Colorado fence question
Colorado
Contributors to this thread:
Just thought I would throw this out there for some help/input from Colorado bowsiters. I bought a piece of hunting property in western CO earlier this year and one month after closing the landowner to my north decides to put in a new fence for $26k. He never talks to me about it and the first I hear about it is when I receive a bill for $13k from the excavator/fence company. I understand that in CO that each landowner is responsible for 50% of a fence along property lines, but is this still true even if I never agreed to the fence or signed any contract with the fence company? It just seems crazy that I can be forced to pay for a fence that I never authorized or even knew about. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have been willing, but some communication beforehand would have been nice. Not a very good way to start with neighborly relations either. Just trying to figure out whether I should pay to retain/consult an attorney or if I should just pay the $$ and move-on. And for the record, I'm pretty sure that the landowner was buddies with the individual who sold me the land and was just waiting for the deal to close so that they could pass-off the fence expense to the new guy which isn't necessarily illegal but certainly on the grey side of shady and should have been disclosed in the closing. Appreciate any help. Thanks.
Sean
Return to sender with a big FU attached. That is extortion. Like the college students wanting someone else to pay for their bad choices.
First thing I would do would be to contact your neighbor and discuss it with him.
I would be very hesitant to pay any bills that I didn't agree to.
Treeline— probably good advice to contact the neighbor but in all honesty I’m not feeling very “friendly” towards him right now. Never even met the guy or had any conversations with him up to this point and I kind of consider it a ‘shot across the bow’ when he goes and does something like this without communicating. But, you’re right, I should probably stop being passive-aggressive and be the bigger man and at least go talk to him. I just hate confrontation and would almost prefer that an attorney do it. Which isn’t necessarily the best course of action, especially if I want to maintain peace in the neighborhood.
Treeline— probably good advice to contact the neighbor but in all honesty I’m not feeling very “friendly” towards him right now. Never even met the guy or had any conversations with him up to this point and I kind of consider it a ‘shot across the bow’ when he goes and does something like this without communicating. But, you’re right, I should probably stop being passive-aggressive and be the bigger man and at least go talk to him. I just hate confrontation and would almost prefer that an attorney do it. Which isn’t necessarily the best course of action, especially if I want to maintain peace in the neighborhood.
My first reaction was to get upset and say no I am not paying anything. After thinking about it for a bit, here are some thoughts to consider:
Do you like the fence and is it worth (to you) 26K? Is it something you would put up if you had the money (maybe you do)? If the answer to these is yes, consider yourself lucky for getting the fence you want for half price. If you want a fence, but this isn't something you would put up (for any reason), consider the fact that you did get a fence out of the deal. That fence, if you wanted a fence, has some value to it( to you). Figure out what the value is and consider offering half of that. I second the idea to sit down and talk to him. You both could find common ground. He may not need or expect anything out of you and would be happy with anything he gets out of you. Bottom line, if the fence has value to you, figure out the value and consider giving him that portion.
With that said, the guy should have came over and talked to YOU prior to putting up the fence and then compounded the problem by just giving you a bill. Not a great start to a neighbor relationship. In the end, you 2 will have to be neighbors until one of you leaves or dies. Consider going about this pragmatically and at least work toward a mutually agreeable resolution. It may be well worth it in the long run.
I hate to say it. But IMHO "peace in the neighborhood" can be one of two ways at this point. First, he runs all over you and you foot the bill (and will continue to happen). Second, go hand him his other half of the bill. And tell him "would have gladly paid half IF he would have just communicated, but not happening on this bill".
Guessing you will have a constant battle with this neighbor. Anyone that would do that probably tells you all you need to know about them.
BTW, I am still jealous you got to buy land in Colorado. Congrats!
Here is what I found: Fences on Boundary Lines Unless property owners agree otherwise, fences on a boundary line belong to both owners. Good neighbors should agree to split the cost of the repair of fences or common boundary walls. Both owners are responsible for keeping the fence in good repair, and neither may remove it without the other's permission. In the event that trees hang over the fence, most states agree that the property owner may cut tree limbs and remove roots where they cross over the property line, provided that such pruning will not damage the basic health and welfare of the tree.
Alterations, Replacements, and More If you are thinking of building a new fence, or simply want to replace the old fence, there are some basic rules you will want to follow for the best results. The most important rule is to always consult with your neighbor before beginning work, repairs, or attaching anything to the fence. When we say "attach," we are talking lattice, signs, canvas, and more. You should also have an open conversation with your neighbor and, if they agree, get it in writing. If you are having trouble communicating with your neighbor, you may wish to seek legal advice before making your next move.
Neighbor Fence Disputes: Additional Resources If you or someone you know is having a dispute with their neighbor regarding a fence or another land-related issue, you can continue your research by clicking on the links below.
Select State and Local Landlord-Tenant Laws Property Rights: My Neighbor is a Nuisance Top 10 Reasons to Have Your Property Surveyed Get Legal Help to Resolve a Fence Dispute with Your Neighbor Disputes with neighbors can be difficult to resolve, especially if you and your neighbor are unable to discuss the situation calmly and rationally. If you're involved in a dispute with your neighbor and would like some help in resolving the issue, it may be a good idea to speak with a skilled real estate attorney near you today.
Next Steps Contact a qualified attorney to help you address difficulties with your neighbors.
For half the cost of what he thinks you owe him I'm quite sure you could find someone to take care of this problem w/o involving lawyers. Maybe less. Tell him to go pound sand then see what happens next. Oh, and hire a surveyor you can trust. He maybe built over the line a ways.
I built fence in Colorado for years. But that was about 10 years ago. It used to be if one land owner wanted a fence and the other did not. It was supposed to be build I think it was min 6” on his side and he was responsible for 100% of it. The other landowner had no right to it and wasn’t allowed to do anything to it including maintaining or allowed to tie onto it . Being he built it without the agreement that you would split the cost it looks like he’s paying for all it to me. My guess is the fence wasn’t on the original survey lines and he wants a new fence so you have no claim to anything on his side. That used to be if you didn’t contest it in 7 years it becomes his. But if you bought property with existing fences as boundaries then that isn’t the case. I would talk to other fence contractors not in that area and ask them what the current laws are or do some good ol googling yourself. But the way it sounds you may be getting a lawyer
Another option would be to talk with neighbor and try to work out an agreement that you’ll pay half if you were allowed hunting access on his place for several years. Might be a win win
No way I would just pay it. That of course sets him up to treat you the same the next time something comes up. And something always comes up.
I would start with a conversation and the next step comes after that depending on how it goes. You may learn a lot and find he's not that bad and it's a big communication screw up. Or you may find he's an ass and you now have a free fence and learn to be on your toes with anything that involves him.
Why would you just hand that guy 13k? If you didn't have an agreement you don't need to pay and since you didn't have an agreement and that fence is on your property line legally he will have to move it
I appreciate all the suggestions. I kind of feel like he has already drawn a line in the sand just by how he has approached the situation from the beginning, but still it would probably be best to reach out and try to talk to him. Another thing that complicates the situation is that Colorado is a ‘fence out’ state which means that if you don’t have a fence up then the neighbor’s livestock can roam on your land without it being trespassing. So, given that, he may be doing me a favor so that I don’t have his cattle running all over my property. I probably shouldn’t just assume that he is a jerk though until I pick up the phone and try to talk to him and let him actually prove it. I kind of feel bad for the fence and excavation guys because they already did the work and just want to get paid. Not my fault that they didn’t actually talk to the guy who’s supposed to be paying the other half of the bill before doing the job.
I bought ground in KS and have a guy like this for a neighbor. I told him if he ever shot a deer and it jumped the fence, we're both going to sit there and watch it bloat up in the sun. He'll never step foot on my place.
First thing I'd do is pay for a professional survey. If that fence is on my property, he'll remove it immediately. If he built it 6" on his place, good for him and hope he likes the fence he bought.
The neighbors on my other three sides are cool. We have all agreed that if someone shoots a deer and it crosses the line, shoot each other a text and go retrieve it.
This guy has been an ass for 60 plus years and I don't have time to play nice and put up with his crap. I'd expect you'll learn the same thing with your neighbor. No big deal just be sure to shoot for shoulders and drop critters on your place.
The fencing contractor is giving you the bill - Ask him for a copy of the contract to approve to see whom approved the work. You never were aware and never approved it, this is not your bill or problem. Go meet with your neighbor and if he gives you any grief, contact your attorney. I can't imagine dropping this bomb on your neighbor without any discussions.
Jordan's Link
The first thing I would confirm is where my actual, surveyed property line is. Many old, traditional fence lines, or property lines are not accurate. They can be significantly off. If this is the case, and your neighbor is just trying to patent an erroneous property line, you need to address it immediately, or live with it. Depending on how big the property is, it can have significant ramifications for future improvements, such as a well, if your property is smaller than you think based on an erroneous old property line. In any case, I wouldn't just accept what he built, and pay half.
I am a Land Surveyor. Issues like this are probably more common in my world than in most other people's worlds. Here are a couple options to start with in order to resolve the issue.
1) If you want/can spend some money to get the facts, I would contact a real estate/land attorney and have a consult to get their opinion. They can practice law where a surveyor has laws and rules to follow. Don't get a survey first as it may just waste money. If you decide to pursue the services of the attorney, they will likely request that a survey be done. Only get one then. Off record, if the fence is on the line, that is when joint ownership laws usually apply. If it is off the line on their parcel, they usually own it outright and it is their responsibility. Likewise if it is on yours. I have seen several instances where a fence was built without a survey and was completely on the wrong side of the line or started on one parcel and drifted onto the next. These instances always make for interesting results and I have seen judges make inconsistent rulings. They often ruin relationships of adjacent parcel owners, as well.
2) Find a good reason to value the fence, work on you relationship with your neighbor and pay the money. (I personally would have issue with a bill that I was being handed with no prior contract or notice of, but each circumstance is different)
3) Refuse to pay. The fence contractor didn't have a contract with you. They have some onus here too. This is likely to result in someone taking legal action against you, however.
Just some thoughts. Hope this helps.
Great suggestions. I really appreciate the insights from different backgrounds. I have contacted an attorney and will at least discuss the matter with him. I have also obtained the contact information of the landowner and his property manager and will likely contact them to discuss the issue as well. I don’t think $13k is chump change, but at the same time when you start adding up attorney fees, surveyors, and the agony and frustration of dealing with a situation like this and the potential for possible lawsuits, I wonder whether it may just be better to pay the money and move on. Not yet, but maybe.
Why hire an attorney at this point? Tell him your not paying. You knew nothing about, had no say in picking person building it, not the the type of fence you would have build, could have got a better price, didn't want a fence there in the first place and he can kiss your ass. Let him hire an attorney and sue you, then you can hire one. Until that point save your money.
A 20 minute meeting with an attorney can save a bunch down the road. Sometimes there is a good way and a not so good way to tell someone to kiss your ass when it comes to legal disputes.
Your neighbor has no ground to stand on, he contracted and built a fence without your knowledge. You didn't sign any contract or any paperwork. Not sure why you think he can make you pay?
First, get legal advice from A PRACTICING REAL ESTATE ATTORNEY. NOT any other kind of an attorney. I was a real estate broker in Colorado for 30 years. Much of my practice involved mountain property. Mostly vacant land. That said, I've a pretty good idea what the attorney will tell you but one thing my experience taught me was; don't give legal advice!
I would not just pay. I guess I'd talk to a lawyer first. The neighbor doesn't get to spend my money. That was a low blow. I don't think I could be beer drinking cool with the guy.
cnelk's Link
Seriously - I would contact Tom Martino 'The Troubleshooter' on 630 KHOW radio in Denver. His mission is to help people with issues like this one - see link to his website
The fact that he did this without discussing it with you indicates that he probably also "accidentally" has some of your land on his side of the fence. He's probably hoping to acquire it through adverse possession if you don't take action now to prevent it.
I don't see one advantage to paying a lawyer anything before you tell the guy to stick it. If you do that and he wants to sue you to try and get you to pay. Then spend money on an attorney. My guess is he has no ground to stand on and that will be that. Save your money.
What not reasonable is it is possible and if it was me I most likely would have done the labor myself. At very least got bids and had it done for less. You don't say what type of fence but if he wants you money for half you should have had a say it type of fence. Bobwire fence is it 3 string or 5? T post or wood post? Lots of things you should have a say in if you are going to pay half. Second you said excavator company. He has zero right to do any thing to ground with a excavator without your permission.
My question is: you bought a piece of property and didn’t get it surveyed?
If not, can you get a copy of the last survey done?
Also, Did he replace an old existing fence or is this a completely new fence. Do you have fences on the other 3 sides?
If I were in your shoes it wouldn’t end well (for anybody). Neighbors like this are what’s wrong with our world today.
I'm with JohnMc save your money and wait if you get sue than get a lawyer.
Dirty D - Spot on. This is exactly what is wrong with our world today.
Well, anybody can sue anybody so why wait for some misguided idiot to sue and put yourself in a position of having to respond? When I say get legal advice it's not a suggestion to initiate legal action. Get competent advice on whether or not the neighbor has recourse against you.
Wow, all the ranchers and farmers I know and or am related too, put in their own fences!
No resolution yet but I'll post a follow-up later. I'm going sheep hunting tomorrow in B.C. and will let it simmer for a few weeks while I'm gone enjoying no-fences in the sheep mountains!
If there was ever a partition fence before, between your property and his, you can simply tell him you are happy with the existing fence. But don't go complaining if his livestock get on your property. Colorado is a fence out state, not a fence in one.
So the excavator provided documented evidence that they trespassed on your land?
Colorado is a Fence out state regarding to live stock, so if he wants you your livestock to stay out he has to build the fence and pay for it. So I say he built it he pays.
Hire a surveyor to confirm the lines first.Actually you could approach the neighbor and tell him you are hiring a surveyor which half the cost is his.if the fence is legit and property lines are legit then you can move forward on equal ground.This will give you equal standing with him and the options are still open for discussion on the bill.He'll know not to just assume with you and as stated previously he might be a good guy.Some people just don't know how to communicate well. On a side note we bought 500 acres last year.Hired a surveyor after I noticed a discrepancy in the GIS map from the assumed survey on the sale.It ended up being over a 100' discrepancy.The previous fence was installed on the path of least resistance.With over 15 acres left out of the fence.I went to the 3 adjoining neighbors and explained to them the issue.They all knew just waiting on someone to notice.One offered to purchase the other had no protest.Just saying it might surprise you but at least you'll know exactly where the property line is.
My former neighbor decided to build a new fence with big stone gate pillars while I was off hunting. He didn't get a survey, only estimated the lot line based on a county aerial overlay, which he insisted was accurate because it was "copyrighted". He was not the brightest bulb...
Anyway, when I got back I hired a surveyor, located the corner pins, and made him move the fence and break down the big stone pillar that was on my side. Man was he pissed. At first he argued with the surveyor, claiming anybody could have put those pins there. But he ended up moving the fence, and sold the property shortly after.
You either challenge the bullies or become bullied = It is your property and your property lines to protect or donate. This is so simple and your neighbor is trying to bully you and is a piece of dog crap. I am sorry if this seems harsh, but the neighbor that pulled this is way out of line and needs to be put in place now
BowmanMD,
Some of the advice above may be good but I would recommend just talking face to face with your neighbor first before any of this. Lawyers, surveys, lawsuits are only going to start a pissing match that no one wins in the end. All of that may not be needed? Give him a chance.
"...only estimated the lot line based on a county aerial overlay,..."
I don't know if that's a problem everywhere, but it sure is in Larimer County. The borders on my property don't line up on the arial overlay, and it's obvious because I resurveyed between two separate, adjacent properties I owned, creating access to the road for one by using the road centerline as the property lines. Our entire area area is skewed.
Surveyor's joke of the day... "GIS" means Get It Surveyed! There are no GIS lines in any system that are accurately placed. They are all inherently wrong. The only question is how far off are they in any area or system. I still advise as above. Don't get a survey, in a case like this, without consulting an attorney, but definitely try to discuss amicable solutions with your neighbor.
"I have also obtained the contact information of the landowner and his property manager and will likely contact them to discuss the issue as well. " When I seen this statement it raises a concern to me. So you may have an absentee landowner and a property manager who advises him on the place. The landowner may not be a bad person but his manager could be a piece of crap. You never said how much land is in question not that it matters but if it is hunting property it must be sizable.
The real question at hand here. Opener is tomorrow, new hunting land and you are heading to BC. I might know someone who is willing to babysit the land while you are gone if there are elk on it.
The real question at hand here. Opener is tomorrow, new hunting land and you are heading to BC. I might know someone who is willing to babysit the land while you are gone if there are elk on it.
I grew up on a farm in Wisconsin. On each of your boundary 40s you were responsible for the right half as you faced your neighbor if either had stock that required fencing. Your state must have some simple rule for this, border fences are everywhere in cattle country.
Man, I hate hearing about these type disputes between neighbors.
Our modest 70 acre property in cattle and horse country is a postage stamp compared to the ranches that border us on 3 sides. When we found it, the old barbed wire fence lines were in horrible shape, and in a few spots are no where close to the actual property line.
Before closing, I budgeted to replace the fence that parallels the county road on one side of our property, then I met with my neighbors to discuss how they wanted to handle the other 3 sides. None of us were too interested in splitting the cost of a survey and new fencing. So we made the handshake agreement that if my livestock ended up on their property, it was my responsibility to find and repair the fence where they were getting out. And they would do the same if their livestock ended up on my property. That was 22 years ago, and we've honored that agreement ever since without any disputes.
I guess my point is good old fashioned honest communication can go a long ways. In this case, the neighbor certainly was wrong to build a fence without the OP's agreement, then expect the OP to pay for half. But, I think the OP could have avoided this situation if he would have had a bit more foresight and addressed the issue before it became a problem.
At this point, for me it would boil down to whether or not the new fence was needed, and does it add $13K worth of value to the OP's property? If so, pay the bill, but let the neighbor know it will never happen again. If not, then tell the neighbor to pound sand, and prepare to lawyer up if necessary.
Matt
@ bowmanMD, I sell real estate in Western Colorado and the shenanigans that have went on over the years is unreal, especially with fences. You are not responsible for any payment that you did not agree upon. Your neighbor has no grounds to stand on, you would beat this in court all day long! Curious where you bought land. Feel free to contact me anytime. 970-778-0327 Dan
Can't wait to hear how this shakes out...
Some observations and thoughts: 1. Try diplomacy first since you might have to live near the guy for a while, but go into that with a line drawn in the sand where you will not let him push you around. 2. Without a previously discussed legal agreement and/or 30 days' written notice from the neighbor you likely have an argument for absolutely zero responsibility for the fence. 3. If you actually like the fence, tell the neighbor you want a new lot line survey at his cost or to show you the one the fence builders followed BEFORE you pay him one red cent. Surveys can get expensive, I looked into one for my 5 acres recently and it was pushing $3,000. 4. People going on your land without permission is trespassing, plain and simple. The fence contractor and the neighbor they were hired by are very likely both guilty of trespassing. If they or the neighbor try to get hostile about the money, call the sheriff and file a report asap, you'll have that hanging over their heads. You could possibly even have them for property damage as well if they drove all over your place while building the fence.