Hochul vetoes Holiday opt out
New York
Sad as this is nothing more than a gimmick to sell more licenses and really causes more conflict than anything else. Follow the $$$$$
https://www.newyorkupstate.com/outdoors/2022/12/gov-hochul-vetos-bill-allowing-upstate-ny-counties-to-ban-holiday-hunt.html
"Simmons said the authority to manage the state’s wildlife should remain with the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) and its “trained and experienced biologists and technicians.”"
I think this is the right move. DEC is charged with management of the deer herd. Whether they do a good or poor job to allow counties the ability to manage by committee takes the responsibility away from the DEC.
I'm a fan of the holiday hunt. This was actually a good move on Hochul's part in my opinion.
I would agree if it was indeed with the professional field biologists in the DEC, but as someone that worked there for 32 years I can tell your the politicians have the final call. If it were truly a primative season, no inlines, no crossbows I might support it, but the conflict with other winter sports after an almost 3 month deer season doesn’t bode well for hunters. If politicians must make the call, I prefer local ones to do it. Like so many issues, I may be on the wrong side, but let’s not kid ourselves that DEC professionals are making this call. Like the September season, the Columbus Day youth hunt and the crossbow this is strictly about license sales and $$$.
This was a very tricky move by the Legislature and I don't think the Governor realized what she did when she vetoed it, but it was the proper action. Legislatures have no business getting involved in this area.
For those who did not read the law before commenting, it is shown below. Note that it would have given the counties the ability to restrict "hunting", as in all hunting, not just big game, during the holiday season. No squirrel, rabbit, grouse, coyote, fox, etc. I don't think for a second that they didn't know this when they wrote the law - sneaky it was.
The vetoed law read "Notwithstanding any provision of this chapter, any county, by resolution or local law, may prohibit any hunting during the seven-day special late bow, special long bow and muzzle loader season that has been adopted for implementation by the department from December twenty-sixth to January first in the southern zone."
You must be a lawyer to decipher that "word salad".
Shawlerbrook, you are 110% correct. All about the money and nothing else.
Erict, if you are correct about the vague language doing more than just allowing counties to opt out of the holiday deer hunt, then I totally agree. That is the problem when you have people writing laws about subjects they are ignorant about. Al, almost everything the state does now is either about money or being woke.
Could the snowmobile lobby be pushing this ? because the trails don’t open until big game season closes. The snowmobile industry generates 85 million $ annually in Lewis County so the quicker the trails open the faster the money rolls in.
Remember, this is mostly about the SOUTHERN ZONE "holiday seasons". Lewis County would not be limited regardless of which way this went. The veto was likely the result of a very effective snowmobile lobby. Trails can open at any time, but need snow and landowner permission to do so. Snowmobilers lobby claim is that the extended season prevents them from doing traditional last minute trail maint (downed trees) and final signage because some, but not all, landowners may be hunting or have hunters on the property. (They do much of this work before deer season opens). It would be a complete cluster for the snowmobile clubs to coordinate. Additionally, some, but not all, landowners may or may not grant access to their property for snowmobiling during the extended season. Clubs are generally well organized and the general rule is a trail is either completely open or closed, no "partials". They have come a long way from days of old and I think they do a good job keeping the peace with most. I don't partake, but I'm sure I'd feel different if I had a $10,000+ snowmobile with only a few weeks to use it, or a business that benefits from snowmobile traffic. I think in most years this would be a smaller issue, but there was enough snow on the ground in some parts of the Southern Zone for December snowmobiling. In the end, I suspect the snowmobilers would contribute much more to the economy than the small number of "holiday season" deer hunters.
Erict, doesn’t the veto go against the snowmobile lobby as it does not allow counties to opt out ? I don’t and have never owned a snowmobile, but I do think a deer season that starts in September in some places and October 1 in the south doesn’t need another 6 days at the end of December when the deer are stressed and some bucks are dropping antlers. But like I said, it’s only my opinion. I hunt my own land and have a state snowmobile trail on part and had the discussion with the local club and can see their side.
A good point you have SB. From their association website they were clearly against the holiday season last year. It may be easier for them to fight to have the entire season overturned than to have to deal with a hodgepodge of adjoining counties where one is open and one is closed. The "holiday deer seasons" are established by REGULATION, not LAW, so the DEC could, in theory, easily do away with the holiday season with the stroke of a pen. I really don't believe that the few hunters participating in this hunt cause any measurable stress. The statistics on antlerless buck take during this season is something that can be requested.
You may be correct on the confusion of letting each individual county decide . I just don’t think the holiday season is worth the conflict with other groups for the few hunters that participate. Cross country skiers, snowmobiles, hikers, etc. like you said the DEC in theory sets it, but these things come directly from the Governor’s office. Been like that forever .
Ralph, my point of view from the initial proposal was that of yours. Why extend a season, on an already stressed herd, and this is without EHD, and early snowfalls? It made no sense from any standpoint. And yes, the snowmobile enthusiasts were upset with it as well, and rightfully so. Like you said, it comes from the Executive chamber.
Al, you know the story. I worked with a lot of very dedicated wildlife biologists and technicians at the DEC for 32 years and their opinions are not listened too just like ours. The ones that get promoted to policy decisions in Albany are the ones that don’t rock the boat and trumpet the company line.
100%. So sad. The animals lose, we lose, only the coffers are happy.
I support the holiday season, but others don't - everyone has an opinion. I just don't understand the opposition and interested in civil debate. Please convince me how a few extra hunters afield during this holiday season is going to create measurable "stress" on the deer herd, or deer populations, in the Southern Zone. Does anyone really believe that more than a handful of extra licenses are sold just because of this season? For background, read the link, page 2 - from the 2021 NYS Register. It provides facts on how this season came to be and summarizes comments from the public prior to its enactment. Expect them to review this regulation in 2024, after which some meaningful statistics may be available.
Debate always civil here. Don’t think there’s an absolute right or wrong here but just look at the expansion of the deer seasons in the last 20 years . We added a September season in some areas, bow season went from 10/15 to 10/1, we added a Columbus weekend youth gun hunt, a crossbow season and expanded the late muzzleloader season. This all happened at the same time as many more DMP and DMAP permits and EHD in some areas. Many of these first changes only led to strife amongst hunters with different interests, but this latest season also draws consternation from winter sports enthusiasts. In many places , deep snow yards up deer and after a long mating season any added stress is not good. Years ago in Washington County there was an uproar over some late season muzzleloader hunting in deep snow where deer were yarded. If like you say, the number of hunters using this season is small, then is it worth creating enemies and adding any additional stress on the herd, even if small. Just my 2 cents and probably worth every penny. ?? I also left out the expanded amount of tags issued, their usage and the transfer of DMP’s.
Public commentary, hunter input, biologists recommendations mean absolutely nothing to the Albany suits in charge. This is THE worst managed state for deer hunting, where it could be a destination for it. The quality has been declining for decades, while opportunities, seasons, and DMP's have been expanded upon. The DEC has denied a year round coyote season, has done nothing of merit about EHD for 2 years now, and has shown no signs of doing anything in the future. They could've at least stopped the issuance of DMP's for those WMU's. The only bright star is the aggressive stance they have used on CWD. While I am all for hunting days afield, I also am a steward of the land, and a conservationist. There is no sound argument for extending a season, with potential impactful, deep snow, on a herd that has been hunted for 3 months or more. Even one hunter upon a herd of yarded up deer, in deep snow, can cause undo stress on those deer there. The energy that they will expel, unnecessarily, is unjustified. This is my opinion, which I base upon deer biology and how the Albany swamp thinks.
The herd here in 9h where I hunt is in need of better management yet locals with 2,3 deer in freezer are still hunting an already depleted population... I could never understand their philosophy... be like emptying store shelves and hoarding.
Scentman, I have the same thing happening here. It’s the DEC( controlled by the Executive Chamber) that is supposed to be regulating against game hogs . I have out of state neighbors that use these seasons just to shoot doe and then look to give them away( and not pay for butchering for the Donation Programs). They are not even looking to hoard, just to shoot and kill.
I have to admit that here where I hunt and have lived for much of my life the one detriment to our heard is over killing by the very people that live here also.
A family of four needs no more then 2 deer in freezer till next season... some yrs. they had to throw venison away do to power failures where their freezers thawed and spoiled meat. Your point that non residents just come to shoot and kill is disturbing to me as I would never drop any animal unless I was to use it for table fare.
You are correct, it’s not just people from out of town, but at least next to me, that’s the case. These days, with all the help there is available, there is no reason to exploit wild game populations.
No doe tags in my unit (6k) for nonresidents, and really hard for residents to draw unless they are landowners. I get a doe tag every year but I haven't shot a doe in probably 8 years. There's just not enough deer to justify it. Especially since I can kill 3 does in Ohio and that takes about an hour.
Unfortunately at least down here, all your tags can be used on antlerless deer during the muzzleloader season. Pat, when I hunted 6K back in the 90’s you could shoot anything during the early muzzleloader season.
Does it affect the fawns shooting the doe this late in the season? I have a doe with two button buck's but don't want to hurt their survival for the winter by taking their teacher. Damn, I'm getting too soft for this in my old age;0)
On topic – the DEC apparently fought this, just as they did when the City of Ithaca tried to prohibit hunting on the part of Cayuga Lake within city limits, and several attempts to “ban” trapping and certain hunting in Nassau and Suffolk counties. That was a good thing – these decisions must stay with the DEC. That does not mean you have to agree with the decisions, just who makes them.
Straying off topic - some interesting comments so far.
“Even one hunter upon a herd of yarded up deer, in deep snow, can cause undo stress on those deer there. The energy that they will expel, unnecessarily, is unjustified.” – I remain unconvinced that even in the worst deer yards in the Northern Zone that this season would have any measurable effect. This stress just doesn’t apply to most areas of the Southern Zone most years. Regardless, if this stress is truly detrimental, should we be banning small game hunting, target shooting, hiking, cross country skiing, snowmobiling, and any other activities in areas where deer yard up for the winter? Surely, they cause stress as well. The DEC always has the option to initiate emergency season closures if they need to – they do it frequently with commercial fisheries on Long Island.
As for EHD – there were much smaller EHD kills this year than last. EHD tends to be extremely localized, so is it worth penalizing everyone in a particular WMU just because one farm reported 20 EHD kills? Even in the worst affected areas, I don’t think any WMU suffered a significant population loss due strictly to EHD. The worst county in NY in 2022, Dutchess, reported 67 suspected EHD kills, with 2 confirmed. In 2021, Ulster had 549 suspected, 10 confirmed. Should DEC consider “containment zones” to limit deer harvests like they did with CWD?
As for the Albany swamp. The DEC continues to be overtaken by those educated at liberal institutions of higher learning. They are typically loyal to the bosses and afraid to speak up. The Cuomo administration basically forced every agency to run every decision by them before it would be “approved” or “denied”. Making matters worse, the NYS Conservation Council used to be a very strong sportsman’s voice in Albany. Unfortunately, it seems to be barely running and on its last legs. Lastly, any new LAWS or changes to LAWS require involvement of the NYS Legislature. Much of these LAWs are run through the EnCon Committee before moving forward. Take a good look at who the Chair of the EnCon Committee is and her bio (click the LINK and then her name). She has a powerful position. Do you think we stand a chance of getting cable restraints for trapping, or suppressors for hunting or any other pro-hunting bills through?
I read elsewhere here that bears and coyotes are about 50/50 in predation on fawns. I read where some want a year-round coyote season. If bears cause as much predation as coyotes, are you calling for a year round bear season too? I don’t see the DEC ever explaining why a furbearer species should be hunted/trapped outside of when pelts have at least some value.
Lastly, someone commented on the “quality” of deer hunting in NY has declined for decades. Seasons and season lengths have increased, youth opportunities increased, rifles now allowed in most of Southern Zone where they were historically not allowed, public land hunting access has remained largely unchanged, and probably increased, most hunters can easily get a permit to shoot an antlerless deer if they want, many hunters can get tags to take 2 buck/year, hunting hours expanded by 1 hour/day recently, blaze orange and elevated hunting stand safety awareness has greatly reduced incidents, antler restrictions implemented in areas that wanted it, “food plots” (many of which are technically illegal) allowed. I’m not sure what more some of you want, maybe statewide 8-point, 150” antler restrictions during the 4 month long archery season (and 5 day gun season)?
Fire away – it’s winter, a good time to hash ideas out.
Something not addressed in the well thought out discussion above was the conflict and bad feelings that this holiday season has had with other outdoor winter sports users( snowmobile, cross country skiing, hiking, small game hunting,etc.). The deer season starts in September in a few of these areas and on October 1 for all the southern tier( bow). You then have a 3 day firearm youth hunt Columbus Day, a 3 week rifle season and then another 9 days of muzzleloader. Do we really need another 6 days , especially if like said, very few participate ? We can agree to disagree, but I just don’t see the benefits. And I own and hunt my own land .
At least this season for now , most all snowmobile trails are closed anyway, due to lack of snow. But overall the snowmobile trail system in NY is subject to the whims of private landowners, who receive nothing by opening there land except for a possible lawsuit when some snowmobiler cracks up on their land. So I don’t see how anyone in Albany can mandate anything about that. And please don’t tell me landowners are covered by snowmobile club ins.. A million $ policy doesn’t go far.
Snowmobile industry brings in 85 million $ in Lewis County annually, while landowners get squat , but higher tax bill each year. I use to let the main trail go through 2 different properties I own. Shut them down years ago, and have never regretted it. No more beer cans and other trash, trees run over, and logging road damage from groomers driving the frost into the roads.
I personally have enjoyed the late season including the Holiday. Mainly because I am off from work that week. A lot depends on where you live but where I am in WNY there are more than enough deer to go around. Our winters have been so mild the last few years (other than the Buffalo area lake effect) that there hasn't been much if any early snowmobiling. I don't buy the argument that it sells licenses. It may a handful for people coming home for the Holidays but most people have their tags by then. Speaking of tags between my tags, consigned tags, DMPs, leftover DMPs and DMAPs I have had as many as 11 tags in a season. I could probably hunt a few other places with more DMAPS as well. Have never come close to filling them all.
Does NY deer management need a revamp? Probably. But speaking for myself I think the hunting at least in the WNY is better than it has ever been. I see and have killed more 2 and 3 year old deer in the last 10 years than all of the previous years combined and the guys I hunt with have as well. The number of real slammers I see being killed in NY is night and day over what it was years ago. I see a lot of deer in general although probably not the numbers of does I saw back in the 80s when it wasn't uncommon on opening day to see 20+ does and no bucks or maybe a couple 1.5 year olds. I think that is as much due to hunting style changes than the number of doe tags although I am sure that has an impact. Having said that I would opt for a more balanced herd than seeing more deer any day.
