters" while only adding tens of thousands of new participants in archery season.
"The fact is that there are more and more people hunting in archery season and they are using a weapon (the crossbow) which is a much more effective weapon than a vertical bow. "
Data from several states shows the advantage of using a crossbows equates to about 3-5% when it comes to success rates. As you can see from the graph I posted, hits and misses are not that far apart.
There are a lot of misconceptions about crossbows when it comes to actual field use and its affects of the deer harvest. Yes, crossbows are "easier" to become proficient with and enjoy a slightly higher success rate, but they are not rifles and not going to result in impact to the resource or seasons length if those decisions are science based.
Interesting data, Gene. Source?
"We have lost hundreds of thousands of "deer hunters" while only adding tens of thousands of new participants in archery season."
Except we've gained 125K bowhunters, the vast majority of which use xguns. 125K is NOT tens of thousands. That implies a mid five digit increase. It's well over 100K.
"Data from several states shows the advantage of using a crossbows equates to about 3-5% when it comes to success rates."
Link please. Only 3-5% increase in the success. We've added 50% more bowhunters, well, hunters with an archery stamp, but we've almost doubled our archery kill. During the 2010/11 season the harvest was 39,450 buck and 33,070 doe. In 2021/22 it was 68,580 buck and 62,070 doe. Considering 70% of PA archery stamp holders use xguns, I'd say your 3-5% increase in success rate is bravo sierra. OR it's generated by the xgun manufacturers, which would make it doubly suspect.
Bowbender said: Interesting data, Gene. Source?
Ohio DNR
Bowbender said: Except we've gained 125K bowhunters, the vast majority of which use xguns. 125K is NOT tens of thousands. That implies a mid five digit increase. It's well over 100K.
Our historical high for adult archery license sales was about 320K which did not include combos etc when we had 1.1 million deer hunters.......... For 2020, I believe our adult archery license sales were 354k? We have not actually gained a huge number of bowhunters compared to the time when we had 1.1 million deer hunters. But we have lost a ton of rifle deer hunters during that same time. That is the primary reason for the percent harvest by archery creeping up over time. The comments I made where in response to a discussion with another member about the large loss in deer hunters and the slight uptick in archery hunters over the years as it relates to the percent harvest by archery climbing, not just post crossbow. Lets stick to apples to apples.
Bowbender said: Link please. Only 3-5% increase in the success. We've added 50% more bowhunters, well, hunters with an archery stamp, but we've almost doubled our archery kill. During the 2010/11 season the harvest was 39,450 buck and 33,070 doe. In 2021/22 it was 68,580 buck and 62,070 doe. Considering 70% of PA archery stamp holders use xguns, I'd say your 3-5% increase in success rate is bravo sierra. OR it's generated by the xgun manufacturers, which would make it doubly suspect.
Ohio DNR. Actually I averaged the data. Success rates for crossbow/versus compound ranged from a bit over 1% to 5% higher. That data was taken from the DNR and published by someone else in a article detailing the crossbow/compound debate. No it was not a "crossbow" or manufacturer affiliated magazine. I have seen loads of Ohio data. You can see in the graph I posted hits and missed were pretty darn close for each weapon.
Where did you get the 70% use crossbows in Pa? In Ohio, where crossbows have been legal for a much longer time than in Pa, about 60% use crossbows. In the south, where crossbows have been been legal for a very long time, compound use is still higher than crossbows..
As far as Dale's comment about bucks running around with their tongues hanging out looking for late does, that is too funny. That must go back to the argument that Pa is killing too many bucks pre rut. For some history, Cal Dubrock was asked a question at a commissioner meeting about when would he have a concern regarding the percent of bucks harvested pre rut. He him and hawed, thought about it and threw out the number 50%. It was obvious for the objective folks watching that he had no idea and just threw out a number. Now, some of the non objective folks still cling to that number. Well, in many destination states for whitetail, the bulk of the antlered harvest occurs prior to the end of the main rutting period. So that argument is pretty much baseless.
Dale… I agree with you 100%. Admitting defeat is one thing but the willingness to accept it is ridiculous. Accepting defeat is beyond my comprehension. Crossbows should be for the physically disabled or used in rifle season, only.
Mad Trapper, Dale, Teeton, bowbender and bc173....................I suggest you attend a UBP Board meeting or the annual meeting to bring your concerns to the board of directors. I brought up these issues at the annual meeting in January and it did not go too far...................
I won’t go into details here, but if you want more info just PM me and I will be happy to talk about it.
Well I’m just being a “meanie” again …. Albeit a funny one. Perry My opinions have been made….. for 26 or so years. I’m not going into the source of my information. We need a 3 week crossbow season 1 week in archery 2 weeks after Thanksgiving :))
Actually Gene, the historical high of 325K was years prior to xbow inclusion. I believe in 2008 or 09 it was around 225-250K.
Link the Ohio data.
Curious why the only time you pop up is when there is a xbow issue. I mean on HuntingPA this thread would have been nuked and the un-enlightened getting a timeout. Still trying to spread your "I love xbows and you will too" message.
BTW, the 70% was rounded up from 66%. Source? PGC. Still ain't buying the 3-5% success increase.
dpms. Do you support resource first? Will you support a reduction in available time to use a crossbow for deer seasons? Just curious….
Bowbender said: "Actually Gene, the historical high of 325K was years prior to xbow inclusion. I believe in 2008 or 09 it was around 225-250K."
Yes. I said the 320K was historical from when we had 1.1 million deer hunters which is what I was discussing with the other member.
Dale said: "dpms. Do you support resource first? Will you support a reduction in available time to use a crossbow for deer seasons? Just curious…."
I have always supported science based deer management. I and others testified at commissioner meetings to that fact during the crossbow wars. In regards to your specific question as it relates to crossbows, I would need to see a specific proposal and what that proposal is based on before offering support or opposition. Anything else is a hypothetical.
Good luck tomorrow ladies and gents for those headed off to the turkey woods. 3:30am is gonna come quick. I have a blind set which I want to be in by 4:45 near a roosting area. Hopefully I return to see some arrowed gobblers tomorrow.
I don’t disagree with you Dale.
Gene- I hope to see some arrowed birds too. And not those short little stubby things that some people try to call “arrows!” ;-)
Rut… no sure, but it seems to me that the UBP, is mostly an Eastern Pa. group, because if it wasn’t for Bowsite, I would have never heard of the group. I’m pretty active in all things outdoors, including past NWTF chapter president. Is there a group affiliation with the western side of the state? And if so, who would I contact or are there any meetings held in Western Pa. ?
Well Jim, it’s true we probably have more members and reps/directors from Eastern Pa, but we do have reps and members in just about every county in Pa. In fact, the UBP office was out in Clarion County for years and Art Keefer the office manager, went to most of the big sports shows to man our UBP booth, including the Monroeville show.
I think the main reason we have more members/reps from Eastern Pa is because UBP was founded there and the Eastern Regions seem to be more active, especially in the Southeast. But it’s always our goal to try to get the Western part of the state more active.
Not sure where you are, but I would encourage you (and anyone reading this) to reach out to the UBP Office to find out who your County Rep and Regional Directors are.
If you need help you can always PM me and I can point you in the right direction. That goes for anybody reading this.
Jim- I know in the past, the BOD Meetings were rotated around the different regions to give everyone a chance to participate. But since COVID they have also been doing the meeting with an online link for those who could not attend in person. It seems to be working very well, and I think that option may very well be utilized even after COVID is over. If you contact Pat in the UBP Office, he could give you the info to participate.
Thanks Rut…. I appreciate the feed back and will call to join. I know you guys probably catch a lot of grief from a lot of people, and believe me, that’s not my intention. I’m just a firm believer in the fact that bow season should be confined to hand drawn bows, period. The crossbow people can have rifle season to “bow” hunt. As it should have been in the first place. Then we’ll see how many truly want to “bow” hunt then. My guess is, not many.
No problem Jim! I would invite you or anyone interested in learning more about UBP to consider joining us at the Summer Campout in Aug or our 5C Doe Hunt in Sept. It’s a great way to meet some of the leadership of UBP who are always more than willing to talk with members who are interested in learning more about our organization. Quite often that happens around a campfire after hunting or shooting our bows all day.
Actually, under the older format of moving the quarterly meetings and annual banquets back and forth from east to west, it was found at that time that the same people came to the meetings/banquet no matter where they were held. We do have a board member who is from western PA and I am an appointed At Large advisor to the president.
We are allowed to organize any kind of event independently anywhere we want to so if any of you want to have a banquet, camp out, doe hunt, fund raiser picnic, bake sale, archery golf shoot, golf outing, fashion show, organization day at a Pirate or Curve baseball game, etc. , let me know and we will form a committee. I still go to the Pinehill event and was set to do the Monroeville Show this past year until it got cancelled.
Rut said: "Gene- I hope to see some arrowed birds too. And not those short little stubby things that some people try to call “arrows!” ;-)"
I came close. Had a longbeard, three jakes and a few hens within 40 yards but I wont shoot at a turkey that far with an arrow, even from my flame thrower crossbow. It would have been game over with the shotgun.
I thought you said “arrows” Gene? Crossbows shoot BOLTS..................
From: horsethief51 01-May-22
Actually, under the older format of moving the quarterly meetings and annual banquets back and forth from east to west, it was found at that time that the same people came to the meetings/banquet no matter where they were held.
That’s right Art- thanks for bringing that up. I forgot to mention that.
I joined in 92 or 93 so this list was already in existence when I became a member. From: approx. 1990 to date.
Past UBP President-Rich Wingertsahn. Vice President- Jim Walters. Westmoreland Cty Rep- Jim Gaffney. Allegheny Cty Rep - Tom Gaffney. Westmoreland cty - Rep Yours truly. Allegheny cty Rep - Gary Churazzi. Regional director - Yours truly. Regional director-Roger Rhea. UBP BOD -Jeff Uschak. **Art Keefer- secretary. **Somerset Cty Rep Larry Stewart.
There were quite a few more from Western Pa, I just don’t remember.
This group above, from western Pa was part of the UBP Driving force to gain the 2 week extension from 4 to 6 weeks. The entire organization across our state joined, pushed, and won. I know of families, separated by divorce, due to men spending so much time fighting the crossbow, gaining seasons, Bowhunter education etc etc… I could go on and on.
The Pa Bowhunter Convention at this time was attended by literally thousands of BOWHUNTERS. The PBS and (P&Y?) would not hold their conventions when ours occurred due to the amount of guide/outfitters/hunters attending our convention. The Butler Pa BH Convention was the most beautiful set-up I’ve ever seen.
When you wanted to do something, you just friggin’ did it. I used to give away memberships every year….. not once did we get a return member. You get what you pay for…..there were tons of folks at ETAR joining the UBP. Many UBP shoots etc. now nobody volunteers to work those.
Ask yourself…. From the days of the 4 week season until today, with the best of seasons, Regs, SZ etc, All that the UBP pushed for, for BOWHUNTERS, WHO wasn’t there? A crossbow group. We’ve done all their work. They enjoy it, so if we pizz them off oh boy..:)
If you’re in a group that doesn’t particularly like or want to be a member of the UBP, then PROVE IT, Go hunt only hunt the 1st 4 weeks, go ahead and pass on Big Bucks, do wear orange during EVERY hunting season, don’t take advantage of the 50 yd SZ etc etc. :)
Now we worry about appeasing the other hunting groups…… don’t want to make anyone mad at us. lol. Hayl we used to REVEL at getting the “Ole Boy” groups pizzed. That’s because We ONLY worked for BOWHUNTERS. Ohhhhh the good ole days.
Peace out homies
Rut said: "I thought you said “arrows” Gene? Crossbows shoot BOLTS.................."
Actually modern crossbows shoot arrows. Medievil crossbows shot bolts which were largely constructed of metal, about 6 inches long and designed to penetrate armor. With that said, some crossbow and arrow manufacturers still erroneously refer to them as bolts, mostly to eliminate some of the confusion that can exist with sales and marketing.
Gene, man give it a rest..
Thanks for adding that info Dale. I figured you would chime in. I joined a few years after you, so I only know 4 of those characters. ;-)
And I believe past President and BOard Member Mike Faust is from Western Pa.
Well said. And I would add don’t Archery bear hunt either! : )
Gene- how long are your bolts?
This is my arrow. I have yet to see a crossbow that can shoot a 30” arrow! ;-)
Rut said: "Gene- how long are your bolts? This is my arrow. I have yet to see a crossbow that can shoot a 30” arrow! ;-)"
I don't own any bolts but the arrows I shoot range from 18 to 28 inches. The ones I shoot from my crossbow range from 18 to 22 inches. My compound and longbow I shoot 28 inches. Question for you, when you have a kid shoot a 22 inch arrow from a kids beginner bow, do you refer to them as bolts or arrows?
As far as wikipedia, you can find any infomation you want to to fit a narrative. If you did an google search and looked at the information objectively, you will find all kinds of back and forths on if modern crossbows shoot arrows or bolts. Modern crossbows versus medievil designs, etc.... We can disagree on it I guess. You can call them bolts. I will call them arrows, which they are.
5C said: "Gene, man give it a rest.."
So when people ask me a question I should just ignore them?
Gene- you’re right-we’re gonna have to disagree.
Modern or medievil.............it’s still a crossbow. And crossbows shoot bolts. The only ones who call them “arrows” are people that either don’t know any better or are trying to make the case that crossbows are “archery” to push their agenda.
Hey Rut. I asked you if a kid shoots a 22 inch arrow out of a youth bow, which is the same length as I shoot in two of my crossbows, is it a arrow or a bolt? It seems to be the length you are concerned about since you referenced a 30 inch arrow previously.
Bolts don’t have nocks, so if it was shot out of a bow, be it stickbow or compound, then it was an arrow.
Actually my crossbow arrows do have nocks. My Ravin arrows clip onto the string the same as your compound arrow does.
Here is the nock I use with the Ravin.
Try shooting those out of a real bow Gene...................I think you’ll discover the difference! ;-)
So thus far, it was the length of the arrow. Then it was nock. Then it was what it is shot out of that determines if a arrow is a arrow or a bolt. So to summarize, if you hit a tennis ball with a tennis racket you are hitting a tennis ball. If you hit the same tennis ball with a baseball bat, you are all of a sudden hitting a baseball, lol.
Anyways, I guess we can end it there.
"Anyways, I guess we can end it there."
True sign of maturity is not always having the last word.
Dale Hajas. I'm a life member and have been a member since the mid to late 80's. Before the UBP I was a member of the Pennsylvania Bowhunters Society. I remember the UPB fighting for the extra 2 weeks, and I thought it was a mistake, and I think many of our troubles are due to the extra 2 weeks and the attitude " screw the rest of the hunters," when the UBP was going for it. That extra 2 weeks cost us a lot of good will from the rifle hunters. Just look back at what they stuck us with. Youth season, early muzzleloader etc. Flintlock guys are still enjoying their season unmolested. I believe if we had been satisfied with what we had, we would have had a much better chance of keeping crossbows out of the general archery season. It was my opinion way back then, and still is today.
Woody- at the time, nobody was hunting those weeks, so how is it “screwing other hunters?” And most Bowhunters are also gun hunters, so I don’t get the “losing good will” with the rifle hunters comment.
And the reason flintlock guys are “enjoying the season unmolested” is because it is after Christmas when most of the hunters have either given up or filled all their tags.
Not often you get a bowhunter complain the season is too long.
I know there was a lot of rifle hunters bitching about bowhunters getting to hunt the rut. Maybe no one was hunting those 2 weeks, but rifle hunters weren't too happy about giving bowhunters more opportunities. Let's face it, we had 4 weeks of Oct, plus close to 2 weeks after Christmas, plus the ability to hunt the gun season with a bow. Then you have the rifle hunters with just a 2 week buck season and another 3 days for doe. When the chance to legalize crossbows came about, you can bet those rifle hunters were all for it. I believe a politician, Gotwald? Put the screws to bowhunters voting to legalize crossbows. Not sure if the 2 week extension had anything to do with that. I was never a rifle hunter, but did kill one deer with my flintlock 30 years ago. I just think it seemed a little greedy for bowhunters to get a couple extra weeks. Just opened the window for us to possibly lose out later. I think the inclusion of crossbows was a way others were able to take advantage of our season. Hey, I could be all wrong, but back then, I thought that extra 2 weeks would come back to haunt us. I imagine the thought of legalizing crossbows wasn't even considered when UBP went for the 2 week extension. Hind sight is 20/20, but sure wish the UBP would have worked to define what was considered a bow legal for archery season, and have that set in stone. I know most won't agree with my thoughts, but that's how I thought back then, and still do today.
I'm certainly not putting any blame on the UBP, they did what 99% + of what bowhunters wanted. For the few running the show, it's a thankless job for the 100,000 that enjoy the archery season. Dale's last sentence in his post reminded me of my thoughts back when UBP was fighting for the extra 2 weeks. "Now we worry about appeasing the other hunting groups…… don’t want to make anyone mad at us. lol. Hayl we used to REVEL at getting the “Ole Boy” groups pizzed. That’s because We ONLY worked for BOWHUNTERS. Ohhhhh the good ole days." Never helps to piss in someone's cheerios
Meanwhile, next week is the Baltimore Bowmen annual 4 Day Traditional Only Shoot. It'll be great spending time with the trad horde, something magical happens every day & night. I reckon I may see maybe two of you guys there flinging arrows.
Woody your opinion is valued! We have always considered equipment defining a bow Going back to virtually every instance of said examples of a bows description by the most respected organizations including hunting and archery orgs.
It is simply put “ The bow is hand held and hand drawn in the presence of game”
My statement about the Ole Boys pertains to the constant complaints about our 6 week season. At the time when we got the 6 week season we were 5th from the bottom in season length!! Did you know that? With hundreds of thousands of bowhunters we STILL AFTER gaining those 2 weeks, were 7th from the shortest whitetail deer archery season in the country.
Remember the Florescent Orange proposal? That was the Ole Boys of Govt. Allegedly :) The head of the law enforcement division of the PGC was retiring and the Ole Govt boys were planning on the Flo Orange law to be a gift. Seems that LE head was worried that bowhunters were poaching deer and were hard to detect because they wore camo all the time. Enter Bob Frye and an interview with UBP reps and a couple articles that made it across the state, stopping the ridiculous notion to wear Flo Orange all hunting year.
The UBP had challenged the political elite and was beating them at their own game. The crossbow guys were wining and dining those same elites at Horton crossbow hunting club.
Woody don’t EVER think your opinion does mean anything whether we agree or not!
Bob There is a small chance I make it to Baltimore. Its going to be a last minute decision.
Dale, I appreciate your response. I'm 74 and so much has changed since I started bowhunting. Lots more opportunities for bowhunters and multiple tags. Still enjoy my memories of that first Saturday in Oct with only one deer tag to last until the end of the late season. Do you drop the string on that first fat doe that comes by, or maybe that small racked 6 pointer? All the while thinking that if you do, that monster buck will sneaking by in the next minutes.
Lol woody. I reveled in squirrel hunting. Dressed in full camo too. Back in ‘74. I was pizzed off at bowhunters because they would always be in my Squirrell hotspots lol. Yeah they only had 4 weeks to hunt.:) Gosh who would've known back then….
The shot. It is what gets me going. Never was a big buck guy, although I have one P&Y. To me and my style, killing A deer at 45 yds isn’t as exciting as one at 6 yds with a selfbow:) doesn’t matter if its doe or a buck. Becoming a better caller or locator made me a better hunter. Eventually I learned 2+ and 3+ Yr old bucks have more meat, old does are the hardest critter to kill in the woods, and becoming a good hunter meant fooling your target on its own turf was most exciting to me. And I can still kill basket racked bucks if I want to, which may occur this year with meat shortages looming. All the best to you buddy:)
Dale, I think you were referring to our old arch enemy Bob "I hate Bowhunters" Godshall?
Hello Buck! Miss seeing you buddy…. Yes. And there were others….. too. Politicians hate it when they dont get do the successful planning:) Never forget common everyday bowhunters were successful despite crossbow companies catering to both sides of the political aisles. Maybe the only way politicians could achieve retribution was to pass a law settling the score so to speak.
Is Horton still in business?
I remember a number of years ago I was asked to leave the Whoreton booth at the Harrisburg Sportsmens show. The pimp was talking about how it's already cocked, and you only need to rest it on your shooting rail, line up the crosshairs on the scope and squeeze the trigger. I commented "Hmmm, just like a rifle." Quite a few laughed. He did not and asked me to move on.
