Contributors to this thread:
So if there is 1.3 million acres of public land in ks. How do I run into non resident hunters on every piece of public ground I hunted this year. Are all non residents hunting public? None hunt private? None have leases or ground they own? No matter how I calculate the numbers it seems I would have a decent chance of finding some public without non resident hunters. I hunted Clinton,Perry,John Redmond,Melvern and the flinthills nwr. I also hit tons of wiha out west. With all having the same results. Flinthills was by far the worst. I ran into a group from Michigan that had 10 guys hunting there for 3 weeks straight.
Cause less than 25% of that is actually huntable.
Weird... I've been all over WIHA in the Flint Hills the past couple of weeks. Have yet to see another single hunter. I must have impeccable timing.
Or.. I just make an effort to avoid people. I'm sure if I hit Marion reservoir, Eldorado, Milford, etc I'd experience the same results....
Lots of little gems out there no one barely bothers with, and I am thankful for em.
Not arguing there is too many tags issued though.
Even at 25% how can it be there are so many non residents on public ground. Did Ks go to over the counter?
The acreage you mentioned is a tiny fraction of the state. Only 1.8% to be exact.
More NR's hunt KS than residents.
I sure wish the state would buy some of these big ranches that come up for sale.
Thornton,
As hunting became so wildly popular for Nr in Kansas we didnt adapt and I could not agree more with you. The first few years of WIHA were great until people realized it was a real estate book advertising those who were willing to lease. We seen two local hunters ( hunting a youth mentor area) and all the other hunters were Non Residents. Most of the bucks we saw in trucks were sub 120" young deer. I have a hard time thinking you drive from Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois and shoot bucks on opening day in that age class but they all did. Great that they filled their tags but that is a long trip for those deer.
We need ground and we need it bad. As WIHA gets less desirable year after year with the best parcels being leased to private parties Kansas needs to either buy land or reduce tags. Even the game warden and land manager we talked with asked for us to please talk to commissioners. They know where we are headed if things do not change.
Talking to commissioners does little good while they run scaird of the leg.
Having more public access ground will just compound the problem, those acres would be over hunted as well. Those of us that were on the front lines supporting Kdwp’s deer management plan and against the commercialization of the deer resource back in the 90’s and early 2000 years warned the commission and legislature about where it would lead, we predicted accurately what was going to and has happened since.
The people that wanted to cash in on the demand to hunt deer in Kansas were not there to do anything but sell deer hunts, sell and lease land, turn deer into a cash crop. They claimed they wanted to reduce crop damages, car/deer accidents, over population etc in their lobbying efforts. When solutions were offered to address their claims, they only wanted more NR buck tags, nothing else, because the NR buck tags were the only way they could attract money. I addressed several lobbyists that claimed their land was over ran with deer offering to bring in several bow hunters with me to reduce the doe population on their land, to pressure the deer to move on, none of them accepted my offer unless we were willing to pay them for access to their land and their “problem”.
The only thing that will happen now that deer commercialism is here, when the trophy deer numbers are better somewhere else, when the resource is depleted down to where you don’t regularly hear of 170-200” bucks being shot, the crowd will then move on to the next state.
I often hear people whining about losing their hunting spot because someone offered more money for the lease. I also hear a lot of farmers crying that they can longer afford to lease land to grow their operations because deer hunters are willing to pay more than they can and still make a profit off it. NR folks are paying stupid high premiums to buy land here also pricing out farmers at auctions and thru realtors buying without seeing the land in person first. We warned them about this happening prior to 2000 as well.
I would infiltrate from the inside. If you don’t think the state will ever do anything then get to the landowners. It’s not easy and it takes a little time and work but it could pay off in the future. The state can’t force a landowner to do anything with their land except to pay taxes. They can’t force them them to let an outfitter to rape their land and do all the other things that depletes and lessens the quality of wildlife.
I’m still an NR so I don’t have the right to complain cause I just have a few years invested up there. I haven’t went through the heartache of spending 30 or 40 something years of watching the land go downhill like many of y’all have.
But the few years I have been there I know most of the farmers and ranchers are good people. Yeah some of them might not care too much about the wildlife but if you take time to show them what it means to some people along with helping them do their daily chores it sure doesn’t hurt anything.
Hey if it fails and you don’t get anywhere at least you make good friendships with people for the rest of your life and that doesn’t hurt anything either. You got to try something.
One solution, that doesn't get much steam. Require the NR to purchase two doe tags before they can purchase buck tag . Maybe, inflate the doe tags to a steep price. Require outfitters to enforce this rule, with the loss of their license as the penalty. I'm just throwing things out there, to get the state to change things, it has to be profitable for them
too many non-res tags (and I'm non-res)
The only way things will improve will be to go back to the model we had before NR hunting. Back to a resident draw and a 3 month season. I never wanted NR deer hunting here because I knew what would happen, and it did. It was never going to stay at the 1500 tags they promised. And because they allowed NR in, they had to make ignorant changes for residents. 1995 was the gateway to the mess we have now.
Michael- Many of us have done exactly that for most of our lives, it works up to a point, but when $$$$ offers came into the picture for leases, trophy fees and hunts, goodwill gestures and longtime friendships don't pay the bills.
John, in my area, more doe tags would be devastating to the unit I am hunting in, same for the Western Units. The only place there are excessive numbers of does is where hunting is not allowed or there is limited access and only bucks are taken. Commercialism has compounded that problem, not helped the overpopulation issues, which was also accurately predicted back in the day. Outfitters are not required to be licensed in Kansas, another result of the commercialism lobby at work. When legislators are involved and profiting from deer commercialism, you will not change their minds in committee hearings, the only way to encourage change is by voting them out of office and replacing them with someone that values the wildlife resource more.
Brad- Too many tags or too easy to get a tag every year?
Jeff- That will never happen, unless the deer are completely depleted. Every change to the regs since 1995 has happened at the request of the folks wanting to sell deer.
Oh I know, just making a point that we will never enjoy deer hunting like we used to.
There were more NR hunters in the little cafes over the weekend than resident hunters from my observations. We probably have more Georgians in Kansas hunting right now than will be attending the Peach Bowl;).
I'm at a point in my life to where I'm going to say let them have it. It's not worth putting out the time and expenses to hunt in my own state. The state doesn't give 2 sh### about what we have to say or our concerns. I've called state reps. I've went to commission meetings I've talked to biologists. All for naught.
Can the wardens look up a name to see if a NR has bought a resident tag?
They surely can look up a name to know what tags were issued, but will they?
Back when we were first pushing back against people profiting from selling licenses, I submitted a request for the public record list of those that had been issued t-tags. Surprisingly they sent it to me. I went thru the list highlighting the ones that had been issued more than one tag per household. There were multiple violations highlighted on every page of the report.
When I showed it and discussed my findings to the head of law enforcement of KDWP at convention that year, he asked how I had discovered the violations, asked that I turn over the list. I told him that he and his officers should be doing the same thing I had done, reviewing why people from out of state were selling and profiting from Kansas deer tags that were being sold on-line, and why Kansas landowners were getting away with filing illegal applications and being issued multiple tags that were being sent to the same addresses?
I left the list on a KBA table for other members to see and review. When I returned to pick it up later after the meeting, it was gone. I expected to read about some folks being charged for illegally getting the tags, but I never did. There were a few politicians involved in passing the legislation to allow the tags on the list that showed they had received multiple t-tags by altering the way their addresses were spelled and by applying under their children’s names as well as their own.
"Brad- Too many tags or too easy to get a tag every year?"
as a non-res who's hunted KS for 22 years .... I think the biggest factor is allowing outfitters
I hunt a small section of a large creek that runs miles each direction of our little place and the outfitter a few years ago leased the 160 acres to the east of us
I'm not kidding when I say that outfitter has 3-4 hunters on that little area every week for 10-12 weeks and they kill a lot of 120-140" bucks because at $3500-4000 or whatever they're taking home something right ? That same stretch we used to hunt and never killed more than 1-2 bucks from it, now its 15-20 bucks being taken from it. Not only that, all those leased farms are where local kids used to hunt and now they can't - that aint good for hunting either.
WIHA used to be good hunting, now trucks parked everywhere, so yes, tag increases hurt as well.
If I could do it, I'd reduce tags 50% for non-res and stop outfitters
This argument has been going on for about 30 years here. trebarker, myself, and many others have spent thousands of hours and dollars trying to inject resonable thinking into the deal, along with state biologists and big game people that we hire. You eventually lose when big money and politics enter in the deal. We still try but it's not an easy deal. Of course the huge ego hunting thing that now is prevalant adds. Just turn on Outdoor TV any Sat. morning and watch all the huge whitetails in Kansas. They all seem to be shot in day light but ALL the film is in complete dark, WHY. We will continue to try but it's frustrating.
Be very thankful if you have private land to hunt in Kansas. Doesn’t matter if you own it or lease it……..just hope it stays that way. I happen to be in the above category, but also have enjoyed success on WIHA in the last 20 years. All I see is increase in tag numbers and numerous pictures of nice bucks shot on social media in Kansas. It’s gonna get worse before it ever gets better….IMO.
Some of you guys have been under a rock for the last 20 yrs. "It's gonna get worse before it ever gets better". Bud it's been that way for a long time. It's now trickling down to NR's. We residents gave up a long time ago.
Jeff - appreciate the great insight. Wondering why I stopped commenting on these post several years ago……. and you just reminded me. I forget that “ we residents gave up a long time ago”.
How did they increase tags from 22000 last year to 29000 this year? Oh let me guess to meet demand. Just get it over with Kansas. Get out the lube and go over the counter. You already screwed the resident hunters a long time ago.
Bones I don't remember you posting on here 20 years ago.
Not sure what to think of deer management right now. I've personally hunted 3 bucks that would score over Boone and Crockett this year. The first disappeared early, the 2nd was killed over a feeder by the neighbor, and the third i missed last night. I've never had that happen before in one season. In fact, I've hunted years in between seeing a boone and Crockett buck. With the ease of cell cams on feeders, bowhunters have begun to let more little ones walk because it's easier than ever now to kill a big one. Feeders have disrupted natural deer movement, and retain big bucks on smaller properties,but I do think more big ones are being shot because of it.
I don’t know what to think of anything right now. This thread makes me feel tired…thinking about getting a testosterone shot in the morning and regroup.
Dang it Thornton. Did he just get by you or did your shot miss? I would sure love to see a pic of you holding one of them Booners.
Well there is a guy who posted of shooting a Mule Deer Fawn getting blasted on fb. He mentioned I Was not going home empty handed. I think i the end it comes down to us as hunters. We need to get organized and voice our opposition. Right now Mule Deer should be the top of every hunter's hunters mind. No matter the weapon of preference or style of hunting. They just keep losing ground and their numbers and dispersal in Kansas continue to decline. Three days of being in my home area and not one Mule Deer sighting. It will not matter how many acres we have to hunt if the game we hunt is not inhabiting the area any longer. I use to see 300+ head of Mule deer in this area just 10 short years ago.
Feeder killed bucks in states that allow them should not be considered fair chase harvests.
HiJac
Be Still- pretty sure I flat out missed. He was a beautiful 6x6 about 180", maybe bigger. He was walking and my shots were between 250 and 350. Using a Suppressor and he didn't spook much. Normally i can easily make that shot, but i haven't had my crosshairs on a buck like that since 99' and i had decided to use some 143 gr ELD-X bullets that day instead of my usual 129 gr SST that shoot flatter. Took the hound out next morning late and nothing.
A buck like that would sure get me worked up. Hopefully y’all will cross paths again.
Did you zero that rifle in after switching gr/bullets Jason? At that distance it can make a huge difference. I’m sure you did.
I agree the state should buy more land, but I hope they do it far away from me. Some of the stories I hear about NR’s and Public Hunting makes my head hurt… and I experienced it once hunting on Ft. Riley. Did not like anything about it.
This particular rifle shoots any bullet in the same place. I can literally use 129 gr bullets, and switch to 143 gr, and point of impact does not move even 1/8" of an inch. Probably due to the semi heavy barrel.
I would love to see that buck. Good luck on getting another chance!
Unfortunately unless we/hunters/KBA etc. start playing the same lobbying game that the others have been playing for years nothing will change, in fact it will get worse. The KDWP Commission has made many, what I consider to be good, recommendations over the years that have been squashed in legislation. Said it before, we need someone...or a group...lobbying for resident hunters, and yes it will cost money.
Sito how do we do that. Do you hire a lawyer and sue the state based on the old mission statements or because they straight out lied about how many tags would be allowed. Or do you go another route?? Just have no idea how or what to do to change it. I wish I was a billionaire then maybe my voice would be heard in Topeka. I used to believe in our political system but not anymore. The wants of a few seem to always win because of money.
It needs to be said, 9 times out of 10 it’s the Republican Party. It’s very unfortunate that “Conservative” has lost its meaning within the party… and I sure ain’t Liberal.
Kyle give me an address to send the money to. My poor self might not can send much but I’ll least send some. Everybody…let’s go.
Mike send money to:
125 E. Main St. Anthony, KS 67003 United States
Attention: Ventilation system
Alright Jason I’ll get some headed that way in a couple days. I’ll try and get some other people on board.
Hope y’all ain’t playing a joke…had to look up what Kyle was saying here like I sometimes do. Sure hope y’all don’t have this money going to some kind of business or lab that doesn’t have nothing to do with conservation of wildlife.
You got me Jason:?) When I never heard back from you I called Erica from work cause my job yesterday was only a few miles from my bank. Told her to look up the address and text me the name of the business. She texted me “Idle Hour” so I stop by and got a money order and got it sent off.
Trying to laugh about it cause I know it was just a joke and I should have checked into it better. Hopefully that business is honest and I can get my money back…it’s a pretty decent chunk. I’m glad I took a pic of it…I got a habit of doing that before I send money orders off.
I’ll send a pic of it to you but please don’t call them yet cause I don’t want any confusion. I’ll call them later and try to work it out. I’ll let you know later if I need your help.
Never heard back from me??? I got your text sent to me at Noon today...did I miss a separate call or something? I will stay clear of this one. If you bring "her", I hope "she" doesn't punch me at this year's KBA Convention ;?)
I was talking about not hearing back from you yesterday when I said I hope y’all are not playing a joke.
It’s all good though. I overnighted it and I just called the bank and it shows to be already cashed…that was super fast. I called up there and talked to someone but the owner wasn’t there but I was told he wasn’t a person that likes jokes. She told me he was a very honest person though and I should be alright with the money.
It’s really my fault I guess. I was just in one of those moods yesterday that I really wanted to start doing something about the deer herd up there. I was ready for the talking to start turning into the doing. Just talking about it ain’t going to do nothing…we got to go.
When I seen “Idle Hour” I did think that was kind of a weird name for a deer conservation group. Thought well maybe it was some kind of reverse psychology and maybe y’all was building up this big group under radar but in reality it’s not Idle at all. Anyways I didn’t have time to mess around so I just sent it.
But yeah don’t worry none about it cause anybody that knows me knows that I love to joke around. I bet at the convention you’re going to be making her a sandwich:?)
Be-Still- Did you get anywhere getting your money back? I appreciate your willingness to contribute to the fund! If that happened to me someone would be having that $$$$.$$ rung out of their ass!
Not yet Randy. I did get to talk to the owner and yep he’s definitely not the joking type. He was curious when he got it so he cashed it right away.
He said since it was a joke that I can get it back by working a day there. Since it’s so much money it will definitely be worth my time by working one day washing dishes or something for sure.
Told him I’ll be headed there next week or if not then I’ll leave an extra day early on the way to the convention in March.
Oh and he asked me….who was this person that played this joke on you? He didn’t sound too happy so I didn’t give him no name. Just said don’t worry about it and I’ll just come up there and give you a day’s work….see Jason I had your back:?)
Mike....let me know when you'll be washing dishes at the Idle Spur. Me and a few others will make sure to come by and create enough dishes for a full days' worth of wages!
Alright Jason I hate to do this to you ole buddy ole pal but it’s time to let people know you’ve been had.
I called Jason earlier today and decided to tell him it was a joke cause I didn’t feel like letting him suffer any longer. Y’all should have heard the relief in his voice. Told him I never sent the money order but if the owner would’ve went along with it that I would’ve gotten him real good.
Now he was too stubborn to say it on here but here’s one of his texts to me the other day. Lol I had him crawling. Up above here he already knew and he was going to try and get Randy going. Sorry Jason you got to take it like a man:?)
