Bowsite.com

Here's the whole meeting, and there are some breaks, so it isn't really 9+hrs long...

At approx the 30min mark there's a map of the current CWD "footprint" in KS to date. It's unbelievable how relatively quickly the disease has spread in KS. The discussion before and after is eye opening, especially considering the effects on older bucks.

1:10 - MO's stance on curbing CWD(MO is also helping to fund testing in KS)

1:23 - CWD Alliance map of positive CWD detection Nationwide, and speech by CWD Alliance Chair

2:13 - "Baiting is in the crosshairs" Commissioner Lauber

4:10 - A "Special" guest...you will laugh(remind you of anyone Zack? lol). @ 4:23 a cameo, and @ 5:23

4:29 - KDWP CWD Marketing Campaign and more internal discussion

5:12 - Boning out/gutless method discussion to help stop spread

5:21 - Discussion of taking more doe's, and even young bucks, to curb the spread

5:24 - Starts the discussion on turkey Reg's, including a possible draw for NR's going forward. Back half of the meeting devoted to aquatic discussions.

You may not consider CWD a problem...but you'd have to be an idiot not to recognize it's effect on cervid populations. TON's of info in these presentations to show the massive, and accelerated, rate of spread. Sampling/testing and the funds appropriated are key, but confining and prevention are the only real ways to get in front of it. You know how I feel about baiting, that's neither here nor there, if eliminating it statewide would help save the herd then it's the right thing to do.

Is killing a deer every year more important?

Baiting during season in MO is illegal but the WMs in Chilicothe and Richmond every year have feeders and corn for sale, including deer corn. These are the only two I am familiar with but a safe bet is others carry it as well.

Wildlife agencies across the United States have long opposed baiting, given that it concentrates deer artificially and keeps them returning to small areas they steadily foul with urine, feces and saliva. Although scientists have not yet proven how CWD spreads, the disease is triggered by rogue proteins called “prions,” which deer shed in bodily wastes. University of Wisconsin researchers have documented prion concentrations at bait sites in CWD-infected areas.

Still, many hunters aggressively fight baiting bans and claim baiting is no different than hunting over crop fields or food plots. Baiting foes, however, note that once those food sources are harvested or eaten, deer move on. And even when crops and food plots are flush with food, deer spread out and don’t converge on the same square yard daily to eat. In contrast, baiters typically replenish the food in that square yard several times weekly for two or more months.

Dr. Grant Woods, owner/creator of “Growing Deer TV” and The Proving Grounds in southwestern Missouri, said hunters should not minimize the disease potential at bait piles.

“By its nature, bait has more disease risks than food plots,” Woods said. “I see huge differences. Whether a food plot has corn, clover, soybeans or whatever, deer bite the edible part and it’s gone. Even if it grows back, it won’t regenerate quickly, so the deer leave. They don’t put their heads back into the same little spot for their next bite.”

That’s why biologists think bait sites can become Petri dishes for culturing bacteria and other disease-causing agents. “It’s much more likely for contagious diseases to transmit when deer keep putting their faces in the same place alongside each other, especially when someone pours more food into that spot tomorrow, next week, next month and next year,” Woods said.

Despite such arguments against baiting, attempts to ban it typically end up in state legislatures.

"Baiting and feeding continues to put Wisconsin’s deer herd at risk to other serious diseases CWD is not the only infectious disease that threatens Wisconsin’s deer herd. One, Bovine Tuberculosis (TB) warrants special attention because the link to baiting and feeding is clear. TB is an infectious bacterial disease that is spread from animal to animal through inhalation of infectious aerosols or ingestion of other infectious body fluids (e.g. saliva). TB bacteria can live outside of an animal for as long as 16 weeks on a frozen feed pile (Whipple and Palmer 2000 cited in Garner 2001) and Garner (2001) demonstrated that supplemental food increased close contact among wild deer through a number of mechanisms. Garner (2001) also demonstrated extensive home range overlap between a TB-positive deer and 15 other radio-collared deer in northern Michigan. Recent epidemiological research suggests that baiting and feeding of deer enabled the TB outbreak in Michigan to persist and spread and that declines in TB prevalence were associated with a ban on baiting and feeding (O’Brien et al. 2002)."

"Moreover, browse is typically held aloft on the plant stem such that fecal contamination is less likely"

"Reduction of contact through a ban on baiting and feeding is likely very important to eradicating or containing a CWD outbreak. Epidemiological models fit to real-world data on CWD outbreaks in mule deer predict that local extinction of infected deer populations is likely (Gross and Miller 2001)"

I'm looking forward to a possible ban. I'm so sick of seeing feeders and I would gladly fly a warden around to identify non-compliant lessors and landowners.

If you'd have seen the state of that Muley buck I put down last Fall, I think you'd do anything within your power to stop that from happening... to any animal.

Last night at the KBA Rendezvous I met an 86 year old man that sold me the story of how he started bow hunting when he was ten. Self made bow, arrows, turkey feathers and old Iron Indian heads. He was great to listen to a mans man no short cuts. I admire those type of people hard way of living but living to the fullest.

Biggest hurdle I see is getting something like this past our wonderful folks in Topeka ! Heaven help us, it might effect the bottom line !

Not to mention the enforcement issue. Have no idea how many tons of corn the local Co-op sends out in 50# bags, but when they load out pallets at a time, it's a lot.

Yes many many people would cheat and continue to bait and when they did it would become very effective but many would be caught and ticketed, it's pretty easy to enforce

I'm working my way through the video and a commissioner brought up testing time turn around and contamination. A lab here in Montana had to use a 20-50% bleach solution for 30 minutes to kill the prions. You could easily submerge knives but wooden cutting boards present a real problem along with other touched surfaces and tools.

What does it look like to have the test submitted and wait for a couple weeks to determine the results. You've probably not cleaned the knives, tools etc.....stored meat in the freezer and then have to dispose of it pending a positive result.

It looked like the prevalence among bucks 2.5 years and older was very high and deer being asymptomatic until the final two weeks before they die makes it nearly impossible to visually inspect deer.

First, I use the gut-less method and avoid cutting through bones. Next, I cut and wrap backstraps and tenderloins. I use the dehydrator and make jerky out the entire deer. I boil and whiten the skull. When I head for home, I have some packages of jerky and some frozen steak packages and a skull.

Because of the time it takes just to hunt and process one deer, I don't even try to take a doe. I don't believe there are many processing facilities for deer that far west either. I think it would be a nightmare from a liability standpoint to try and process deer as a business. How do you sanitize a grinder and meat saw or cuber between each deer? I noted earlier how laborious it is to kill the prions in a strong, submersed bleach solution.

Also, Oklahoma is an anomaly with game farms and baiting allowed.......and apparently ZERO cases?

There seems to be a correlation between density and disease, is it enough to conclude causation? If yes, then density should be reduced not with only eliminating feeders but sheer numbers as well.

Will we be serious about this and doe hunt and quit managing habitat? If baiting is bad, what about the fixation on trophy hunting versus herd management?

Pat’s winter picture of the herd on his beans, any CWD detected in that area?

So much the scientists don’t know yet, hope we proceed with caution before making any wholesale changes. Heard one person express their belief that CWD has been here a long time and biologists know this but some are using this “crisis” to try for more funding. Others are using it for different goals.

In MO where the state went in and killed everything they could, it made a lot of the farmers happy, but put a hurt on motels, restaurants etc. A lot at stake!

If you take a little time and listen to the biologists and their data driven presentations..as you did, it opens eyes.

The baiters will always find an excuse to continue poisoning, they simply cannot hunt and need the crutch.

I appreciate all of us trying to have a mature conversation where differing opinions can be expressed. Thank you!

That being said, I am not a baiter. Hunting our MO farm where baiting is not allowed, ending baiting will not change in any way how I pursue hunting. I do believe there are legitimate reasons people might bait, whether we call it hunting or shooting.

Curious when Walter said in just the last few years GA started allowing it. Had a good talk with him and what he shared about hunting there and here was eye opening.

Bait is used at times to bring numbers down in areas where they need to be, including by state sharp shooters. Recently, a well respected individual here told me they used corn at the end of the season to kill a number of does that the farmer asked to be removed. They have limited time to do it, and the LO limits who he allows on his land. Managing density with this approach might help reduce the spread of CWD.

None of us really know all of the answers. Herd health should be the focus IMHO. Thanks again!

MDC calls it a CWD hotzone, all deer within this 10 square mile initially were the focus of nighttime sharpshooters over bait.

Landowners were contacted, unlimited tags were distributed, told to shoot them, call and MDC would test them.

CWD has now been detected in about all corners of the state with the intense testing the past 5 or 6 years. What started as a handful of counties in north Missouri and MDC’s attempt to contain just confirmed it’s been here for awhile, deer didn’t travel to the boothilll or Branson area from north Missouri.

You don’t want to test your deer if offered, you sure as hell don’t want a positive found. As already said it’s been around since 67’.

Google Wisconsins battle with CWD about 20 years ago, year round shooting could not contain cwd.

EHD and blue tongue wipe out more deer in a year than CWD ever will. It can’t be stopped or contained.

So do we kill all the deer so they don’t die from CWD?

I don’t think Kansas will test to the level MDC did due to cost.

Whether it’s fishing or hog hunting, you are OK with baiting. You draw the line on baiting in a different location than others, you have a different opinion and that’s ok to me.

Stalking bears in heavily forested MB is not the same as stalking in wide open ID. The reason outfitters were given more tags this year after two years of reduced harvests because of Covid is that bears, like hogs, must have their population controlled to avoid problems. But yes, I do not call it hunting, mainly because I do very little of the work.

We are told to follow the science, unless we are talking about Covid. I am skeptical of both at this point.

Did more than a half dozen fly-ins to Canada. Caught all fish on plastics, no live bait allowed in our group. Fishing and hunting have lots of similarities, electronics make both easier, and I am including cameras. If baiting should not be called hunting, compounds should not be called archery. And we know some feel that way, so let’s keep the focus on herd health.

Thanks! Our Carroll county MDC biologist was one of the sharpshooters whom I heard the “stories” from first hand. Exactly what you posted is what he told me, and also doubted it would work.

Can someone point out where I said using bait makes you a bad fisherman? Or me saying using bait makes you a bad hunter? Anyone?

What I will say is I believe some of us think hunting their way is the only way. Patrick, you ever hunt the big north woods? That’s hunting IMO. Or the large Deep South jungle thickets?

Hunting Midwest broken habitat is fairly simple, especially if you grew up on or around the land. Getting even more simple with all of the habitat destruction. We read guys going to the same stands each year, or guys hunting corners of timber dumping into agriculture fields, or hunting sparse travel corridors…maybe slightly more difficult than hunting bait?

My hunting for this season began with my note taking last season. I put up two portables today, one in the same tree as last year, and one in a different location based on the adjustments I saw deer make last year due to my minimal pressure. 6 more to go, half will be new locations. 14 ladders, several blinds, keeping them fresh.

Agree with Slate, if something is detrimental to the herd that can be controlled, we should fix it. But I am hearing too many experienced hunters saying otherwise, and a few anti-baiters just wanting us to draw the conclusion they desire. Can’t do that, but I could care less if they eliminate baiting in small areas and cameras during season because I will still kill deer.

Example - I know of several people who bait. Total acres would be about 4,000. Between all those people I’m estimating from 1,200-1,500 bushel of corn is used per year. How many are out there baiting or the morally acceptable term “supplemental feeding”. Outfitters throw it out like parade candy. I’m guessing millions of dollars of U.S. corn is given to deer/wildlife every year. We’ve got a corn vending machine at the local gas station.

Sit here talking about “herd health” and “science” and we are throwing a food source that could feed millions to a damn deer because, you know, “science”. Stupid.

Try to focus on myself, I don’t bait to hunt deer, aggressive on doe harvests as needed, try to improve habitat, share the bounty…just think this approach will do more long term good for both our passion and the wildlife. I am open to the idea I may be completely wrong.

Good point Ray!

Funny to watch the baiters here twist words to meet their MO...actually it's quite sad. It's sad that they not only can't hunt, but that they're happy with poisoning the very animal they seek. Cain't fix stupid.

I am ok with two weeks dedicated to trad only right during the peak of the rut. Probably a lot less guys would purchase the other equipment then. Cameras, you had junk. Ok with not in the season but love the wildlife pictures at all times. Also nice when you witness your hard work paying off, it encourages you to do more of it.

Kyle, I don’t know if you keep referring to me as a baiter, I do not bait deer. But I bet you we could be dropped into a midwestern farm neither of us were familiar with and I would hold my own against you with neither of us using decoys or bait to pull deer away from their normal routines.

You remember Ron that used to post here? He hunted my farm on the first day I ever hunted deer. Had scouted the previous late winter. Went in the dark, hung a stand, 2 hours later he was helping me drag a two year old buck. No bait, no plots yet.

We discussed honor, so I will appreciate if you quit accusing me of something I don’t do. That is what is sad. But if you believe I am baiting, please call MDC and report your hunch to the Carroll county CO. In fact, I encourage you to do so.

I agree with Walter, just enjoy the outdoors. You can have the last word.

I am kidding Patrick, if you knew me personally we would laugh together at that. I know you are extremely intelligent. We just have to agree that I am right, I mean agree to disagree:-)

The hypocrisy is pungent.

All you have to do is watch the presentation(s) attached above, CWD is killing deer in over 20 counties in KS now. The Biologists discuss and make recommendations based on facts, the answers to curbing this and other diseases...spread through contact...aren't that hard to discern.

Two arguments have been presented here to end deer baiting with corn;

One, it spreads disease or is believed to.

Two, baiting is not hunting, it provides an unfair advantage.

The comparison then was baiting is not fishing, yet people will fish with bait and call it fishing while criticizing hunting baiters.

That is hypocrisy. It doesn’t matter that it is a fish, or has a smaller brain, the bait gives the fisherman an advantage just like corn gives the shooter an advantage. The proof is bait is not allowed in tournaments.

Thanks for injecting some humor!

If you go through everything posted including the meeting, it SEEMS to me they are trying to say food plots are different because the plant portion that is eaten is above ground level and therefore not touching fecal matter/ urine/other fluids. I don’t completely buy this. Look at Pat’s winter bean field. I am sure some of those bean pods fell on the ground. I had a radish plot this past winter, they would pull them out of the ground AND bite them off below ground level.

Will there be some regulations on plots? Minimum size, plant types…?

Maybe some don’t have experience with plots, but they are not like a feeder on a timer, and deer get educated very quickly. A poster here witnessed at least 40 deer on my winter plot during a snow storm and none came close enough. This was on 4 acres. But, folks with an axe to grind will still call it baiting.

That said, I don’t hunt over either.

Walleye and catfish must be like hogs then, ok to bait them? ;-)

I will probably do it this year with a 3D target in front of me because I practice elevated shooting at home, all year long. But, but, but...come on, another attack of which you don't know squat about. That's the sad state of your character. Get some help, I would suggest finding a good partner, and would have said a woman but I am getting the idea you might have some gender confusion because you already have the nagging perfected.

The stand, and empty feeder, is on the creek way, a natural travel corridor between the nursery on our east and the agriculture on our west. If they want corn they will find it at both of those locations as both bait for hunting. It's a travel corridor similar to the one you hunt on that your neighbor baits, just to give you a better visual. Hope Land Owner is reading this stuff and will be able to use it to defend himself against your accusations.

And it is always about this time we get a new handle that shows up with a story like having been watching for 10 years and some more BS. Another of your allies, no doubt a charter member of the same ethically and morally superior club.

Jeff, I have to agree that it appears you have little experience with plots. One of the biggest reasons to do plots that was not mentioned, they are not just for deer! I love having more deer and turkey, yes, but also love the songbirds, the bees, owls, eagles, etc.

Other reasons, to place a food source in a better location for wildlife to use and spend less energy getting to that source, be better protected and less visible from predators. This is something I think I have a knack for. Designing habitat layout is critical!

Plots also replace some habitat loss.

Managing native when possible is BETTER no doubt. We try and do that. In the last few years farmers in my area have started to use cover crops extensively. I broadcasted rye grain into the beans after my farmer harvested them, and I am adjusting to the fact that I can do this and put less ground into plots while having plenty of winter food for them. It's a win-win, better for the wildlife and better for the soil. The new CRP programs allows less acreage in plots, maybe because of the fact that farmers are using cover crops more?

As you know, access has changed as well. No longer can we watch deer hitting a wheat field and secure permission from the owner. Plots can help mimic how we used to hunt. I have two blinds on our big four-acre plot. I hunted one of them twice last year, once during a storm and I didn't want to just sit in the cabin, and one other time when Robin wanted to just sit with me and watch the sun set. Other than that, I am hunting travel routes to the plot, back in the timber. And when the deer adjust because of my presence, I observe, hang a lone wolf in the new location and will more often than not harvest a deer on the first sit, as I said I would last year, and then documented doing just that. Maybe you don't consider that hunting, but I do. I also consider firearms hunting to be hunting. I get we can have different opinions, and I am OK with that. Yes, I really am flexible. I am sick of my way or highway approach. I wonder how many NR are turned off by it as well? If we could recruit just a quarter of them for the KBA our membership would probably double.

I know you are smart enough to have received the point. You claim to be against baiting, except for hogs and fish. Bears can be just as much a nuisance as hogs, so your view of being against bear baiting doesn't hold water to not only me, but a lot of people who have actual experience with them.

Deer can also be baited when needed. Look up Shawnee Mission Park. The deer became over-populated by all accounts. They allowed bow hunting for the first time, over bait piles. Guys wounded deer at 15 yards because of all the "pressure" I guess. Other guys couldn't qualify to participate because they failed to hit a 6" plate at 20 yards, pressure I guess from being watched. (Man, think if these were 40 yard shots;-))

Not enough deer were taken, they closed the park for two days and brought in sharp shooters.

Yes, I am OK with baiting if it is needed. I guess again I am flexible and do not want to tell others how to hunt. I focus on myself and my approach. Criticize me to make me think and question myself, that is good. Criticize to feed your own insecurities, well we know what happens. And you are not a member of the latter. We just disagree, I am OK with that. We will never meet and so who cares what the other thinks really. Hope that is fair enough?

I will try and find where my cameras captured a quail covey rise on our food plot. A real treasure for me, and why I don't want to ban cameras. Our MDC biologist received it in his email the same day. Yes, I was gloating a little.

I think a lot more folks are doing the habitat stuff than many realize it here, in fact I know so. PMs saying "thanks" from strangers convince me of that. Many just don't want to say anything because of what we see here, unfounded attacks on character just because someone disagrees.

If baiting is eliminated will some people do more habitat work? Probably, frost seeding is simple and effective. Will many do it, I doubt so. I agree with some who have said baiting is like an easy button, and that is human nature. Probably be a bigger increase in trespassing than there would be habitat work, but I really don't have any better idea than you.

One of the points above that was made is with plots the food is available 24-7, and also not during hunting seasons. Notice how many of the buck pictures I posted from the micro thread are at night. They come to the plot at night when it is safe, and hit the feeders while they are there. Deer are not coming to our property now during daylight as they don't have to because of what is going on around us. Feeders will not bring them in during shooting hours when they have plenty of "safe" food available nearby.

Patrick will probably give me grief for saying this, but you can tell how much a person really knows about their target wildlife by what they say regarding plots and feeders. I have learned a ton and that is why I have confidence to hunt a new piece of midwest real estate and be successful if deer are there. Guys who have hunted the same parcels for decades know how to hunt that parcel, and sometimes they are convinced of their hunting prowess because of that. And I am not talking about you or Patrick.

Our four acre plot is in the middle of our property surrounded by woods. Two blinds the deer never get close enough for a bow shot during daylight hours, they are educated. On four acres, they have tons of places to come out and are constantly adjusting to pressure. You have enough experience to know a 1-acre plot will get burned out quickly, and just like bait piles the older mature deer will check it out and outside of the rut will not make a mistake.

The one-acre food plot that we removed this year on our home property...a total of four deer were harvested from 2002 to 2021, none had head gear. We would see deer often while sitting on our screened-in porch 100 yards away. They know when we are in predator mode, I am convinced of that.

Honestly, I think you found an article that confirms your bias. Certainly, I take more deer on our farm now than when we first purchased it, as a result of the habitat improvements. But I have had better luck hunting specific oaks that I did TSI around, and fertilized them, than I have hunting on plots. I hunt the plot edges in a Double Bull for Turkey in the Spring but sitting on the plot with a bow is not productive enough for me to warrant doing it more than occasionally for deer.

Mike, my bear hunting partner, is coming the first weekend to try and kill the biggest on my place. He will get a lot more pleasure out of it than I will. The trophy hunting is what turns me off. Sorry if I appear to be in full-offense mode, I am not. I just can't wait to be in a stand, the middle to end of October is the most enjoyable to me as our tree colors will be worth it, hopefully.

We are all biased. Food plots are much different than bait piles.

I am becoming more convinced that long term, native/natural/regenerative is even better.

In the meantime, I like plotting…the work, the visible results, the response by wildlife.

I think it was ks chas that told us he tried the frost seeding clover and had a really good stand. This was years ago.

It’s fun, much more rewarding than pouring bags, IMO, biased opinion;-)

I don’t watch TV, never those shows so I can’t say. I have only used my top pin for a long time, 35 or more, given my ability, I will wait for a better shot.

I guess I stand corrected, apologies. Youth have rifled hunted my blinds, last year a 14 year old was not comfortable taking a 72 yard shot with a youth .243. It never came closer.

Have you seen all of the Maverick blind pictures I have posted with deer and Turkey in front of them? Seldom happens when occupied.

Laugh at me for this one, but I am convinced wise, older does teach their following where danger lurks.

A couple of years ago I watched as a large hawk swooped down and killed a field rat eating our mushy turnips.

Hunting is never going back to what it was, I am for adapting, trying to make the best of it while creating a win-win that also benefits wildlife.

They realize those who respond to surveys and have negative hunting experiences often quit buying licenses and they don't hear from them again. It can result in not having an increase in negative responses.

The basic budget including ALL revenue is basically 100 Million. Even with increases in licenses and license fees, they still face a 9 Million shortfall. The committee member lamented that they have no control over slashing the budget and he would start with salaries if allowed to do so. The recession/inflation and fuel prices have put additional pressure on their budgets.

(they didn't say this) But I imagine they will be hesitant to make any major changes that could potentially lose them revenue when they're already in a shortfall.

“ I got some 10 point bucks down in that brush I used to own and those outfitters and guides are mad at me cause I told them where to stick it”

“ We should close the turkey season”

“ You all should ask Jeff Bezos’s ex-wife for the 9 million cause she’s giving away money and you need it”

“ get rid of those shooting houses and pheasant farms “

Even though I don't hunt plots I do like to watch deer from the house. Also plant fruit trees (I do like to eat an apple or pear while cooling down from a run, so it isn't just for the deer).

It was mentioned that our deer don't need the nutrition, which is true but I still like to goof with this stuff. Part of what I plant is to fill gaps in what is available locally. Plant wheat, rye, and cold hardy(ish) clovers for when the local farmers have beans in so that there is some green in the winter forage when the native forbs brown out. Plant alfalfa for when the clovers summer stress. Etc.

Any cattleman knows that a good mineral program reduces illness and vet bills. They also know that interseeding certain plants into the pasture will reduce mineral bills due to animals getting what's needed through foliage instead of a bag. I include plants that mine minerals in the plots. For example it's well known that chicory helps increase lactation for momma's. May not be necessary for the herd but having a free range plant that might help does produce healthy milk for fawns isn't a bad idea.

Lots of reasons to plant plots other than to hunt over them. We aren't all the same.

Fishing? I like to add brush piles to some of the ponds I fish. Is that baiting? Worse than baiting?

Totally fine with banning them during hunting season. Private land probably should be treated differently than public.

Our pond receives floating fish food weekly. Better reconsider that, I might be spreading disease;-)

The food is dispersed across a wide swath, not poured out in one spot so biologists might approve.

Patrick, I guess some people do hunt them. :-). From the BGF

Deer don’t need foodplots…. Not at all. They don’t need pit dumps or timber either. In all reality the last 3 years my food plots have been total failures. Mainly because I don’t get into them like I used to. It’s been hard for me to be motivated with people hunting in property lines and outfitters next door dumping piles of corn. I thought I had a good stand this Spring in a few of my plots, but it’s all dead now. I’m not worried about it and as of now have no plans for Fall plots.

Does it benefit the wildlife on my farms? I cannot answer that, but I see more deer in ag fields than I do in my food plots. Maybe it’s because I do not hunt them. I can’t remember the last time I hunted in one of my food plots.

Honestly, I wish it would all go away and this was the prairie it was 200 years ago, but our landscape has changed.

Here’s the thing, I like planting them and even more-so trees. I’ve planted literally thousands of trees in my life.

I really don’t think I’m doing anything that’s considered a “long-term” benefit to wildlife. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t really see the big picture.

But you know what? I had one of the first white oaks I ever planted produce acorns last year for the first time ever. I told my kids about it and showed them. Maybe my children will get to enjoy deer munching on those acorns under their ladder stand someday. This Spring I saw a row of Sycamore trees that I planted along a creek grow 5 foot. They are pushing 20 foot now. I showed my kids. Perhaps my grandson will call a big ol’ gobbler off the roost there one day.

I’m not into the “science” of this crap like some people on here. I don’t care why they do it and I really don’t think any of it is a blip on the radar in the sense of time. Mother Nature can and will unravel it all in due time.

However, I’m building memories with my kids and I just enjoy the work. I’m a fairly spiritual person and I’ve always connected with God the most when I’m outside working or hunting.

“A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.” — Greek Proverb

Bizzaro world

I think I read trophy hunting is about racks, regardless if you recover the meat or not.

Good post! Sad, but you are probably correct. Upon my demise and sale of our farm, no doubt it will most likely be put back into production, either grain or hay. All of the edge will be dozed, timber left alone...Probably in the long run our efforts will make little difference.

I still like to do it though, and I learn a lot as we go along on the journey. Your post made me think, thanks.

Could it be a matter of perspective? Hunting today for me is much better than what I experienced in the concrete jungles of my youth.

Owning our own piece and working with it to create the enjoyable experiences we have has been fantastic. Right now We can care less what anyone else thinks of our efforts, or even if they will make an impact after we are gone. Find what makes you content brother, each of us deserves to be happy.

I promise you something, this fall when I am in a stand over-looking our pond, when some migrating waterfowl stop for a break, I will think of you and say a prayer that you are having as much fun as I am!

Found this photo of a herd foraging at the farm in the winter. This is the big four acre plot, one corner of it. The other cameras showed deer covering the entire plot, kind of similar to Pat’s beans. Risk of disease transmission is probably high. But, we see deer bunched up this thick on ag fields around our farm as food sources dwindle. Do we stop farming too?

I will post a picture this year of deer doing the same and there will be no plot and no food, but I am sure I will be accused of something any way.

Read this slowly, I can care less what they do with baiting. If someone was dumping corn next to me, I would quit complaining (which is actually a different form of the easy button) and improve my habitat, including with awesome well fertilized plots, that the deer would be on my side of the fence often enough. But, lazy guys would rather complain and take people to court than break a sweat. I might have to change my handle to 'I am not lazy'.

But thank you for the laugh. I am not pro corn, I am pro facts. You have enough of a science background that if you are honest when you look at the knowledge we have today, to answer will eliminating baiting really do much to stop the spread of CWD you will not be able to conclude "absolutely".

You and others want to eliminate baiting, that's OK, just do it with real facts. My last two posts were not about baiting, it was answering false accusations that I bait to hunt.

Faced with an ethical dilemma, a common approach is to ask these three questions:

A) is the chosen action legal?

B) Is it balanced?

C) How will it make me feel in the long run?

This approach is taught in our business ethics classes. It is the basis for my belief that not all cases of baiting, including fish, are unethical.

Whether herd or disease control, the case of a youngster with limited opportunities as I presented before, pursuing food out of need, etc. there are areas in which I am absolutely fine with baiting because of honest answers to these three questions.

Those questions are also the basis for my determination that it is unethical for me to bait for hunting purposes the locations I hunt. As with most areas of life, I don’t see in black and white. Two different people can come to different conclusions on what is ethical in regards to baiting.

Given my position, I am not a fan of the state taking away private citizens and their ability to make their own decisions the vast majority of the time unless the benefits of government interference can be clearly demonstrated to be necessary, as say with something like public safety. Has that been demonstrated with baiting? My opinion, and that is all it is, is no it has not. I base that on the fact that CWD exists in areas where baiting does and does not happen. I conclude there is something else that is a bigger driver as yet to be understood.

History shows us government reach grows. Not a fan of giving them more.

Debates like this are what I am used to in my profession KD. It has nothing to do with my self ego, any talent I may have, and it is limited, is on loan from God. I am just very comfortable expressing my views, even in a hostile environment when heavily out numbered.

Lastly Patrick, I am totally comfortable with you disagreeing and coming to a different conclusion. It doesn’t make you ridiculous in my book, but I do look for consistency in positions, or what I see as a lack of.

One hundred percent agree!!

Most properties east of the Mississippi ( and eastern KS) are smaller though, so ‘large scale’ requires cooperation and coordination from LOs to prevent fragmentation etc. Seems I have heard that before on this site:-). Could that be a reason some talk about habitat improvements on a hunting site, trying to encourage partnerships? And posts numerous pictures of wildlife as evidence?

OMG! ;-)

But, but, but…let’s focus on Frank, that’s the mature approach and will help our wildlife more.

I will keep my handle after all:-)

We know one another don’t we?

You fish walleye tournaments, but your name is not listed in the top 40 teams for at least the last two years . Not that good, or fake registration?

Let’s go back to your quote, and to save time let’s use part of his argument that baiting hurts hunting opportunities for others, therefore it is unethical.

When we posted our property, by the same logic we behaved unethically. And you know there are some rural guys here that would say posting is unethical because it prevents access to a public resource.

Yet, private property rights are sacred, so we allow no trespassing rights. Again, it’s not all B&W.

Further, what about the argument that baiting is detrimental, so is archery as there are more wounds and suffering according to some. Where does the logic stop, we are all eating plants, which also have feelings?

If proof exists that the elimination of baiting will end CWD transmission, I might support it. But read what Lou (Jaq) said on the BGF…they eliminated the deer, when they returned the incident level is the same as before. The prions are already in the soil and probably being dispersed by other traveling animals.

Our experiences are different. I no longer have access to a place that the deer density in KS is some of the highest and is out of control. It's in suburbia, where most neighbors do not allow hunting.

Horses were on the property when I hunted there so bait is not an option. Going back thru my notes, I took at least four triples there and too many doubles to count. The grandchildren hunting the place after me started using feeders, and after a couple of kills were not seeing deer. They switched to timers, still no deer. Deer just are not stupid. Feeders are not the answer so many of you believe, personally I think it is an excuse used too often instead of looking at one's own ability and knowledge.

I was able to take a friend on occasion with permission. We always hung a stand in the dark, every single time. It was rare not to kill something.

One of my favorite stories is about a friend who was a wildlife biologist for KDWP. He had bow hunted for ten years and never killed a deer. I made a bet with him he could get a deer on the first try. I secured permission for James to go with me, a really nice guy. I hung two stands in the dark, he killed two does. His response to me was that he had read about deer using a bench to travel but never tried it. He is typical of folks I met in BHE classes.

If I still had access, I would install habitat that the neighboring properties didn't have, continue to move around, and kill the crap out of the deer. But remember, I am the guy who doesn't know how to hunt according to the Great Oracle of BS.

Bait would not have brought him in. The more a person screams about bait, the more I am convinced they don't know how to hunt and so hunt their neighbor's bait.

So if baiting is not detrimental to herd health it is OK then? Try and be consistent, and you must have proof it is detrimental. Excessive herd population is detrimental.

And please don't tell me to "follow the science" because the first person who said that on this topic didn't follow the science with regards to Covid. But we know who we are dealing with, and at my age I have learned a person screaming the loudest and most often about the lack of integrity of others is the person we need to be most concerned about. They will justify any behavior to continue attacking because they have convinced themself they are in the right.

Baiting is like welfare...for the animals, and moreover the so called "hunters".

Some of those biologists that don’t agree with what is being recommended remain quiet for the sake of their careers. Don’t ask me how I know.

Thanks Kyle for proving you are the POS I knew you were. I have proven I can kill, but you will stick to the same lies because that is your piss poor character that has finally been exposed. Go find someone else’s 50 year criminal record to post, and then lecture us all on ethics some more.

And FYI, I am not an anti-government conspiratorial goof ball. Since 1980, when in undergraduate work and having been exposed to the teachings of Milton Friedman, I have believed the benefits of government intervention have to clearly exceed the costs, a position I have long maintained in my expressed views here and elsewhere.

You and others should try and get past your binary thinking…not wanting another law does not mean one is pro baiting. I expect such a simplistic calculation from Kyle, but not from you. Again, I don’t bait and if the law changes it will have no impact on my approach to hunting or my success, unlike Kyle who will no longer have his neighbor’s bait to park his moon pie eating ass by.

Patrick, I never argued pro-baiting, I argued against government regulation. Your binary mindset does not allow you to see the difference,

I don’t think Xbows and airbows should be used during archery season unless for disability or age, but don’t see the need for a law preventing them. Does that make me pro-Xbow?

Some of you want to make baiting out to be the works of the devil. Some act as if they occupy the moral high ground because they are anti-baiting, but their real character has been exposed. You guys claim you can’t hardly find a place to hunt that the neighbor isn’t baiting.

Hmmm, so many baiting, so many sinners I guess in your view. What’s sad to me is witnessing folks like yourself rise up to chastise baiters while ignoring the actions of some that are done to destroy the reputation of another that has been common practice here for years.

Are you having a problem with the truth now? I included public safety above in my reasons for government intervention. Come on man, you are better than that!

And my mind is being diminished?

Cat, not so fast though…probably the only disagreement I had with Friedman (and that sounds pompous even to me as I write it due to his vastly superior mind) in my youth was his support of decriminalization of drugs. As I have aged though I have moved his direction in the case of fully informed adults in their own abodes. And this from a guy who seldom drinks and never even tried pot other than some involuntary second hand smoke at a couple concerts in my youth.

Guns, full freedom in home or on your own property. Support license to carry just as much as a license to drive as public safety is involved. License ought to require training, passing a proficiency exam, insurance, and I do support a mental health exam every 5-10 years or so. Bam, fire away!

Also, prostitution should be legal and only regulated for health purposes. Only saying this so you know I am not pro-baiting.

I did not see the two posts below my last one until after posting. My views are consistent, always. I admit to not being as fast with calculus as I was 10 years ago, (doing a little profit max calculation using first derivatives last week) but I am sharp enough to keep up with you guys;-)

I am ok with trad only during part of archery season. Can you paste and copy where I said the government ought to mandate it? No you can not.

Organizations like P&Y, state bow hunting groups like the KBA can exercise influence to achieve desired practices such as no lighted sights, and I think baiting even?

KBA’s membership I bet is significantly weighted to people living in the state west of me. What’s in it for me really? When I read you guys have planted 200k trees/shrubs there was no hesitation to join another year. I wanted to post that stat sheet here, but figured permission might be expected, and hey, even my feeble mind realizes I am not the most popular guy here.

Private influence over government mandates. Do you think our debates increase or decrease the likelihood of recruiting new members?

A bait law will be about as effective as our drug laws. People will still do it, and we will not have enough LEOs to make a difference, unless maybe we hire an additional 87,000 of them. Put their efforts in more beneficial areas.

You chide me for consistency, but I bet there are guys here who want more wardens but not IRS agents. And do you think people who cheat on game laws are more or less likely to cheat on taxes?

It is not hogwash to me, just to others because we have DIFFERENT OPINIONS. That’s really the problem here, it is common every time someone expresses a different view from the club here they are personally attacked.

I believe different opinions are OK and healthy.

If a petition is circulated to end baiting during hunting season, I will sign it to support you as I really, really, really don’t care. It will change nothing of what I do.

I will use a feeder on my farm after the season is over to assess the herd via camera. The CO will be notified. I am saying this now so I will not be falsely accused again. Good night!

Everything up to this point that you have typed contradicts that statement.

One thing is consistent however, the lies....

"Given my position, I am not a fan of the state taking away private citizens and their ability to make their own decisions"

Just one of your many statements to justify the stance of your "question". "No, what we disagree on is if action can and should be taken before murders. The mass murders weren’t murderers until they were. But we weren’t paying attention to the warnings. By your own admission he is saying things ill advised. Yet, he continues. Judgment is rightfully questioned."

You brought up red flag laws. You accused him of questionable judgement. Don't try to weasel out of it by claiming a technicality that it was a question. Stick with your stance. Keep defending it. But don't twist things around to suit the day.

Just getting back to this. Fake Tom is back. Really get you guys wound up, why are you complaining? If it sucks so much, ignore it all.

Patrick, your post with the equal signs, we both know I said no Law should be passed for two weeks of trad. I also never said anything about moral superiority related to what you posted. But, if you need to do that to feel better, ok. I am not going to keep repeating what I already said. I don’t believe I attacked you, please show me where I did.

Kyle, you can keep posting your attacks along with Tom, amazing how you, he and Thornton all say the same things (Tom, I answered your question, you disappeared after I asked mine, you fake), but your character has been revealed for all. Go find 50 year old records to post, Thornton will support you, and the rest will remain silent.

Yep, I support red flag laws. I stated what I believe should be required to carry off one’s own property above. He has threatened multiple people privately and stated he would wear a perma grin the rest of his life for killing a mass murder. I have talked with numerous people who have killed enemy combatants. None have had that reaction. A person will something to prove being glib about killing someone, yep, I stand by what I said. Is that still weaseling to you?

I guess no petition is being circulated? No, because you already know the majority probably will not support you. And everyone not willing to sign is NOT some scumbag. They don’t care what any of us think.

Do you remember when Pat was attacked on his KS thread for baiting? The outfitter had a small amount of bait used to just make the animals pause as they walked thru a travel corridor, allowing for a cleaner shot. It was the rut, bucks were not coming in to a few handfuls of bait. Yet he was attacked just like the poster on the BGF Elephant thread did for something that is legal.

We disagree, how many times can I say I am ok with you wanting to eliminate baiting? It will not affect me at all if they do.

My position, baiting is not evil, at times it might be ethically sound, in areas I hunt I see deer bunched up as close as spreaders bring them in and so do not believe stopping baiting will reduce CWD/diseases, wardens should use their time for more valuable purposes than ticketing baiters, habitat work coordinated across multiple properties is much better for wildlife than baiting, food is one of the key ingredients of habitat but does not require plots in many/most situations where extreme weather is not a factor, I like habitat work, I like plotting, the deer respond to it. I kill enough deer without any of it.

Have you ever observed deer yarding in extreme conditions? I have, if feeders are disease magnets, then yards are super spreaders of sadness!

Some biologists believe feeders in MI cause young deer to hang around too long and not migrate to the yards with the other deer. They are programmed for food, but once the season is over and the food stops in some cases the snow is already too deep to safely migrate to find the rest of the herd. Detrimental is obvious.

I have yet to read numerous people say corn piles bring the big bucks in every time. In fact we read the opposite don’t we?

Baiting bears, you guys ought to try it. So common to see the big ones traveling a safe distance out to get down wind of the stand. It’s not as easy as throwing out some stale donuts.

I only share because my positions are based on my experiences and observations, and are likely to change as I learn more.

Yes, I did return fire to those who continually attack me, which I have never seen much concern for by anyone here, including remaining silent while 50 year old information not relevant to any on-going discussion and used only to discredit another person is posted. And only one person, a NR, expressed a view of agreement when that behavior was challenged.

Sometimes we need to do more than pray, God have us the ability to do what needs to be done at times. It takes courage and may impact popularity, but…

Thanks, and I wish you the same for this weekend. I have been on vacation the last two weeks and down some because of the back. I guess I was bored!

I'll be glad to agree to disagree if you just hold to your stance that he should be subject to redflag laws and should have rights stripped without committing a crime. Innocent until proven guilty is my stance 100%. It's not yours. We disagree... I think... unless you want to go back to saying it was a question.

You are the one weaseling cat, accusing me of something I did not say. Maybe his statements were all false bravado, maybe not. Again public safety must be the priority, IMO.

Carrying is a huge responsibility, and must be treated as such in words and deeds. Numerous people, some in the know, advised against his glibness, yet I saw little change in his attitude. It still is concerning to me.

Cat, do you think people sitting on the fence about 2A will be more positively or negatively influenced by his words? Same question for mine? I ask since detrimental impacts are being discussed.

ding, ding, ding

The key here is Frank absolutely loves conflict. The subject matter means nothing to him. He uses the word debate but what he wants is negativity and he gets that. I watched him do this for years before ever commenting. He has a little hurt spot inside that needs help.......:>)

With rights come responsibilities, the SC has ruled often that there are limitations. So, no, RF are not stripping rights or we would allow the mentally ill to carry, but we don’t.

You are a full of shit blowhard. There is more to this and we both know it.

My questions still stand, your profession, age, education? You keep the anonymity so you can throw grenades because you are a coward.

You showed up after ten years of watching my posts, never having anything else to say? Sure. And after ten years of not posting, I became your target and the only thing you posted about except a couple dog posts and trump support. Sure. And you ridiculed me getting Covid shots which has nothing to do with any debates you have posted on. Either we know one another, or your are a trump punk, probably both.

"and I’ve also talked to you enough to understand that you will argue about something for days that you apparently are somewhat indifferent on."

ding, ding, ding

The key here is Frank absolutely loves conflict. The subject matter means nothing to him. He uses the word debate but what he wants is negativity and he gets that. I watched him do this for years before ever commenting. He has a little hurt spot inside that needs help.......:>)

Next post by fake Tommy, another diversion.

Those requirements may include fingerprinting, a background check, a mental health records check, and training in firearms handling and in laws regarding the use of force, the justices said.”

This is what the 135 page published SC ruling said in the NY decision striking down the carry restrictions.

I was familiar with this ruling when I posted RFLs do not violate Rights. My position on carry has been expressed many times before this ruling, and has not changed. This ruling though shows to me that though this court is constantly accused of being extremists, the majority are Constitutionalists who are extremely familiar with the Federalist Papers.

Is this the question you want me to answer? If so be specific. A reason things were said is pretty vague for me to answer. What was said that you want me to refer to?

These posts get out of order I think, they are pinned up based on when one starts writing, not completing them, I think?

Please see SC opinion above.

EDIT: yes my answer is no.

The key here is Frank absolutely loves conflict. The subject matter means nothing to him. He uses the word debate but what he wants is negativity and he gets that. I watched him do this for years before ever commenting. He has a little hurt spot inside that needs help.......:>)

The person has no doubt has numerous areas of ethical conflict in his life that would come to light with full transparency.

My offer stands, we can see a psych together and let them determine what they find, then we will post the report here.

EDIT: some here keep making accusations, I keep offering proof and willing to offer more proof. There is nothing else I can do. If all you have is to offer criticism, you are the problem.

My intentional edits are usually the result of me not seeing that you posted again or someone else posted before I hit submit on answering a previous post.

Honestly, out of respect I try and answer everything. As an example, I did not see your question if I reported him until I went back and looked.

I really don’t see these as conflict. Getting people with common interests to talk is rewarding. I was not aware of your vast habitat knowledge until another poster stated that people should ask you about the T&M technique, then I really started to pay attention to you and encouraged your involvement. Sure, I am a contrarian and like to debate. People can say what they want, but this place gets a lot of hits no doubt.

You need to be impressed! I've shipped 200 steers, moved and sorted 35 cows, drove an hour round trip to town, ran 5 miles, and have made multiple posts to this thread. Haven't even had my first beer yet!

Yikes!

$100 says he's typing more lies right now

Nothing I posted will get me into trouble. Cherry picking stuff continues to show your character.

What makes me slimy cat is your willingness to challenge only me, it’s obviously ok to you that people post 50 year old criminal records.

And where is fake Tom to set up our appointment? He can’t show his face because then we would all know what lies really look like.

Kyle, no one made you the ethics police. Start telling the full truth on your hunts like deer not recovered in time, knowingly hunting next to your neighbor’s bait, clean up your own act first.

This is the 2nd or 3rd time you've brought up other issues and my lack of defending you or my lack of attacking them. Not sure I can make it more clear other than I don't care about that stuff. It's your record own it (I don't care about it). Someone posted it (I don't care). Lots of talk about baiting and hunter ethics (I don't care how someone else hunts). Someone makes claims that a guy i don't know is dirty at work (I don't care). Someone said something rude (I don't care). I don't care. This has always been a single issue topic for me.

I care about redflag laws. YOU brought them into the conversation. I am against your stance on them. Our conversation could have been very simple. You could have said at the very start that yes you want these laws but no you don't think Thornton should have his rights stripped. That's not what happened now is it? You talked in circles and played these weird games that covers 2 threads and dozens of posts.

So why do you so bad want me to get involved in all this other stuff? When Thotnton and Sito accuse someone of needing their rights stripped due to a post on a forum I might disagree with them. When they openly advocate for gun control and redflag laws I'll disagree with them. Does that satisfy you?

And cat has no problem with your threats to me obviously.

EDIT: Unlike the cowards here, I always post using my full name, so for the sake of consistency when giving Ryan crap for not posting his last name, give your ankle biter buddy Kyle crap for not posting his first name with a common last name on his third handle that we know of. That's not following the rules we agreed to, but let's wait for the man-child to lecture us again.

2nd EDIT: I used to post from an Android, switched a little more than a year ago. The man-child Kyle will dig thru countless threads to prove I didn't always post from an I-phone and will call me a liar again.

While some continue spittin lies and poisoning wildlife.

That is true. See my previous 2 days of posts that are single topic about redflag laws. None of that other crap is any of my business or concern. Take care of it yourself.

My response was to offer for my accuser and me to be dropped off on a farm in the Midwest and prove his accusations false.

When he did not accept, I offered pictorial proof. Now the goal posts move, I offered pictures and am accused of being a liar for that.

This is you Kyle, attack and when someone defends themself you attack how they defended. You can’t win an argument unless you handicap the person from refuting your lies.

Then NCK shows up, along with Thornton, every time you decide to attack me. All three accuse me of mental illness, I offer to find the truth together, no takers.

Silence against such behavior is in fact defense of it, cat. Habitat is right, most of our threads go to crap because of the same man-child on his third handle telling the rest of us who disagree with him that we are the devil incarnate.

Personally cat, people are more important than baiting views.

Dedicated to the poisoning of Missouri's Wildlife since 1997

Here's your sign...

Follow the science right? Or you know more than the biologists just like you do dogs you never hunted behind and predator numbers.

You have family land you get to hunt, while you tell everyone else how they should hunt. What a hypocrite!

You posted on the 40 yard thread before red flag laws were mentioned.

Kyle intentionally tried to deceive everyone here by cutting off my post, just like he tried to intentionally deceive us with his friend's buck that was not recovered in time. THIS IS PROOF HE IS THE LIAR.

His third handle and not following the rules he agreed to are proof his ethics are not better than those he attacks, probably much worse.

"Cat, You posted on the 40 yard thread before red flag laws were mentioned."

Bahahaha... This is a screenshot of my single post on that thread before redflags were brought into it. What the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? Seriously, where are you going with that?

Once again.... are you serious? I'm not allowed to ignore something on the internet? I read hundreds of things a week that I don't agree with and get this... I don't always stick my nose into it. Very seldom actually do I get involved in the drama. I guess you're going to have to place judgment on me quite a bit because I'm not going to start jumping into every little pissing match that pops up online. Every time someone doesn't agree with you and you don't see a reply from me go ahead look down your nose. Or just take care of that shit yourself!

AND ONCE AGAIN, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Where/when have baiting views been a topic concerning you and I? I see zero correlation between baiting and redflag laws. Or is this because I'm not fighting your fights on topics I'm not interested in debating?

Dumb Dumb.......click on my handle and that will lead you to my name. I have told you where I live. Are you that stupid? Don't answer that I know the answer. So the professor does a google search and can't find the answer and throws false accusations all around.

You know I think all those Covid shots you got and are still getting have given you some head rot:>) We need more research on this......LOL

Frank likes to try to enter into conversations he knows nothing about. (Refer to covid arguments, guns, etc.)

Frank fails to acknowledge I treat covid patients on a weekly basis, in the most critical of situations. He fails to acknowledge I possess multiple Class III firearms, all of which he would have went to prison for ten years if he had them in his possession as only a FFL dealer.

Frank likes to boast about his relationships with biologists (aka Ks Flatlander, lol) .

Despite baiting, having his farms surveyed by "biologists", Frank has only killed 3 shooter bucks in the last 15 years....

You are just awesome! Special Forces should be calling soon.

Kyle,

You did not try to mis-represent the truth. Your ethics are superior to all of us, and KU sports programs.

I agree Slate, but to reiterate my position is not one against ownership/possession on private property but limitations with the right to carry in public.

Cat, when challenged and given pause to question my stance, I do seek opinions from respected friends/colleagues. Obviously I realize my views may need reconsideration.

Once such good friend/colleague, Tony, I reviewed the exchange on these two threads. Just because some feel the need to tell us their qualifications, I am sharing the following in hopes some others will reflect as well.

Tony is a retired Lt. Colonel, career Army man. He flew choppers in the service, and also has his fixed wing license, which the Army did not require to fly choppers.

Education; BS in Mechanical Engineering, Masters, ABD, in economics, Masters in History, Masters in Psychology. A Renaissance man for sure.

During the Kosovo/Bosnia conflict he roomed with an Army psychologist (same rank) whose responsibility was to screen applicants for Delta Force. The psych told him they had enough guys come in and say things like they would have no problem killing, they could slice the throat of the enemy, etc. They were not accepted into the training. Does that surprise any non-sociopath?

I stand by what I have posted, more so after my conversation with Tony.

Nope still think your an idiot. Another long post of complete nonsense.

Apples-n-oranges Habitat. Please be consistent. The constitution does not protect or give the right to be accepted into the military. The military has historically denied entry due to many reasons such as eye sight, body shape, and gender. Hell, it wasn't too long ago that you couldn't be openly gay in the military. Are you sure that's who you want to site as your example?

Suicides are the number 1 reason for gun deaths in the US accounting for more than 50% of all gun deaths (these happen on private property). So you want to use mental health to strip rights in an effort to curb deaths in the smaller section of the pie chart but have no empathy to save those among us who need help the most? Be very careful when you answer this one Frank as it sits VERY close to home with me!

You did not get the point about mental health cat, no other way to explain it to you. The psych wasn't evaluating weight, etc. That ought to be obvious. The Constitution does not protect the right to unlimited carry of firearms as has been pointed out to you previously with the quoted SC ruling. Quit being obtuse.

Tony is not a hunter Kyle, proving once again you know little of what you run your mouth about. But you do have a pattern of providing false information and trying to deceive. I look forward to your self-published book on ethics and how to have women eating out of your hand.

Thornton, I tried to be polite...you are awesome! Your u-tube video shooting accurately while under extreme duress is impressive. Your being a federally licensed RN with 16 years experience, possessing two associate degrees and just 2 hours shy of a bachelor's degree, a pilot's license, Wow!!! I am sure Quantico has you on speed dial to be an instructor with such unique qualifications, the money just did not compare to being an RN, no problem. Is that better, did I stroke your ego enough?

The after-life ought to be fun for all of us, hey? I bet none of this will matter. Let's all go together and get that psych eval, seriously.

Point to any where I have said that folks should not have the ability to save others. I have not, and now cat I am questioning your integrity. I remain very supportive of what an obviously well prepared, and from what we have seen so far, stable individual, Eli, taking out a killer. Said so, and God bless this young man and probably what he and his family will have to endure. Making light of mental health as seen above is sad and speaks to the character of the person doing it. Eli will more than likely need consultation(s), as have many vets that we see on campus. Yes, my position does put me in contact with many individuals thru 30 plus years.

The suicide rate has drastically risen and is tied closely to a deteriorating mental health condition in many individuals, exacerbated by recent events like Covid and the shutdown. If people are authorized to carry, there should be some assurance they are stable. Bragging about having the ability to kill someone and wearing a grin for the rest of one's life for having done so is not what many have posted is healthy, or that occurs with folks who have been in those situations.

That is my opinion, and not a damn thing you insult me with will change it.

Your own words! You do not want red flag laws on private property, only limits to carrying in public. The number one killer in relation to guns is suicide. This happens on private property and is directly related to mental health. By your own statements you want to limit one but not the other. Want to save lives then go after what's taking the most lives.

You question my integrity?!?! Up until this point I've been very direct but polite, no name calling or assumptions. You've ignored questions, cherrypicked, made stuff up, contradicted yourself, boasted, flipflopped, and pretty much insulted everyone here. You claim I've insulted you? You question my character because I point out that the laws you want imposed on us ignores the biggest problem related to guns? Saying I'm making light of suicide even after saying it's VERY important to me? You have painted yourself into a corner in which I'm left with only two options of opinion of you; either completely bat shit crazy, or you are a troll looking to inflame people. To go to where you just did with suicide just sucks! Yes, I am now insulting you. You deserve it. I've seen low, but you are setting records. Congrats. You just took possibly the only person left on this board who was willing to have honest discussions with you (even when disagreeing) and pissed him off to the point of no return. I told you suicide was close to home. Only a insensitive dipship would say the crap you are spewing. F-off!

"I have proven I can kill"

Are you talking about Threads Frank? Yes you are VERY good at killing threads..........

You accused me of having no empathy. BULLSHIT! Suicide hits very close to me as well. F-off yourself.

My position and answers were consistent, you had folks here and on the 40 thread holding similar positions to mine. I answered your questions very respectfully.

Tom, the only time you have ever shown up is to shovel shit, the only time. Enough said.

Thornton, the only big deer I have killed have been by luck. Again, no corn involved, but between you and Kyle if you keep repeating a lie I guess you believe it will stick. Yep, and I am the one stirring stuff up.

And the culture here is that is OK. It’s not.

Where did I say you are making light of suicide. I Fing didn’t and would not. Critic your own mental health. I am tired of you implying I said things I did not. F-off!

So, now you are discussing the other stuff, but only as it relates to one direction. You have proof right here that Kyle attempted to deceive everyone with what I said by cutting off my post. Do you think that represents integrity? Is that insulting to me?

Do you think a person has the right to insult back when they have been attacked?

I didn’t go any where with suicide that sucks. Faculty on our campus escort students to get help for their problems, we all personally know how tough things are right now and have had folks do the unthinkable. Read that again because I am one that has had the unthinkable happen. I am heartfelt for your loss, but to imply what you did when as a faculty member we must be cognizant of the risks every day, the added stress this creates to be constantly aware, it’s more than I could take. Some criticisms are warranted, this was not!!!!! Not a week goes by that I do not think of Daniella and still blame myself that I did not pick up on any signs. Sought help for it actually.

You have pointed out you were talking red flag laws, then bring in suicide as part of the discussion as it relates to mental health. My concern might be a smaller portion of the optic, but that does not negate me from being able to have a position on it.

Maybe I gave too much credit to the ability to understand the logic, so try this…

If our military does not accept people that say they will have no problem killing others into positions where they are training you to kill others, there is probably a good reason for that. By extension, I am comfortable preventing people with that attitude from carrying in public. Many, many agree with that view!

But then I am a guy who kneels after every bow kill and thanks the Lord for the harvest, and prays before each hunt that if offered an animal for harvest I make a quick, clean kill and the animal does not suffer. I cringe when I read a person took 10 shots at an animal before retrieving proper ammo to do the job with. To me it show no respect for life, but that’s just me, maybe I am nuts, but if so because of those positions, proud to be.

EDIT:FTR, when referring to comments about making light of mental health, I was referring to Thorton’s. A medical professional ought to know they cannot diagnose over the net. I thought it was obvious I am responding to multiple people at the same time. You know, the club bullies who band together.

I wish I could say the same for you. Not trying to be condescending, but we have witnessed repeated attacks on people, criminal records posted, repeated lies, and Kyle just on this thread intentionally deceptive, and doubling down.

It is the pattern here, and you are part of it. That is not wonderful, nor is it honorable.

And nor have I done what you accused me of.

At best I am average, very well below that if you look at the slammer BGF thread.

I consider most guys hunting broken Midwest farm habitat in the same category. Acting like sitting in a travel corridor, pinch point, ag field access trails somehow makes you a better hunter by far than a guy sitting over bait when bait is all around your spot, is not an opinion I share. That and the belief that NRs are not evil makes me a person that is just supposed to be quiet here.

I will work on that.

EDIT: Will be accused of patronizing here, but have no knowledge of cat’s hunting exploits, but his habitat/plant/soil knowledge is superior by far. Still do not consider him wonderful.

I have earned Tom's ire because he is a hard right trump supporter, and I am not. He has repeatedly mocked me privately and publicly for getting my covid vaccines. He has yet to tell us his qualifications, other than being a trump supporter, to be critical of another for following the science. He has no credibility.

Cat, I gave this some thought on my walk. Tom's view was that I ruin the threads, but Habitat pointed out on another thread, as I have two here, that the threads go to heck when the man-child starts with his personal insults.

You have been critical of my approach here, rightfully so. That's an admission I can do better, the only one who has ever said that, but not the only one in need of it. But, you are the one with your last comment that now allows for me to respond about approaches since you criticized mine. Where is your public criticism of Kyle posting 52-year-old criminal information? Where is your response to him posting a partial comment of mine to imply I said something I didn't? This was egregious! He thought he could get away with it, he thought my memory would not allow me to catch that. He willingly and intentionally tried to mislead all of you. Where have I ever done that? I have not! After being caught, not to apologize but to continue down the same road, there is nothing I can think but this is the behavior and standards you are comfortable with. I am not!

Look at this thread again, it was a fine discussion up until the typical immature behavior from Kyle. Deny it all you want, that says more about you than me. The fact that he has no clue says everything about him.

The other baiter obviously has a fetish for me, it's been that way for years here. I continue to refuse its advances, it's very persistent.

"Talked about his opinions as if they were fact" Blahahahahahaaha same here....

Nobody cares but you about Kyle calling that guy out on his felony record. Personal felony record I might add. 'Personal Felony' is as high as you can go on the sentencing grid if you knew anything at all about law. If someone would have intervened with a grin and a pistol, they would have been 100% within the law and we wouldn't be listening to you complain about it 40 years later.

Stop complaining you're being "bullied". You condoned those spineless anklebiters on the national forum for doing it to me. I've invited a few over here to help you out, but nobody has showed up.

Do I have this right up there in that mess it looked like someone was accusing someone else of loosing some meat on a deer that the guy being accused of doing it didn't even shoot the deer? How does that work? My brother shoots a deer and loses it and I am responsible of that? Kind of odd in my world. And for the record I have lost deer it is part of hunting unfortunately and I bothers me to no end.

A real man does not post misleading information and intentionally post a partial quote that intentionally leads others to draw a different conclusion than what was intended.

Thornton, I was informed of your PMs. People are getting a good laugh from you calling others ‘ankle biters’. The 40 thread had a lot of people calling you out, and at least half have had areas of hunting they have disagreed with me on. They were not supporting me, but offering their own opinion. I encourage you to read the thread again because you were mocked by guys like RK and Brotsky before I ever offered anything even remotely critical. And their criticism was based on your behavior in the past. Maybe just think about that a little.

Estimated to be a 200 year old at least white oak. Loaded with mast this year, and the number of “group” pictures we are now getting suggests some of the mast is on the ground. Had up to 7 does/fawns in one picture with most having their heads down eating.

These two bucks are grooming each other, natural. This is how CWD spreads so easily without bait placed by humans. Outlawing corn will have little impact if any on slowing disease spread.

Why did you change your handle form Otis to Sito, to sitO? Why not bullshit artist?

Hunters my a$$

Seriously dude? How many years do you have to go back to find an "Otis" handle. I've been here a long time 20 years? and don't recognize that? I can see that you 2 disagree on some things but I have always looked forward to and respected Sito's posts. He's a real bowhunter that hunts private ground the same way I do. Knocking on doors and being respectful of the landowners so he's welcomed back in years to come.

If 3/4 of the Kansas complainers on this site would actually take a weekend and knock on doors they would have places to hunt rather than be on here complaining about how bad Kansas is and how it's not the same as 1980.

Thornton, getting pms myself, another hunter you threatened in pms included. Maybe look at what is being posted on the BGF openly.

Thornton, as for Wva, I quit interacting with him when he posted the USA is the most corrupt country in the world. Simply a loon.

You ever going to Come out of hiding NCK? Be a man, or at least try.

Being able to chase deer on multiple properties is not the reality today. And we all hunt food sources. I know exactly which oaks our deer prefer, and where the persimmons are located. We witness guys here filming their hunts sitting over winter wheat fields.

Managing habitat shrinks the home range, non-rut, has been my experience while doing a lot of good for non-target wildlife. You may think it is lazy to plant food, I think it is self-centered to expect to hunt on other folks’ property and not undertake any improvements.

Should keep you going for a couple days;-)

Most of us don’t have family land to hunt on as Kyle does. And knocking on doors to secure deer hunting access is difficult in KS and MO where we are at. I have better things to do with my time, if I did not own land I would lease or join a hunt club. But, to each their own.

You're an absolute fool for thinking you have any reason to turn me in on a red flag. I've had patients screaming F*** You! I'm gonna F*** you up, I'm gonna F****** kill you!" To the entire dept and the physician with WPD present after we handcuffed them, and WPD still released the guy with no charges. As I offered in PM, I have the ATF's number on my phone. As a CCL and Class III holder and gun collector, I have zero fear I've done anything wrong. I buy a lot of guns. Average wait time for approval on me is 30 seconds after they send in the FFL form.

Same old characters. There are a few real decent guys I've met on here in the last 12 years, and I've hunted with them over 20 times, and others will text occasionally to ask what to expect if a friend or family incurrs a medical problem. One guy invited me to his farm in Harvey County last year and gave me his 7 deer stands because he enjoyed my hunts and said I actually hunt the deer. Due to shoulder problems, he had decided to give up bow hunting.

Your original quote as follows:

"Anybody that's spent 30 minutes around me understands there's usually not ten feet between me and a gun ready to kill something if it needs killed. Shooting a mass murderer would literally give me perma grin for the rest of my life."

You edited it to read "kill a varmit". Why the edit? No need for the edit if the original content was ok. But like a little kid caught in a lie…you wanna change your story. Be a man, and own your comment. The original comment. No? Funny that.

“The doctor diagnoses, then I get an order for intramuscular ketamine, Haldol, or Geodon if they're acting crazy.”

Sweet. RN with an alphabet after his name, on an open forum, refers to patients with mental issues as crazy. Rates right up there with the “perma-grin” comment.

“You condoned those spineless anklebiters on the national forum for doing it to me. I've invited a few over here to help you out, but nobody has showed up.”

*sigh* I promised myself I wouldn’t waste anymore energy on this sh!t show. Especially on a internet spec ops/delta force/ seal team, DEVGRU operator. On a “national” forum no less. JHC grow the phuc up.

1st. Frank needs no help. From me or anyone. He’s quite capable of owning and defending his position. And certainly not to defend himself from you and your circle-jerk of buddies. All nodding their heads mumbling “hmmm, yeah that’s right, that’s right.” The only original thought or opinion is the one shared by their pals. Y’all don’t like him cuz he doesn’t believe in group think, but individuality. He owns his comments. Registers with his real name, unlike some of the internet pu$$ies on this forum, as well as the BGF. I’ve disagreed with Frank on red flag laws, publicly and thru PM’s. I understand his view, just don’t agree with it. Same with food plots. I think part and parcel of our problem with hunting access is our obsession with antlers and all that it drags along. I do concede that habitat improvement benefits ALL wildlife, not just the ones we want to kill. But some of you are so emotionally immature you can’t see past your decision and are unwilling (or unable) to consider another POV.

2nd. Believe it or not, not every word you utter or phrase that spews from your narcissistic ego driven psyche is worthy of, or requires a response. In fact, most of it is bravo sierra and NWOC. And some folks have other repsonsibilities that precludes a response to your verbal masturbation.

3rd. If I was to profile you based on your internet ramblings, I would concur you were the slightly chubby kid in middle school that was picked on and had his lunch money taken. In high school, the girls ignored you. As you got older, you over-compensate by trying to act like you’re some bad ass operator, part of a stack, ready to breach. You’re not. So, you have some class III firearms. BFD. Some slightly blurry pics of a target at 41 yards. Yeah, so. Contrary to your own narcissistic view of yourself, you ain’t anything special. Not by a long shot. If you want to see special AND humble, look at the slammer thread.

4th. As far as spineless….So you think calling someone out on the internet, calling them spineless is…..brave? It’s laughable and the actual definition of spineless. Reminds me of when my son was 12, playing COD and all the butt-hurt, name calling, bang your mom, trash talk. Most grew past that, others, well they grow up to be internet Delta Force operators.

Tell ya what, next time you’re in southeast PA, look me up. I’ll buy ya a beer or a shot (maybe two) and we can talk about it. Like men. Until then, you’re just a little 12 year old that just grew his first pubes, sitting in the basement, talking trash on Xbox, waiting for mom to let you know the pizza rolls and hot pockets are ready for you and your emerging adolescent pals.

“Then, you sent me scrawny pics of you with your shirt off 40 years ago while you weren't seeing combat.”

Still dissing people that served. My guess is you’re such a pu$$y, you couldn’t get laid in a women’s prison with a handful of pardons from the governor.

Like Mason said in “The Rock”…

But if you think I’m an internet P word I can arrangements for you to fly to Texas. I’m super busy down here but I might even pay half your plane ticket to help you out.

I like to joke and have a good time on here but if you’re calling me out I’ll help you. I’ll give you the same offer I’ll buy you drinks and if you still think I’m the P word and want to roll in the dirt I can help you with that as well.

Don't waste your money. If you want to buy an airline ticket fly yourself and your boys up here for a weekend of fishing. We've got some crappie, bass, and yellows with your name on them!

Also guess got a little irritated with all the initials…couldn’t figure out what they meant and then called this nice forum a poop show.

But you’re right Jason it’s probably smarter to spend my money on coming up there to fish. He said something about Delta Force and The Rock. Now if I’m not mistaken that’s a guy on TV that Erica likes to look at he’s a pretty good size fella. So I might be paying money to get my butt whooped but it sure would be fun to give it a try.

Either way we’re going to go fishing up there with you one day…we can’t wait.

Hey guys I would appreciate if you don't give Kyle's location away in the future. As part of his security team it makes it difficult to protect him. First and foremost the girls he attracts and mistreats are very aggressive. We try but a few do get through. Then there is the possibility that Frank will send a student with a decoy and expect a meal and gas money to get back to Kansas. By far our worst fear. Again please use PM's in the future it will help us do our job better.

Bowbender, Tom, is not a false registration by me NCK. Tom is correct, I own my posts. But I agree with everything Bowbender said.

Be Still, nothing I said was directed at you, if I am who you are referring to? Did not quite follow that?? Agree with cat, you are a gentleman.

Back to habitat talk...

Jeff, habitat work shrinks home ranges has been my experience...with or without food plots. Here is a great case in point...I went to the farm yesterday to hang two more stands. I was curious what was transpiring there because in the last 72 hours I was getting a ton more pictures of wildlife, groups of does, bobcats, turkeys.

Sure enough, the property just to our south had a bulldozer and backhoe tearing up all the trees and plants in the pasture. I asked what was going on, the LO said he did not want winter chores anymore (feeding the cattle, he is in his 80s), so he was putting everything into crop production. I posted before with some pictures how this is going on all around us.

Jeff, I do not know your area, but you guys do not know mine as well. I am knowledgeable enough and talk with many who are even more so that I know what we are doing is beneficial to a lot of wildlife. A comment was made challenging if our property is biologist sanctioned, why do I not kill more big bucks. First, I must not be that good of a hunter, but second, I do not do this for headgear. Trophy hunting is doing more harm to our passion than habitat management ever will Jeff.

In Pms you pointed out my gut, here you pointed out my bald head, and mocked me getting shots for Covid. There is more to the story as I have been saying, and you come off as very immature. At 63 and happily married, I am not concerned with my looks, but do try and take care of myself. I was never considered good looking, I was so ugly when I was born the doctor slapped my mother.

Why would a complete stranger care what anyone else does with regards to getting or not getting covid shots? You are a trumper who cannot think for himself and shares next to nothing because you know like everyone else your faults would be pointed out and your accomplishments are minimal. Still waiting on your education background so we can discern whether you have enough knowledge about viral infections to mock others, I assume you must have more than an Associate degreed RN?

How you can avoid the heart burn long posts cause you, don't read them. Really simple solution.

I will keep posting this, posting 50-year-old criminal information, cutting of a post to imply the author said something they did not, this is your poor character. That others give it a free pass says the same about their character. Great article by the editors of the WSJ published over the weekend. Their view, what is destroying this country is a lack of virtue. That doesn't mean every mistake is a lack of virtue, but not owning up to poor behavior and repeating it is.

Thanks, but not necessary.

Tom is correct, our respect has grown for each other because of debates and dialogue, both public and in PMs, thru the years on a number of issues discussed, mainly on the BGF and former CF. We have disagreed as much if not more than we have agreed. I can assure you that Tom is an independent thinker. He is very articulate and can hit the mark with his words better than most anyone else on the BGF IMHO.

In a PM, cannot remember if it was Tom or someone else, but it was during the 40-yard thread, someone stated to me that one cannot elevate themself by tearing others down, and those that attempt to are just very insecure. If you respond to that by pointing out what I have written, and ignore what others have said, you lack virtue.

Again, this thread went south when Kyle decided to insult others, as Ray has pointed out that is what so often happens.

Are we done yet?

It was a great week w/o the mindless, self-absorbed, rambling...guess even the Monkey Pox can't keep you down HFraudW

Have fun!

I won’t go into specifics, but Kyle’s a good man.

Frank, in regards to this thread just turn yourself off.

By Ripley's Believe it or not

I’ve seen some pretty sloppy fields that had plenty of corn well into March

Do some work and put in a variety of foodplots if you want to benefit wildlife through the winter months. Keep the deer spread out. Sticking their nose in the same hole that every other deer has frequented in the last 24 hours IS going to contribute to the spread much faster than eating in a soybean field.

Farmers are still going to lease. Outfitters and hunters are just going to have to work for that “great time” they are paying for. Haha… what a weird concept.

And we aren’t talking power tools here. Quite a bit of difference, as in no similarities at all.

Listen, I get it money is tight… some years worse than others. This last year has been the most difficult year of my life on the farm. Horrible crops and I had an accident that totaled one of our main tractors… it was the type of year that can sink a man.

I’ve leased some/most of our land out. I am not opposed to you or anyone else having the right to do that. Baiting on the other hand?

Speaking of opinions vs facts:

Baiting is what caused me to lease mine out. Baiting is taking the hunt out of hunting.

I owe more to the woods than I can ever pay back. Personally, I hate leasing my property out. I worked 2 jobs for 12 years to put together what I have, I didn’t inherit it. For someone to be able to completely decimate the mature deer herd in a year because of corn piles on property lines all for $$$$, is not ethical.

That’s my opinion.

However, the facts are this:

Baiting is contributing to the spread of CWD. I don’t think there is any denying it.

We should all be on board with this no matter your opinion… in my opinion:-)