It's Official, the UBP is a Crossbow Org
Pennsylvania
See how many join to support the organization that fought so hard to expand BOWhunting opportunities in PA. Nah, they'll just ride the coattails...
This life member is will be notifying the UBP secretary to remove any past mentions of my name and my membership types from this once proud and fruitful organization files.
I was notified of the UBP post on the Facebook Crossbow page.
I've been contemplating a run for UBP president. Stuff like this is really tempting me. If I run, it would be on a platform of keeping the organization a hand held, hand drawn organization. If making any major changes, like supporting crossbows, that the membership be polled on matters. That the minutes of each meeting be published in the news letter.
Right now it seems to me that UBP administration is pushing for more crossbow members than handheld members.
Who will support the hand held, hand drawn bowhunter if needed?
Respectfully Ed Rogalski
Does anyone have or seen a picture of Mr Daub with a deer he had killed with a bow and arrow? Can’t find one on the Interweb.
PA Game Comm can rule what they what about what's legal for archery season. UBP should be a hand drawn, held bow organization.
Thanks for the information Bob.
I figured this would be the way it would go but it's a bummer to actually see it 100% confirmed.
This is the only organization I have ever joined as a "Life Member" because I thought the leadership would ALWAYS support the cause of "hand drawn in the presence of game" criteria for bowhunting. I guess it was a mistake to assume anything. Having been a board member during the xbow fight, and realizing the problems of this organization internally have gone on for years, I still never expected it to stoop so low. I have tried to think of another organization that flipped its mission statement 180 on its core membership but am unable to do so. Does anyone know of a precedent and if any actions were taken by its long term members? I for one, am disgusted but not surprised.
Jim, your'e welcome. It's sad that you had to see confirmation on a public forum. That's what happens when there's no transparancy.
Dale, I hope to find this out about the vote. I'll be sending an email to the UBP office asking for the last 2 years of the minutes of all meetings and 2 years of the treasurer reports.
The annual meeting will be Sunday January 15th at 10am at C.J. Hummels Restaurant in Lenhartsville(near Cabelas) if anyone is interested..................all UBP members are welcome to attend.
Ed, I'd vote for you. I think many others would too.
Folks...... I’m tired. No more meetings for me. In thinking about removing myself from the rolls of the UBP, I most likely will, by accepting membership of the Xbow folks, it is the end of an era- not just bow hunters, but for the most successful, pro wildlife, pro deer, pro BOW HUNTER sportsman’s group in this states history. BAR NONE!
Ya know the legislative sides of a certain govt committees wanted to rid the state of the UBP, due to our successes, hence the full time flo orange attempt for all bow hunters.
I got pizza to eat...
I will only comment on this once, as I too am growing quite tired of what this subject has become. As a life member and also a staunch anti-xbow inclusion guy, and being one of those hated vertical people, I feel like maybe the UBP did not either listen to us or maybe our leadership has changed so drastically that some of the BOD lost their identity. However, I may feel about what was posted here today, I am not going to renounce my membership over a Facebook post or double postings on two different forums like Bob. What I intend to do instead of crying on a public forum like a 5 year old, I think I will get to the next membership meeting to find out the facts. Ask questions in person and see for myself what the next chapter will be. If in fact our mission statement is that much different and this is the path, then I will voice my opposition in person to our BOD and our new President. Only then can I decide to forgo the UBP, not whine for acceptance on multiple forums. For all the good the UBP has done and all the benefits I have enjoyed over the past 30 years, and the strides the made for all bowhunters in Pa I will at least do that much and show up. They were a thorn in the side of the PGC and the aged crony's elite for years, kudos to them but times change, baby boomers who propped this org up are retiring, dying and that is the way of it and all orgs that came before and after it. I will not offer any further comment to this thread as heated as this is, I will defer until the meeting. Look me up if you attend, I would like to meet some of you in person, enjoy the rest of the seasons and enjoy every minute, they pass faster every year! Jr.
Lastly, after dealing with Ed on some other things, he would not get my vote to run the UBP but that is just me.
I'm not sure what Bowhunting5c is talking about in this statement. "Lastly, after dealing with Ed on some other things, he would not get my vote to run the UBP but that is just me" I don't think I've ever met him. Probably chatted with him here on bowsite. I'm kinda wondering if he's got me mix up with someone else???? ED
Looked at other threads, yes I have chatted with Bowhunting5c on the xbows, but for the life of me, I don't know what this other stuff is. Ed
I don’t do Facebook Bob, but from what you posted I see nothing about a change in mission statement. All I see is an invitation to join UBP. This is nothing new.
I will be at the annual meeting next Sunday and I hope to see you all there. If you REALLY have a problem with the direction this organization is headed, then I would expect you to be there. It’s really easy to sit back and criticize an organization.................but it takes some level of commitment to try to make changes.
There are a lot of good programs going on in our organization and I would hate to see them suffer because of one controversial issue! We just had our best year of the 5C Hunt (donated 15 deer to HSH) and next Saturday the DHP guys are having their annual Disabled Hunter Goose Hunt! Let’s not forget all the GOOD the UBP does.................
Perry, Will this be available as a zoom meeting? If it is, I want the link sent to me. Also, will I be able to ask the board members questions? Will I also be able to ask the legislative director questions?
I cannot go to the meeting because of health reasons otherwise I would be there. I appreciate Bob posting this and I don't see it as whining because it's factual. Actually, complaining about how Bob is dealing with this time and again seems to be more like whining than what he has done.
It is a true slap in the face to bowhunters, putting their unique needs and wants secondary to getting members. I'm not going to leave the organization until i see how this plays out and, honestly they wouldn't miss the few of us that would leave because our opinions differ from where they are looking to take the organiation.
The UBP has done may good things not only to enhance bowhunter's hunting opportunities but to provide much needed social interaction. But most of those things were started prior to the current leadership team.
I would vote for Ed in a heartbeat if he decides to run. I do think the organization needs leadership that can find ways to move ahead without giving up on the original goals and intent of the organization.
Not sure if it will be a zoom meeting since it will be in person at C.J. Hummels. Obviously if you attend in person any member can bring up any issues that they wish to discuss.
Why don't they put a survey out to members to see what think.
That's a damn good question Red Lion. We know the answer, they are afraid that the membership will vote against Their agenda.
I know I don't support it. Without the members you would have no organization so why are there just a few making that choice for so many. I think we all deserve a voice.
The UBP Legislative Director's Facebook post has been removed from the crossbow site. Glad I took screenshots.
I don't post here much anymore but I do check in from time to time. Reading some of the concerns I wanted to know the names of the UBP officers that are currently in office, I had to refer to my latest copy of Pennsylvania Bowhunting to find out. When I saw the name Harold Daub as VP, I almost fell out of my chair. This guy has been a thorn in the side of the UBP for the past 15 years. He was an advocate for crossbows way before crossbows were allowed in the regular archery season. Somehow the membership has allowed crossbow proponents to get on the board.
I was just in contact with the UBP office manager and he will be there at the meeting setting up the equipment for Zoom. He said he will get me a link to forward to other members who wish to attend remotely.
Perry, Thanks for that Update' but I have a few Questions. This is not directed to you but the 'Leadership'.
Why is the UBP Leadership not posting that Link on the UBP website, UBP Facebook site, here on Bowsite, any other Social Media site & especially not being sent to all Members of the UBP? They have everyone's email account. Also why not post that ZOOM would be available (& the Info) in the last Newsletter?
They have the capability to poll all members thru many electronic venues & USPS mail. Why not question their members on critical changes to the philosophy of the Org before posting on other sites? The last newsletter could have had the XBow change listed in it. Tomorrow is too late; Cat is out of the Bag. What & why are they hiding behind this silence?
Just realized that the UBP has a 'Social Media Representative' so this should have been an easy procedure to update all venues.
I guess Buck will be accused of whining because of the facts he posted.
Gee almost sounds, like as they say in the business world as a “takeover”.
Thank You Buck for verification of what some of us “dinosaurs” presented earlier:)
You can't let people that are against your principles infiltrate your organization.
Bob, I was digging around my computer files and found a copy of the UBP Bylaws but they were from January 17, 2010. Do you know where I can get an updated copy. I was just reading article VII section 5 and I want to see if any changes have been made to that article.
Buck, I'll have to get on my laptop and see if I have anything different.
There is a crossbow policy on the UBP web sight.
Dale, I sent you a PM. Get back to me when you can. Buck
From: Ursus Hunter 07-Jan-23
Perry, Thanks for that Update' but I have a few Questions. This is not directed to you but the 'Leadership'. Why is the UBP Leadership not posting that Link on the UBP website, UBP Facebook site, here on Bowsite, any other Social Media site & especially not being sent to all Members of the UBP? They have everyone's email account. Also why not post that ZOOM would be available (& the Info) in the last Newsletter?
Bob, they give out the zoom link to any member who requests it. This has been the standard procedure at the past few annual meetings. Don’t think they post it on a public forum, as the annual meeting is supposed to be for members only.
I have to admit that although I have attended the annual meeting like 4 of the last 5 years(missed it last year as I was On the road traveling home before the snow hit), I have not kept up with the “politics” of our organization. I have tended to stay out of it over the years and just do what I can do to help the organization. So I have no idea of Harold Daub’s history in the outdoor community here in PA. I just know he was once involved in the Pa Federation of Sportsman’s Clubs and a few years ago stepped up to be our Legislative Director when we needed someone to fill that position.
That seems to be a problem in our organization ......................hard to get folks to step up and take a leadership position. It seems it is always a challenge to find folks who will run for BOD or President/Vice-President etc....................
But there seems to be no shortage of people who are willing to sit back and criticize those that do step up.
Other than Ed Rogalski, I don’t see a lot of folks willing to step up to the plate so to speak. But I see a lot who would rather heckle from the stands or threaten to take their ball and go home.................
Sorry if this comes off a bit harsh, but I get tired sometimes of hearing all the complaints and people focusing on the negatives when this organization does a whole lot of good!
Nothing about that is posted anywhere!!!
I had a response written but I realized I also had more important things to do. I have to watch the grass grow, even tho it's 41 degrees & dark soon.
Perry, all do respect but these folks that are speaking out are members. They do have a voice. One or two of them may have more active time with the UBP then the current president, Vice president, and some of the board of directors combined. When an organization trys to change what was one of the biggest fights it ever had, you will get members to speak out about it, which is crossbows..
I'm going to try to get as up date with the UBP as I can over the next year. I've chat with many UBP members and member of even the Federation ove the last few months and especially the last week or two. But as many know I started researching this back in late 2021. Ed
Bob- any member that wants a zoom link to the meeting just needs to contact Patrick in the UBP office. That’s how it’s been for several years now.............I know because I have attended the meeting in person and have seen those who have joined by zoom. Unfortunately I can only remember seeing one or 2 members at the most, and the rest were all officers or directors.
Ed- I realize these guys are members and some of them have contributed a lot in the past. The problem is that in recent years we have had trouble filling positions and the same people seem to be doing most of the work. We need to get more folks involved .......................might I suggest to those who don’t agree with the folks who are stepping up......................then run for a position yourself! ;-)
Rut, You can divert attention from the problem all you want but it doesn't change the fact that a change in direction of the UBP is at hand and despite your great side projects such as the 5C hunt, it is an issue for long time members. Volunteers has always been an issue and always will be but throwing that against a change in mission is not a viable answer. I strongly believe that an organization that has as many Life Members and General Members as the UBP can not change its mission without a vote by membership BEFORE the change. I for one will continue to burden the UBP with my Life membership and any "old" Director will know of what I speak.
Bob McArthur, No need to look for those bylaws. I found out last night that the last time they were updated was in 2017 and only minor changes were made from the ones I have from 2010.
Chris, I’m not trying to divert attention................I just don’t want to see “the baby thrown out with the bath water!”
I have the zoom link, so any member that would like me to forward it just send me an e-mail at [email protected]
Perry, it's not about the Link. It's about the actions of the UBP leadership. Reread Griz's comments, they CANNOT just change the Mission without a vote from the Members. But they did exactly that when Daub posted that statement on the Crossbow site. They knew a meeting was upcoming but chose to ignore the Members & the Mission of the UBP.
I wholeheartedly agree & stand firm with Chris's statement; "I for one will continue to burden the UBP with my Life membership and any "old" Director will know of what I speak."
I for one, feel deceived. I and many others spent countless hours at shoots and shows trying to sign up members and get the word out. I was then asked to be a Director and devoted myself even deeper. At the very beginning I knew the UBP was a good fit for me as it shared the same archery roots, so I joined as a Life Member. I resigned from the Board when it became apparent that certain executive members at that time felt the Board was just a necesary evil and did not need to be consulted or listened to when it came to making decisions but they still maintained the core mission of protecting "hand drawn in the presence of game" criteria. Now it appears it is more about saving the organization and dumping any moral high ground we once had at the expense of its long time members. The fact that this is even being discussed tells me that the org, as we knew it, is over. You can still have your "feel good" social events but the real heartbeat of an organization is in its mission and its devotion to the members who helped define it. To change that now only signals full and complete surrender.
Well, this is a prime example of why I never had the desire to run for a leadership position in the UBP. I’ll do as much as I can for the organization on a grass roots level, but I will not get drawn into the “politics” of it...............................
I sincerely hope this all can be hashed out at the meeting on Sunday.....................I would hate to see this once great organization go up in flames! : (
Perry, The key is in the "ONCE great organization". Your words, not mine.
And Chris- I take issue with your label of "feel good social events".................................I think anyone who has ever participated in the 5C Hunt or a DHP hunt or event would know that they are MUCH more than that!
Rut, as an outsider looking in, thank you for what you do.
Perry, I know you have done a ton for the betterment of the UBP.. I always called you the UBP social director. The stuff you have worked on has made for many of enjoyable events and I also would like to thank you.
How hard would it of been to just poll the membership on this major change in policy and to my understand it was suggested and to my understand shot down by the President and Vice President , not sure about if or who on the board may of said no.
I think everyone needs to step back for a few days on posting so we don't get pissed off at one another. We don't need that. I also highly recommend coming or getting a link for the UBP meeting coming this Sunday. You don't have to speak at the meet, just observe. It's your organization try to get updated on the inner workings. Ed
Thanks guys, but it’s not about me or anything I have done! It’s about like minded individuals coming together for the betterment of the local, archery and sportsmen’s communities. Together we have done a lot of good and I hope that continues! I have met a LOT of good people over the years working with and for the UBP and a lot of them have become my very best friends!
And LOL! Ed.........I will take that title of “social director” and wear it with honor! : )
I’m gonna take your advice and take a breath and leave this alone for awhile and save my thoughts for the upcoming meeting on Sunday. I hope to see many of you there!(in person or by zoom)
And if anybody needs the link, again- just shoot me an e-mail at [email protected]
Griz, PM coming your way,
Well, what an informative newsletter. I am underwhelmed
All of this would have been avoided if there were transparency. That was a mistake. Let's hear from the membership moving forward and move on.
From: Metikki 04-Jan-23
Does anyone have or seen a picture of Mr Daub with a deer he had killed with a bow and arrow? Can’t find one on the Interweb.
Here you go Dale:
Thanks for making those available Perry. ~(8o)
Always glad to help Dale! ;-)
I’m so glad I dropped my life membership a few years ago! This IS NOT THE SAME Organization!
Dave, that is not true. We have recently had a rough patch and we will be back stronger than ever.
I was in it for 20 years. I was a Rep Regent 2 Director and a Board Member. In that time and I seen it going down for years.
"It's Official, the UBP is a Crossbow Org" I've been a UBP Life Member for many years and it doesn't surprise me at all.
I was a Life member and I dropped it because it’s not any good anymore and because of some of the members!
Dropping out just fuels those who want to take UBP in another direction
The UBP has taken many different directions thru the years. I started back in 1986 with this organization and there were always members trying to steer the UBP...One of my favorites was when certain officers wanted the PGC to support using an atlatl for deer. How many here remember that oldie but goodie... We lost a good chunk of members over that issue. I was a recent life member and county rep when that happened...So why are there people upset over the ctossbow invite without the general membership knowing about it. I agree with Woody...if you drop out then you have no voice.
"I agree with Woody...if you drop out then you have no voice."
Apparently if you're a member you don't have a voice either.
Here are some things I know for sure. In the 1990s, The UBP thwarted a big attempt to legalize crossbows. We signed up 3000 new members at shows that winter and even printed out a special Alert issue of PA Bowhunting with a flourescent orange cover on the subject. We had over 4000 members before that winter. A couple years later and we were back down to the 4000 plus members we started with. Where did those people go? I was a new member then. And 15 or so years later, by government decree, and much protest from us, the PGC told us they were legal.
I was the office manager when the Atlatal issue came up (years later) and would argue with Ken that we lost members over that issue. (Believe me, I kept my eye on the trend daily for 12 years.) I had a conversation with the guy leading the charge on the high tech spear throwing device and there were only about 150 people in the state who wanted it. I always wondered why anybody who used tradbows and compounds would be opposed to an older weapon.
For any of you that have opened and read the latest UBP monthly newsletter you will see that Orion and I are the election committee. We started getting e-mails almost immediately from people interested in helping over the weekend. 2 open board positions have been temporarily filled by members you probably know from bowsite who have stepped up. I agree with Woody and Ken.
Well I think the UBP should change the name to (The United Crossbow Hunters)! Oh by the way I have a voice ! I spent 20 years in that organization and a lot of time working for it! I would be a member if they would not be doing what they are doing!
Dave, thanks for your service with the UBP. But, that's anything but accurate.
Has anyone looked into "Bowhunters United"? They seem legit and are a national org.
Just googled it. No statement about crossbows. One of the pictures on their website shows a young woman holding a crossbow.
Found them on instagram. Is there a website?
https://bowhuntersunited.com/ They seem to be "all inclusive" but more to the informational side with xbows. Some stuff on how to do it the right way. Started by the ATA so I'm sure they are included. What I like is the national presence. At least they are upfront about it and seem to be more focused on the "hunt" than the equipment. Time will tell more about them but I don't plan on joining until I see more of them. I heard they have a really nice booth at the Outdoor show and were pretty crowded.
National organizations are fine but I see them as more fraternal and less capable of having influence on the state level. It reminds me of how PBS was trying to help during the crossbow battle but didn’t really have a presence in our state or connections with legislators like the UBP did. Of course, on some of the major issues, it didn’t matter in the end because it seems clear that no state organization can match the dollars that manufacturers will throw to legislators. But having that presence did help extending the bow season and other gains Bowhunters have seen.
Spot on Phil. At least with a state organization, you pretty much know that your money is staying locally in the state where it can do the most good. With the national orgs., you have no idea who's pocket it's going into.
I spoke with folks in the Bowhunters United booth at Harrisburg today. They are not a lobby organization and will not be involved in state game laws. What they do is more coordination among state’s entities. They gather information on seasons and weapons from each state and share that information with with the game departments from all other states to raise awareness about what works or doesn’t work.
They are an offshoot of ATA and their position is the air bow is not an archery weapon.
From: horsethief5106-Feb-23
For any of you that have opened and read the latest UBP monthly newsletter you will see that Orion and I are the election committee. We started getting e-mails almost immediately from people interested in helping over the weekend. 2 open board positions have been temporarily filled by members you probably know from bowsite who have stepped up. I agree with Woody and Ken.
I'm glad to hear that Art!
Not sure who was manning the booth yesterday, in the afternoon, but he was certainly pro-crossbow.
When I was there on Tuesday Larry Stewart was there and we had a lively discussion about crossbows. I understand what he was trying to tell me just didn't agree with all of his reasoning. But we did agree that it should be up to the membership to decide where the organization goes. Then it's up to us to decide what role we want to play in that organization.
Hello everyone. I would of put this under the thread "Whats the limit" but that thread is locked. :(
Anyway I know I mentioned about the air bow that now shoots 1000fps, but didn't chat about the bow as it's called that looks just like a old break open single shot, shotgun. You load the arrow, crack it open, load what I guess is a blank 357 shell, close it up aim with you 15 power scope, pull the hammer back and pull the trigger and off goes your arrow. It was at the Harrisburg show, anyone see it? Also theirs a new xbow out, It actually has a magazine you load, that holds 5 bolts. After you shoot it, you bend the sock somehow, which cocks it and loads a bolt onto the rail. Says 5 shots in under 4 seconds. So lets talk about semis auto's guns for deer rifle season,, WAIT lets not!! :) Anyway,,, *WHATS THE LIMIT*.
The last one I think (?) is legal here in Pa.
I looked at the CVA booth. They have a bow/rifle that uses a .27 caliber blank to shoot an arrow out of what is similar to a muzzleloader. It shoots something like 485 fps. They acknowledge it isn’t an archery weapon.
The true air bows use compressed air and need to be recharged after five or so shots. I didn’t get to see any of them at the show.
I would oppose any hunting implement in archery season that propels an arrow with something other than energy stored in limbs and cams. That would include springs, pistons, air, explosive charges, etc............. That is my limit.
For firearms season, I would not oppose their use.
Yeah..........but the UBP needs to pay its bills and needs new members so............... Just saying. LOL.
I agree with Gene. Man, this is getting scary! ;-)
The problem with this "technology creep" is that these devices will not sell many if only included in rifle season. Some marketing genius will get the idea "Hey, if we can get these included in archery season since it shoots an arrow, we will sell a lot more of them." Then the manufacturer puts money towards lobbying for including their contraption in archery season and WALA! (Not that this has happened before)
What Vonfoust says is absolutely dead on but they don't need a marketing genious to drive it. They've already done it before so know the ropes. In PA the Xbow companies hit up the softest targets they could find, Bob Godshall comes to mind, and sent them on trips. Godshall was soft because he hated archery based on a one time dead deer found by his brother in the 50's. They also started pushing them into TV shows and now the Airbow and other junk are on those same shows. The High Road with Keith Warren is using Airbows on almost every show and so are others. Once they establish themselves, which they already have, they will start pushing for inclusion into archery seasons by working state agencies to include them as archery equipment. If that happens then groups like some of the current UBP leadership and Reps, who are already trying to push xbows, will accept them to maintain their precious fraternities despite not being what the org is about at all. We already have this happening and worse yet, it is made to sound acceptable by some. I have lots more I could say but I find the acceptance of some weapons, just because the PGC says it is legal, to be disgusting. "Science" along with data and facts, can be twisted into anything to push a cause.
Like Gene said......................there's a big difference between crossbows and these new gadgets that propel and "arrow!" If it has limbs and stores the energy in those limbs to propel the arrow then it can be considered to be a bow. If it uses something else, then it is NOT archery- very simple!
Doesn't matter what we define as archery, it only matters what the legislature/PGC makes a legal implement for "archery season". "Hey Mr/Mrs Representative that doesn't hunt, let's just call it 'bow season' and this here being an 'airbow' and shoots an arrow just like those bows should be included in that." OR "Well, we know we need more deer killed with this many less hunters. This is easier and more effective than a vertical or crossbow for just that purpose." I'm certainly not disagreeing with you Perry. I just see it headed down this path, or just simply change the definition of archery to "anything that shoots an arrow".
Griz, I must say, with all due respect, (what is left of) the current UBP leadership and reps, they are NOT trying to push for xbows. To everybody else, there are (the) 3 top leadership positions open right now and nobody here seems to be stepping up to fill them. All any member has to do is to send a letter of intent in to the office by e-mail, or to me or Ned, by midnight Feb. 15th to run for the offices of President & vice president, plus appointment to the legislative director. If they run unopposed they get appointed. How easy it would be to control the direction of the organization. Imagine.
I hear you, but I think if we use that logical argument we could fight it...................(and have a good chance of winning)
Art, Those three are gone but the push continues at the lower levels. You had better ask some of the county reps what they are out there pushing for and why.
I will certainly take that under advisement. I will be asking people what they think this coming weekend at the show, that's for sure.
Art if you are asking Joe Smo general public, then you should not be asking them. You should be telling them where you stand. UBP members? By all means, ask.
From: Griz 14-Feb-23
Art, Those three are gone but the push continues at the lower levels. You had better ask some of the county reps what they are out there pushing for and why.
WHO are you referring to ..............who are PUSHING for crossbows?!
Rut, I am not going to name names on here. My point is, that the communication channels should be open down the ranks so everyone is clear on the position right now. Just as the membership is divided on the topic, so too might the Rep levels. As Bowbender stated "Not sure who was manning the booth yesterday, in the afternoon, but he was certainly pro-crossbow." People in the booth should remain neutral at this point until a direction is proven out by a member vote. I'm done at this point. I will sit back and see what happens.
Griz,
Actually it was the gentleman that Phil mentioned. Larry Stewart. With all the boiler plate reasons. Shoots an arrow, close range weapon, good for kids and recruitement, yada yada yada... I did ask him how his idea of a close range weapon reconciles with Ravin's "meet your next 100 yard rifle.."
"I did ask him how his idea of a close range weapon reconciles with Ravin's "meet your next 100 yard rifle.."
Probably not a good idea to hang your hat on advertising claims. Kinda like some tire manufacturers that claim 60,000 miles. It all sounds great until you actually only get 35,000 out of them.
Gene....I bet many do hang their hats on that BS. Most newbies don't have a clue. Did you happen to see where Ohio largest percentage of kills by weapon was the crossbow? I'm sure you did. It was posted on the other site.
Really Gene. No, Really? By and large every tire I’ve used since 1990 has met or exceeded their mileage rating. Mostly Bridgestone Duelers and recently on my Jeep and Tacoma Cooper Discovers AT3s. Current set is at 72K miles on a 60K tire. On my third set. Absolutely 100% poor analogy. Guys ARE shooting that far and then some. More often then your much touted yet never produced studies. And now they are pushing 200 yards.
"Gene....I bet many do hang their hats on that BS. Most newbies don't have a clue. Did you happen to see where Ohio largest percentage of kills by weapon was the crossbow? I'm sure you did. It was posted on the other site."
You are correct that there are folks that buy into the BS and take shots they have no business taking. I have never denied that. They learn pretty quickly about the "rifle" claims. Yes, I am aware of the crossbow numbers from Ohio. Archery hunting is hugely popular there among deer hunters. Most deer hunters archery hunt in Ohio and the archery harvest has been a significant percent of the total for quite some time. The archery harvest surpassed general firearms harvest and most use crossbows. That would be why crossbows accounted for most of the harvest.
Bowbender said: "Absolutely 100% poor analogy. Guys ARE shooting that far and then some."
For sure. I haven't denied it. They soon learn that their odds are low in hunting situations. It happens with all weapons and the horrible advertising by Ravin doesn't help.
I guess I need to try Bridgestones............... Of course I did say "some" tire manufacturers, not all.
Gene,
My preference is the Coopers. They have been fantastic tires. Duelers wore well, just not as good as the AT3s
I would like to know why they even advertise that they can shoot a100 yards? And till then don’t say that guys are not shooting that far! IMO
I know a crossbow hunter that sticks the little ground marker flags at 50,75 and 100 yards from his tree stands. He sets up for a 50 yard shot and I asked him about it. His reply was he doesn't have to worry about movement or concealment as much.
Bowbender. I have never tried Coopers. Might have to give them a shot. I have been thoroughly unimpressed with Generals, Goodyears and Michelins as far as tire wear goes. I drive AWD vehicles so maybe that has something to do with it. I have gotten credit towards new tires.
"I would like to know why they even advertise that they can shoot a100 yards? And till then don’t say that guys are not shooting that far! IMO"
Ravin calls their branded broadheads "bullets" too. Their broadheads are made by NAP. I have owned two Ravins and still own one. I have shot two black bears, turkeys, deer and wild hogs with them. My farthest shot at game was a bit over 30 at a wild boar hog in South Carolina. I would feel comfortable shooting to 40-50 in perfect conditions but my over 35 years of archery hunting experience has taught me that taking shots past that in hunting situations will result in significantly decreasing returns. It isn't worth it to me. Using a Ravin doesn't increase my range over the other crossbows I shoot. I am well aware that others shoot further. I just hope that they figure it out and shorten things up some. Heck, out west 60 and farther is common with compounds too. I guess if I ever head west I need to up my game, lol.
Whatever one thinks of their marketing campaign, it is genius. No other crossbow brand has generated more crossbow talk and interest than Ravin has. That goes for those that oppose their use, those that support their use, and those that are new looking to purchase one. When people approach me and ask me about buying a new crossbow, the number one brand they mention is Ravin. The number one brand that people that do not support crossbows mentions is Ravin.
"Probably not a good idea to hang your hat on advertising claims. Kinda like some tire manufacturers that claim 60,000 miles. It all sounds great until you actually only get 35,000 out of them."
I worked at a tire shop in college and I changed a lot of tires that were so bald that you could just about see through them.
The people that run their tires to that point really do believe that because they are advertised as 60,000 mile tires they can go 60,000 miles.
This is the same mentally of crossgun shooters letting it rip at game at 100 yards.
"TV or magazine ads said I can, so I can."
I know this 100% happens and so does everyone else if they are being honest. It will only get worse IMO.
Shooting a stickbow or compound you have to practice, if only to figure out pins. Find out quickly what YOUR actual limitations are. Many crossbows come with a scope already "dialed in". If they say you can shoot 100 who am I to argue?
First, yes folks alot come looking for that advertised 60k or 80k tires. I try to explain about tires not lasting that long, especially in PA. I'm in the auto service industry.
Second, xbow are saying in thier advertisement 200 yds. Heres the link/picture of that said advertisement. Not my words, there's.
From: Griz 15-Feb-23
Rut, I am not going to name names on here. My point is, that the communication channels should be open down the ranks so everyone is clear on the position right now. Just as the membership is divided on the topic, so too might the Rep levels. As Bowbender stated "Not sure who was manning the booth yesterday, in the afternoon, but he was certainly pro-crossbow." People in the booth should remain neutral at this point until a direction is proven out by a member vote. I'm done at this point. I will sit back and see what happens.
Ok- I’m just curious how you define “pushing” crossbows or “Pro-crossbow?”
I think I stated previously that we should stay neutral on crossbows....................
Ten years ago I could put a HHA Optimizer on my Mission MXB400 crossbow and shoot 150 yards if I wanted to with the same accuracy as a Ravin today. The "Jack Plate" on the Ravin is the same old technology that HHA Sports has had for some time. All that has changed is the cringeworthy advertising by Ravin these days. Actually, most crossbows are capable of great accuracy at extreme ranges. The determining factor is the quality of the arrows. Of course, targets don't move. either.....
"I think I stated previously that we should stay neutral on crossbows...................."
Here's the 200 yard capable Ravin Sniper. I mean some experienced guys recommend against shooting that far, but damn nice to know you can. If after that ad, that pic you want to remain neutral, all hope is lost for UBP.
New crossbow hunters with NO bowhunting experience simply believe all the hype. Why wouldn't they?
Exactly right Jeff.
They are guns not bows. I know the battle is lost and I appreciate all you fellas that fought it but that doesn't mean I have to like or support crossguns in archery season.
I don't want to monetarily support an organization that is going to push the "One big tent, kumbaya" rhetoric either.
That does not mean that I don't respect fellas like Perry (Rut Nut). I appreciate his passion and dedication.
Ain't just new bowhunters, Jeff.
When I said about the Advertisement I was thinking about all the new comers . They are going to think that is going to be like a gun!
Bowbender- when I took the PGC Bowhunter Ed class 20+ years ago I was shooting an entry level browning compound bow with energy wheels. When we got to the shooting portion of the class one of the guys in the class was shooting a top of the line Hoyt with Easton ACC arrows and all the accessories. His arrows alone cost almost as much as my whole set up. Unfortunately all that high end technology didn't help him one bit..............................he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and I doubt he ever killed a deer with it. Was really shocking to see!
Rut,
I "hear" what you are saying. However, I wonder if the outcome would have been different had he been able to snug the stock against his shoulder, fingers wrapped around the pistol grip, forearm either locked in a tripod or steadied on a rest, peered thru the 4X scope with lighted reticle, flipped the safety off and squeezed the trigger.
I believe what you say Perry.I used to administer a very easy proficiency test with broadheads.It was painful to watch and many didn't pass.In the early years they got multiple chances and some still couldn't do it.Not many fail it with crossbows which proved to me that there was a huge difference between the ease of use.It isn't just the fact that you don't have to draw in the presence of game,you have to maintain good form with a bow and most people don't practice the form you need in hunting situations.
I know what you’re saying guys, but even with the most technologically advanced equipment you still have to have the know how and woodsmanship to kill a deer with it.
It's not hard to get within 50 yards of a deer on a consistent basis.
Actually, I call bull on the whole thing. Does anyone actually know the kinetic energy of that little bolt at 200 yards? Does it have any juice left after lobbing that projectile 200 yards? And, is it just me or does it sound ridiculous that any advertising would publish that and expect the general public to swallow it? I'd love to hear from the experts on the amount of kinetic energy lost by that distance. It may stick in a foam target, but a kill shot? Bull.
A 35-40lb recurve generates enough energy to put a COC broadhead thru a deer. Something like 25-30 ft-lbs. I’d take an educated guess a bolt retains enough energy at 150-200 yards to do the same.
It’s just mind blowing to know you have the capability to do so. So….we don’t recommend you do it…wink wink
They don’t care about kinetic energy when they buy them ! All they see that I can shoot 100 yards!
John, I got that ad from the raven web site last year. I didn't fabricated it. Ask others here if they saw it.
I seen that ad, the ad I am not disputed, it's the content and the functionality that u call bull on. No way stored energy does not diminish over 200 yards with a smaller projectile and 1/2 the weight of an arrow. Bull
Ok I understand what ur saying.
Ravin says their bolts weight is 400gr, im guessing with out head. So if it leaves the xbow at 500fps. Guess hits target at say 200fps at 200yds. Thats going to be pretty good kinetic energy. Even thoughit it lost 300fps. .
Most crossbow bolts weigh more than arrows that guy's shoot out of their compounds.
Shame, reading about UBP and deciding to join as a trad hunter opposed to xbows but now, I think not. All the rhetoric was BS, eh
So with crossbows legal in archery season, when are percussion and inline muzzleloaders going to be legal in the flintlock season.
My guess is, as soon as a politician says that any firearm loaded thru the barrel is classified as a flintlock. Sound about right guys??
I don't think the PGC needs a politician to get involved. The PGC is all about expanding hunting opportunities. I don't know which group, the commissioners or the PGC executives, has the authority to add existing weapons to the flintlock season but whichever it is if someone gets set on the idea that it would increase hunter participation by including percussion and inlines it's easy to see that happening. Fortunately the PGC has held on to the primitive aspect of flintlocks but that could change as quickly as adding crossbows to archery season happened.
Why not… everything else is
Is Sen. Laughlin heading the PGC committee.
From: Boris 03-Mar-23
So with crossbows legal in archery season, when are percussion and inline muzzleloaders going to be legal in the flintlock season.
As soon as KNIGHT, CVA or one of the other big inline muzzleloader manufacturers decide that they can make a ****-ton of $$$ if they can get them legalized for (what will become) the “LATE MUZZLELOADER” season! ;-)
Personally I do not believe the late flintlock season is in any trouble here in Pa.
Natchez Shooter's Supply now has an "Air Bow Rifle" for $308. I'm more worried about these being considered "archery equipment".
It’s all about the money, if the right people stand to make enough money it will be legalized. When they legalized crossguns in archery season they opened the doors for just about anything. One of these days it won’t be considered archery season anymore, it’ll be one big free for all. Just choose your weapon and go hunt. It’s a damn shame nobody gives two $&!?’$ about preserving the heritage of what once was our archery season. It’s already a lost battle……
Yup a lost battle, and those that supported horizontal bows will be the first to cry when the other seasons start to fall, as predicted.
We don't have a traditional only archery season or a compound bow only season. We have an archery season where many bow types are legal. We also have an existing muzzleloader season where many different ignition types are legal. The flintlock season is a flintlock ignition only muzzleloader season. Comparing the addition of inlines to a flintlock season to crossbows in archery season is off base. A direct comparison would be adding crossbows to a traditional only archery season.
Gene, you know what they mean. Isn't there a canned, high fence put and take pig hunt that needs your undivided attention? Maybe you can explain what the difference is to those stocked piggies ??.
Hey 5C. Not much attention needed for the pig hunt at this point. We are all set up and it should be a great time with some good guys putting some tasty pork in the freezer for the family.
Lucky Montana, today Montana house voted 66 to 30 to not allow xbows to be used.
The minute the state legislature passed the crossbow initiative, the UBP became a crossbow organization, as evidenced by the declining membership. And good for Montana!
Congratulations to Montana. But, I doubt they have been targeted by the manufacturers like pennsylvania was. And I also would fathom their game commission didn't buckle or get bought yet by those same manufacturers. And, furthermore I would also like to know how their legislators stack up against the political finkos pa currently has. But, hey man, 13 years ago the bowhunters of pennsylvania lost. Through no fault of their own, but some of you will continue to bash the UBP for putting up the good fight against an overwhelming enemy that was well funded, well connected and had our pgc bought and paid for. Now, for those of you that want to hold onto a battle 13, 13 years ago, what are you doing now to support the UBP and bowhunting in pa? Are you going to let it die, are you just stuck on the angry troll path of bowsite and huntpa? Or, do you still support bowhunters, bowhunting in pa? I and a lot of others are all ears. What are the options, since your bantering resides on a public messaging board. What say you?
John, are you even paying just a little attention? Do you really think the people you accuse of bashing the UBP are doing it because we lost the crossbow fight?
Bob, my response was attached to the denial of the Montana vote. And the piling on that they are lucky enough to not have to endure it. And Bob, this is a UBP bashing thread. Sorry if that confusion was to much.
Like John suggests..................I am sure Montana was not high on the list of states to target by the Crossbow manufacturers for several reasons. One is that the total # of resident archery hunters is very low. (Think I saw 44,000) Compare that to any of the Northeastern or Midwest states and it pales in comparison. Then add to that the fact that many of the western states have a much lower success rate with archery gear as opposed to rifle................(Montana was 7% of the Total deer harvest for archery) Much lower when compared to the Eastern and Midwest states. So not surprised that Montana won the “battle”
Wrong, John. It's not a UBP bashing thread. I started this thread to show what the UBP Leadership was doing without the General Membership's knowledge. Too bad some in the UBP got butt-hurt from me exposing them for what they were doing.
The organization supports the use of crossbows by able bodied hunters. The organization is going to remove to remove the compound bow and the and the traditional bows from their official logo. They are a bow hunting organization, right?
John, everytime some one posts it dont mean its an attack on the UBP. Was it the post that xbows was shot down or the phrase "lucky Montana" that make you feel it's a attack??
You just can’t let it go, can you Bob?! It was explained to you many times, but you insist it’s a just a big conspiracy to promote crossbows.........................
Perry, Lord knows Bob doesn’t need anyone to speak for him but….
There is no conspiracy. To some it’s more a question of whether the UBP is committed to following the principles that the organization was created on or tossing them aside in favor of catering to crossbow shooters just for the sake of gaining more members. It’s that simple.
John, I don’t believe anyone is bashing the UBP over crossbows being allowed in bow hunting season. There never was a realistic chance of preventing it and I know good people, some of them my friends, fought hard in a losing cause. Nobody holds any ill will to their efforts. The discussion being held now is where does the UBP go from here and how do they go about getting there.
Perry's butt-hurt again because I turned his meme around on him. If you're gonna dish it out, you gotta be able to take it when it comes back on you.
LOL! Yeah, YOU GOT ME Bob! ;-)
I’m just saying it appears some folks here will just never accept a rational explanation......................If it doesn’t fit their pre-conceived notions and conspiracy theories.......................
"Perry, Lord knows Bob doesn’t need anyone to speak for him but…. There is no conspiracy. To some it’s more a question of whether the UBP is committed to following the principles that the organization was created on or tossing them aside in favor of catering to crossbow shooters just for the sake of gaining more members. It’s that simple.
John, I don’t believe anyone is bashing the UBP over crossbows being allowed in bow hunting season. There never was a realistic chance of preventing it and I know good people, some of them my friends, fought hard in a losing cause. Nobody holds any ill will to their efforts. The discussion being held now is where does the UBP go from here and how do they go about getting there."
^^^^^^^^^THIS
Phil put into words the exact reason I have been watching this thread so closely. Thank you sir.
Perry, it's no longer a conspiracy theory since it's been proven to be true.
I have a question. If someone is a member of the UBP and then takes a crossbow out hunting a time or two this fall, how is the UBP going to find out? And let's say they do find out about it, should this person then be kicked out of the UBP and dues refunded?
Chris, I'm only going to speak for myself and not all the other members. The UBP was based upon, In their own words being a handheld, hand drawn organization. Especially when we were fighting against the xbow. Many of members jointed and wrote letters against xbows. So how do we now do a 180 and start supporting them? What do we tell our members that are against them? In my opinion the xbows weaken the UBP and it's mission toward it's handheld, hand drawn members.. Why can't we just not support or advocate for xbows? We did say we were a handheld, hand drawn organization. I feel that the members and not an executive board should decide, and make big of a decision to include xbows... Ed
Phil, well-stated.
Bob, I have tried to enlighten everyone here on the WHATS, WHERE, WHEN and WHOS of what has transpired recently in our organization.
Like I said before, a couple people in leadership tried to go rogue and take this organization in a direction based on their own personal agenda. When it all became apparent, the BOD took action and those folks resigned when they realized they were not going to get their way. I tried to be as truthful and up front as I could possibly be on a public message board, without airing dirty laundry.
A lot of unfounded accusations, mischaracterizations and pure speculation was thrown out there by you and some others ......................without being present at any of the meetings or seeing any of the correspondence among the BOD’s on various topics firsthand. I tried to enlighten you and the membership here on these issues and present the facts but apparently you will not accept it at face value. So I will not waste anymore time trying to explain it. I think most people who know me will say I am a “straight shooter”....................I tell it like it is- good, bad or indifferent!
If anyone would like more information about UBP, issues and/or events feel free to send me a PM.
I’m done posting to this thread.
Vonfoust- my brother shoots a crossbow as does my son. I love them both:) In fact Im going to put new shrink vanes on my bros carbon arrahs so he can hunt with his Matthews bow again. He used to drink Bud Light:)
Perry, your claim about a couple of people going rogue is simply not true...according to at least one Board Member. Check out the thread "UBP'S Last Sunday in October Proposal." In that thread you'll see that I accused Daub of doing things on his own. You'll also see a Board Member say that Daub was doing things with that Board's approval.
It appears the Board only took action after I started making "Trouble" for the leadership by exposing what was happening to the general membership via social media.
You say you were trying to Enlighten me. I viewed it as you trying to run interference. The people who should have "Enlightened" me, the Board, should have contacted me. Not one of them ever did.
I get that Ed and that is why I joined. I just don't know how to "police" it.
Chris, personally I don’t believe it needs to be policed. If a person joins the UBP because they are primarily a bowhunter and supports the mission of the organization I don’t see that it matters whether they occasionally use other weapons, whether a crossbow, muzzleloader or center fire. If someone is primarily a crossbow shooter I don’t believe they would want to join. The question really is should the UBP actively recruit folks that primarily shoot crossbows. I don’t believe they should as that goes against the principles the organization was built upon.
I also have no problem with a member shooting a crossbow if they are physically unable to shoot a bow.
I think one of the problems is that since the PGC has accepted crossbows as an archery tool any lobbying that the UBP does for archery season is also going to benefit crossbow shooters. Why not let them help foot that bill? I would also make sure that everyone knows (probably in the mission statement) that while we understand that many of the things that the UBP promotes will also benefit crossbow users there will be times that the UBP will promote the use of hand drawn archery equipment over a crossbow. Then let them decide. I'm all for taking crossbow users money as long as the mission statement makes it evident that when these differences arise the UBP will stay on the side of the hand drawn bow.
Chris, interesting. As the UBP did pay the freight bill for a lot of the issues that both enjoy.
A question and a comment: How did the UBP ever think they could argue crossbows, when they would not argue firearms for deer in October? And. In regards to potentially compromising on crossbows, please realize there is no such thing a sending up equal. There will be a loser and a winner.
Chris, you bring up a good point that I’m sure has been mentioned by some of the UBP leadership, if crossbow shooters are going to benefit from it why not take their money? My answer to that is what happens when you get to the point where crossbow members outnumber hand drawn, hand held members? Do we have a repeat of what almost happened just recently where they try to take the organization in a different direction?
Phil, that would be dependent on the size of ‘nads the leadership has. Do they adhere to the mission statement of the UBP regarding vertical, hand drawn bows, or do they cower to the crossbow crowd and their money. With the lack of transparency shown, here, on this thread, I know where I’d place my bet.
Bob, I think people in most states initially were naive in thinking they could keep crossbows out of archery seasons. It didn’t take long to see what PA and other states were facing and reality set in.
But I won’t question the effort put into fighting the crossbows. I mentioned before I had some friends involved in the fighting here and in other states. I know there was a serious effort put forth by them even when the realization came of what they were up against.
13 years ago, 13 years.
Question #1- How do we attract new members? Question #2- How do we achieve question #1 while keeping with our founding policies? Question#3- If the UBP is to prosper and grow as an organization signing new members is essential to the survival of the organization as well as promoting bowhunting in Pa. Question #4- Do you really think that this organization can survive the next say, 10 years without expanding it's membership?
The horizontal battle took it's toll, internally, externally and beyond the borders of this state, generationally, as well as within our sport. Made enemies of sportsman as well as outside our ranks, Solutions?
I'll wait.
Your question isn’t unique to this organization. Many non profits are faced with dwindling membership. Many are fortunate to gain as many members in a year as they lose. Growing and prospering may not be a reality at this point. When there are big issues memberships tend to grow. Without issues apathy sets in.
Given the number of bow hunters in this state there is a huge pool of prospective members but they need a reason to join. Golf shoots, camp outs, the 5C hunt are all good member benefits but the number of members participating is fairly small. What other reasons are there for people to join? Past accomplishments won’t mean much to today’s bowhunter.
So what is the pitch that prospective members hear? What would entice them to join? To that end, why would a crossbow shooter want to join? What do any of them get for their money?
I’d like to hear some comments. I have some thoughts that I’ll share later.
What would William Wallace do?
Teeton crossbows can be used during the regular rifle season ,eventually they will be allowed in archery season
Ultimag, xbows have been legal in Pa's archery season for 10 years.
Ultimag, to me it's not about xbow being legal. It's about a handheld, hand drawn organization go to an xbow organization.
The UBP is a Bowhunter/Bowhunting organization. This Life Member believes people using crossbows are NOT bowhunters & they are not bowhunting. Just because they identify as a bowhunter doesn't mean they are a bowhunter and it doesn't mean the UBP has to cater to their feelings. As some have said before, they do not join bowhunter organizations. We saw first-hand what happened to the Crossbow Hunters of PA organization as soon as a Government Agency (PGC) decided to change the definition of a bow, and legalized them statewide...the crossbow organization immediately shut down and disbanded.
I feel about crossbows the same way Bob does.
I havent been a member of the UBP for many years and don't see a reason to join. I too would like to hear answers to some of the membership questions above. Why should I join?
I feel about crossbows the same way Bob does. I havent been a member of the UBP for many years and don't see a reason to join. I too would like to hear answers to some of the membership questions above. Why should I join?---------------Why should you not join?
“ Why should I join?---------------Why should you not join?”
With all due respect, that is a terrible answer. I would hope that anyone trying to encourage a person to join would never say that.
I spent a big portion of my career selling medical equipment and clinical information systems. High dollar and high pressure sales in a very competitive market. In addition to my job, I worked a booth at countless shows across the country. I trained sales people. To have consistent success you need to know what the person you are talking to is interested in. Telling someone what you want them to know before you know what they are looking for is wasted time. Having a holier-than-thou approach, like asking why they should not join, is demeaning and questions their judgement and decision making.
They need to have a compelling reason presented to them that satisfies their specific need or want. And that will vary from person to person. Spouting off all the accomplishments of the UBP is just retelling history. Find their interest and reinforce how the organization can satisfy that interest and there is a good chance of getting a new member.
I appreciate the time all those that worked shows put in over the years. I don’t know what information or guidance those folks were given but I’m willing to bet they were not really prepared to sell memberships. I’ve talked with some folks at shows and walked away thinking if I wasn’t already a life member there was no compelling reason for me to join. I’ve heard all about the past and a little about the present but nothing that addressed things I was looking for because nobody ever asked what I wanted from the organization. This is not to fault the generous folks that work the shows. It’s just an oversight that they weren’t given the tools and guidance that would have helped them.
First we did oppose crossbows- with exception to those physically restricted. 2nd we DID oppose Oct rifles. We were also told(threatened) made mention, the possibility of the loss of 2 weeks of archery. Understand that because you don’t see it publicly doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
If you dislike the UBP, prove it by not using the benefits that we fought for. Cmon guys it’s not that hard lolol
2nd- the energy expelled by those trashing/questioning motives for the past how many years, YOU COULD HAVE BECOME A Board member and help drive the UBP in the direction you see fit!
I believe after elections in July-( you all are running for a position right?? Lolol) you will see then, some activity of a full voting BOD, including a new president- not a temp, that are most likely more receptive to its members. :)
Phil, that was the best piece of advice I have seen anybody make all year. And, what Dale said.
Dale..I was at the public meetings. There was only one group that publicly opposed the firearms. What 2 weeks do you speak of? IMO, the 2 weeks in Nov. costs archery hunters far more than it is worth. Unless of course if its all about antlers. You do realize that today with firearms and crossbows, archers are the minority in the October woods?
Yeah Bob. Do you realize that not all communications are public? Bob did you oppose the oct rifle season during your speech at the public podium there? XOXOXO :)
If only our trad guys would stick together….we could’ve had it all! :))) Hey that dude looks like Hawkeye from Pa!! Thank God he don’t have an automatic quiver! There wouldn’t be any game for us to kill:)
I should also mention that in virtually all of the Loyalhanna creek area that I hunt, after the second week or so there are 10- 20 waterfowlers hunting EVERYDAY that BOWHUNT,. Now when I hunt Forbes State Forest, it’s woodcock and grouse hunters….. Add the non-hunting ie. anti Sunday hunting sector of Pa’s SF woodlands that are trail hikers, Ride Dirt Bicycles, Horseback riders, pretend foragers and obstacle track mud runners, that call the Laurel Hill Police on me for parking there and hunting?? Should I blame the UBP for that? Again… xoxoxo :)
Brother...the only thing that I took issue with was not resisting firearms. Any argument after that against lesser weapons was lost.
And yes. With the organizations blessings, I did speak against the firearms in archery season. That group did nothing without the membership being on board.
I never renewed my membership with the UBP after that meeting. Too much going on that the membership was not aware of...I guess that's politics.
You do realize that there are other places to hunt, where some of those user groups aren't allowed:^) And, I never had the approach that it was archers only woods in October. We infringed upon the grouse and squirrel hunters. Unless I'm wrong, archery hunters never impacted those hunters much at all. Can't say the same about other user groups today. It's a good thing we didn't have classes in school about "accepting change". I'd have failed miserably.
Bob my whole life was squirrel hunting. I hated the fact that bow hunters were the woods. Seriously. To take out a kid or another hunter-no matter the age, and teach them hunt, it should be mandatory to take a person squirrel hunting.
Glad you recognized that we as bow hunters did infringe upon other groups. It wasn’t as important back then.
Here’s to 200, and the fact that it’s not official That the UBP is a crossbow group. I look forward to see all of the folks on here running for BOD’s when open.
^^^^And just like that, a voice of reason has come to Bowsite^^^^
Openings in the UBP BOD, Pres and VP are plenty. Do we have any takers to end a 200 posting of conspiracy theories?
Bob and others…. There are many items, ideas, upcoming possibilities etc that JUST CANT be brought up to the membership due to importance of other issues AFFECTING that particular issue, or these items not being on the “legal” table. It’s been this way since the early 90’s when I became a member. Interactions of ideas between orgs/agencies, can be jeopardized, before any success can be had by jumping the string so to speak.
OK. You have a PM coming.
Can someone give a quick list of responsibilities of being on the BOD? How much time/travel etc is involved?
