Contributors to this thread:
There was a giant typical shot in my neck of the woods. Rifle kill.
I don’t know the person personally so I don’t feel right sharing photos, and I cannot confirm the score.
However, from the photos I’ve seen there could be very few deductions and if the gross typical score of 216” holds, I believe it’s going to challenge the current state record… and it’s a fairly clean 10 point (split brows and a very small drop). If it had more points I cannot see them in the photos provided, so it may have more deductions than I see. Hate judging from photos.
Either way it’s a giant. I also know of at least 4 other bucks near or over 200” within an hours drive… one coming off the ammo plant somewhere around 220”.
Some big deer killed this year despite the severe drought… really surprises me.
Without pics no debating it lol.
Really wasn’t wanting to start a debate about the score. It might have more deductions than I’m thinking, but if the score is true then I can see it challenging it. My main point is that some giants have been killed this year… and from what I’ve seen, several across the state.
A real brute up at Ft. Riley… just find it interesting with the drought.
So Thornton got the big typical and didn’t tell us:?) maybe we’ll get lucky and he’ll tell the story to us one day.
Ray down here an older guy told me one time that in drought years he seemed to notice the horns always seemed to be bigger.
I've noticed in drought years the antlers are more brittle. I see more euros coming in since the racks are somewhat busted up.
Antler growth requires a high level of water and nutrition to grow to their full potential. I was always under the impression that in drought years antlers on avg. were smaller than non-drought years due to overall development being hindered but also the density of the bone is diminished leading to more busted up racks.
Figured, since their bodies could be somewhat stressed during prolonged drought conditions (like this year for sure) they divert nourishment/minerals, etc. to their body more as a whole vs. to the antlers.
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but I also think there may have been some recent studies that also suggest there can be a “lag-time” of a year or two on the effects of drought. Meaning the drought experienced by the doe (while pregnant) or during a buck fawns first year of life (2022-2023) can influence antler size a year or two later. Drought can also have an adverse effect resulting in reduced birth rates.
Will have to watch and see if KDWP expects and clarifies the same regarding reduced birth rates in an effort to “strongly” recommend reduced whitetail/mule deer and pronghorn tag quotas to the State Legislature.
Wouldn’t that be nice!
In 2012 (EHD year, horrible drought, but not as bad as this year) my wife killed a buck I thought had died 2 years earlier. It was weird, but he showed up in rifle season. He was much wider and had more mass, but his tines were stuby and his main beams seemed like they just stopped growing. They seemed lighter/less dense. A lot of the sheds I found from that year also were abnormally light it seemed.
Some were normal.
After she killed that buck I found the huge buck I had pictures of in velvet dead about a week later, his rack grew 30” from the year before… scored around 180” with a 7” drop tine). He was in the creek bed, fortunately we never had a rain to bring the creek up or I likely would have never found him.
I would like to know exactly where those deer were staying during the summer heat.
I can’t put my finger on why, but some deer seem to be affected by a drought more than others. I believe 2012 was the year that 300”+ buck was found in Kansas as well. So I’m not sure a drought alone is the factor in antler growth.
I think if a deer can find a cooler spot, have adequate nutrition and decent water even multiple 110 degree days and dry conditions won’t affect their antler growth.
I’ve been in the woods/outside a lot when it’s been extremely hot… I’ve found places in the timber where I know it’s at least 30 degrees cooler than out in the open. Get a good breeze on a hill and hunker down in tall soybeans and you won’t even break a sweat. Guess I got long winded, but to summarize I think summer habitat plays a huge role.
Any deer shot today that is a record needs to have an asterisk beside it. Without knowing the weapon, whether is was baited, tower blind, etc it just doesn't rank in comparison to the deer shot of yesterday. As far as drought, it didn't effect deer in the least out here. Other than their habitat being destroyed, making them easier targets. No more hiding in the CRP, there isn't any.
Failed crops seem to have provided a sanctuary for a handful of really nice deer on a quick trip out there this week. I was impressed at how many mature bucks of both species we turned up.
The #4 archery buck was killed up here somewhere this season. At least I suppose it was up here, because the local archery shop said he was their customer. Grossed 200 7/8", net 190 7/8". Be interesting to hear the story.
If the story comes out hopefully they’ll show a pic of him too…I bet he looks big.
Didn't take you as a "Tik-Tok'r" JT ;?)
Was looking at Kansas top 20 list of archery whitetails and it needs an update a 191 3/8 killed in 2018 that is entered in Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett is not on list.
Jason- That deer was killed outside of Hutch...
Close to the city limits Fulldraw?
I watch the dang Tik Tok BS Kyle. Not sure why, probably for the hilarious stuff. I swear it's making my attention span shorten by the day.
No, that one wasnt close to the city limits.
I am going to be scoring one that amazes me. My buddy shot it on October 31st so January will be able to get close to an official score. It will break the 200 mark but I am not sure it can be classified as a typical yet.
Are you a certified scorer Matte?
I’ve got a couple I’d like to have scored at some point… I think.
That is a really great buck, congrats to the guy that shot it!
I am not certified but most of the ones i have scored that then went to an official scorer were within margin
I saw another one from North Central Kansas that was equally impressive. No bow in the picture so it might have been a crossbow.
Bottom line, Kansas is growing some incredible deer. At least 3 in that 190" net typical range in the last 4 years. No doubt about it, quality deer management has had an impact and will continue to do so. We are going to continue to see more and more big bucks.
Quality deer management, I hope you are kidding. You will see more big bucks because of feeders, crossbows, technology, etc. We have less big bucks now than we ever have, it is just easier to kill them. Back in the 80's and early 90's no one scored deer, or knew how to. And the ones that were scored were much bigger than 190.
Absolutely serious.
The biggest typical buck killed in the 80's isn't even top 10 today. In the 80's and 90's everyone who killed a big buck had it measured, way more than happens today.
I know several guys who killed there biggest buck ever this year.
I didn't say anything about how the state manages our deer herd. Quality deer management is done at the local level and we are killing bigger deer today than ever. Not just in Kansas but all over.
Before you complain about how Kansas is managed, go hunt Nebraska or Oklahoma, 2 buck tags and rifle hunts in the rut. As long as we can keep the rifle hunts out of the peak of he rut, Kansas will continue to be a top end whitetail state. Sorry if you're not having the hunts you used to have. Some of us are enjoying our best hunts ever.
There has been no quality deer management practiced on any land within an hours driving distance from where I live. Zero.
In the late 90’s I saw 3 of the biggest deer I’ve ever seen. 2 of which were just outside of Pittsburg city limits. I would bet a truck load of corn one would have easily beat the state record typical. I heard someone shot it, but was never found. No sure if that’s true.
No clue what happened to the other one… nontypical.
I went well over a decade before I saw a buck over 150’s. The last 5 have been better, but that has little to do with QDM and more to do with a couple extremely lucky 4 year olds making it to 5 and one somehow made it to 6. One.
I don’t know of a mature deer that’s still alive that will be 6 next year.
The huge disparities in the mature population vs overall population proves there is very little management going on.
Look at mule deer statistics and tell me with a straight face that we are managing that species correctly.
JSW- I'd disagree with most of what you said. If your buddies had "their best year" they were using cell cams and bait piles. Prove me wrong. In the old days those weren't used or even needed. My guess is you didn't have 10,000 acres of written or verbal permission, no lease money needed. Everyone I know that got to hunt the 1960's through the 1990's shot a booner with a wood Browning compound or recurve. No bullshit cell cameras, feeders, or Redneck tower blinds. They simply said "I got a good one" and measurements were unheard of in most small town hunting circles unless they submitted it to B&C. There is a Bowsiter that recently commented on here that did just that, and shot several booners and can attest to the decline. The Kansas rifle season has always been during the rut. I've hunted it 28 years and I've seen rutting bucks the first week every single year. Commonly known as the 3rd rut, it brings down some of the biggest, most leary bucks following young does that escaped being bred early when the old does were bred. I've also hunted Oklahoma and Missouri and found them both to have similar size bucks to ours. In fact, I'd take a Cimmaron River corridor hunt over most Kansas hunts any day. All that being said, I hunted 3 bucks this year that were over Boone and Crocket at the expense of over 30 miles on my boots and several thousand miles on my trucks. I ended up with a respectful buck on public because my own properties had young bucks frequenting them despite the fact I haven't shot anything off of them in years.
Just curious JSW, how large are these tracts of land that QDM is practiced?
Thornton, you would be wrong. Few of the best bowhunters in the state hunt over corn piles. I'm talking about the best bowhunters in the state, not the average corn pile hunters. I have some friends who are ethical hard hunting individuals and I stand by my statement. I know a number great hunters who killed thier best bucks ever and corn piles and cell cameras had little to do with it.
Complain all you want. The 2 biggest hunter killed Non-typicals of all time have been killed in the past few years. We are killing bigger deer than ever.
I don’t think it’s an accurate assessment to say that deer hunting is better now than it was based off a handful of guys shooting booners every year… and this is coming from a guy who has his killed more than his fair share. I tried practicing QDM before it was “cool”. Can’t happen unless you are talking about thousands of acres with thousands of acres bordering without pressure… and that takes big money.
You alluded to this. You are talking about local level pockets of land… not at the state level or public land. Some guys are killing bigger deer because they are getting it done on either a large lease or large ownerships with little to no outfitting on the borders.
Kansas top 10 records to date:
4 of the largest typical archery bucks were killed in the 90’s. It’s been 12 years since a buck has broken into the top 10 in the typical category.
Non typical - 4 were in the 80’s 3 in the 90’s 2 in the 2000’s (none in the last 9 years) 1 in 1968
This is per KDWP website (not sure when it was last updated).
World record typical still stands from 1993.
Records are made to be broken, but to say we are knocking it out of the park consistently in recent years because of QDM is a stretch.
To summarize… There’s big deer killed every year. I don’t think QDM is responsible for any of it because the “Q” was thrown out in this state a long time ago.
The acronym should be $DM.
Another interesting fact for top 10 typical WORLD records.
2 were killed before 1920
I doubt you need thousands of acres to consistently grow big deer and “shoot bigger deer now than ever” but I’d guess that you need at least 320 contiguous acres or more if it’s broken up with the wrong neighbors close by or a highway close by or poachers close by or….
That list on the KDWPT site is missing several deer that Has been Entered in Pope and Young the Last 5 years. I have been an P&Y Measurer since 1987 and in late 80s and 90 seems people entered more of various size back then and were happy that it made P&Y. Now days a buddy tells them some fantasy score then they are mad when official score is way lower and they are bummed and no longer proud of the deer, which is sad.
Respect your opinion, input, expertise and admire your accomplishments, Jim. Curious what you mean by this “I know a number great hunters who killed thier best bucks ever and corn piles and cell cameras had little to do with it.”
Little as in? You’ve mentioned using bait to try to hold deer on a property in the past. I’m torn because it seems that hoping for travelers and hunting sign on small parcels hoping to catch a nice deer coming thru is nearly impossible now with so much baiting. I will never bait but I’m contemplating whether I stop trying to hold out for big deer or shoot young bucks or switch to a recurve and hunt does or what I should do. Rarely ever see big deer on my spots consistently and dumping corn isn’t appealing to me.
For one, I'm not complaining. My statements are directly related to 28 years of observations in the few counties I hunt. I own the best whitetail property I've ever had as far as deer numbers visiting it. Not many big ones cross it, because the neighbors off them over a feeder. If you or your buddies are killing big ones frequently, the number one reason is because there are big bucks frequenting their properties. Anybody can camp in a blind for extended periods if they know there's a big one around. As Don Higgins, the guy that's shot 5 bucks over 200" stated "If you can't hunt near where a big buck beds, your chances of killing him go down to 10%". What I saw this rut in Butler County were several very large bucks killed over feeders on small parcels ranging from 40 acres to 160 acres. One guy owns a business here in town and I asked his son how he did it. "We had him on camera all summer at the feeder at night. Dad went out one time as soon as he saw he was out in daylight and killed him, first sit. He was 22" wide"... seems to be the war of corn feeders in my parts.
I come from a place where deer weren't scored back in the day and every year local guys would bring in booners yearly in the 80s and 90s. Those hunters haven't killed anything like that since. Can't tell me hunting is better than it ever has. I have been bow hunting for 37 years. Shot all my biggest deer in the earl 90s. 150 deer were passed on a daily basis. I havent seen a 150 deer for 5 years. Hunting the same land with the same hunting neighbors other than the outfitter down the road. QDMA only works when everybody practices it or you have 5,000 plus acres all to yourself.
Got some better numbers for you from the P&Y database Ray.
Three of the top 10 archery bucks from Kansas were killed in the last three years. One each ‘19, ‘20 and ‘21.
Three of the top 10 typicals in Kansas were taken in the last 8 years. (Possibly more from Jim’s statement).
33% of the 200”+ bucks in Kansas have been taken in the last decade.
Nationally, 20 of the 50 largest bucks ever taken were in the last decade.
Just because Jim’s sentiments don’t correlate on everyone’s properties doesn’t mean he’s wrong. There’s no doubt that larger and larger properties are being tied up by fewer and fewer individuals. It stands to reason those properties will grow older and bigger deer. That’s playing out. If you aren’t one of those individuals, or at least border one or two of them, then your experience is how the rest of you describe it.
What’s even more impressive about those recent Kansas P&Y figures is that’s happening with the addition of crossbows and more evil NR/outfitter influence than ever.
Personally, I’ve seen or known about more giant whitetails in the last 3-4 years than I ever did in my first 20 years of bowhunting.
KB,
I wondered if the KDWP page was correct, which is why I mentioned that I wasn’t sure if it had been updated. Doesn’t surprise me that it’s not and now regret using those numbers, I hate giving false information. Never had much luck with the P&Y database for some reason. I believe my numbers for the top 10 typicals of all time are correct… at least it was pulled from a recent article.
And just because Jim’s sentiments correlate on a few properties doesn’t mean he is right either. If he’s shooting giants on land that is properly implementing QDM, he better cherish that honey hole and I’m betting it’s a heckuva honey hole. Is it private land, a lease, an outfitter? How many acres? I’d like to see aerials.
It takes more than just passing on 3 and 4 year olds on land for it to be called QDM. I’ve killed 2 of my largest bucks in the last 3 years and QDM is not being practiced anywhere near me. The whitetail population is a mess in my area. Absolute mess across multiple counties. Age structure is jacked up.
In my opinion, ANTLER SCORES SHOULD NOT be aligned with QDM.
I look at things pretty objectively. I’ve got no crystal ball, but I do not like what I anticipate the future holds. I don’t think we’ve gotten anywhere near to the bottom of this rabbit hole.
Cherney, my family owns 340 acres of contiguous land borders another 320+acres that isn’t hunted regularly. I tried practicing QDM for nearly 20 on that particular property. Killed two bucks 5 years old or older and one gross B&C off of it in 30 years… after I gave up on the practice. The reason I had little luck… people across the road pulling them off and shooting them when they weren’t fully mature. In those 20 years only a handful of bucks ever made it to 5. No one shoots does.
I own another 240 acres that borders another 550+ that we own and that area is a dumpster fire. That’s correct… nearly 800 acres. Used to be AWESOME, but outfitters on the lines destroyed it. Spent 12 years of my life working 2 jobs putting it together. It got so bad we lease it all out now and in the last 5 years have begun to strongly consider selling it. No one leasing the land has shot a gross B&C buck since we’ve leased it.
These guys consistently shooting giants off land aren’t doing it on 320 acres.They either have pockets of land spread out or they have a very large tract or two. I guess it also depends on what your definition of a giant is. My definition is likely much different than everyone else’s.
Man I must have been bored at 3am, but in summary…
Are deer really getting bigger? Not sure. Are more big deer being killed? Seems like it, but if so, QDM has little to nothing to do with it from what I’ve seen.
I can’t speak to the QDM aspect. But if you look at the folks who have essentially total control over a local herd (Drury’s, Lakosky’s, Whitetail Properties guys in SCK, etc.) no one batts an eye when they regularly kill huge deer. Obviously that’s not the norm, but I think what is becoming the norm is the son, grandson, hired man having total control as far as access on family farms, which are by default larger than ever, and even if they allow a buddy or two on here or there many aren’t taking anywhere near the number of bucks those properties likely used to have harvested. If you have an outfitter or two on the borders, like many, that offsets the localized harvest of course, but there’s still areas that don’t. I sort of focus my limited time on three family farms anymore. Two high school/college buddies, one in the Flint Hills and one in SWK, and my mother’s family ground in NCK. All three are currently in the scenario I suggested. A young guy likes to hunt and has the run of the whole place for himself and maybe let’s on a brother, cousin or couple friends. Two struggle a little with neighboring WIHA’s and one a serious corn piling neighbor, but it’s enough acres and enough deer there have been some incredible bucks lately. All of them had a 200”+ buck in the neighborhood this year. One of them it’s almost become the norm to have a 200” around and a number of other incredible mature deer. Hell, Ft Riley even grew a 220” this year despite all the access it allows. So in my mind there’s no doubt they’re still out there. And maybe even more as Jim suggested. Ray, even you just told us you’ve killed two of your biggest bucks recently all while leasing at least some of your ground out to other fellows. If that’s the case it can’t be quite as bad as you might like to proclaim?
And for the record, there’s no such thing as a “gross Booner”. Sorry, just a pet peave. :)
The few years I’ve been there and talking to people I definitely think the state as a whole has really dropped. I know a guy that hunts my area a lot longer than I have and he said it was unbelievable how good it used to be back in the day.
Not saying Jim is wrong cause there is pockets in Kansas that might be just as good or maybe better if you’re just going off horn size. I think the reason for that is there might be more people now willing to let a 170 or 180 walk if the age is not there. So if you got individuals hunting a pretty good size area hunting with strictly age on their mind then yes you got a recipe to grow them. Kansas definitely has the genetics and whatever is in the ground to do it.
Say if there is 10 pockets like that in Kansas which there could be more…just throwing a number out there. Out of those if people are letting a lot of deer get to 5 and older there’s a decent shot they can grow horns. Out of those pockets it could skew the picture of Kansas as a whole though. Yeah there might be bigger deer growing now than ever in those few pockets but as a whole Kansas is sliding down the drain. Some changes need to be made.
If one big buck is killed tomorrow, everyone will know about it because of social media. The person who shot it will post it on every forum on the web. Ray, when our good buddy shot one that went well over 248 inches very few knew about. I bet you JSW knows nothing of it or who shot it. And how many others did our buddy shoot that were giants? Just go look in his shop. Any quality bowhunter who hunted in the 80's and still hunts today, saw several giants every year back then. Today you are lucky to see one a year. But trail cams, internet, etc just makes the one or 2 more visible. They are scouted year round and fed into pets. Just not the same. This idiot is just stirring the pot. Put a Bear Alaskan in his hand with a flipper rest, 2216 arrow, shooting glove, zwickey broadhead, and no technology and see how many big ones he shoots.
Be Still is on the right track. No one is arguing the state is trending up as a whole, just that there’s enough bubba channel biologists “managing” enough big properties that the prospects for really big deer in certain areas are still very good or even great. That’s hard for some to comprehend though.
Jeff, your sky has been falling for so long you haven’t gone outside long enough to find a big deer. Just sitting around telling everyone how shitty it is. You told us for years you were done deer hunting, yet are still here spouting off nonsense. Go to a commission meeting and change something. Or buy some property and enhance the habitat. Speaking of, I bird hunted north central this year for three days. Three of us hitting a mix of private and WIHA. We kicked up at least one covey on every single parcel, probably 16 places, give or take, in four counties. I’m sure it was nothing like the 80’s, but it was damn fun!
Jeff I think this Gentleman uses pretty simple stuff in his hunting.
You must not have looked at his pics clip?
2 of the 3 areas you're speaking of they just recently started playing the corn game tho KB? Imagine the big deers have always been around there.
As far as buying land, why would I pay $3500 plus per acres to hunt? Unless you got money to burn, that would be about the most stupid investment you could make.
Eh. Old hired hand probably would’ve killed the one on a corn pile last year as a 160 if he was still hunting there. Got killed on WIHA this year by a regiment of Okie/Texans pushing out every parcel in a few counties, so I don’t think corn had much to do with his routines. Other spot as you know usually summers some giants and then they disappear. That one came out of nowhere and may have gone back without some incentive, but that’s hard to say as well.
guess what I'm saying is that there's always been big deer around both places
Dude,
I’m not saying it’s good or bad… I’m not that kind of guy. Never been a negative Nancy… well, unless it’s outfitters. I would say everything is sideways in my area from the late 90’s as far as overall quality of mature bucks. The biggest deer I’ve ever seen were in the 90’s. 2 of them were in 1999. That’s a fact. Bigger than any I’ve seen or killed since.
What I’m saying is it’s different and personally I don’t like where this is headed. You basically just summed up the problem. Large pockets of land are controlled by groups or one person… no QDM is going on. Zero, and less access for the regular Joe. Either one of them would have been killed at 4 years old if they’d given someone the chance, but I killed 2 of the largest bucks I ever have because the bucks had the genetics and flew under everyone’s radar. Not because things are better now than they were 20 years ago. There hasn’t been another “net booner”, or one that would gross over 170”, (better?) killed on any of that land in several years… I can think of only a couple that would break 160” in nearly 2 decades. Thousands of acres.
To me it seems things cycle. Late 90’s I saw multiple 180”-200” deer. Didn’t see one anywhere close to that for over 20 years. No where close… saw one in the low 170’s, that’s a long ways from 190”-200”. I shot 2 in the last 3 and now I can determine that it must be better now than 1982 when I was 5? Give me a break. I know guys with multiple sheds from the 80’s that would make your draw drop. I’ve yet to find one that would gross over 80” and I’ve been searching for sheds since the late 90’s over several sections of land and we farm over 4,000 acres and have another 1,500 of pasture.
Jeff, I was just in his shop just the other day and we spoke about how many of the big ones he killed in the 80’s and 90’s. No corn, no cams.
Listen, if you’re using corn, cell-cams, have a huge lease or parcel and are happy then do what makes you happy. Recurve over a corn pile? Go for it. Xbow over a feeder? Go for it. But I’d strongly suggest guys be careful stating QDM is the reason for your success. It comes down to having access to great land where others have limited access.
Outside of a few outliers, the pursuit of a truly wild animal that has never been on camera or ate from a feeder is likely over.
I know a guy who is dead nuts with a recurve… hunts and kills multiple deer over corn. Looks the part. Great guy, but couldn’t tell you the difference between an oak and a walnut tree. Woodsmanship is dying and getting quality hero pics are more important.
KB, I think I agree with you more than I disagree. If I live long enough, I’m going to kill more big deer. I just don’t think it’s because things are better than they used to be.
Stay warm everyone and think about your outside pets/livestock the next few days.
Yes and no. One used to allow a lot more hunters and thus more bucks killed before they could get that big. The other used to be outfitted along with the neighbor’s. Outfitter pulled out, bucks taken within a few miles has gone down drastically I’m sure, and there’s obviously old deer around now. Won’t argue that corn dictates their movement patterns, but I don’t think it’s why they exist.
Jeff, I think you better know more about how a man hunts and his equipment and when he started bowhunting, He has no cell cameras does not hunt corn or have corn piles. I don't care for your idiot comment which he is not by any stretch. Your comment sure makes you look like one. Not try to start a fight but get a clue who you are dishing!
First of JSW is a very accomplished, well-rounded hunter. If you've been on this forum for an extended period of time, you'll realize this fact.
No one has brought up the fact that with the huge influx of hunters (liberal any season tags for residents, liberal NR tag numbers, and crossbows), you will have more deer being killed. With more deer being killed, some of these will be monster bucks.
On the two properties I hunt that are 480 and 200 acres, I usually have something decent to pursue every year. This year was not the case. I picked a great year to hunt 3rd Season OTC elk over chasing rutting whitetails. I haven't killed a whitetail since 2019 due to my standards and am more focused on Western hunting. Between hunting Region G in WY this year, 3rd season OTC in CO, and late season NM for elk and mule deer in a couple of days, my interest in whitetails continues to wane, unfortunately.
I'd love to have a reason to get back after the whitetails again but the juice hasn't been worth the squeeze. Unfortunately, cameras confirm a lot of this nowadays--especially when you've been hunting properties for 20+ years and know how the deer move.
DGW, I didn't comment on how he hunts. Whether it is him or anyone else, put 1970's technology in his hands or anyone else's hand and see how many big bucks are shot compared to today. Obviously, there are going to be more and bigger bucks shot today vs 1980's, just look at the equipment. Doesn't mean the state of KS is doing a terrific job or herd management. If that was the case, mule deer would be thriving. The idiot comment is directed toward his comment of deer management, not the way he hunts. To come on here and make a comment about KS having quality deer management is an insult (mule deer are disappearing at an alarming rate), that he knew would stir the pot of those who have hunted here for over 40 years.
Jeff , He has hunted here for forty years , Was born and raised Kansan! You said his hands , I would think recurve no sights cedar arrows and a Magnus or Razor head , would compare to the equipment of 70's. I sure don't think he is stirring the pot. The state management of our deer sucks we all know it, I would vote to do away with corn Cell camera, crossbows except for qualified needs, and lower number of NRtags .
Daniel, lifetime license? He stirred the pot, just look at the responses since he made his comment. Nice you agree on management sucking, that was the point of my post. Maybe I didn't word it correct. I too would do away with camera's, crossbows, and all NR tags for that matter. KB I went to several meetings back in 1994. Wrote a lot of letters, etc. Why would anyone bother going to a meeting now? Ray was all over the crossbow thing, it didn't do a bit of good.
You gotta love social media.
I have no desire to get in a pissing match with any of you but I will try one more time to clarify my statements.
No one that I hunt with hunts corn piles. We do use feeders to keep more deer on the property but we don't hunt feeders. Your chances of killing a booner on a feeder is slim. I know a few guys who use cell cameras in hard to get areas. Have they helped in the killing of a really big deer? Maybe, maybe not, but they weren't used any differently than a conventional camera other than they can leave an area undisturbed for a longer period than if you had to go in and pull the disc now and then. Have trail cams changed things? Absolutely. I don't question that for a minute. I've gottem pictures of bucks that I had no idea were even around. Have corn piles made it easier to kill a P&Y buck? Absolutely. Do I like it? No, I do not. We all have our ethical standards and I would love to see baiting deer outlawed.
When I talked about the top end deer in Kansas, I was only talking about archery kills. KDWP shows 3 over 190 net typical. Mine would be the fourth. Those were taken 2001, 2007, 1994 and 2018. There were 2 taken this year that are supposedly over 190. I don't know how they were taken but that's not the point. The point is, we are killing more really big deer than ever before.
People who don't practice QDM really don't understand it. It's not just food plots, it's not just controling thousands of acres, which seldom exists in Kansas, it's not just shooting fewer bucks and more does. It's the entire process.
In the 80's 80% of bucks killed nation wide were 1 1/2 year olds. Today the majority of bucks killed are over 3 years old. Thats QDM. Hunters are holding out for the best buck they can find and are willing to not fill a tag if they can't make it work. Thats QDM. Hunters are spending countless hours improving their land using all kinds of interesting ideas to create better habitat, which makes more deer, keeps the deer on your land, even small areas and is better for everyone.
You don't need big chunks of land. My best buck was taken off of 80 acres with no improvements. He got big because one neighbor was a trophy hunter, another was clueless and another let no one hunt. That's how bucks get big.
One guy shot his biggest buck on 40 acres that you wouldn't think would hold big deer. A 187" buck was taken there 10 years ago.
There's no doubt KDWP could do a much better job at managing our deer. My comment had nothing to do with KDWP. I'm simply responding to real life experience. The Brewster buck from IL is the largest hunter killed NT ever. The Butcher buck from KS is the second largest. A 211" buck was killed with a crossbow last year. You simply can't ignore the statistics.
I will agree that technology has made it easier to locate and kill big deer. I would almost certainly kill smaller deer some years without trail camera info. Some deer you just don't know are around until you get a trail camera picture. That said, I didn't have any pictures of my #2 and #3 bucks. You hold out for something big and all of the sudden a big one you had no idea existed, walks by. Sometimes cameras help, sometimes not.
For the most part, we are killing bigger deer because we have more experience and more information. Most big bucks are taken by guys with decades of experience and years of working to make what property we do have better. We are also killing bigger deer because there are more mature deer to be shot. I'm not saying there are more deer overall, there isn't, but what bucks are out there are older. Age structure is the most important factor in growing big antlers, no matter what the species.
Complain all you want. I'm just happy that I get to continue to hunt, regardless of the trophy quality. If the biggest buck around was 130" I would target him and be glad to get him. Fortunately, Kansas is still a pretty good state to hunt deer.
Draining your 401k might give the impression of wealth, but it's not a good long term plan. Sincerely hope that's not what KS is doing but it sure feels like it.
The hunting sucks in Kansas and that’s what I always tell people. Loose lips sink ships fellas.(social media) I have made the mistake but, have learned.
Commission meetings are a joke nothing but a marketing tool. So has anything changed for the better after these meetings??
It appears that I am completely misguided.
The deer hunting in Kansas sucks, is only going to get worse and we should all just find somewhere else to hunt.
I appologize for my misleading comments. I don't know what I was thinking.
"I don't know how they were taken but that's not the point. The point is, we are killing more really big deer than ever before." Or do you think that more are just reported now with social media? How many of Bruce's bucks are in the books or in the KDWP record books? Buddy of mine killed a typical 214, not in the books. I believe it was in 1992. Bruce did the mount. Brother in law killed one in the early 90's, it was in the Mathews catalog but not entered into any books. Tons of stories like this. Doesn't mean that hunting is better today or that KS is growing bigger deer. Just that one deer is killed, everyone see's the pic on the web. Not a polaroid at Johns Sport Center. People didn't parade their deer around everywhere in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.
It appears you both know what you're doing, and have an excellent spot to hunt Jim. The biggest buck I've seen on public was up by where you hunt. This picture of the racks drying doesn't do it justice. All were extremely heavy, old bucks, and many were very wide. Photo was at a taxidermist in the central part of the state, and all bucks were shot nearby. Excellent genetics in that area. I went to another taxidermist where I live an hour away, and there were dozens of spindly, 3 year old racks. Out of over 100, I counted maybe 6 that looked like the other taxidermist table.
My 2 cents...hunt later in the season 16th on, I see much better buck any property then. Don't tell nobody.
If you are using feeders on your property to hold deer, you are hunting feeders. All of the land I hunt near or have leased out to a group has feeders on it. I can still hunt on that land. I’m hunting feeder deer and we likely all are. I don’t have a stand within 200 yards of one, can’t even see one from a stand, but I guarantee you it affects movement and how I hunt that movement.
Not saying it’s right or wrong, but it is what it is and I know I don’t like it.
I see a lot of disparity across this state based off the comments/observations I’m reading.
I’m not sold on that it’s any better now than 30 years ago. I know of at least eight 170” plus deer that were killed in the 80’s that were never entered… couple of those well over 180”. None have had a pic on social media. Sounds like a lot are not being entered now either, but I’ve seen pics of most of them.
“I would vote to do away with corn Cell camera, crossbows except for qualified needs, and lower number of NRtags .”
This^^^^… I hunt Oklahoma primarily, and the only thing I’d want different (than what JSW said above) in Oklahoma? Raise the NR tag price 75-100% and limit ALL hunters to one buck. Move the gun season back one week wouldn’t hurt either. We have many of the same issues you guys have, but unlimited tags, and more NR’s I’d bet too.
I know it sounds self-serving and probably is, but let’s face facts, everyone is out for a giant deer unless you’ve just recently started hunting. But, I know guys that are a year or two into hunting and they’re already “looking for a giant”. Another social media issue and escalated advancement of hunters with modern day tools at their disposal… (bows, cell cams, corn, mapping, internet, how to’s). They aren’t enjoying the evolution like I did, guess. But, that could be said for many generations before myself as well.
Y’all stay warm up there!
You can't judge the deer hunting based on records. Most guys I know don't ever register there deer in p & y of booner and crocket. These guys shot them yearly and now they don't. Only ones registering them are flat bills.
Thane it is a different generation now. Back in the day, if someone said they shot a 180, one would of thought it had 180 points not inches. No one counted inches back then. Even after the 248 was shot, we didn't really count inches. Scoring gained fame with trail cam pics on the internet. Everyone had to post pics of their new potential record typical. And the Outfitters want you to believe there are more big ones shot today to line their pockets. Totally different time and no way can one say that there are more bigger deer shot today. . Just a blanket statement. Chief has always been the authority and grandfather of wisdom on this site. When he weighs in and says more bigger deer are shot today, I will change my stance.
if ya can't beat em, join em
Jeff i have been hunting since the 80s. Grew up with a bow in my hand. The local hardware store always held a big buck contest. Took Polaroids of the deer and put them on a bulletin board. Whish I could find those pictures. I myself have never officially scored my deer for P&Y but I have over 20 that make it. All I'm saying is lots of big deer were taken years ago and guys could of cared less to see their name in a book. Those guys are old grey beards like me now.
Thane I agree 100%. Wish I would not have shoulder mounted all these deer I have. One of the biggest waste of money ever. I have an article somewhere from the Columbus Daily Advocate of a fellow from Hallowell that shot a giant. Big ole 16 point deer if I remember. It was a giant. Never entered into the books. Must have been about 1980 or so. I can see it in my mind and I am sure it would have been a top 10 deer. I cut that picture and article out of the paper back then, I have no idea where it is but if I can find it I will post the pic.
What’s the difference in a big buck contest/newspaper article and entering an animal or posting it on a message board? Only thing I can tell is one was the norm in the “good ol’ days” and these ain’t them. At least when you enter an animal you’re supporting a bowhunting organization. Seems like contests and bulletin boards are exactly what you guys despise. Weird logic in the world of us hunters.
Further, how many of those guys that don’t enter animals still talk in inches when conversing about bucks? Lots of that going on. Goes back to what Dan said about guys being ashamed of the final tally. Can’t, in good faith, spout off their guesstimate to their buddies anymore.
Chief is the guy I was referring to. Nothing but respect for him and his methods which I use often to this day. Difference is, he killed way more big ones from the ground than I ever have. Back to the December comment, I too have enjoyed the late season bowhunts I had the last few years. Another thing I've noticed KB, is guys are scoring bucks incorrectly. They must be adding the spread of tip tip beams on top of widest inside spread. My understanding is you get one width measurement, not two. I've seen several on this site bragging to be far lager than they appear to be.
Here's what I deal with. Neighbor whacked a young buck with great genes last day of rifle after he passed multiple, big old 8 pointers over his corn feeder. I heard the shot and immediately texted him to see if it was the big nontypical.
Chief was a great member to this site. Lots of knowledge and was straight to the point.
So why isn't the list on the KDWP updated? Bruce never entered his deer.
There’s no comparison in how quickly information spreads today compared to 30 years ago.
Interesting to see the different view points and I’d say 99.99% of the guys on here are good men.
Things are different than 30 years ago. If you didn’t hunt then you wouldn’t know. Some guys have adapted to today’s “techniques”, some prefer the way it used to be. I prefer the way it used to be, but I’ve slowly adapted. Can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em, right Chern?
Sounds like JSW is all in with feeders and technology… and it’s working for him. If that’s what he enjoys, so be it.
Others have no desire to use those techniques because they believe it takes away from the heritage, so be it.
I tend to agree more with the latter, but like I said I’m slowly changing.
If you were born in the last 30-40 years you likely grew up completely different than people born 50 or 60 years ago. If you started hunting in the last 10 you wouldn’t know any different.
No we shouldn’t all hold hands and agree on everything. Most all of the regs are out of our hands.
Good news… There will always be giants in Kansas. Although, I do believe it could be way better, if managed correctly. My biggest fear is the loss of the hunt.
Years back there was a Bev that handled the list there in Pratt and was great to work with but I'm old might of been 20 years ago, she would send me state forms , and it seemed she would update from P&y list not sure . My guess now is the measurer need to fill out a state form for the hunter to send to state. signed by him and Official measurer.
I have not been very good about getting the hunters that I have scored deer for to do this so they are on the state list. I had thought if in P&Y they would get included. We pulled up the list this fall and seen some missing.
I’ve heard the phrase mentioned “made Pope and Young”. What does that mean or does it have to score so high to get there?
It is not a pope and young animal unless it measured by official measurer and sent in and entered with Pope and young. And is above min score and accepted by the record director.
Riddle me this one. The state pronghorn top 10 has bucks listed that aren’t in P&Y. Were those scored by an official measurer and the hunter only cared to send the state the paperwork and save his P&Y fee?
Hmm, Good one , I do know there use to be some on a list that could only score for state list but were not certified by P&Y or B&C. Not sure of their training or qualifications or how that came to be. I hope all the top 10 were measured by a P&Y or B&C official .
Kaleb, maybe they were shot with crossbow, the state enters crossbow kills in the archery list.
Just looked it up and it said the minimum score was 125. Is that right? That seems awfully low or small. Most 3 yr olds and and quite a bit of 2 yr olds would be hitting that mark.
That’s correct 125” net and harvested with a bow
I got this picture in 2018. I thought he would score in the 190s. I spent quite a bit of time hunting this property, but never laid eyes on him. Another bow hunter and I were visiting a couple of weeks ago, and I showed him this picture. He showed me a picture of a buck taken by a hunter from Texas. It was taken in 2019 on an adjoining property. He really knew very little about it. He was told it scored over 200. It appeared to be the same deer. I don't know if it was entered in P&Y.
Personally I never cared for net cause that’s taking away what the deer grew but I understand people put up standards so it’s all good.
As a kid I grew up a gun hunter so I guess what people is calling the booner part which I think is 170 I assume is for a gun then. So Ray for bow do they count compound and crossbows for the 125?
Lee that was a very good looking deer.
My usual come-back for the guys that don't care for a net score is (why count the inside spread, nothing was grown there). P&Y does not knowingly except crossbow taken animals, period. As for the states listing, it could include anything taken during the archery season and since crossbows are legal archery weapons, I'm sure there are several in there. Dan, I also have a hard time getting people to enter their animals
Marvin ,use to be no one talked about a score other than P&Y, never heard gross score talked about till the tv shows hit , never heard a deer hunter say nets is for fishing. Then they came up with the magical score they brag about and they like that better than the true score and have all kinds of excuses why they don't enter , but they sure like bragging about a score that is not true. I don't get if they are not interested in the book or Entering it why are they measuring it at all if it means nothing. I respect that some one may not want to help support a good bowhunting organization or even support the state organization but both care about bowhunting and could always use bowhunters support.
Ha Marvin I never thought about that but yeah you’re right…there’s nothing but air there. I could be wrong but isn’t the spread counted on a typical as well.
Daniel as for me I’m not perfect and I sure the hell don’t care if the deer I shoot is. Typical to me starts leaning towards bragging and for the books and that sounds gross to me. That’s definitely not what I sit in the woods for. I like a deer to get age on him before I try and take him and if he has a little drop tine coming off that main frame typical….well to me that’s a little magical. But then again I don’t hunt for the books.
I’m sure the official scorers here would have a much better feel for this, but since be still asked, I’d say it would take a damn impressive 2.5 year old to net 125”. Most in that range are going to be 3.5 year old 10’s with solid genetics or smaller caliber 4.5 year olds. If we’re talking Kansas bucks that is.
I don’t like net scores either, but you’ll offend some on here if you talk gross score only. Spread doesn’t really matter to me, but it’s cool to know. If I had to choose I’d pick Buckmasters scoring system. They score growth only and then have a composite score that shows what the width is. Unfortunately P&Y is the benchmark by which everyone judges a deer.
Yes 170” is the benchmark for B&C… again net score, if you’re into that kind of thing.
I will never join either organization.
Compounds count for P&Y… not sure if there is a “let-off” restriction still, used to be. No on xbows.
Two dogs, I wouldn’t be surprised if that deer was pushing or passed 200” in 2018 as well. Stud.
Volume method of scoring seems like it would make the most sense. I usually score deer myself and think it’s fun to do. Not that I think it matters. Wouldn’t have one officially scored unless it had a chance to make the state book. However the whole concept is kind of funny to me… always seemed that the antler size has no bearing on how smart a deer is or how hard it is to kill. Guess that’s why I don’t like cell cams or corn because I’d rather feel like I earned one no matter how big it is. Baffles me that so many dudes shell out huge cash to shoot baited deer or pay to shoot pen raised upland birds but I imagine their circumstances and priorities are just different. Different strokes for different folks. Sounded like a baiting ban had a real shot of happening here not too long ago but haven’t seen or heard much on it lately.
Kaleb since we’re talking net yes it might be a stretch on some 2yr olds but 3yr olds…come on man. Maybe I’m under estimating the age on deer up there by one age but I really don’t think so. I’ve seen many pretty typical looking deer up there at age 3 that would gross in the 50s. I mean you would have to take take off more than 25 inches.
Lol or hold on….is the spread counted on a net typical? If not then I’m looking like a fool.
And Ray I don’t get that as far as offending some people up there. I look at bowhunters up in Kansas as down to earth people and hunt for the love of it instead of worrying about taking inches off of the deer.
Patrick don’t give up hope on the baiting ban. I tried to call the KDWD the other day to ask about it and to offer any funds or help in any way. I didn’t reach the person I needed to to talk too and they never called back. I need to call again. I’m not giving up hope…it’s going to happen.
And yes a 125” net 2 year old would be a baby giant
Had a flatbill hunter asked if we could score his deer. Rumor was he was telling folks it was a 200" deer. He brought it by and my friend who is an official state scorer scored it at 172 and change gross and upper 150s net. It was a nice deer, but nowhere near what he was telling people. Weeks later people where still saying it was scored by my friend and it was 200". My point is people see what they want to see and tell what they want to tell.
What does a score matter anyways unless you are trying to put it in the books. Most guys nowadays classify bucks by score and age. I just know one thing once you start sending teeth in to be aged lots of people would be shocked at some deers age. It is really really hard to age a deer off the hoof. Especially if you're from states where the body sizes aren't that impressive. It's just like when I hunted Canada the bodies on those deer were huge. Hell I thought they were all 5.5 year Olds lol. So if I came from South Carolina and hunted in Kansas I would think a 2 year old was mature based on body size. But I totally agree most guys over score there deer by 20 inches. I guess unless you have it officially scored and post the score sheet with it maybe don't even say it scores anything. Once you do that the conversation would be over.
Yep, spread is counted in the net score.
Yes, I’ve seen a lot of 2 year olds over the years that would net score 125”. 3 year old, the majority of them will hit 125”.
Scoring isn’t rocket science, but it sure seems a lot of people don’t know how to do it correctly.
Jason I think your point on age is right on with people out of state with body size and horns for that matter. They don’t understand some 3yr olds can have some pretty big bodies and horns. Really deep down I don’t why I score other than I know it’s just for myself. A long time ago I started doing it and found it interesting. Started realizing the wider deer usually had shorter tines and the narrower deer the opposite. Found it neat how the scoring system was pretty good and fair way to see how much bone was grown. Sometimes too the more mass the shorter the tines…just seemed if the deer put something in one area he lacked in another. Pretty cool when you come across a few that has it all.
Whether you care how about horns or not though I think people especially in areas where deer numbers are getting thin need to start thinking about age. It’s just good healthy management for the deer herd I think just to take the older ones out.
Patrick here is the deer I made a huge mistake on last year and really gave some thought about not hunting up there this year to ease my pain. This deer was definitely no older than 3 and after looking at the teeth some say it might have been a 2 yr old. Way too many deer like this being shot up there and sometimes on purpose in my opinion.
I wonder what percentage of book animals actually get scored (officially) and entered. I suspect it’s a very low number. I know a person (not me) that has several over 190” and one over over 200” non typical. None have been officially scored but they have been scored by a guy who understands the scoring technique. And none are entered and never will be entered. And he has a few 150-180” , same situation.
Dan, I agree with you that if a person is going to quote a P&Y score they should use the real score, which is net. A lot of hunters seem to use the gross score as it makes them feel like they shot a bigger deer. As far as hunters not scoring deer in the 1980s, some of us did. I know I entered 3 in P&Y in that decade. A lot of hunters quote a score that may not even be close to an actual score. In 1980s and 90s the late Jerry Keller and I unofficially scored a few for people and they were usually thinking the deer would score a lot higher. We always told them that we may not be right. The only way to know the actual score was to have it officially measured. I will say that when we had our own deer officially scored, we had usually come pretty close with our measurements. It seems that stories of possible state record pop up most years. If they are officially measured they suddenly shrink. One Arrow I know you know a big when you see it. If you saw this one and believe it has a chance I will take your word for it. Do you know if it will be officially measured so it can become the State Record if big enough?
The thing about not officially scoring, and acting like it’s some badge of honor such as Jeff does, is that you sound like you’re full of shit while still spouting off numbers. When he talks about this 248 he’s obsessed with I envision a 235-240” gross/220-225” net type of deer. A beauty I’m sure, but it’s apples to oranges when talking good ol boy gross scores and official P&Y/B&C. When he mentions a 214” typical I know he’s full of shit! :)
That’s certainly a good looking deer IMO and if harvested w/o corn something you should be proud of. If he was 3 then I could see where you might be disappointed that you didn’t get a chance to see him maybe turn into a 200” typical but it’s weird he may not have put on another 30 inches in his life. And he may have gotten run over or shot by a rifle hunter or gotten sick or… don’t beat yourself up
KB you really have no clue about that buck. That buck was on the cover of the Bass Pro catalog and one of the magazines. If you visit BPS you will see it. Ray see's that buck all the time. He's got many other big ones, that were officially scored.
I don’t doubt they’re beauties Jeff. Even said as much. But I don’t take you seriously for a minute when you throw out a 248 and a 214, then beat your chest about how they were never entered/scored. How the hell am I supposed to know that was the actual number?
Be Still, if that was a 2.5 year old, you just killed the next future 214” typical Jeff would’ve been talking about.
It's already been answered, but, yes, INSIDE spread is included in the final score for typical and non-typical antlered animals. Greatest is not included and I've seen several folks make that mistake.
This past season I have seen a lot of animals, (bow & rifle kills) going to taxidermists. Only a couple over 150"s. Most were between 125 / 135 and the hunters thought they were the greatest deer in the woods.
Supposedly one area outfitter doesn't let any of his clients shoot anything under 140", but none of us ever see the racks. He used to come in and spout that a deer laying on the floor is 150 something, but I, (being the ass I am) have already measured it and tell him it has to make 140 before it gets to his 150 whatever
Someone mentioned buckmasters system, do any of you actually use it, or have racks registered with them? It seems to be a regional thing only in the southeast.
If anyone actually wants to get their animal officially measured, give me a holler, I'm certified by P&Y and B&C.
KB - The 248” is legit. It’s in Scheels also in KC.
Two dogs… I wish I knew the answer to whether it will be officially scored. If someone who knew what they were doing and scored it correctly then it’s got to be in the the top 3 from the pictures I’ve seen. Just don’t see many deductions from the 216” gross score, but it could have more from the limited photos I’ve seen. It also hasn’t completed the required drying period.
Again, I’ve never laid my hands on it personally and I hate judging from photos. Probably shouldn’t have said anything, but it makes a guys mouth drop to see a basic 10 point frame break 200”. Looking back through this thread and the arguments it’s caused, I’m not very proud of myself for saying it might be a state record.
There have been so many bucks I’ve misjudge (Honestly, I usually under guess) over the years I should just keep it to myself. It may never be heard of again if they don’t score it officially or if it’s way smaller than I’m thinking.
Is it 60 days for drying? Can’t remember. I’ll do some more digging in about a month or two. I know a couple guys that can ask the family.
Interesting discussion gentlemen. My “pee brain” opinions and thoughts on a variety of these topics that have been brought up:
1. The state needs to ban any and all forms of baiting and I will support any grass roots efforts to do so…even with my wallet (same as Be Still). Will be a benefit to the health of the overall herd. Yes, big box stores, mom and pop hardware stores, co-ops and local economies selling this crap will see a loss. The state may lose a few thousand non-res. hunters to other states as a result….but that wouldn’t be so bad would it?
2. P&Y needs to increase the 125” min. qualifying score. I wonder how many bowhunters wanting to claim their first or just another P&Y buck (whether they officially score and enter it or not) shoot what “they” think is a 125” deer that really turns out to be a 110”-120”. Do that a few thousand times in each hunting season over a bunch of years (especially heavily hunted areas) and no doubt that puts a hurting on recruitment of mature deer populations.
3. I always chuckle when people post a pick of a buck in velvet and claim a score. More times than not they are scoring from what they are seeing in velvet pic. which obviously has way more mass and a little more length than what you get once all that velvet is stripped off. I am no expert but would guess that when final score is realized it is approx. 5%-10% less than what it was while in velvet….maybe the scorers on here can dispute or correct. So, fire away.
4. If the state is going to just keep increasing the # of non-res. deer permits over the coming years, I would like to see the cost increase $200/tag and that additional $200 go to fund conservation efforts to help offset Mule Deer and Pronghorn decline.
5. This may be extreme and will certainly understand if some of ya’ll disagree but I would also be in favor of a “temporary” 5-10 yr. antler restriction of 10pt. minimum. Yes….10pt. minimum! Those that are “meat hunters” that want to claim that an antler restriction would be unfair to them….I say shoot the allowed limit of does for meat needed. There I said it…now hack away at me!
6. There is no argument that “most” people in KS hunting whitetail deer do it on smaller acreages or a collection of smaller acreages and can certainly be effected by neighbors…whether the neighbors are baiting, outfitting and or systematically killing younger deer, etc. However, if increased quantity of big/mature whitetail deer is your goal…the only “real” thing you can attempt to do at a grass roots level (to make your situation better) is to try to form some sort of co-op with neighboring landowners/hunters to try to come to an “agreed” (not contractual) arrangement on atleast the quantity and quality of deer that each property harvests in a given year. Sure maybe a few deer killed don’t make the agreed mark/score by either honest mistake or just flat out mis-judged….and there should be some grace and leniency for that but the overall goal is still paramount by all participating landowners/hunters. Probably not going to change hunting styles of each but if everyone can atleast agree on harvesting some does and the age class/quality of the (1) buck each hunter gets to take, I bet that atleast after 5 yrs. there would be a noticeable difference in number quality bucks roaming around and seen! I understand with an ever changing world where it’s a given that “nothing ever stays the same” this co-op thing could be a tall task….especially if the neighboring Landowner is leasing to different groups each year but the effort to establish it and or keep it going even with ebb and flow of new neighboring hunters still has value to your localized herd.
Let’s face it…it’s clear the state legislators don’t care about the health of the statewide deer herd…just look at the current state of the mule deer population. If it’s gonna change for the better it’s gonna take us getting involved at a grass roots level.
Fair enough. Yes, 60 days.
Crested I’m with you on everything especially getting and working at the grass roots level. The only thing I disagree with is the 10 pt restriction. The reason for that is there is a lot of 2 and 3 yr olds with that or more points.
Patrick you don’t get how I feel. No there wasn’t corn involved…I was walking around and rattling from the ground that day. First glance was through trees and just saw his right side of the horns which looked good. Then he got back in the draw and started making so much noise that it got my nerves going. Never had a good look at his body until right before the shot and he was facing me. When he popped out with his hair bristled and the long brows I just didn’t think about age….huge mistake. I don’t go by that saying…something could have happened to him. Deer always have a chance if you let them go….zero if you don’t.
KB this hurts to show again but here’s a pic of how young he was. Showed different pics of his body last year cause those made him appear to look a little older but at the time I was too ashamed. Here’s his teeth too and from what they tell me he sure looks 2 by the teeth. I knew you grew up in Kansas and you know your stuff…how old do you think he is?
Point restriction would gain what? I don’t think I saw a single buck with 10 points this season while hunting. All were 8-9 pointers. I chose to pass several but you would be comfortable telling someone they literally couldn’t shoot a buck that might be a 160” 8 pointer?
Bestill I may not quite understand how you feel. I’ve gotten worked up and shot deer I thought were a lot bigger than they ended up being, but I’m just saying you’ve been upset about this one deer for a while. I think you’ve learned from it and should forgive yourself. God will make more. He already has.
I’m no tooth expert, but that looks like enough wear to me to qualify as 3.5. I probably put too much stock in antler characteristics when aging but when you see solid mass, bladed brows, a little character and beams that finish like his he’s a 3.5 year old deer all day.
Be Still: good job, glad you had a good time. Who gives a rats about score or age.
Be Still…that buck you killed last year is indeed a 2.5 yr old. Live and learn and go on!
That's right "mitch's"...I found this video of Dave in his younger days...
Crested the idea of getting small acreage landowners to form a coop is a great idea… as long as there isn’t an outfitter nearby and you can trust your neighbors. That can be extremely difficult the more people you get involved. I tossed a similar idea around in my head for a few years, but several guys seem very satisfied shooting 3 and 4 year olds (I don’t blame them at all… they are proud of them, so who am I to judge). I also had to convince a large landowner that I was trying to develop a program for youth with life-threatening diseases. Didn’t work. When the outfitter stepped in, it was all over.
I could care less about the P&Y score. Be still… he got your heart pumping and gave you a great memory. That’s all that really matters. Several years ago I shot a 140” 10 point on the ground with my wife videoing in a lawn chair…. He was right in our face. My sons hunt last year was a huge adrenaline rush, that buck probably scores 140” as a 3 year old and tons of character. He had the “stuff”.
I will never regret shooting either one of those deer and, outside of my largest deer (which is an incredible story and hunt… if anyone wants to swing by I’ll gladly and proudly share it), I can’t remember other hunts I enjoyed more than those 2 with my wife and son.
I agree with KB, that’s a 3 year old.
Why don't you just show us this giant buck and share the story. You've been hinting about it for quite a while. I figure if it's good enough to mention, then we'd sure like to see it.
Jason, like I said stop by and I’ll be glad to show you and share the story.
Sorry, not into sharing harvest photos online… especially bowsite. Not my thing. I’ve seen the ugly side of people sharing photos online. I believe I have discussed this in length before. Just look at all the bots and spam that shows up on this site.
To be honest, I don’t really know anyone on here. I’d actually prefer texting the pics over putting on the inter web and I’ve shared with a couple people on here.
I do wish I had the skill Kyle has for videoing hunts. Lord knows Ive tried, but I fall apart when I see one coming in.
Fellas….I’m telling ya buck pictured above ain’t a 3 or even 3.5 yr. old. You’re letting antler size fool ya. The pic of those teeth prove it to be 2.5 yrs old. That buck could have certainly been something special no doubt.
Nobody knows whether it’s 2 or 3. If it’s 2 it was likely headed for world record status. Most likely it was 3 and was grass fed. Nobody will ever know and it’s dead
This ain’t good fellas…let’s talk about something else.
This video made me feel better. Dave was tough and went hard when he was younger.
I’ll say this about the teeth discussion and then leave this alone...
This is EXACTLY why I don’t post kill photos online.
Bring the jawbone and skull over sometime BeStill, I’m sure we can figure its age out.
What's so bad about what's transpired so far, Ray? No name calling on this topic yet. No arguing. Just friendly discussion.
Pic of “Be Stills” jawbone:
fawn = less than 6 teeth
1.5+ yrs. old = 6 teeth
Pic of “Be Stills” jawbone:
fawn = less than 6 teeth
1.5+ yrs. old = 6 teeth
Ray I was just joking but yeah it still hurts cause I take not shooting young deer very seriously. I posted this pic though so other people might learn from my mistake. Through my shame if it helps Kansas in anyway then it’s worth it.
Lol but Ray I might not want to really know what his age is to tell you the truth. I mean 3 is bad enough and but 2…that’s a hard pill to swallow.
this deer was in the back of a truck in Kansas .... 2013 I think
story was an outfitter has placed a guy in a stand, he shot it ... they didn't tag it properly and so it was never entered .... the guy told me 212"gross and 196 ish net
I went back and found my texts to Jason Braun here. He’s the first one I texted and I was telling him after I shot that he might have been a little young and that I should have waited maybe. At that point I was kind of afraid that he might have been just a 4yr old. When I got there and seen what I thought was a 3yr old it felt like like whole world fell down on top of me.
Let’s try this again…how did that Turkey pic get there. I don’t even have that pic on my phone.
Be still, I know how you operate and treat people. You've done more for KS deer than 90% of us residents. If all of us had your attitude for treating land owners and conservation this would be a better state for hunting by far. You shooting a young deer once in a while isn't going to offset the good you do. Don't sweat it! It's just a deer, the other things you do help people. What's the more important thing here?...
Pic of “Be Stills” 2021 KS jawbone:
Fawn = less than 6 teeth
1.5+ yr old = 6 teeth
Pic of “Be Stills” 2021 KS jawbone:
Fawn = less than 6 teeth
1.5+ yr old = 6 teeth
See green arrows on cusps of 3rd tooth
1.5 yr old = 3 cusps
2.5+ yr old = 2 cusps. This buck is atleast 2.5 yrs old
See green arrows on cusps of 3rd tooth
1.5 yr old = 3 cusps
2.5+ yr old = 2 cusps. This buck is atleast 2.5 yrs old
See yellow circles on 2 cusps of 4th tooth. Cusps (looks like clam shells). Is the horiz. brown slit (dentine) atleast twice as wide as the adjacent white (enamel) of cusps? If no, then 2.5 yrs old. This buck is 2.5 yrs old.
See yellow circles on 2 cusps of 4th tooth. Cusps (looks like clam shells). Is the horiz. brown slit (dentine) atleast twice as wide as the adjacent white (enamel) of cusps? If no, then 2.5 yrs old. This buck is 2.5 yrs old.
Jaw from a 3.5 yr old: 2 cusps of 4th tooth circled in yellow and brown dentine is twice as wide as the white enamel. Not a 4.5 yr old or brown dentine circled in blue would be wider than enamel
Jaw from a 3.5 yr old: 2 cusps of 4th tooth circled in yellow and brown dentine is twice as wide as the white enamel. Not a 4.5 yr old or brown dentine circled in blue would be wider than enamel
While bowhunting in Okla. in the mid 80’s - late 90’s, we had to take our deer to the nearest check station to be “checked-in” to confirm sex, weight, points on left antler, points on right antler and jaw bone extracted to determine age. During that time period, I went on a lot of controlled/draw hunts too and they all had check stations there as well which were ran by either the wildlife biologist or wildlife mgr. They were very happy and willing to teach me how to age my deer and others from the piles of jaw bones they had collected during each hunt. I also volunteered at my County’s check station (Lake Thunderbird) to help check-in deer a few times.
See pic’s and commentary of aging process (above).
Be Still…buddy, ole pal. You are correct that buck was indeed only 2.5 yrs old. Per another recent post, I was told by “someone” on here “Sorry but you got to take it like a man.” No truer words spoken!
Careful with all the nice words Cat…people might start getting this site mistaken for Archery Talk or something:?)
Jason I need more experience on aging them by their teeth. You ought to do a seminar on this at the convention.
Crested- thanks for the tooth aging info. Question for ya; once the tooth structure changes have happen (2.5) can there be a significant difference in wear based on diet? I hunt an area that has ag, but I'm on the edge of it. To the majority of the area around me the deer only have native stuff to eat. Do deer that eat a lot of grain show different wear than deer that don't?
Be still - archerytalk is a cesspool just like bowsite :) Want to see "nice" join a habitat forum. They're sickening nice!
I've been looking the past couple of days and now give up. Sometime this fall there was a very good article in one of the hunting magazines about aging deer by body and antler sizes. Think the author was C.J. Winard, anyhow several different studies in different locations on known age deer and almost every person aging these deer was off by one to two, sometimes three years. To me, the bottom line is if the deer looks good to you, shoot him and THEN stop second guessing your actions!
Catscratch….my understanding (and I am not a biologist) is diet, region, ag/grain, native browse, etc. doesn’t have a significant impact on tooth wear. Sure there might be some isolated/extreme cases but the wear data provided is the norm for the whitetails range across the country mainly because they are typically all exposed to similar environmental factors throughout their lives (ag/grain, native browse, etc.).
Be Still….now don’t you be trying to sign me up for something at Convention. I am happy with giving report, helping with auction and being a fly on the wall. How is that sketch coming…you know the one you promised to the landowner that was bidding against you last year? You do know that you will see him at this years convention!
Glad you reminded me. I just called him and we had a good talk. Still haven’t started my daughter’s pic that I had promised her before his. Told him it’s a possibility that I might could get his done before the convention…we’ll see. He gave me a few ideas on what he likes and I’m looking forward to drawing it for him.
It will turn out great no doubt!
Best way to tell is if the legs look short to its body and if the tarsals are stained dark black. If the deers leg look long and lanky and the overall body structure looks like a race horse then it young. First thing I look at when a deer is coming in is his tarsals. Horns mean squat. Second thing is if in my mind I ask myself is that a shooter i automatically know its not.
That last line Maximus… I’ve lived by that for probably 25 years. I still made a mistake…
I think it was 2001 or 2002, when I was 100% committed to archery. I had a group of bachelor bucks come by me, early season. I always thought the last buck in line was the biggest. I could tell there were 4 bucks in the group. The 3rd one looked like a solid 150 inch 10 pointer. When the last one rounded the corner I looked quickly and let the arrow fly. Even as he ran away I thought I killed a whopper. Made a perfect shot on a perfect 130” two year old 8 point. Beautiful frame, long tines.
I’ve not made a “mistake” since, but there are scenarios where it can happen. Especially when a buck comes in like BeStill had. I do not regret shooting that buck, he ate good and it was a fun hunt… but I’ve become more careful.
Damn, I guess my whole life has been a lie. If that’s a two year old I’ve killed a pile of two’s and maybe a three year old once or twice. Need to recalibrate my way of thinking.
How old was this buck in your opinion based on tooth wear? This is SE Oklahoma…
Tooth wear is not accurate due to varied diets and if they've been rooting in dirt or sand for minerals.
I fully understand that, Thornton. This buck in particular had a diet of grasses/weeds, briars, and primarily acorns, I’m guessing.
He looks about 65 and retired already.
I’d say he’s had a healthy diet of rocks Embry.
I need to show the jaw of the buck I killed this year. If I remember I’ll take a pic tomorrow. Never seen one like it.
I thought I read somewhere that aging by their teeth isn’t really that accurate and they need to be sent off so they can’t split them or something? Maybe like growth rings on a tree? I might have dreamed that
Just did some quick reading.
Looks like aging deer by their teeth is pretty unreliable by wear or by splitting them like I mentioned above. Looking at their rings in a laboratory looks to be even less accurate. According to what I read any buck 2.5 or older has a good chance of being misjudged by a year with either technique.
Deer that eat a lot of hard grains such as corn will wear their teeth down faster. Another reason why you shouldn't bait, lessens the life expectancy.
One thing is for certain. Rick’s deer nor Bestill’s deer was 2.5
Rick….if the dentine is twice as wide as the enamel on all 6 teeth (like that one) you go back and look at the 4th tooth. If the 4th tooth is starting to dish or flatten, the deer is atleast 6.5 yrs old. However, can’t really tell as the 4th tooth on the right side appears to be severely flattened almost to gum line on that right side and completely missing on the left side.
Therefore, I would lean toward a “conservative” estimate of atleast 5.5 yrs old but wouldn’t be surprised if he was 6.5+ yrs old.
For the record, I’ve had the buck above aged by cementum annuli process, which is a much more exact aging. I just thought since some think they can age deer by tooth wear or jaw aging, I’d let them guess. :)
That is some amazing teeth EOkie! You plan on sharing his age?
Back when KS required teeth to be sent in after the harvest by grandpa shot one that aged 13.5yrs old. Both his antlers popped off when he shot it. Wish I had it's teeth to look at.
He was aged at 6.5 yrs through cementum annuli… other area biologists aged him past that due to his tooth wear. In the end, he’s dead and he was mature. :)
I made the mistake of having a deer Boone and Crocket "officially" scored once. I don't care if its a 270 inch deer, I will never "officially" score a deer again. The one I did score, was a very respectable 187 inch gross net 167 & 3/4 inches, I shot it with a compound. It made it into some magazine or some shit. I was very happy with it and I still am. What bothered me about it was the tool that scored it. I won't name names, but dude made it sound like it was an "Okay management" deer as if it was a good deer, but not a great deer. The guy was a real piece of work, very condecending. Its more like Boone and Crock of Shit to me lol. You can take Pope and Young and shove it too. That said I helped a very close childhood friend (were in our mid 40's now and he comes every spring for turkeys) who is originally from here sack a unofficial 228 inch archery deer this fall. True story. Its a great story, almost like one of those gay hunting shows where the non-resident drives fifteen hours in his bro dozer, drops $5-$10k and 300 pounds of corn, and slaps his Kansas "Booner" up on social media only different. Im burnt out on hunting myself, sold all my stands, fourwheeler, and havent set up any cameras in almost 3 years. I told my buddy I would help try to get him a deer a couple years ago before the pandemic started though and he finally made it. I securred permission for him, set up a couple stands and cameras 2 weeks before his arrival in early November. No corn, minerals, no food, no bait, nothing, just a scent wick with a little estrous, some pre-orbital scent and a tarsal gland I had marinating in the fridge the last two years lol. I showed him where he could go and where he couldn't and from there he was on his own unless he shot something, then I would help him recover and process. He hunted four days and was gone. he would of been happy with a 135 inch basket rack but did pass on what he called a nice 10 and 8 pointers. He ended up with a nice 228 inch buck. A bueatiful speciman I must say. Sorry no pictures though. People tend to get stupid about big deer and he is the guy who can't stand grip and grins on social media and honestly I feel like its getting old myself. Funny thing, one of the neighbors got a little miffed about it. Messaged me two weeks after my buddy had left asking if he was able to get anything. I told him about it and he got a little miffed about it. said he had been hunting that deer for two weeks and had passed up several 170+ deer waiting on that one which had already been dead two weeks lol. I was like dude, he wasn't even in your neighborhood, he died a mile and a half down the road. People get pictures on a corn pile and think its "their deer" I guess. So no pictures but yeah true story.
Rick…you gotta admit I was pretty dang close. I was actually going to peg it as a 6.5 yr old but not being able to see the true condition of the 4th tooth made me lean a tad more conservative.
Maybe I need to start a side hustle estimating age via teeth wear? No need to send your teeth samples into Matson’s Laboratory or Wildlife Analytical Labs and spend $25-$75 for (CA) aging technique.
Be Still…..bring that jaw bone with you next time you come thru Wichita and we can meet up at KDW&P Great Plains Nature Center (about 2 miles from I-35 corridor) and have one of their biologist age it and see if it aligns with my 2.5 yr. old estimate.
Corn piles… lol! It’s the new way of the bowhunting world. Cell cam, pile of failure (Thx Sito), deer daylights, go sit… lame!
Jason… yep, you were close. But, don’t quit the day job. :)
Merry Christmas, all!
I think Be still's buck is 3.5.
Otown.. is your neighbor by chance Pat L? .. if he has a deer on Camera, by Law it is his!!!!
It ain’t 3.5…but thanks for playing.
if it's 2.5 please share a photo of what a similar buck would look like at 1.5 that isn't from a game farm. thanks
Cherney…see pic above with green arrows…it explains what teeth wear of a 1.5 yr old deer would look like. All jaw bone examples from above are from wild deer (can’t speak for Rick but have no reason to believe it was pen raised) and no one on here is trying to sneak pen raised deer in as example. Not sure where you are coming from on that?
Guys, I don’t mean to be blowing your minds but Yes…I guess some on here are finally coming to terms/realizing they’ve actually been shooting younger deer than they thought. Real similar situation to a lot of these over inflated scores people spout off. For example, many on here and throughout our circles will say the deer they are hunting or have killed is a 170 class buck when in reality if they had it “officially” scored actually would be a high 150’s to low 160’s. I would guess that the average hunter that likes to spout off scores knowingly or unknowingly mis-judge their scores by an avg. of atleast 10”.
Who died and made you the all-knowing guru of deer? I've never seen a deer on my property of corn and soybeans grow that much in 2.5 years, and I've been watching the same deer for 12 years.
Far from all knowing. However, the teeth wear on average don’t lie. Like I said above there could always be extreme cases. If it makes you feel better to estimate it as an “extreme” case 3.5 yr old…then knock yourself out…but it ain’t and it is clear as day to me that it’s a 2.5 yr old.
I was saying I’d like to see what that deer or one similar would look like as a 1.5 year old. I have never seen a 100+” 1 year old. Maybe they exist? That is what I was getting at with deer farms, I assume their 1 year olds would be 100+
You admit that the method is reliable “on average”… you know how averages work right?
I can't agree. Never knowingly seen it myself in 28 years of killing bucks, but I've heard of it.This is what I'm used to. I'm at work and my work computer won't let me post hunting stuff so I'll just screen shot it.
There are freaks of nature. Rare beasts that defy normal. There is an 8th grader from Sudan playing basketball in Orlando. The kid is 7'3"... he's 14! He doesn't fit normal growth charts. Does that mean he will get a growth spurt his freshman and sophomore yrs like a normal teen boy? Im guessing no, but who knows? Be still's buck could be one of those freaks that grew off the charts early in life. He may have continued on a normal curve afterwards or just stayed about the same for the next 3 yrs. We'll never know.
I don't put much into shooting bucks based on age. I can't age a deer worth a damn so if he looks big and makes me happy then I fling an arrow. Usually just watch and enjoy the day that I got to hunt though and only shoot a buck every couple of yrs.
Here's some antlers that go along with Thornton's article. Honestly don't know the age of the buck either with shed or from the kill. Sheds could be 2.5 and 3.5, and the buck 4.5. Could be 2.5, 4.5, and 5.5. Could be 3.5, 4.5, and 5.5? Don't know when I picked them up compared to when I shot the deer. Certainly an increase in size though.
Could be freaks of nature in antler size but not tooth density or wear characteristics? Got it
Otown, you elegantly summed up my thoughts regarding sharing kill pics on social media… again, the digression of this thread solidifies that.
No telling if that buck is 2,3, or 4. After reading SEVERAL articles and a few case studies the tooth wear method is accurate within +/-2 years. Cementum annuli is a little more tricky. Read a pretty interesting article where a guy sent in multiple teeth from a buck he was guessing to be 6.5. All teeth were from the same deer and they were fairly consistent (5.5-6.5)except on one tooth… it came back as 3.5.
With that said, my gut instinct from looking at deer for over 30 years is that Bestills deer is 3+… and that determination has very little to do with his jaw.
I’ve seen freaks of nature. 140” deer blow up into 200” deer. 135” into 180” deer. That period of blowing up never happens between 2 and 3… always between 3 and 4 or 4 and 5. Don’t believe I’ve ever seen a buck with that kind of mass through its whole rack at 2.5. I guess it’s possible, but in terms of “averages”… extremely unlikely.
Here’s an interesting bit of info… my grandfather had several baby teeth in his mouth when he died.
I have a friend who had several implants before he was 20.
A lot of outliers, some extreme, that pretty much guarantee none of us know what we are talking about;-)
I wonder if base diameter is a good judge of age? I was deadly on 3.5 year old bucks in high school and into college. Have a whole wall of them and bases were usually 3.5 "-4". Buck I got this year had 5.25" bases and I guessed him to be 5.5. But then again, it's all a guess.
Cherney….as you requested a pic of a 1.5 yr old and as described earlier in my post above with green arrows. If you don’t agree…then no skin off my back.
One Arrow…I am familiar with the (CA) article you are referencing. If I remember correctly, that process relies on dark stained rings caused by winter stress. Since winters are less severe in the southern U.S., the dark stained rings can be less distinct and thus can affect accuracy of the (CA) process. If I remember right, the accuracy of the (CA) process for tooth samples sent in by the author from the same area/region of Iowa came back a little over 50% accurate based on his known history with the bucks and their tooths sent in which were aged via that process.
Still looks like gibberish to me. I take care of people every day. On a 40 year old methamphetamine user, teeth can look like a 105 year old. I figure the same can happen on a 3 year buck addicted to chewing on dirt or hard browse. Never thought they ate dirt until I dozed out a pond back in 2010. Herds of deer were showing up in the drought in 2012 and literally eating the dirt.
Well I slipped back up here to try it again for a few days and what do you know…woke up about 3:00 and can’t go back to sleep. Guess that old guy’s sleeping habits has kicked back in.
Ray again I want to say that nobody has hurt my feelings on this thread…you keep talking like this thread is bad or something. I like people to say what they really think. Plain and Simple and tell the truth.
Ray you kind of hinted that this deer could be 4 by saying 3+. Now 4 in my book is still too young but I would love to call him a 4 at this point but there’s simply no way. If he’s not 3 then definitely 2 and that’s me not going off of his teeth either. The body was small and everything from the skin and legs just yelled out very young. He only scored 151 so it’s not like he was way up there. You mentioned freaks of nature and I’m sure there is some but I think most big deer in the 200’s get there by just not having one super big jump in one year. For example when you have a 4 scoring in the 70’s or 80’s what do you think he was at the year before? On average that is. My thinking is that he’s hitting around the 50 mark and above. Yes I agree the horns on this speak out 3yr old but the body yelled out 2 to me. I still think people look at horns too much. I think it’s easier for the horns to grow quicker and get some size on a deer than it is for their body to get big at such a young age.
You talked about a 2 yr old having mass…here’s another one for you. I took a video as this deer walked under my tree in 2017 up there. I think he even had more mass than the other one. Got lucky last year and found his shed from 2017 as well protected in tall grass. All gross but guessed him close to 30 at 2, around 50 at 3, around 70 at 4, and close to 190 at 5 yrs old.
And here’s his progression for 3 to 5….the first pic is when he was 3 of course. Now when he was 4 I thought his horns was good enough to shoot. When he was at 18 yards that year though knowing he was only 4 kept me from taking him. So glad I made that decision cause looked what he did at 5.
I got a bunch more pics of different bucks back at the house that I developed off of my phone that I kept history with and how they developed over the years. Always thought it was interesting how they grew their horns from year to year.
But I’m cleaning up my act now for Kansas’s sake so those pics and keeping up with them is going to be harder to do. It will be worth the harder work for sure though. Sometimes a person can take it too far though and you nearly feel like you’re not hunting a wild animal anymore.
Thornton we have one field where every year there are tracks leading to a spot in the middle of it. I’m talking a highway of tracks. The soil is almost white… they tear it up every year. Kind of weird. I’d say it’s about the size of a truck hood, maybe bigger.
I’ve always wanted to do a soil test there.
Be still, I don’t think he’s 4. I just have a hard time saying 3.5. He could have been 3.6 for all I know :)
Honestly, I’d like to see more body pics of that buck above you are saying is 2.
I’d say 20” per year is pretty standard if I look back at bucks over the years. I’m talking huge jumps, freaks. When the skeletal system has finally reached maturity the potential for a big jump is more likely.
I’ve seen bucks grow 30” between 3 and 4 and never grow a bigger rack after that, some go way down. I’ve never been able to figure any of it out, but it is fascinating.
Good luck Mike, get-r-dun
Im not asking for teeth pics, would like to see a pic on the hoof of one of these freak 2.5 year olds we are speaking of at 1.5.
Nice buck there for sure and what did you have him at when he was 2.5? 110”? Nvm I see where you guessed 130. Do you have a pic of him as a 1 year old?
This buck was passed at 4.5. We killed as a 5.5 and he gained roughly 5 inches. He gained 20-25 inches from 3.5-4.5..
West Central Illinois..
I guess I hunt for a different reason than a lot of people. I don't worry about age, P&Y score, or anything else. If I have a chance at a deer and it trips my trigger, I will send an arrow towards it.
Lee, I agree. I still believe any animal hunted in an ethical manner with a bow is a trophy to be proud of no matter the size. I myself would be more proud of a fork horn I shot off a scape or rub line than a 150 class at a feeder or corn pile but that just my personal feelings.
I agree with the last two comments as well. I don’t see deer often enough to name them or get an age estimate. When they trip my trigger, they’re likely to die. The aging thing to me is just something to do after the season, and send some teeth in. Heck, they’re usually 4.5 plus anyways, and really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme.
Two dogs: I agree have missed this entire season due to foot problems but will be kickin it at convention.
One Arrow….see my 12/24 post above. What’s your estimate?
I boiled it out, so I have a guess, but I’d like to hear your opinion… and why, so I don’t make a complete fool of myself.
I already have an idea but need better pics….pics from above and from other side of jaw bone. If you are serious, then send me your e-mail address in a PM and we can coordinate getting me the add’l pics needed. Figure this topic has already de-railed the intent of your original post enough as it is.
Will then be happy to discuss via e-mail or PM’s so the naysayers on here can be left to their own devices. Just know I am trying to help and spread some knowledge (via a process that a bunch of well meaning wildlife conservationists and professionals have been using for decades and decades to manage deer herds and that were happy to teach me and others) of which that I have been using not just for 10, 15 or even a young 28 yrs….but over 40 years of bowhunting experience.
In my opinion, it is real convenient to hit the “easy button” and say that there are no mature bucks around to hunt these days by trying to blame/claim that it’s the non-residents who are harvesting way too many “young” deer when I would be willing to bet that us residents contribute just as much to this problem.
Only other pic I have is this one. If you need another I’ll have to take a picture tomorrow.
Thanks Kyle. Hunting a new place I’ve never been before. With the high winds and this time of the year with not knowing where to sit in the dark I didn’t go yesterday morning. Instead I drove the roads right at daylight by some places this farmer/rancher/very interesting cool ole guy gave me permission to hunt to see if I could find where they’re feeding and bedding. Yesterday evening seen one young doe and that was it. Few tracks in the snow but for the amount of time it’s been on the ground…not enough in my opinion.
Patrick 2017 was the first year for me to hunt Kansas so I don’t have a pic of him at 1. Back at the house though when I get time I’ll go through my developed pics and maybe find a few at the time. Lol I usually don’t save too many at that age.
Personally, I’ve never seen one like this before.
This is off the buck I killed this year
Per Thorton’s 12/19 post above, the hunter that killed what could be the #4 KS archery typical is a buddy of mine and I have actually hunted ducks and dove on his small place along the Arkansas River.
He killed it in early Oct. and had been hunting it (and obviously feeding it) for over 3 yrs. He is a great guy with a passion for land management “for whitetails.”
Yes, he gets his archery equip. serviced at the El Dorado Sutherlands but his place where he killed this deer is far from El Dorado and Butler County as a whole.
See more pics attached
Oh my goodness that's a great buck crested!
Did I read somewhere Boone and Crockett doesn't recognize corn feeder bucks?
^^^Yeah, I think sitO posted that ;-)
What the heck is that? Are they seriously putting corn in bowls now for these things???
Either way, that’s a big’un… any idea on green score?
I have nothing nice to say
I am in agreement…it’s sad.
Jason….glad you brought that up as I am in total agreement with B&C not allowing baited animals for submission. I hope P&Y will do the same…or do they….anyone know for sure?
Seriously… what in the world is that thing he’s eating? Corn cookie? I’ve never seen anything like that.
How does that not get moldy and nasty?
I can just imagine this guy telling the story of shooting this deer. So you see I had been dumping 500lbs of feed to him for months. Then that's when I stopped caring lol
how is that more appalling to people than a normal feeder or a pile of corn? lol... imagine telling any story where you are hunting bait.... especially with a cell cam. "I been getting pics of this big deer on my phone comin in for food.. went out and low and behold he came right to that spot and I shot him!" AMAZING!!!!! I don't think they do it for the story just for the pictures and the heads...
Patrick, agreed….and by baiting they certainly don’t do it for the purity or challenge of the sport either?
I absolutely hate hearing "I've been watching this deer for months", when it's a cell cam over a pile. This is watching deer, in person,through a spotting scope or binoculars, and it requires effort.
Boone and Crockett’s mission statement still reads that they accept baited entries from regions where baiting is a legal practice. I can’t imagine that’s changed recently.
Kaleb…do you know if P&Y allows baited entries from regions where baiting is legal? I would hope not!
Yes, they always have to my knowledge. They did release a statement condoning cell cams and their place in fair chase a couple years ago and do not accept animals killed as a result of a real-time photo transmission. So there is that at least.
That’s sad….hope both change their stance on that someday.
Too tricky. It’s a widely accepted management tool (think interior black bears) and we’d all agree, unfortunately a widely accepted hunting practice in certain regions. Both organizations would gain little if anything by going against the states. And you’d have to rewrite the books. Which would be impossible. Hopefully the states wise up while there’s still a good enough resource to protect.
Too tricky but they condone cell cams.....huh how about that
It took this fellow three years to kill the buck. If you can’t see the difference between that and a real-time photo or even a farmer calling you and saying there’s a big buck laying against my shelter belt on section 16, then I can’t really help you. I don’t like it anymore than the next fellow, but the deer still has free will and probably a dozen more piles to pick from. No shortage of leases and NR landowners on the Ark. Acting like he was the only one hunting it and the only one providing feed is a little naive.
It's not tricky. If you can't see that I can't help you. Say that animals shot over bait aren't accepted into the record books. Not tricky in the slightest way.
And alienate folks who were raised where baiting is a commonly accepted practice along with those who agree with the overwhelming good it does in ecosystems where certain species need managed? Just because a guy who hunts a few counties in Kansas doesn’t agree with it? What good does that do the club. Your squabble is with the state, not hunting organizations.
Are you a P&Y member? I thought most guys on here “couldn’t care less about scores or entering bucks!“ :)
The simple answer Kaleb, it's not hunting...and yes a member.
Smoking crack is a commonly accepted practice in some places. You don't need to enter animals into a record book when you are shooting them to manage them as part of maintaining a healthy ecosystem. If you have to have bait to kill them as part of a management effort is it still "hunting"? The answer is no. Sorry buddy ole pal. Why are you concerned with the good of the club over the good of the state of hunting? Hell no I'm not a member. Clubs are for dudes that care what other people think and you know that ain't me. Happy New Year.
I find that clubs or organizations, with a focus on hunting/various species, are more of a collective of folks that care the most and do the most good for their cause. Maybe you find it differently in all the ones you don’t participate in. I’m sorry to hear that. I won’t ever feel guilty for donating to P&Y by entering an animal. I haven’t hardly posted a kill pic anywhere in a couple years and really don’t care if my name is all over the book. If that’s the only reason why folks think people enter critters so be it. The organization’s messaging might be out of touch and/or preconceived notions/pride don’t ever give some folks a chance to find out otherwise.
I’m not advocating for corn. I’ll be at the reception and buy a round when it’s banned in Kansas! Just don’t agree that it’s P&Y’s responsibility to police it (and not sure why non members care). Happy New Year!
Cuz it’s a hunting club that accepts animals killed in a manner that ain’t actually hunting ya dig. I should prolly join but I spend way too much money already.
I’m 55, and hunting in EVERY aspect has changed in 30 years. Just like it changed from the 30 years prior to that. It’s over, the golden years were a perfect storm of access and quality. Be thankful you got to experience it, it’s not ever coming back. Adjust, adapt and make the best of it but please stop bitxxing about it.
And the fact that they don’t condone/allow cell cams but do allow baiting tells you they are more worried about backlash/alienation/losing members than doing what is right.
It’s a bowhunting club that is focused on preserving and promoting the future of bowhunting. It has a record keeping program that currently allows corn fed Kansas bucks because the state of Kansas allows them to be killed as such. Why not elect the folks who can and will ban baiting in Kansas instead of asking a national hunting organization to cut its throat and in doing so accomplish absolutely nothing for the cause that you’re pursuing? Other than some feel good points from a few of us. Once those folks are elected and things have changed, no longer will P&Y accept corn piled Kansas bucks.
Thought it prided itself on being fair chase
“ Once the decision has been made that baiting is legal, whether to use bait or not is a matter of personal choice. The Club defines Fair Chase as “the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals.” This definition is based on the meaning of “fair” that relates to legitimate, genuine, or appropriate given the circumstances. Where an increased harvest of a particular species needs to occur, or where positive identification of size or sex is a legal requirement, baiting is “appropriate given the circumstances” and does not violate Fair Chase principles.”
Your state legislature and biologists have deemed it necessary to kill deer over corn piles. When that changes so will B&C/P&Y’s acceptance of KS entries.
Necessary? What are you talking about.
" ethical, sportsmanlike...manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals"
This cannot be said about baiting, it's not a disagreement, it's fact.
Jason were was that photo taken? I don’t need specifics, just curious about what part of the state?
I do a TON of glassing and I’ve never been able to see further than 3/4 mile.
I really don’t understand why people don’t glass/scout more and would rather rely more on cams/feeders. Even if you take the whole “ethics” part out of it… I just don’t see the need really.
Honestly, I don’t care anymore do what makes you happy, but dang hunting them on the ground, moving in close is 1000000% more exciting than sitting in a stand next to a corn muffin.
I mean look at Kyle’s hunt… that’s real. More impressed with the videography of his missed shot than that “potential #4” pic above. I couldn’t do what he did there.
“By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game“
You know what works better than any electronic device for attracting game? Bait!
It’s not that hard. The state legislature doesn’t give a shit that you or I can’t kill a big buck ChernDog. They have to weigh pressure from landowners, farm bureau, car insurance companies, non hunting citizens, etc. to manage the herd accordingly. Corn is legal because it’s an effective tool to kill deer, although some studies/opinions would differ. But it’s utilized for now. If the herd/social dynamics change enough that they can be convinced it’s a negative it’ll be done away with.
Agree with Ray. I’d rather hunt a giant living in a sea of CRP or yuccas than a landscape where bait is considered the best play.
I’m not aware of many electronic devices that attract game, other than a FoxPro, but it’s sure easier to kill something when you know where it is rather than where you hope it’s going to be the last 10 minutes of light. Not sure how the cell cam thing has snuck under the radar with the states when most have regs regarding the electronic transmission of whereabouts. Other than it being impossible to enforce. Props to the clubs for being ahead on that at least!
You said it’s been deemed necessary by the state … as if the P&Y stance made sense. I know words are hard but you can do it. Take time to be thoughtful about how you use them plz
If your goal is to kill a deer, not a record book buck just a deer, corn would be a much better tool than a cell cam if you are bow hunting. u know it, I know it and the American people know it
One Arrow- to the left is Kansas, and to the right is Oklahoma in the panhandle. There are 7 does in that photo, but I think only 3 are visible. I guess you hunt in SE Kansas. The rest of the state is open for the most part. I hunt areas in Greenwood, Gove, North Central, and Chase counties you can see 10-15 miles or more. The buck I shot this year on public was 800 yards away when I first saw him and started the stalk.
I've watched a lot of stories unfold in my spotting scope. Here, a very big buck wanders out of a ravine following a doe into another draw on the left that the hunter just walked by. The hunter 400 yards to the right never saw them as he hunted into the sun. They were 2 miles away according to my Sig rangefinding binoculars.
KB….in post above you mention that P&Y released a statement condoning “cell cams” and their place in fair chase a couple years ago and do not accept animals killed as a result of a real-time photo transmission.
This is from my buddy’s Facebook post about his buck. Per what I underlined in red, I don’t know if he is referring to a “cell cam” specifically but it appears that some sort of trail camera was paramount in patterning this buck and thus getting him in the stand at the right time for a better/best chance at killing it.
Let’s say he decides to enter this buck in P&Y. Based on his own comments provided, do you think his entry will be accepted? Is there a process in place or questions on the P&Y application that help identify whether an entry is questionable or just not acceptable?
If your goal is to kill a pronghorn, a private land water hole with a man made blind in the midst of an “all timer” drought is pretty effective too. No issue with that one this year though? Deadlier than a corn pile in the Flint Hills I’d say.
While we’re at it, JT is hunting. Good bit closer to true fair chase than sitting 18ft up a tree in a Lone Wolf. We could do that all day…
Jason, there’s a fair chase affidavit and questionnaire where you list the primary equipment used, answer questions about how the hunt played out/tactics involved and give a brief synopsis of the kill/track job.
I’m no judge and jury on this one, but if he got a cell pic of him at midnight and killed him 18 hours later that evening I don’t think that’s what they’re trying to police. He could have walked in and checked the card that morning and had the same intel. Granted it would be a little riskier. I think a situation where a guy is sitting in a stand, has no intentions of moving until his phone dings, and then makes a move on the ground that leads directly to a quick harvest because he knew exactly where the buck was is more likely a no go.
Jason, I’ve been from one end of this state to the other.
Been to Western Kansas many times. Unfortunately never to hunt (except pheasants)… I like the thought of heading out West and doing some glassing and hunting, but never really knew where to start. I absolutely love glassing and moving in… I’m guessing there would be more opportunities for that style out West? Don’t know, just an assumption. Yes, I live, farm, hunt in SE Kansas… Half the time I watch a big buck go into a block of timber or a timbered creek and then it’s just a guessing game.
Occasionally I can get one to hold up in a draw, crp, or small block of timber… been lucky a few times that way, but it’s by far the most fun. Seems like the stars only align for those types of opportunities two or three times a season in my neck of the woods. It’s the reason why I burn a lot of gas and shred tires. I would think open country and being able to see that far would increase those opportunities.
Wish I had more time to explore Kansas hunting opportunities across the state.
Live and learn Chern. (It was pretty wet in 2010 as I recall. Even some green grass in that pic). ;)
Haha, thanks Dan! Probably what I miss most now that I’m “stuck” up here in Alaska.
Live and learn what? That you love bait and will even go so far as to argue for its allowance in Pope and young? Oh I learned alright. What about your man made blind???? Anyways you see what you’ve done. You’ve turned the conversation from bait to water and blinds. Good job. A true warrior for baiting records.
And what was your silly pronghorn doing coming to a waterhole in a wet year? be about like a giant flint hills buck choosing the few lucky piles on your property!!! What a coincidence
“Jason….glad you brought that up as I am in total agreement with B&C not allowing baited animals for submission. I hope P&Y will do the same…or do they….anyone know for sure?“
If P&Y did that, they’d have to go back and put an asterisk by A LOT of entries. Many of which frequent this site. ;)
Baiting is for kids and lazy people. Just like crossbows. (Sito told me to say that). :)
“I know a guy who is dead nuts with a recurve… hunts and kills multiple deer over corn. Looks the part. Great guy, but couldn’t tell you the difference between an oak and a walnut tree. Woodsmanship is dying and getting quality hero pics are more important.”
100% spot on. I see it ALL the time. “I hunt with a self bow, and knapped heads.” Oh, but what they don’t tell you is they are hunting over a feeder or a pile of failure.
They really wouldn’t have to do anything to their record books. Could put a disclaimer in stating that records prior to today could have been harvested with the help of bait, where allowed. It would be a good thing if they did and would help people that are on the fence about it or too polite and considerate to speak out against baiting gain the courage to join the fight. Instead you have guys like Kaleb pussyfooting around half heartedly arguing for baitin in the name of being a good old boy for the P&Y Club.
I called that style an oxymoron a while back, Rick. That wasn't well received, but still valid.
For the record I am against corn feeders corn piles and Cell trail cams and Crossbows they are cancers to our hunting. I still think the any season whitetail tag hurt the archery season as much. Baiting is a broad term, I guess to some using a pond that is a natural part of the ground is a no no , but some could argue a trail leading to a corn field or milo is ok or is it any different than setting a waterhole. What about putting a deer decoy out that is not a natural part of the land to bring that buck to you for a close shot are we all ok with that? To some it is baiting that animal to some it is legal so it is ok.. Who is right who is wrong? I will stand by my statement that I would be proud to shoot a fork horn on a trail than a State record on a corn pile. I would not be proud of that . But just who I am.
I get what you're saying Chern, but I suspect KB is the best open country stalker on here. I do it a lot, but have only closed the deal a few times with a bow, many times with a rifle. I think he does it regularly with bow.
Jason , I agree KB is a good stalker, shooting a Bighorn sheep is not an easy task .
I know him pretty well and what he’s capable of. Doesn’t make his half hearted argument in support of corn piles okay lol
Not only the best open country stalker, but one of the best bow hunters on Earth. Willing to do whatever it takes to ensure a successful hunt and continually chooses extremely difficult hunts over the easy road. With that said, his softening on corn piles is not acceptable!!!!!!!!!
I think instead of the same old merry go round here I’ll send some commission/leg emails on free time today ahead of the commission meeting. I’m sure it’ll do the same amount of good overall, but at least I’ll feel better about it. Have a good day gents.
Dan, with a feeder or failure pile you are purposely training the animal to come to a specific spot, and even a specific time in some cases, with sustenance....that's the difference.
As one arrow said it best! " look at Kyle’s hunt… that’s real. More impressed with the videography of his missed shot than that “potential #4” pic above. I couldn’t do what he did there."
Kyle, Yes I know the difference, I guess I did not convey how much I hate corn in Ks. What I was getting at I could be wrong but seemed Cherney was slamming KB for hunting water for Pronghorn. I hunt Antelope over water it is an advantage but not a sure thing by no means. Just like using a decoy which I am not against but don't use is an advantage for sure at times but also not a sure thing. I hope I live long enough to see feeders and piles illegal in Ks but it starts at state Level. And yes Kyles hunt are top notch he has my Respect for sure! I feel sad for the Deer hunters that did not hunt Ks in late 70's till the early 90's when you had to read sign to hunt.
DGW you just don't hear about hunters targeting rub lines and scrapes anymore. They don't go to the deer, but instead, want to bring the deer to them. Easy button. The bows the shoot make it easy. No finger release, no flipper rest. They can't tune a bow so they have to shoot mechanical broadheads. I used to love the off season, making stands. We used a 4x4 post with a plywood seat and platform. Turnbuckle and chain to secure to tree with coated wire for the cables. I would make about a dozen every year. No one ever stole them. But the best stands were made from a couple 2 x 4's nailed in a tree. Army camo but eventually gave way to Treebark camo. Autumn Orange XX75 and JDA arrows and 3 blade Satellite and Rocky Mountain broadheads. Those were the good days.
Jeff, I’ve hunted and built many homemade wooden stands, that’s one thing I’ll disagree with… don’t miss those. Ha! Still have a couple wooden skeletons in trees… can see the nails in the stand I killed my first buck in.
I shot fingers for years. Felt like I was a better shot back then… I know my form was better. Took a ton of practice.
DGW, Kaleb tried to take a cut at me by bringing up that I sat in a blind by a water tank for a couple hours out of a 3 day pronghorn hunt in western Kansas this year. That’s why I said he’s sad sometimes.
In a drought no less! And you guys did kill one in the first 30 minutes of the first sit?
I digress. It was purely sarcasm. And no I don’t look down on water holers. Dan’s buck this year was a beauty!
This has gone off the rails, you boys need to settle down. Don't make me stand up.
“gone off of the rails” seems that has been used before. ;)
I've been stuck at DFW for a few hours and may have possibly found a watering "hole"
Ray, the ones I made looked like a factory made stand, just put together with wood and bolts. I trusted them better than buying one.
How many inches of rain does it require in a given area for a buck to be legally killed over a water hole or tank:?)
Never have shot one of those but just as a spectator on the sidelines it sure looks more exciting to hunt them like Kyle does with a decoy instead of sitting by water.
I have yet to shoot a pronghorn so I can't tell you how it feels, but I've hunted them a few times and it's fun! Never sat on a water hole. I've done a combination of spot-n-stalk or sit-n-wait trying to intercept. All day hunts, crawling for miles, running out of water, lost every arrow in my quiver on a stalk once (That one sucked! I backtracked but didn't find any of them. Should have been paying attention while crawling through milo, stickers, and giant anthills for 3hrs. but didn't realize they they were catching and falling off.). I've got access to a water tank. Might hunt it someday but right now I'm having fun exploring a new area.
New question on the topic of bait and feeding...
It's obvious most of you guys don't like the idea of shooting a deer on bait.
What about growing a deer with bait? Let's say the buck in this thread has been eating high protein bait for 3yrs and actually has 30 inches of antler that it wouldn't have had on native browse and normal ag. Lets say the guy that shot him had fed him this whole time but never baited after velvet dropped. Is that as disagreeable as shooting a deer over bait? Growing a deer?
Ha Cat way to hurry up and add another post to draw everybody’s attention off of the fact you lost all your arrows. Now that just made my day and that is some funny stuff. It would have made it better if you would have made a successful stalk and reached back there to grab one….and nada. Or maybe you did?
Now anybody that has met Cat here would understand why this made my day. He seems very organized and not the type of guy that would make any mistakes.
On your topic there. Me and you was keeping a conversation going over the years about the one that was growing up there. Now I wasn’t feeding any protein or anything to make him grow more horns but after awhile something started gnawing at me. Told you I was starting to get too close to him like I was having feelings for him and didn’t know for sure if I was really wanting to shoot him or not. I started thinking it might be cool just to see this deer die of old age instead of hanging on my wall. I think it turned out good that the older local guy got him a couple miles away. Like I said earlier for me it started feeling like the wildness of the animal was going away. That’s one reason I’m starting to try and change my ways up there.
Now if I would have stopped after he got mature and went after him without corn I’m not sure if those feelings would have went away on that particular deer. I suspect it would feel the same way if someone fed stuff just to make an animal get bigger. I’m sure this guy could tell you how he feels or how it made him felt.
Well, you see... I actually had an arrow at the ready and took kind of a long shot at that critter. Didn't see where the arrow went but I think I shot a hair low. After the shot I realized there was nothing left in my quiver, empty. Kicked around for a while to find the one I flung out there but nothing. Backtracked until dark and didn't find any that got knocked out. Went back to the hotel and did a internet search for archery shops or hunting stores and guess what; there are no archery shops anywhere close to where I was hunting. Went ahead and stayed the night in my hotel and drove home the next day. Lost the entire weekend and spent some extra money that I didn't need to. Went and told the land owner what happened just in case he ended up with a flat some day that was caused by a broadhead so that he would know who to bill. He just laughed and laughed! Then he took be for a drive in his truck and drove right up to several different bucks that let him get within bow range like they've never been hunted before. Apparently they are used to HIS truck and don't run into the next county when they see it.
I remember you getting close to that one buck. Started talking about photography instead of bowhunting around that time. Glad you've found a new excitement in bowhunting, kind of bummed you aren't seeing more mature deer than you are.
Mineral? Or the fancy supplements they have that gets em hooked cuz it dilates their veins and gives them some sort of heart rate alteration? I am cool with trace mineral like you'd give to livestock. I don't like the idea of trying to get one hooked on your pile or feeder thru science, but I wouldn't hunt over any of it and deer usually stop hitting mineral during the day once September rolls around. I think they like it when it's hot and their antlers are growing or they're nursing fawns.
Cat that story just got even better…now that’s a classic. I’ll never forget that one.
Oh hold on now Patrick. Not sure if I like that look on you and you might want to think on that. That’s a tricky slope and could be the first step towards you being called Patty:?)
Well I guess Erica thinks I’m on bowsite too much. We just made a bet that I couldn’t stay off here for 4 days. Told her I wouldn’t even take a peep on here for 4 straight days after this post.
It’s probably going to be 4 days anyway before Wenzel gives us the details of his hunt on the last day. By reading this though it will cause him to start doing jumping jacks and he’ll post right away…you watch.
Well y’all keep it real and y’all don’t have too much fun now. A bet is a bet and I’m about to prove her wrong.
I love the "rabbit trails" we often go down on threads like this, good stuff
I’ve put out salt blocks and “trophy rock”. I really don’t think there’s much benefit to it myself and as for a deer putting on 30” by utilizing minerals. I’ve never really thought of it as baiting, but I guess it is? I sure as heck wouldn’t waste my time hunting over them. Not even sure why I do it, all it does is make a mud hole.
I know of 2 bucks that put on 50”+ and at least 5 bucks that put on 30” plus… in one year, on native browse and agriculture.
It’s simply not needed… IMO.
With that said, I’ve actually thought about it the last 3 years. I have a very good friend that does it, I’ve never tried it, not saying I won’t in the future, but right now I’m not convinced it’s necessary.
I would think if you’re going to be serious about it, you would have already started feeding and wouldn’t stop until mid-August? That stuff is crazy expensive.
If you got that much money to blow…just buy a horse instead?
In post above, Be Still’s “boss” is kicking him off BS for 4 days…who is the Patty exactly? Who wants to bet he sneaks some peeks on BS before the weekend is even over? She’s gonna find him all curled up hiding in a dark closet getting his BS fix on or in the bathroom for long periods of time with the water running. What a WEENIE!
Reminds me of when I was working exclusively from home during COVID and I kept seeing this guy parked for long periods of time in the street out in front of my house daily. After about a week of this….I got fed up and walked out front and tapped on his drivers side window and asked “What’s Up?” Turns out he was one of my neighbors from the next block and was also working from home exclusively too. However, to keep his wife from knowing he was a habitual on-line gambler he would jump in his car (to run daily errands for his wife) but first drive around the corner and park in front of my house and place and watch his betting lines. WUSSIFUCATION OF AMERICA!
Erica….get in the kitchen and make me that sandwich!
$100 says you wouldn't read that post to your wife JW ;?)
I tried but she said she doesn't have time to hear it from me...she said she was too busy making sandwiches for our road trip to the land of milk and honey tomorrow!
You're a funny focker
My wife laughed and laughed...until I put her back in the box
Only shot one pronghorn with a bow, from the top of a windmill, while he watched me draw. 54 yards, and he avoided both the water tank and the decoy. I guess he was both smart and dumb at the same time.
Too funny….someone from posts above has been grounded from BS and is having withdrawals. Poor guy?
Wait a minute! This guys builds bionic robo deer decoy things in his basement, spends ungodly amounts of money to buy back his own art, and cleans whole deer in his kitchen. He may be the only old married guy in this whole group that still has his Man Card! Anyway, I'm getting tired of waiting for the ending too. Let hear how that last day went!
I can always count on JB. Playtime is over Wenzel. Now get on back to your desk and settle on down.
Pretty good work here though so I’ll give you a B+….I could have done better.
Do you realize you will be seeing her in about 2 months? After she’s had a couple of bottles of wine in the back room yonder I’m going to leave her with you. This should be a whole lotta fun:?)
crestedbutte's Link
Mike…is Erica writing your BS comment above, because you’re not supposed to be back on BS until tomorrow, right?
Some above were wondering what was being fed to that big ole buck my buddy shot in Oct. (see above) which will most likely become the KS #4 typical whitetail with a bow. I am sure those of you wondering have nothing but pure intentions and if using these would only do so to put weight and inches on the deer in the off-season (from Feb. - August) and remove them come hunting season, right?
Anyway, it is called “Rack Elite” (claimed to be high protein/digestible deer nutrition) and he told me they are sold at only 2 locations in KS that he is aware of….the ethanol plant in Lyons, KS and Yoder Farm & Ranch in Haven, KS. They come in 200 lb. tubs and cost approx. $100-$125. Cash only at Lyons, KS location. Cash or card at the Haven, KS location. He said the deer bite it rather than licking it.
To me, it seems like a waste of time and money as I believe the deer get the majority of their needed nutrients needed from good ole Mother Nature but know that some believe otherwise.
Anyway, talked to him more about his buck. He had named him Mega-Tron and the difference between the G5’s is what will keep it from being new KS #1 typical whitetail with a bow….literally just that close.
Anyway….there ya go.
Was it one of those city bucks on the outskirts of Hutchinson? Couple big ones shot there, including one that made North American Whitetail some years back.
Few bucks worth of DDG’s baked into tub and marked up 30x is all it took.
Thanks for the update crested. I've never heard of the stuff, but I don't know much about deer feeds. I know some about cattle which is why I asked... because I didn't recognize the block as a cattle product and got curious.
Is today the day bestill gets un-grounded from BS? Probably call it a "fast". Does that mean crested is going finish his season?
Dude threatened to call me Patty but he is grounded from Bowsite… between that and the delayed reveal you all keep asking about and he’s anxiously awaiting…. What a deal
Guys there is enough fighting to take our sport away from outside without tearing each other apart stop the teenage drama bs. This is just like broad heads opinions everyone has one. Let’s work with each other and congratulate a great shot. Hardest 2 things getting in to position to harvest a deer like this and finding him. Congratulations to a great ks giant!
I was around 7th and 8th grade girls for a lot of years in my life, so feel somewhat qualified to speak to “teenage drama”.
A lot of teenagers try and find a way to get out of work and create drama when forced to do so.
45 years…just to let you know we ain’t fighting. We just having fun.
First of all it was a bet…didn’t get grounded from nothing. All y’all get jealous cause y’all don’t see no panty line whip marks on my backside. Not looking but I’m pretty sure Crested has em. I know he got whipped hard for hunting on New Years Eve. That’s why it’s taking so long to post his hunts…he’s having to nurse and put salve on em.
Now come on “Patrick” you know if you happened to get weak in the future Patty wouldn’t be too bad of a name. I mean it’s a little masculine sounding and I can see some hair in it:?)
Just a little on the serious side though. On the mineral thing….I couldn’t make sense of that coming from you unless it was just a brain fart.
crestedbutte's Link
When did “they” get their own category?
Never been a fan of Buck Masters and the scoring system.
Interesting…. Wonder what the Kansas record typical killed with a xbow scores?
I think it only ranks #1 by the Buckmasters scoring method. It may get listed in Boone and Crockett. Article is good ammo to ban cellular trail cams on private during season.
I think it’s equally good ammo to ban xbows.
“If I’d known I was going to get an eight-yard shot at that buck, I’d have brought my compound,” he says. “But I wasn’t going to chance messing up that incredible opportunity for the buck of a lifetime, so I used my crossbow.”
Do you have to pay to enter your animal ?