Benefit of accepting xbows in UBP
Pennsylvania
So we have the topic of accepting crossbow shooters to be members of the UBP. Can anyone tell me the benefit of accepting crossbows? I personally don't see one. From my experience, most crossbow shooters only pick up their weapon for the season, then it's back in the closet till the next season.
I know a lot of compound shooters in our area that do the same.....................
Woody, It adds money to the orgs bank account and keeps it alive, albiet temporarily, but at the cost of its soul. That is the only reason.
I made a lengthy post in another thread. Actively recruiting crossbow users will not increase the membership ranks greatly. Neither will "accepting crossbows" as a bow. The best path forward, IMO, is to accept crossbows as a weapon that are legal in Pa's archery seasons and move past it and use crossbows as a tool to help accomplish the goal to promote "bowhunting" with vertical equipment in the end, as strange as that may sound to some. The future is not aging hunters like me and most that are here on this board. The future is young hunters who are passionate about hunting. You got to get to them young and you got to get them hunting and successful at hunting at a young age in today's world. That might mean using the crossbow to get that done at organized youth shoots or just backyard fun with the kids. Waiting till they can pull enough and become proficient enough to hunt may take enough time for that kid to lose the interest. In time, many of those youths that start with the crossbow switch to vertical equipment and stay there. And most importantly, they are passionate about it and what sporting organizations need moving forward to maintain membership and relevance. The same goes for new hunters and women hunters. Take it for whats it worth from someone that has been in the crossbow scene for some time.
UBP is the only organization that I know of that represents bow hunters at Game Commission meetings and to state legaslators. Everything the ubp gets and/or protects for bow hunters (no matter what the definition) benefits everybody, i.e., all of you in some way. The laws say what a bow hunter is. UBP got the middle finger from the PGC on that subject a long time ago. As soon as the law changed we were working for crossbow hunters whether we wanted to (accepted them) or not. So if the UBP at some point no longer existed or never was, where would we be now and who would represent us in the future? You have the opportunity to listen in on the meeting this week. Also, anybody can run for office that qualifies.
“ As soon as the law changed we were working for crossbow hunters whether we wanted to (accepted them) or not”
Exactly Art! THAT is the bottom line.......................
It doesn’t mean we have to accept them into the UBP without the membership voting on it.
Well I was not going to comment till the meeting. But after I got informed of much information this afternoon. I got pretty upset. Mainly how I was plain out lied to. I asked a board member, was there talk of changing the UBP logo. I was plain out told "NO". How many of you guys posting here knew about that? Also that they were making changes to "OUR" mission statement. I'm 100% sure now that me being told that the meet last year was canceled, was all part of being deceived and lied to by some. Anyone here want to comment on this and try to defend what was done and why. Please help me understand maybe I missed something and I'm wrong. Go.
In the words of the great Gene Wensel " technology has cheapend the sport of bowhunting". It will be two years ago at the annual meeting, that I stepped away from my position as Regional Director for the UBP. During my tenure, we were doing as many as eight balloon shoots through out the greater Lehigh Valley and in partnership with Cabelas. In that time, I had the privilege to bow in the hand of literally a few thousand people, mostly youth, and most for the very first time. I will always remember the astonishment at being able to pop a balloon with simply God given, hand to eye coordination. I recall many parents inquiring about local archery ranges where they might take it a step further.
I have never been afraid to state my distain for crossbows, but I saw the writing on the wall as an inevitable course for the future of the UBP. A future that I just don't support. And dpms, I don't buy into the camp of, make it easy on the kids and they'll stick around. The data just doesn't support it. In the last few years, I have mentored a few adults who would never had the opportunity to get the exposure to bowhunting. These have been sustaining.
I am still a life member, but I now enjoy the freedom of being an independent and individual bowhunter. Carry on fellas...
Apparently I was mistaken when I applied to open up the Bowsite.com web, in Pennsylvania, as I thought this was for bowhunters. Didn't realize it was only for "stick and string" users. Yes, this is how I started out when I was younger with a traditional recurve then as I aged used a compound and as I aged more, the crossbow. I just assumed those on this site were all one in the same of an ethical fraternity of Pennsylvania hunters mostly who pursued whitetail with an arrow. I will say that through the years I have enjoyed reading many threads and come to recognize the "click" of guys that always banter and provided insight about their hunts, preparation, etc; however, I still failed to realize "stick and string". Just thought that "hey" these guys are much like me and my old cousins that hunt together, sharing the same passion spending time outdoors, setting trail cameras up, challenge to target a nice buck in season, or not. Today, I just realized I don't belong here because I use a crossbow and obviously mistakenly thinking I was in the same fraternity of Pennsylvanian hunters. And I am sure most of you all sadly agree. Oh well, another learning experience. So, I will be removing myself from Bowsite.com. I do understand/accept your strong convictions and hope you can still move forward enjoying this site and each other and not let USB muck up your state of mind. Good luck, good health, be safe.
Bowjo: "And dpms, I don't buy into the camp of, make it easy on the kids and they'll stick around. "
During the crossbow wars I had pretty hard data that did support getting kids shooting vertical bows and hunting with crossbows as soon as possible kept them in the ranks and ultimately most were shooting and hunting with vertical bows by their late teens. I presented it to the board. Since years have passed, most of my materials have gone to recycling heaven with my old computers. I wish I had it or could find it somewhere.
LittleBuck, you totally misinderstand what is going on here.
Little buck, you should take a step back and look into it further. What is happening here is not quite what you think.
"During the crossbow wars I had pretty hard data that did support getting kids shooting vertical bows and hunting with crossbows as soon as possible kept them in the ranks and ultimately most were shooting and hunting with vertical bows by their late teens. I presented it to the board. Since years have passed, most of my materials have gone to recycling heaven with my old computers. I wish I had it or could find it somewhere."
Time frame? Mid to late 2000's? Prior to the majority of younger healthy bowhunters using xbows? Since the majority of bowhunters now, including those with kids, are using xbows, I highly doubt those kids are going to make the switch to a bow in their late teens. Why would they?
I agree with Bowbender. Not one person, teen or otherwise that I know, who picked up a crossbow, has gone back to their vertical bow. Oh, they say they will but they never do. And the guys who never bowhunted until crossbows were made legal, rifle hunters, are never going to a bow.
I have to disagree with both Griz and Bowbender. I personally know of several mentored youth hunters that started out using crossbows but have now graduated to vertical draw bows and have been quite successful with them. So that is just an invalid premise on its face. Everyone is different and will choose their own path moving forward but it's not up to us to judge. I just checked the membership application for the UBP and I can find nowhere that asks, "what type of bow you use"??? WHO CARES! As with any organization, as long as you support the mission of the organization and what it stands for and whom it represents then what's the difference what you hunt with. I highly doubt that the UBP even has any idea of how many members use a crossbow and probably could care less as long as they support the "resource first" management philosophy. I personally despise any type of gun hunting but that doesn't mean that I don't belong to organizations that do support it. It's all about personal choice. I can remember when there was a big rift between the UBP and the group called " Traditional Bowhunters of Pa"?? What ever happened to them - I don't hear much about them anymore if they even exist. I suspect that they were not willing to change with the times and are now gone and really never did anything to advance the causes of archers in the state. I hope that I never have to go to a crossbow (my choice) but if I do, I'm not going to NOT support the UBP. The organization has done so much for bowhunting in this state in my over 50 years of bowhunting and archery experience that I am forever grateful for what they have done. My suggestion - Don't be so narrow minded and short sighted. Step back - take a deep breath and look at the big picture and ask what you can do to help matters rather than casting doubt and divisiveness. The DIMs are already doing enough of that!!!
Bowbender asked; "Time frame? Mid to late 2000's? Prior to the majority of younger healthy bowhunters using xbows? Since the majority of bowhunters now, including those with kids, are using xbows, I highly doubt those kids are going to make the switch to a bow in their late teens. Why would they?"
I don't have it in front of me but if I recall the data was a survey from Ohio which occurred in the early 2000s. It is interesting how peoples anecdotal evidence is so much different. I know probably two dozen kids that started out with crossbows in the mentored hunting program. I would say that 75% use vertical bows now. Why, you and Griz asked? They wanted more of a challenge. A few felt like vertical bows were just easier to pack in and out of the woods. Some have stayed with the crossbow. I actually know several adults that started hunting archery season with a crossbow when they were legalized that now use compounds. Even know a fella that began using recurves, then compounds, then crossbow and is now saying he is returning to a compound this fall.
It makes sense right. The natural progression of hunters is usually started out wanted to kill everything we can. As we get more experience we then begin to seek more challenge of a challenge when we kill. Then, the older we get, the kill becomes less important and we pass up many animals. That is a well known phenomenon and most of us when through it.
The casual hunters are going to stick to the crossbow but the casual hunters do not get involved in sporting orgs or promoting the sport.
DP,
"I know probably two dozen kids that started out with crossbows in the mentored hunting program."
Again, time frame? Was that before the majority of dads getting their kids into bowhunting were xbow users themselves? When I am in Kinseys or LAS, I don't see late teens early 20's looking at bows. They are getting xbows. If the reverse was true (and current) we wouldn't be seeing upwards of 70% of bowhunters using xbows.
I'm well aware of the natural progression of hunters and don't need a somewhat condescending reminder. Todays bowhunter was attracted not only by the opportunity, but the EASE of becoming a bowhunter. In my group of friends and acquaintances, that span in age from mid 20's to 60's not one has switched back from a xbow. Not one. Look at the FB bowhunting pages. Folks actually express surprise when a kill that is posted is taken with a compound.
On the other thread you mentioned as an outsider you are thankful for the work of the UBP. Basically standing on the shoulders of others that did the work...and proclaiming yourself tall.
I couldn't care any less on who uses what. This whole thing was about not getting input from the membership on the acceptance of able-bodied crossbow shooters into the UBP. If the membership votes to include them, I have no problem with it. However, the membership, excepting a few, still have no idea this has happened.
For me, it's all about transparency.
Bob, despite what you (and apparently Ed) may think, there was no big "conspiracy!" I remember sitting in the annual meeting at C.J. Hummels 2 years ago when this topic came up. It was decided that basically the legislature forced our hand when they made them legal. There was talk about trying to keep (able bodied) crossbow users out of the UBP, however there was a lot of question as to how we could even do that. And I believe it was decided that membership(or lack thereof) was a bigger issue and if crossbow users wanted to join our ranks, then so be it. (That is how I remember it to the best of my recollection)
ANd despite what Ed may think, I truly do NOT believe he or anyone was purposely excluded from the annual meeting last year that (due to a COVID outbreak among members/officers and a pending snowstorm) was conducted entirely on ZOOM. It was a very fluid situation and changed literally day to day until the day before the meeting when it was decided that due to COVID exposure and illness that Rick and I would have been the only one's face to face at CJ Hummels. I was staying at my Mom's home in Lebanon and did not find out until that morning that it would be on ZOOM only, and had already made the decision to drive home and be on the road while the meeting was taking place, in order to beat the pending snowstorm. I'm not sure if it was a technical issue or just an error that Ed did not get the link to zoom, but I truly believe it was nothing nefarious!
Rut, I never said it was a conspiracy. Originally, I said I believed it was a unilateral decision made by the Legislative Director. Billy V. corrected me on that & I said "I stand corrected." From that point on my gripe was with the recently Past & the Present Leadership & BOD doing it without the general memberships knowledge, i.e. without polling the membership.
I know there's some people, who I consider friends, that are very pissed off at me for bringing this to light. That's fine, I can easily deal with it. What I don't understand is why they aren't pissed off at the lack of transparency. Hell, do you think I'm enjoying this? It sucks because I shouldn't have had to be the one to make this public. This should have been announced in the UBP Newsletter after the meeting at C.J. Hummels 2 years ago when this topic was discussed & a decision made.
The UBP was NEVER against the use of the crossbow by the truly disabled or older hunters that could not draw a stick and string. I have friends, mostly Vietnam veterans that use a crossbow and it doesn't bother me because most of them can't handle a compound, recurve or long bow any more. When I joined the UBP in the 70's the motto was To Preserve and Protect Bowhunting and they did a darn good job of it for many years. The day the PGC allowed crossbows in the regular archery season, I never hunted again. I sold my longbow, gave away 13 tree stands and all my equipment to a friend of mine that had two young sons just starting to bowhunting. I refused to be in the woods with those things.
After weeks of discussions, now the truth comes out. So this was/is a conspiracy to deprive the Members of their rights. A few questions: How many people were at the meeting, how was the vote requested, what were the vote totals, and where are the Meeting minutes? I will be contacting all Members of the BOD, the Pres, the VP, & the Secretary to give their side of the story & request all paperwork. I am requesting they reply not just to me but to ALL Members
Well stymied again. I checked and the info on the webpage (including the members only area) is outdated. Does anyone know the current email addresses of the Board, Pres, VP & the secretary? I also called the UBP office & left a vm to send me the list.
Thanks,
Bob, I'm not even sure that was an official topic on the agenda. It might have been discussion that just came up when talking about another subject. If memory serves, there were not many in attendance at C.J.'s................................I think Bill V, Joe Filassetta, Brock Waldron, Steve Koch, Sam, Rick, Patrick and maybe one other board member. There were several board members on Zoom. That is the problem- most of the meetings are very poorly attended unless there is a "hot button" issue at hand.......................
I also remember discussion about probably already having members who are crossbow users since there is no way to track that. What are we supposed to do about that?! There always seems to be a lot of criticism of the BOD's decisions, but never seems to be a lot of folks who want to pitch in and help with the answers..........................................
I think we all walked away from that meeting scratching our heads on that particular topic and nobody really had any answers, so it really didn;t go any further.....................................
Perry, you're my friend and I appreciate what you're attempting to do here. However, just as I shouldn't have been the one to bring this to light, you shouldn't be the one having to try to explain it to me...we're just members.
Thanks! Love you Brother.
After I stepped down from the VP position, we had approximately 3500 members. I base this number on the number of Robo calls I used to set up sending legislative information to EVERY member. I've been told that the current number of UBP members is close to 1000. (if this is inaccurate, I apologize) If people thought that including Crossbow shooters was going to increase membership, they were sadly mistaken. The UBP has lost more members then they gained.
Bob, actually I am not just a member....................I am a Regional Director and as you know I serve on the 5C Hunt Commitee................and as Ed pointed out, I am the unofficial “social director” ;-) Although I have no vote or decision making authority on BOD issues, I attend the annual meetings and I forward information on UBP events to Bowsite and by e-mail, text and/or phone calls to any members or prospective members who are interested. That’s all I’m trying to do here........................
Buck- I don’t think anyone expects our numbers to soar by welcoming in crossbow users, but at this point with dwindling numbers, I think we are doing anything we can to bolster the membership!
I think in a sense we are a victim of our own success.................we lobbied the PGC for years and now enjoy the most liberal archery season in our state’s history. I remember a board member saying when our numbers started to drop drastically after the crossbow fight was over, “WE NEED ANOTHER CRISIS OR CONTROVERSY TO GET OUR NUMBERS BACK UP” as that was always when our membership seemed to swell.
Unfortunately at this point, I think the UBP is “damned if we do(accept crossbow users as members) and damned if we don’t!” Whatever we do, we’re gonna upset a lot of people! : (
What Perry says is correct, this will anger a lot of people and also force some to relinquish membership and or have grudges for a long time. As guys get older, one of two things happen, either they tend to let things go more easily or they have a harder time letting things go and hold grudges forever. I see this as the same situation. However, there are some hard truths coming and they will be hard to swallow. The question on the table is, were stuck. We are stuck mired in lifetime members and and through no fault of our own a membership that is growing long in the tooth. And as the membership gets older, without an influx of new memberships how does the UBP survive. I see a lot of fingers pointing but not so many answers to that question. The second tabled question is is we do not grow our ranks, then what becomes of the UBP, and the work that a lot of people have put forth and the active fight against a very biased PGC goes by the wayside and we just let it die? That is the reality of it, does the membership just want to pack it in over a battle lost 13 years ago? Yes, the point is we lost 13 years ago. I know it still stings, but what next? Do I believe that our ranks will swell with xbow users, nope. Did we anger a lot of people during that battle, we sure did internally and externally. We fought the good fight, but in the end the deck was stacked against us, and we lost. In every battle, there is a winner and a loser, this one goes in the L column, but it does not mean the war is over nor does it mean that we just quit. Or does it, I know that the minority of member read these message boards, and we are hearing from guys that haven given life to this org and to only see it succeed. But what concessions would you like to see. I am dismayed over the cloak and dagger approach they have taken to grow membership without input from current members and that I am sure will be addressed and sorted Sunday. So, now what. Pack it in and let it die? Disband it and let the PGC grimace in victory and put us back to 1970 deer management and a 4-week archery season? You know my answer, and anyone who has ever met me knows that I do not surrender or give up.
Only the crossbow can shorten our season. If the season is shortend, and the UBP represents the Crossbow, how will the UBP protect real bowhunters from losing opportunity? Will they then turn on their crossbow members, or, will they say tough stuff to the real bowhunters? I really would like someone to answer that.
Dwindling membership isn't unique to the UBP. I served on a board of our local camera club for fourteen years. The membership was hard pressed to add the number of people that dropped off each year. Volunteers were hard to find to help run the organization. I'm sure there are lots of other organizations that have the same issues.
I don't believe that I'm stereotyping to say that the baby boomer generation took what their parents created and wanted to keep and improve it. There was a different ethic then. The generations that followed seem to be less interested in fraternal or social groups and do seem to shy away from getting involved in most anything other than political activism. Lots of organizations suffered or disappeared.
There is no easy answer. I know adding crossbow members isn't going to be a long-term solution, or possibly not even a short-term one. I wish I had an answer but kids and their parents are mainly interested in sporting activities other than hunting today. Parents will spend a small fortune to have their kid play on a hockey team including traveling to other cities on weekends for tournaments. Traveling baseball teams still gather a lot of interests and involve families. Unfortunately bowhunting or even hunting in general, doesn't seem to get the same amount of attention.
It may mean that the UBP and other groups end up being a core of dedicated people in the organization running on a shoe-string budget. Possibly a crisis will emerge that will draw members but that can't be counted on when doing a budget. It would be interesting for the leadership to do some outside the box thinking. Clearly the balloon shoots and some other family activities were successful in the past. Finding a way to capitalize on that success may be helpful. In many ways I think the key, whatever it is, involves bringing families in, not just individuals.
I am going to bow out of this thread. What is for lunch Sunday? Is the food good there?
No Bob, only the PGC can shorten archery season. And if that is ever proposed by the PGC, the UBP will fight it. IF the UBP is still around......................
John- the food is good there. They have good burgers and the last time I was there for the meeting they had a good lunch special of soup and half a sandwich. I had the BLT and a bowl of chili.
They used to get food..... don’t know if they do so anymore
Perry, Dale, thanks... see you Sunday.
See you then John- safe travel!
Yes on the food, no hotdogs tho. LOL. Seating is limited, so call and let them know you are coming.
My best friends son (16) shot his first buck this year with his dad’s compound bow. Last year, he killed his first doe with his compound bow. He just ordered the new Phase 4. He paid for it himself. He is hooked. He started with a Parker youth cross bow at the age of 8 or so. It can lead to other bows being adopted and used. Carry on
Glad to hear it Robin! But wait............................did you say your friend’s son started hunting with a CROSSBOW at age 8 and now at 16 hunts with a COMPOUND bow???!!! WOW! According to some on on here...............that just DOESN’T happen! ;-)
https://youtu.be/4yBqaA7925A
Cool video. Looks like fun chasing piggys.
The way I see it is the UBP is losing membership and money! IMO
"Glad to hear it Robin! But wait............................did you say your friend’s son started hunting with a CROSSBOW at age 8 and now at 16 hunts with a COMPOUND bow???!!! WOW! According to some on on here...............that just DOESN’T happen! ;-)"
Despite what some believe, the reality is there are many kids that start out with crossbows that switch to vertical equipment when they are able to.
"Despite what some believe, the reality is there are many kids that start out with crossbows that switch to vertical equipment when they are able to."
That's your opinion, not supported by any accompanying data. Last I checked roughy ~65-70% of "bowhunters" are using xbows. So much for the transition.
BTW, The vast majority of teens/young adults I see in Kinseys or LAS are using xbows. Not vertical bows. Again, anectodal evidence...
Be interesting if the large archery shops would post some sales statistics.
Bow, I was talking about young kids that start out with crossbows as a mentored hunter. Many switch to compounds when they are able. You are right though that the majority of those that hunt archery seasons are using crossbows. That is a separate point.
I wish I still had the data I presented to the PGC about young kids that started with crossbows switching to crossbows in their teens. IIRC, it was above 50%.
"You are right though that the majority of those that hunt archery seasons are using crossbows. That is a separate point."
Still the master of the side step....sigh. On one hand you say many switch to vertical bows when they get older but then follow with the majority use xbows and claim it to be a seperate point. No, no and again no. They are inexcorably linked.
Perhaps your data is seriously dated. You know, prior to the majority of bowhunters using xbows. Back in 2009, it was suggested that my son get a xbow for his mentored youth license. The vast vast majority were using vertical bows. That changed about 2017 or 18. If memory serves.... So if dad's using one, I highly doubt and from what I see in the two local large shops, they ain't switching.
Bow said: "Still the master of the side step....sigh. On one hand you say many switch to vertical bows when they get older but then follow with the majority use xbows and claim it to be a seperate point. No, no and again no. They are inexcorably linked."
Nah. It just comes down to basic math. The number of very young kids starting out it far outnumbered by the the number of people that made the switch from compounds to crossbows or new adult archery participants that chose to begin when crossbows when they were legalized. Looking specifically at the small demographic of very young kids that start out hunting with crossbows, it was over 50% that switched to compounds later, IIRC. That data could be dated for sure as I presented it years ago during the crossbow wars. Anecdotally, my experience is different than yours. The great majority of mentored kids that started out with crossbows now use compounds among those I know. Actually very few use crossbows still that are in the late teens and twenties.
Interestingly, in the south, most of those that hunt archery use compounds but in the midwest and northeast, most use crossbows.
Of course it's basic math. And you are using at least 12 year old data. If 65-70% of bowhunters are using xbows, their kids ain't gonna switch.
Maybe, just maybe, in the south they still raise men to be men. ;)
I stopped caring several years ago about what the PGC does.Hunting is dying a rapid death and there's nothing I can do about it.As far as crossbow numbers,I can count the number of bowhunters n one hand who I know personally that actually still use a bow.I know of one guy who switched to a crossbow when they became legal and switched back to a bow.I used to be involved with a semi-controlled hunt where you had to take a proficiency test.Six years ago I took my son to qualify when he was 12 and he was the only one there with a compound.He was also the only youth.The last I heard,there were less than 12 guys using compounds in that hunt out of 120 hunters.I started my son with a crossbow when he was 8 and he started using a compound when he was 11.I only know of one other youth that's now using a bow.It is what it is.Crossbows are where it's at now.
