Contributors to this thread:
Do any of you guys hunt out west? I thought waiting for a bear tag or a bobcat tag in Wisconsin was ridiculous... I see guys talking about having 20 points in a draw? I know nothing about it but I'm assuming that means they have been applying for 20 years???? Good grief!!! Is that what it's become out there?
That is exactly what it has become out west! Some states used to allow most of the tags (75%) to go to those with the most points with a smaller percentage (25%) going into a random draw so everybody had a chance. Now those states said to heck with that and everybody is thrown into a random draw. I have 20 plus points in several states for multiple species and I'll more than likely never draw. When I do draw I'm done applying in that state and for that species. I burned 21 points last year on a CO elk hunt. I won't live long enough to ever draw that tag again in my life so it's adios Colorado!!
I don't apply for western hunts primarily because the process is such a stressor. I want the hunt to be an overall good experience, but if getting a tag is a hassle - it is off-putting at the onset. Best of luck to all who apply.
Are those states allowing people to apply for points for there new born baby? Not trying to stir up a hornets nest, just wondering if that's a factor driving wait times up? We keep hearing how we need way more new hunters because the sport is dying? Doesn't sound like it to me....
I don't want "way more hunters" lol. The hunter recruitment philosophy is based on dollars I'm not privy to. I used to believe that recruitment was the answer to keeping this sport alive, but the formula has other factors to contend with. Because of urban sprawl, population increase, privatization, and overall less land to hunt, there is less need to recruit more people. In other words, we will likely run out of the resources available to hunt, before we run out of new hunters to hunt them. I know that comes across as selfish, but everything I see, says this: More people and less opportunity. That doesn't mean it affects those people privileged enough to have the money or opportunity to hunt private land they currently hunt, but it likely says there's less of the public land to share. That also might mean that what you currently have will either cost you more, or you're going to have to learn to share it. If recruitment is what you desire, even if it's your own family members?
Getting back to the original topic, I've never hunted outside of Wisconsin, and I'm okay with that. Plenty of other things to do here. I love chasing Wisconsin deer and turkeys, but I also have other hobbies that fill the void. I simply put more emphasis on a few things, versus less emphasis on a lot of things. Africa might be the most bang for your buck if hunting other game is what interests you ?
Pete, I agree. Common sense tells you there's less space every year so consequently there needs to be less hunters. Add in money leasing up large chunks of land that use to be available and the noose tightens even more. You can keep creating as many seasons as you want, as many different weapon types as you want, under the guise that it creates more opportunity. But now it takes 10-20 years to draw an opportunity to hunt? This cry story about increasing participants to "save" the sport couldn't just be based on money and greed could it???? No way possible!!! Lol... I havent hunted out west, and have no desire to apply for 20 years to be able to do so. Sucks for the guys who love it and now are fighting for one tag in a lifetime..... Thank God for whitetails and turkeys here close to home...
I was single until the time I was 36, so I was able to hunt alot. At one time in my life, after college which was after service time, I worked till August and hunted on the money till Jan. I started to hunt out west, after moving back to Wis...... when I got a real job, and vacation time was tighter, I still went every 2 years.......................... If you have not experienced it, I would still go,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I had an opportunity to live and job transfer, to SW Colorado, a lateral transfer, for my line of work, but I liked the hunting, but would miss the fishing here, and I knew how crowded it would get...........................................
If you hesitate on going west, I would not. Great place to bowhunt, in also Nebraska, and South Dakota, and even though its more crowded, their is still good OTC hunts. I was never a trophy hunter, so a spike bull, or cow, at the time was okay with me......
Your only here on this planet once, so make the trip,,,,,, My last antelope hunt was 2011,,,,, After that, I did not like the heat anymore,,,,, My only regret is not hunting New Foundland, which I am trying to remedy, at this time......................
I was lucky to hunt, when it was easy to hunt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, good luck on your dreams to hunt the west,,,,,,,,
I am now sitting on 22 WY preference points for a moose. Been trying to draw it the last couple years but seems I keep coming up one point short. When I started I was paying $7.00 for a point, right now it is up to $150.00 a year. Then the license will be almost $2,000,00, if and when I get drawn.
Capt. Mike, I hope you draw the permit and have a wonderful experience and a successful hunt. I just can't bring myself to do it. If a western state allowed a hunter to pay for a future tag and pay for any tag increases in the interim period, I would buy an elk tag in some western state. Then, I could properly plan for the hunt and ensure a good experience. As it stands now, nonresident hunting is just a money grab by various western states with little regard for the species they are issuing all the tags for.
Capt, that must be incredibly frustrating to have that many years in and still be riding the bubble. I would think in 20+ years the game populations and the playing field could change drastically. I hope for your sake that there's still good moose hunting there when you draw...
There is still places to hunt west of here without getting deep into draws. The dakotas for Antelope , mule deer and especially whitetail are still pretty simple. Nebraska is another . Even For hunting whitetails in different habitat than wi and mn is fun for me. There is tons of public land that holds animals and can be hunted with little to no points. I enjoy studying maps and then being able to see it in person once I get there. I will be hunting north and South Dakota this year, it’s close enough that you can make multiple trips throughout the archery season if you don’t get one the first trip.
Yes, I hunt out west every year. I've hunted Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona. With the exception of Arizona I've hunted all of those states multiple times. If you're waiting 20 years to draw a tag then you are applying for extremely high end tags that are very low in numbers and very high in demand. That's your choice but you certainly do not have to apply for 20 years to have good hunts. In fact I would much rather hunt multiple times during those 20 years in a unit that takes 1-5 preference points than wait 20 years for that one coveted tag.
Most elk hunters that apply for those premier tags that take 20 years or more to draw set their goal at a 350" bull. I killed a 360" 6x7 bull in a unit that I drew with 3 points and I've seen other 350" class bulls in low point and even OTC units. Granted, your odds of killing a 350" class bull in a unit that takes 20 plus years to draw is greater but there's still no guarantee and you're only going to kill one in that unit in those 20 plus years because you'll only have that one tag. My philosophy is that I'd rather hunt a 3 point unit 6-7 times during those 20 plus years and possibly kill more than one 350" class bull. Also, you won't have so much pressure on yourself to kill a monster which might allow you to kill a smaller bull and be happy and less stressed about it because you won't have to wait 20 plus years to hunt there again.
I'm currently in the elk, deer and antelope preference point game in Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Arizona and Utah. I also apply in New Mexico but there are no points in NM so it's a straight lottery every year with all non guided non residents having the same dismal odds of drawing. If you buy/accrue points and don't apply for the high end tags, it might take a couple years to accrue a few points but then you can alternate between the different states so you can have quality elk hunts almost every year. If you throw in mule deer and antelope points and alternate between the 3 species and multiple states you could absolutely have at least one great hunt every year. There are some states that allow sharing and averaging of preference points and it's possible to team up with other hunters and draw tags much sooner than normal. In years past Idaho and Montana elk tags did not sell out so you could buy leftover tags if you didn't draw an elk tag elsewhere or if you wanted a second elk tag in another state. Also, Colorado sells OTC elk tags for approximately half of the units so that is another option. Idaho and Montana no longer have leftover tags due to increased demand but Colorado OTC or Utah OTC spike elk tags are still an option. Typically a Colorado OTC elk tag has been my fallback tag when I don't draw any other elk tag. By playing the preference point/application game in several states I've drawn numerous tags and in 23 years I've only hunted Colorado OTC 2 times because I did not draw another elk tag.
Personally, I want to elk hunt every year while I still can. There have been a few years that I've drawn 2 good elk tags in one season and had 2 great hunts. I've also had years when I've had elk and mule deer tags in the same unit.
I actually enjoy the research and future planning. It's fun to consider all the possibilities and anticipate all the great hunts, awesome scenery and great wild places to explore. I've had so many amazing experiences out west over the last 23 years and I can't imagine not having those memories, not to mention some awesome trophies and the great elk meat I live off of. It does take a lot of planning and some organization to keep everything straight but it's not that difficult. I just created a document laying out my preference point and application strategy for the next several years or so and I'm not sure if I'll be able to use all of my deer and antelope preference points that I have accumulated before I'm too old to hunt.
All that being said, yes it is true that demand for elk tags has increased dramatically over the past 10 years and it is getting harder to draw many of the good tags. These days there is so much info available online that removes all the mystery behind applying for western tags. That combined with all the YouTube and Internet experts that have made/are making a living out of teaching people how to elk hunt, and it has dramatically increased demand and competition for tags. The info available online is great but I curse a lot of these experts under my breath because they're profiting at the expense of greatly increased competition for available elk tags.
I personally think that there is no shortage of people hunting out west and the only problem with hunter recruitment is there are way too many people being recruited. So if the whole thought of applying out west sounds like too much hassle, then I'm not going to talk anybody out of it. Hopefully that philosophy will spread far and wide... If not, I guess I could give up elk hunting and cash in my 22 Wisconsin bear points....
CaptMike, a non resident Wyoming moose tag has always been difficult to draw. Unfortunately they just reduced the number of tags available to non residents and may have left guys like you swinging in the breeze with no hope of ever drawing a tag after investing for over 2 decades.
Yep, it is frustrating but as the years went by I was more and more invested in it which has kept me trying. The most frustrating thing is trying to plan other hunts while waiting to see if I get drawn.
CH Mike, Interesting.... How much of a factor is hunting pressure in those easier to draw units? I would imagine there's a whole bunch of die hard elk hunters using the same philosophy as you are with regards to getting tags to be able to hunt? How far do you have to pack in to get the place to yourself?
Thanks to a couple members here I have learned a lot about the western hunting experience and how to go about it, and now have a plan for hunting out west every year for the next 10 to 12 years. The state draw processes can be somewhat confusing, but if you spend a little time they aren’t to bad to figure out. Now that my son is 24 (I’m 48) he has enough time and $ to go, so this is an adventure that I can’t wait to spend with him. My daughter has also expressed a strong interest in going as well ( she actually just wants to go and camp, hike, and help pack out! But she won’t be able to for a few years as she is starting college and will be playing college volleyball). That’s the main reason I want to do these hunts… spend time with my now adult kids on new adventures building memories.
I haven't been west for 20 years now, but did it about every year for 10 years. Would love to go again, but I think I would be disappointed with the pressure now the way it sounds. We hunted CO OTC, CO draw and Idaho. Idaho was first come first serve and depending on what unit you were going to hunt, you had better get them as soon as they were offered. Some units had leftover tags. Those 20 year tags are trophy areas and if that's your bag that's fine. I wanted to hunt them and get into the red zone on bull elk, not caring much if they were 300 class animals. If I went again I would look for those draw areas with the 3 year wait just to have a limited number of hunters to contend with. Not sure about OTC hunts anymore from what I have heard.
Retro, the easier to draw units have more tags available than the 20 year tag units so obviously there will typically be more pressure in the easier to draw units. I've never hunted a premier unit that took 20 years to draw so I can't really compare. However I do know that in some of those premier units, tags are so rare and valuable that some hunters use/hire teams of "scouters" to glass, locate and keep tabs on big bulls for them. I've heard that some high spots will have multiple competing hunters/scouters glassing the same bulls from the same spot. Also, some water holes have dozens of trail cameras monitoring them looking for the biggest bulls. Therefore there can be a lot of "pressure" in premier units too. I personally would never want to be a part of that circus.
In the past 4 years I've hunted units that took 9, 6, 3 & 3 points respectively. I killed good bulls on all 4 of those hunts. On one of those hunts I hunted with a couple friends and on the other 3 hunts I was solo. I mainly hunted from my base camp during those 4 years returning back to camp each night and I typically hunted within about 3-4 miles of camp. On one of those hunts I did backpack in about 3 miles and set up a spike camp for a few days so I could branch out farther. All of those hunts had some competition from other hunters and it was an issue at times but the majority of the time I was able to get away from other hunters. In 2020 I hunted a unit that I drew with 6 points. I had hunted it twice in the past when I was able to draw it with 3 points or less and there was very little hunting pressure in previous years. Tags are pretty limited in that unit but in 2020 I experienced the heaviest hunting pressure I've ever seen and I think it was because everybody was off work due to Covid and able to hunt the entire season. Regardless, it was an awesome hunt and I was into elk nearly everyday for over 3 weeks. I haven't hunted an OTC unit since 2015 and I realize things have probably changed since then but I never had much trouble getting away from pressure. I've had some great hunts in OTC units and I killed my 3rd biggest bull in an OTC unit. In the past when hunting OTC I've typically backpacked in about 3-6 miles and set up a spike camp to get away from some of the pressure. I've heard from others though that there can be good hunting in overlooked areas close to roads.
I personally know a handful of hardcore elk hunters that play the game and apply in multiple states but I also know a few guys that only apply in 1 or 2 states and if they don't draw one of those states they just don't hunt since they've limited their options. Personally, I want more options. When I started building points I had a few states that I alternated between so I could hunt each of them every 2-3 years or so and I had a couple states that I was building points for the long haul thinking those two states would be my future 20 year plus premier tags with the best odds of killing huge bulls. Recently I realized that great hunting experiences are more important to me than trying to kill monster bulls. So I decided to cash in those points as soon as I could draw a "decent" tag rather than hold out for a premier tag. Last year I cashed in 9 points on a mid tier tag and had one of my best hunts ever. I'm sure those 20 year plus tags are awesome hunts but I've had some incredible hunts and killed some really good bulls over the past 20 years by hunting lower and mid tier units as often as I could. I have no regrets cashing in those points last year and I'm working on a deal that will allow me to hunt there a couple more times in the next few years. In my opinion that's way better than waiting 20 plus years for one hunt.
30 different hunts in 9 different states for myself, 4 different states and 10 hunts for my kids. Yes it’s a major chore to keep applying but it’s part of the game. My points range from 19 to 3 and like Mike stated I could draw some easier tags but swing for the fence on some and hunt more regularly some places that are easier to draw. The next 10 years I will be on some epic adventures due to my diligence in applying
I haven't hunted out west in over 25 years. Never missed a year for 30+ years. It took me a while to ween myself off hunting out west. My first hunt to Colorado was $150.00 round trip which included two deer tags. My, how things have changed. We never used a guide either, just did our homework.
Just got an email that again, I was unsuccessful in the moose draw. Oh well, another point, another year!
I truly feel sorry for any "hunter" that has not went on at least one elk hunt! If you did any amount of research you would see you dont need to wait 20 years for an elk, antelope or mule deer license, unless you want to.
Hoot, that was one of the funnest parts, talking to biologists, looking at topo maps, learning everything possible about the area, the animals the hunt. Then, get out there and really hunt what you were looking at the whole time prior. Then get into the red zone and it all comes together.
Live - Exactly. We always did our homework by doing exactly what you said. It eventually all comes together. We always arrived a week early to scout and learn the land.
Never played the point game . When I plan a hunt I'm planning it for this year . But I'm talking about Deer & Elk . I understand the need for strict control on certain critters.
I do apply for a Sheep tag every year but that's a lottery type drawing. If I got one of those I would be happy to cancel whatever my plans were .
Well Ruger then nowadays I think you're pretty much limiting yourself to Colorado OTC elk and maybe Oregon. Deer in Colorado and I believe pretty much all other western states is all draw. Not sure if there are many, if any western states where you can buy a decent mule deer tag OTC. Maybe South Dakota if you consider that "western"? I know Arizona has some OTC deer units but they're not the best units and they're reducing them too.
The reality is, you're going to have to plan ahead if you want some decent options. Unless you buy a tag at some banquet or auction.
Apply Apply Apply Apply Apply !!!!!!!!!!!Some units take a lot of points and some don't but you'll be ready as hunting plans change.
Capt, Is there a Governors tag for WY moose? :>)
I like the system. It was designed as a way to combat the increased efficiency of hunters, brought on by advanced weapons, technology, travel, desire to hunt more states, etc. Something had to give, that would be opportunity.
Retro, I am not really sure if there is or is not. What I am sure about is that if there is, I cannot afford it!
Capt, I looked it up and it said in 2021 there was a Wyoming governors moose tag that sold for $40,000.00. There's still some deals out there if a guy watches. Lol...
Times have sure changed, Mike I lived in NV from 1978 to 1990 .Muledeer archery were very easy to come by . If we didn't draw NV we went to UT or ID . Never missed a hunt . Black tail we drew CA or OR every year. Elk , we hunted OTC areas in ID or CO . We were not trophy Elk hunters , hunted them every 4 years but we hunted hard from dark to dark , with the right calls , & always the 2 nd week of Sept. . Over the years we harvested 13 Bulls out of 16 tags with 2 P&Y 6 x 6 's .
The only time I did the Point thing was trying for a Desert bighorn for 13 years . Didn't draw .
Retro, as a non-resident I have drawn a Utah limited entry archery elk tag with 4 points and three Idaho limited entry rifle elk tags. However to do that I beat 4%, 2%, 10% and 2% odds.
Between those hunts I killed a few on capped OTC tags in Idaho as a NR. Demand for those first come first serve tags has grown exponentially over only 8 years and echo what Mike said above. For example. The OTC tags go on sale in December. Only 8 years ago I could drive up there in July to scout and buy a tag at the gas station. Now they are sold out literally in seconds on December 2nd and very hard to get.
Couple demand thanks to the InstaFaceTuber’s making a living at giving out info with each states genuine disdain for non-residents and it’s a recipe for less opportunity. Killing the elk is almost the easy part now. Some general season archery mule deer tags that take no points can be good but the same internet whores are ruining that as well. Quality has really gone down for “likes and subscriptions”.
Advanced weaponry(compound bows for one) certainly had an impact, along with some other minor factors.
Increase in demand (more hunters) is as much of a factor as anything...
There is an increase in demand, but very little from the traditional crowd.
In other words, the compound bow drastically increased the demand.
There are posts all over these forums that state the compound bow was responsible for getting many into archery, and for keeping guys in the game. This very much increases the demand for western licenses.
The compound bow gained popularity in the 1970's and has been the standard for 50 years or so. Most archery hunters alive today grew up with and are most familiar with compound bows. Many of those people probably never considered traditional equipment because they grew up considering compound bows as "standard" archery equipment. Personally, I started before there was such a thing as a compound bow and I thoroughly enjoyed shooting my recurve (and still do) and killing my first deer with a recurve. I bought my first compound in the 70's but would have continued to hunt with my recurve if the compound bow had never been invented. I'm not sure what your point is but it's doubtful that we'll ever turn the clock back to the days before the advent of compound bows when all bow hunters shot recurves and longbows.
Compound bows have been the standard since the 70's, and therefore they have been used by the majority of archery hunters applying for western tags for the past 50 years or so. I understand what you're saying about compound bows getting more people into and keeping more people involved in archery and I don't disagree. However, anything prior to 50 years ago really is ancient history in regard to this discussion about western draws and for the most part is irrelevant. In other words, I think that talking about a time before compound bows existed and comparing the status of western draws 50 years ago to the situation today is not a very reasonable comparison. If you think about it, you're talking about a half a century ago. It might be time to stop lamenting the days before the compound was invented...
I was simply explaining the evolution of the limited draw, quota seasons, evolving antler size restrictions, etc. Such limitations are necessary to provide protection for various species. Yes, these limitations on opportunity were largely non existent during archery seasons BEFORE the advanced compound bows gained in popularity. That was a long time ago, but never the less, not simply coincidence. The popularity and success of the compound bow in attracting masses of hunters during archery seasons was a MAJOR factor leading to the current situation. Not saying that is bad, I am all for limited drawings, quota seasons and compound bows. However, nobody should wonder why limitations in opportunity are necessary, and how we got to this point.
Where legal in the west (or on any species requiring a drawing), the long range scoped and cocked crossbow will also have a significant impact on opportunity. I assume most of you will view this is a positive development. I might add, the modern compound is far more efficient than those from 50 years ago. There has been an evolution in designs and technology which makes the compound bow easier for the shooter, and a more superior weapon at a bit longer distances, especially when compared to the compound bows of the 1970's. That is a good thing, so are limited drawings, quota seasons and antler restrictions on some species. There will be more!
I do not consider crossbows a positive development.
"I do not consider crossbows a positive development." Nor do I. IMO, after 50 years of use, the ramifications of the compound are well known. Technology with respect to the compound is waning as most improvements that could be made already have been made. Technology with the crossbow is still in its infancy as demand for them is a more recent occurrence. Comparing the two is apples to oranges as the ability to effectively use the crossbow requires no practice or dedication of time and so it has, and is, bringing many more people into what used to be a relatively limited season structure.
" Archery Advancements " & I use the term loosely are not over yet . There's a guy in Milwaukee that's just about perfected his wire arrow . 3/16 in wire , wind & friction resistance. Very little drop from 20 to 40 yards .
There's a company in Ill working on an arrow that's fired out of a .410 shotgun with a special 2 inch shell . 300 fps . Who knows what's next ..
In 1965 4 of us were practicing for a hi school archery tournament at Whitnall park . A guy shows up to shoot with a recurve . We all agreed that a recurve with its blazing speed gave him an unfair advantage . Nothings changed .
Ruger that company in ILL is outdated, by a long shot. You can go to Scheels and order the "crackshot" 22 rifle, with a picanny rail, and fiber optic sites. Nice little gun, made by Traditions, however it also includes a scoped barrel, and is replaced by one screw. Once on, that barrel allows you to load a 2219 arrow. open up the single shot, put in a 27 caliber blank, and off you go..... dead accurate out to 70 yards, 450 to 460 fps,,,,,,
You can see it on You Tube.................... price is $469.00
I’ve been applying since 1996 in ten states and have as many as 26 points in some. But it’s still not easy to draw premier units. I’ve not drawn in any random lottery systems in ten years, only preference tags like Colorado elk this year. Burning 25 there this year. Statistically should have drawn several longshots in the last ten years but it just didn’t happen.
Looks like I'll be spending some time in the Bighorn Mts again in Sept!!
Congrats on the elk draw.
Congrats, Randy. You deal with grizzlies much in The Bighorns?
What time are you coming out on Sunday, to the shoot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,?
No grizz in the Bighorns Reggiezpop but there are a few black bears running around. No wolves either at least not yet.
Anybody else draw anything noteworthy? Really really lean in my circle. Gonna have to rethink a bunch of things in 2023 to keep in a couple hunts from now on
Johnny Ringo had the best draw.
Congrats Randy! I drew Wyoming general.
November, Good for you! How good is the tag you drew? Is it one that you wait a long time for?
Congrats Mike..... another bull only has a few months to live in WY if you have a tag!!! It is a good tag retro. I have been really lucky and it's a unit I've drawn in the past. One year there were 4 of us that drew and we went 3 for 4 on good bulls.
If I ever go on another elk hunt, it would be Wyoming or some other low point draw unit. Congrats you guys that drew tags.
Good deal November.. Good luck to all you guys going out west....
Thanks guys, I'll have the entire season to get it done and it should be fun. This year I applied with a friend and his son that I met on Bowsite. They shared their points with me guaranteeing me drawing in the regular draw. They'll be arriving in Wyoming sometime after the 10th of September and I'll hunt with them for part of the season. I'll share some elk hunting mentoring in exchange for their generosity sharing their points with me. It should be a win-win.
My friends Wyatt and Jake from Texas who I also met through Bowsite and have hunted with in Wyoming and New Mexico in the past also drew the same tag and will arrive mid September. My friend Les who I originally met on Bowsite also drew the tag so I guess it's going to be a Bowsite hunt/reunion. Should make for a good story.
Mike I still say you and Les had the best Elk hunting thread hands down. I felt like I was there with you guys. Good luck.
I always enjoyed those threads also,,,,,, all the best to the elk crew
Lost track of Les when I kicked Bookface out of my life. That should be a great time in WY for you Mike..... best of luck!
Thanks Randy good luck to you too! I hunted 45 in the Bighorns in 2014 and it was a great hunt.
Play the game. Put in for 5 states for years. Should draw 2 for sure, maybe 3 tags in my home state this year. Next year I will draw 2 tags in NV.
