Possible poaching around Harper
Kansas
Got a call from a buddy last night. 12 game warden trucks at a house a few miles from Harper. Some New York guys own supposedly outfitters. He talked to one of the wardens and the wardens said he couldn't comment on it but in his words it's really bad.
Hope the details become public.
Makes me see red everytime hearing about this. Hopefully details are forthcoming.
How someone can take any pride or satisfaction in illegally killing deer is beyond my comprehension. Drag em behind the truck through town and hang em from a tree is my vote.
Wouldn't be surprised, but haven't seen any NY tags on my drives round them parts.
I talked with the game warden last night. Many that didn't draw are getting caught with illegal tags. I turned one in to him last night.
Tags are soooo easy to print it's bound to happen.
He said lots of illegal landowner tenants when they don't draw. Another reason leasing is bad. When they pay that much to lease, they are going to find a way to hunt here, legal or illegal. And I am sure many of the landowners who lease land to these NR know they have illegal tags. But they want the money. I gave him the address and all the information needed to get a guy I suspect is buying an illegal tag. He has hunted here every year for the last 25 years, at least that is what he told me. He purchased 15 acres with a house and told the landowner where he hunts that he bought it so he could always hunt here. He is still here hunting so I believe he is buying an any season tag. I won't say where he is from cause I suspect he visits this site. I hope they nail him. Problem is wardens are now cut down to 40 hours a week. So those guys down at Harper are done for the week.
I've known many land owners who had no clue if their leasors had proper tags. They have land with zero interest in hunting, no clue what the regulations are. The NR's show up, visit, are friendly, pay good money, shoot some deer and go home. Very informal and hands off for the landowners.
Catscratch, I would guess lots of farmer/ranchers don’t know the hunting regs very well, or at all. They leave it up to and trust the people leasing their land to hunt, to know and follow the regulations.
Maybe start holding landowners accountable as well. If someone is hunting with illegal tags on private land, give a fine to the landowners as well. I know of land that is leased from $4k up to $10K, and these are smaller tracts. I am sure those leasing 30,000 acres are paying way more than that. That is a large sum of untaxable money.
As the saying goes " Greed is the root of all evil ". Unfortunately the states have recognized that greed and are participating in it as well.
Many of the farmers only see deer as pests that damage their crops and their bottom line. Insurance companies don't like deer either because they have to pay out on claims when the animals are hit.
Money drives the deer regulations no matter which way you look at it.
Yep unfortunately big money equals big deer. To bad its becoming what most normal guys hated. It will only get worse. Every piece of private I grew up hunting has either sold or is now leased. I have
Unfortunately, everything is backwards thinking when it comes to deer management.
Areas with too many deer, it’s too costly to thin out the herd unless you are willing to use the “depredation permits” (which I am not), but you may still have to pay for processing if you donate them. I had big plans after rifle season… too expensive to shoot any does.
Im not sure how a lease is “non taxable” money? And Im not sure about the logic behind holding landowners accountable for illegal activity?
If someone is selling drugs in your rental house I doubt the homeowner is liable, unless they are actively participating and knowledgeable of the illegal activity… and they shouldn’t be. If they know it’s going on or supporting it, that’s another story.
Holding land owners liable for hunting infractions on their land would result in a lot of land becoming unavailable for hunting, by residents and non residents.
Non of this makes sense. Vetting tag holders makes more sense. If you want a land owner ot tennant tag you need to apply prior to the start of season. How many lifetime licenses that were originally meant for just the license portion that now grant you all tags at resident prices and qualifications.
That's what I was getting at Ray. If you own land, you probably should be vetting the people you are leasing to. And I said "maybe". Just threw that out there as an idea. When cash is exchanged, I doubt that it is being filed as income. You might also want to read up on a landlords responsibility when drugs are being dealt on their property. They can be held accountable.
Dale land is already extremely hard to come by for access. If it would make it harder for NR's to lease, I am all for it.
Matte, good post. All licenses should be bought at the court house in person with 2 proofs of residence and KS drivers license. I always thought it was BS to have a lifetime license and then move out of state and be able to buy a residents tag. The lifetime license should be honored when you move out of state but it should not qualify you for a resident deer tag. If you don't live here you don't live here.
What I’m getting at…I’m not sure landowners are the ones who should be “vetting” tag holders. That makes zero sense.
You can only be held accountable if you are aware of the illegal activity.
The state should 100% be making dang sure the tags are in the right hands. I can attest to the fact NR’s are buying tenant tags based off of “helping” a farmer bale hay for 3 days a year. I even turned one guy in, nothing ever happened.
As for the cash. If someone is dropping $30k in cash, someone is paying taxes on it, at some point, but that’s crazy money. But I get your point on that.
You are correct. This is all the fault of the state legislature, kdwp commissioners, and the kdwp. I just have a sour taste in my mouth when it comes to resident landowners leasing to outfitters and NR hunters. And the state should have a bullet proof system of buying tags. But if I were leasing land, I would make them show me their tags every year.
The guys leasing mine are all Kansas residents and most of the leasing in this area (not including outfitters) are residents, but point taken.
It’s the outfitters that makes me lose sleep and it’s really bad when an outfitter is a poacher as well. If you want to knock out a bunch of NRs though try to ban them. I would bet 95 percent or more is NRs that make up the outfitters’s clients. I think they’re the ones making the most money sometimes too instead of the landowners.
Some of these landowners have worked hard all of their lives to work and keep hold of their land. They’ve been through droughts, floods, fires, and all the things that come along with making a living off the land. Then comes a long a person that hasn’t done one dam thing to the land and starts making a big profit off of the landowner and his land. Just ain’t right and rubs me raw.
Interesting comments re lifetime licenses. I know several guys,( not me) including one of my brothers that bought a lifetime license before moving out of state. They have not lived in Ks in 30 plus years but have essentially the same hunting rights as residents. And they hunt Ks a lot, every year. I presume the states logic was “let’s grab some cash from these guys leaving, cause they won’t be buying licenses in the future or hunting here any way.” If that was the thought process, it was not correct in the guys I know.
I bought a lifetime license when I graduated high school. The state was still closed to NR's and I didn't know where I would end up in life, but I knew my family wasn't going anywhere. I wanted to keep the tradition of hunting with my dad and friends when I came home (if at all possible). Ended up staying in state and haven't regretted it one bit. Prettiest and most productive state in the US for a hunter/fisherman in my opinion.
I’m a LL holder who never had intentions of moving elsewhere the first decade or so I had the license. Now I use it annually to come home and see family/friends while doing what I love. I’d be perfectly fine with some tweaks to the current system for NR LL folks. Would be very content paying full non resident prices for tags. Also think LL deer tags should be NR tags that come out of the NR quota before the general draw is held, muley stamps included. Paying full price, giving up the statewide/any weapon options, and not inflating the NR presence even further while still having the guarantee to come home and partake is a nice middle ground to me.
We’ve got an outfitter here that all they do is strap a ladder stand on and dump a pile of corn or set up a feeder within 20 yards. I took pictures this year of them dumping corn within 3 yards of one of our landowners property lines. I’m not sure how they would hunt it, as there’s probably not more than 5-10 acres of timber on the whole section… but they got as close to it as they could. If they shot a deer on it, it would have likely died on the opposite side of their lease. Some landowners require a “total lease”… meaning even if it’s an 80 with no trees they still have to lease it. They are covering every square inch.
Doesn’t matter if it’s a hedgerow or who owns the property next to it. Lazy, selfish, and unethical IMO.
Another outfitter has a feeder within 40 yards of one of my property lines.
Outfitting or leasing is truly “a get rich quick” scheme…. And I’d say you are correct at least 95% are NR’s.
It WILL NEVER change, that’s why I quit fighting it and leased some of my best land out.
A few solutions to problems.
From today any Lifetime holder is grandfathered in two ways. Purchased before 2023 or hunting with relation that holds a resident tag.
Start with an 80/20 tag allocation Resident/ NR
NR lifetime tags count towards the 20%.
If a 5-year plan is instated and we see a net increase of participating Resident hunters reduce to a 85/15 quota and again if we see resident increases to a final 90/10.
Tighten up the belts and bring back quality to the state. Trust in the tag allocation and the hunters participating.
A lifetime license shouldn't equate to a lifetime tag. It wasn't that long ago that residents had to apply for a tag and enter the draw system for a firearms tag. Just the opposite out here Ray in regards to who is leading the land. I know of one resident that leases 4000 acres for him and his son. He is a retired doctor. All the rest is least by NR and outfitters with most being leased by just everyday hunters.
Ray I will add that there is not very many resident hunters out here. I know it's different in extreme southeast KS. I lived 15 miles from you for 30 years. The strip pits made it easy access for many years for locals. But I taught and lived in ne ks, nw ks, and west central ks and out here deer hunting is comprised of NR. Not one student in our building deer hunted this year. Just me and another teacher. No one even talks about it. It is group of 5 or 6 from Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Colorado, Michigan, Oklahoma, etc that leases all the land. Then there are outfitters leasing large tracts. Much different from your neck of the woods. In the last 2 weeks I have mailed close to 2 dozen letters out over to lease a small tract of land for only myself. I have been turned down everytime. They are already leased and none have been leased to outfitters.
How many lifetime licenses have been issued? I got mine in 1986 or 87 which was not long after they first were available. My license number is between 1000 and 2000, I assume that the licenses, at least at that time, were numbered sequentially when purchased. I later moved elsewhere but return yearly to hunt both deer and turkey. In conjunction (A formal partnership) with another LL holder, a Kansas resident, and a NR I own a few hunderd acres of land some tillable the rest pasture. I would guess that many, if not most, LL's that return frequently to hunt have retained some sort of connections with Kansas residents. Anyhow....are there really enough LL's around who hunt Kansas on a regular basis to affect overall deer hunting when compared to the, it seems to me, rather large number of NR's tags issued each year?
Yes I believe there are probably 5k+ that come back each year. There were thousands sold before they got strict on the rules.
That is terrible. And a lot of NR's hunting that shouldn't. Make them go through the draw.
I believe Writer told us that the Real Tree guys pulled this on the lifetime licenses. I wonder if Kansas got any state income tax revenue off of them when they got that residency?
One story I heard from a fellow who follows KWP activities said that the original idea of the lifetime license system was to collect the license fees in a sort of endowment fund that would throw off an increasing amount of funding as the number of LL's sold increased. According to the fellow mentioned that worked ok for a few years until one year the KWP needed some "Extra" money for a "Good" cause at which point the LL license "Fund" as a whole became just another source of money with no endowment savings function. I have no idea as to the truth of the story however it does seem in keeping with typical government money handling. Matte....where does the estimate of 5000 LL holders returning to hunt "Each year" come from? Any idea how many LL's have been sold annually since the program began? Or maybe just how many have been sold in total to date? When I purchased my LL I had to fill out a form and send to Pratt along with some other residence related information including as I recall a copy of my Kansas drivers license. There were a couple of other documents I think but I don't remember specifically.
When exactly did this thread change from a potential “real bad” poaching thread to a “LL” thread?
Does OP (Deerdummmyy) have an update?
I was curious from the comments and looked at my "lifetime license." My number is in the 8000's and was issued in 1998.......I have no clue how many are out there at this point???
No updates yet. Buddy there said the next day those guys left and he hasn't seen them since. He thinks it was trespassing and poaching.
