2023 UBP Annual Meeting
Pennsylvania
All members are invited..............
(If you would rather attend remotely, please send an e-mail to: [email protected] for the ZOOM link)
Is it necessary to get the invite from you perry?
No Dale- you can e-mail Patrick in the UBP office if you prefer.
Coffee and donuts will be provided in the morning and venison sandwiches for lunch.
Perry I’ve had a myriad of invites. Thanks
Ok- they’re asking that everyone log into the zoom with your real name so they know who’s participating. (So no Metikki! ;-)
Not even sure I’m logging on bud...
Hey Dale, Did you know that the only members who are resistant to the change within the organization are "Old White Guys?" If I was in the room instead of being online...
Bob, Could you provide a run down of what went on. I had some family obligations and was only able to log on to hear the discussion about magazine costs, which has been going on for 20+ years by the way, and was not able to hear the comments from the floor very well. I have pretty much determined what my path forward will be but would like to hear how the xbow discussion went and what was the determination, if any. If what you quote above is true, I'd like to know if any action was taken by the board. No organization can tolerate a comment like that. Race, age and gender should never enter the discussion.
Griz, check your messages.
I had to be in New Jersey yesterday for family. Bob or Ed, without a complete recap can you tell me if you got any answers about the that satisfied you?
I had to be in New Jersey yesterday for family. Bob or Ed, without a complete recap can you tell me if you got any answers about the that satisfied you?
We received info but not sure you could call them answers. I also was on ZOOM. For example we heard how the execs changed the UBP Logo (removed the Bows) to make it more inclusive, i.e. include Crossbows. It was ready to be sent out to make new patches but the Grenade (As the BOD called it) Bob Mac threw, stopped them cold. Thanks to Bob the whole UBP Executive Board were caught flat footed pushing for XBows. I for one want to thank him publicly for that Grenade!!!! Rest of meeting was hard to hear as neither laptop was set correctly. I posted a few questions but did not receive response from BOD. I jumped off before end but last comment i posted was that the Meeting minutes must be sent to all Members ASAP. Also vote must be taken ASAP about Direction of UBP. I guess we the members just have to wait as ball is in their court.
I am sure that the minutes will be forthcoming. The mission is to promote bowhunting in PA. The Facebook post was bad, terrible actually and it shouldn't have been posted without any discussion, that is for sure. However, it was discussed and was not met with approval, by anyone. Changes are coming. As for grenades, a finger doodle fire cracker maybe, not a grenade.
When you change the mission statement you have fundamentally changed an organization.
Grenade & Bomb verbiage were stated by a multiple BOD Members so I'm thinking the shrapnel got their attention :)
I'd say the board got the picture. The two that most pushed for new mission statement and logo and not wanting to keep the members informed have resigned. One if I understand correctly resigned as a member, but not 100% sure on that, but that's how I took it. So I wouldn't call it a grenade, but more of a tomahawk cruise missile right in the window. Busy day at work with holiday, so this is short sorry. Ed
I see Bob is trying to lob more grenades! : (
Does anyone besides Bob remember hearing that comment? Ed?
The logo change was also to symplify the design.............Pat Schild explained the more detailed design was harder to embroider and thus cost more. A simple keystone with arrow would be much easier to make and cost less. Trying to cut our expenses ANY way we can!
In my opinion everything was blown WAY out of proportion prior to the meeting! There were some on the board as Ed mentioned who thought we should be more “inclusive” and they resigned when it was obvious the board was not moving in that direction. The decision was to stay neutral at best.................and to continue the work of promoting and protecting hunting opportunities for all archery hunters.
I believe the BOD heard the message loud and clear that members want transparency and accountability and would like to be polled on important issues. The BOD intends to get back to that practice with several polling questions coming soon.
Finances and membership (or lack-there-of) were also major topics for discussion. They have always been an issue, but with membership continuing it’s rapid decline, it is approaching a critical point(if we’re not there already!)
Overall it was probably one of the most productive meetings I can remember. And probably one of the most well attended(in recent memory) Too bad it took such a “crisis” (perceived or otherwise) to get folks to attend.
Now the real work begins...............I believe we have a President, Vice President and 2 board member seats to fill......................
Thanks for the update. And thanks for holding the leadership accountable.
Perry, my posting something that was said is not lobbing a grenade.
Check the zoom log for the time of the comment...i asked that comment be explained. Start Playing the recording from about 90 seconds before my comment, and listen carefully because a few people were talking. The person who made it was sitting to your left. I responded to your pm with his name.
From: Bob McArthur 16-Jan-23
Hey Dale, Did you know that the only members who are resistant to the change within the organization are "Old White Guys?" If I was in the room instead of being online...
Nice try Bob, but that “old white guys” comment was referring to how the UBP was started. I believe if you will check the records you will find it’s true. In fact, I’m sure the vast majority of members currently fall into that category.
Nice try taking it out of context though! If you ever need a job you could probably get hired by CNN or the National Inquirer! ;-)
Your attempt at stirring the pot was weak at best................
Too bad you weren’t in the room....................we could have discussed things face to face.
Perry, i wasn't trying to stir the pot. I posted what I heard If I took it out of context, I stand corrected.
Now let me tell you something you need to hear. You, the other regional directors, the current board members, and the recently resigned president, and vice president/legislative director are the ones responsible for this mess. It was you people who operated under the cover of darkness. It was you people that took it upon yourselves to accept crossbows, or, looked the other way and allowed it to go on. It was you people who did not tell your county reps . It was you people who kept it from the membership. It was you people who compromised your honor and integrity and sold out the bowhunters of the organization. Unlike you, I don't compromise my principals for anyone or anything.
The harder you try to make me look like the bad guy in all of this, the weaker you look.
After being in the room yesterday, and hearing what transpired, and listening to what went on. I have little doubt as to what was known and to what wasn't about that issue. I am sure that a few acted on the behalf of many. That being said, I have no doubt that it's getting resolved.
I was on the patch committee. One of the big reasons for change was for Instant product identity and recognition. Like the Nike swoosh, chevy bowtie, or Olympic rings, you know what it is when you see it. The cost for embroidery with multiple colors and intricate lines looking correct was also a factor. Even thought about getting back towards the original.
FWIW- This kind of stuff is supposed to happen. It appears to have been dealt with. And the UBP will be better for it. These individuals were held to accountability or so it appears. Pull up your big boy undies everyone:) there is work to be done:)
Would you rather walk a virgin mountain path to your stand or a crowded walk upon an asphalt trail? Good job fellers. The passion that grew- AND NOW PROTECTS our organization is still there and on both sides of the trail:)
I'm not trying to make you look bad Bob, I'm simply stating the facts. ANd speaking of FACTS, let me correct you on a few things.............................................
First, the Regional Directors have no vote and are generally not even included in the BOD meetings and therefore do not vote when it comes to issues. We are simply liasons between the BOD and the County Reps and the members in our regions. So I don't see how we are "responsible for this mess" as you put it..................................
Second, and I will say this only one MORE time because "you need to hear it"............................UBP did not "decide to accept crossbows"- that decision was made FOR us(by the legislature) when they legalized crossbows statewide 13 years ago! And don't you think that might have been a motive for the decision besides just the monetary benefit......................just another way to "stick it to the UBP!" : (
And as far as your claim we "compromised our honor and integrity and sold out the bowhunters of the organization." I will not justify that with a response, other than to say if some folks would have waited and attended the meeting instead of making assumptions and jumping to conclusions and making a whole lot of unfounded accusations on social media, it would have been a whole lot more productive!
Now excuse me while I "pull up my big boy undies" and get to work on some UBP business! ;-)
Perry, I've heard you and some others say that the decision to accept crossbows was made by the PGC when they legalized crossbows. I don't agree with that. Yes, the PGC made crossbows legal weapons and yes they allow them in archery season but that doesn't force the United Bowhunters of PA to automatically accept them. And it doesn't force the UBP to accept crossbow shooters as members. The UBP could decide to make that change and if the members approve then individuals could figure out if the UBP is still for them but there is nothing that says a bowhunting organization has to automatically accept as members folks that choose to shoot other weapons.
As far as your comment about Bob making assumptions, jumping to conclusions and making unfounded accusations - he doesn't need me to defend him but - his posts about what was happening within the UBP don't appear to be wrong. I appreciate him bringing it to our attention and I'm sure many others do too. And it did get a lot more people involved in the process.
One final thought (not for you but in general) - Being on the board for other organizations, I've been through financial issues when membership drops. I understand that costs can only be cut so far but trying to save money by changing the UBP patch to eliminate bows doesn't seem appropriate to me. This is a bowhunting organization. I don't know what the magazine cost are but I see no reason to continue to publish a hard copy magazine. Distributing an electronic version makes much more sense even if there still a few luddites out there that don't do electronic well.
Perry, 1. Above I didn't say the Regional Directors had a vote. The Regional Directors stood by and let this go on instead of notifying the County Reps so that the County Reps could notify the membership. Instead of making excuses for why happened, you could have made a stand against it. You didn't and that makes you complicit.
2. The claim that the Legislature made that decision for the UBP is bull-manure. Show me where in the By-Laws it says the the State Legislature, the PGC, or any other outside organization makes decisions on who & what the UBP must support. All you're trying to do is a CYA, and it's pathetic.
3. With the help of other people, we caught leadership doing things without notifying the membership. I just happened to be the one that brought that to light & social media was the tool I used to reach as many people as possible quickly. And it worked. Everything I brought to light; wanting to take a day away from bear hunters, actively recruiting crossbow hunters, allowing able-bodied crossbow hunters at the 5C hunt; were UBP Leadership's words...not accusations. The 5C hunt crossbow issue were your words...not an accusation.
4. We then found out the UBP was going to change its mission statement without asking membership. No BOD or Regional Director sounded the alarm on that one...FACT.
5. We found out the UBP was going to change our logo without asking membership. One member of the BOD told Ed R. there was no plan to change it. We then find out on Sunday Ed was lied to...FACT.
I'm really think that everyone should get up to date on 3 things 1. The new patch and how much it's really going to save ($) the UBP or is it more for appeasing another group. I don't have that answer yet.
2. The UBP crossbow statement. You make your own opinion on that.
3. Mission Statement. To me the wording is going to restrict what the UBP can and can't do. I feel the wording should be about the UBP and what it's members want. Read it and decide for yourself. In the near future you are going to see airbows coming to Pa. Airbows are starting to now become legal in other states. So I feel some Robert Godshall wannabe is going to push for airbows. Their not going to be really pushing for it to be in gun season, as no one would really buy them. It will be about archery season. Ed
PS Here's the UBP email address. [email protected] Email them and ask to start getting email and info on the above.
The magazine discussion has been going on for years. Make it digital only and cut the costs. At shows post a QR code or link to the mag so guys can read it when they get the chance. Considering the lack of content (yes Perry, we know people need to submit) it should be added to the monthly newsletter and made a quarterly digital magazine. As for what Phil said above and Bob did? Kudos. I agree wholeheartedly with both.
The sun will rise, the sky will not fall and the seas did not boil. It will be okay, what was said and done was a good start. I agree with the mission statement needs work as does the transparency of the work ahead and also not letting past mistakes get in the way of growing our ranks. The future of the UBP is what is at hand, and it will no happen overnight, but it was a good start.
Well Phil, we're gonna have to just agree to disagree...................................
From: Bob McArthur17-Jan-23
Perry, 1. Above I didn't say the Regional Directors had a vote. The Regional Directors stood by and let this go on instead of notifying the County Reps so that the County Reps could notify the membership. Instead of making excuses for why happened, you could have made a stand against it. You didn't and that makes you complicit.
You are totally wrong Bob- as Regional Directors we are not even present at most BOD meetings unless we have a specific issue to discuss that pertains to our area or the BOD request our presence to discuss a certain topic. We find out AFTER the BOD Meetings what was discussed and what decisions were made, IF the info needs to go out to the County Reps and members. These specific issues were to be brought up and discussed at the annual meeting, so as far as I know, none of the RD's or CR's were notified beforehand. SO how we could be "complicit" is beyond me..................................
Another thing you seem to ignore (or maybe not comprehend), is the fact that there were 2 board members who apparently had their own agenda. ANd when it came to light recently, the BOD dealt with it and when these individuals realized they were NOT going to get their way, they both resigned. So the system worked. It's just too bad certain individuals couldn't (as they say) "trust the system" and let things work themselves out. Instead of creating all sorts of chaos and controversy on social media.
Now I need to focus on the "work at hand", so I will not waste any more of my time on this. I just had to get a few things straight before I did so................................................
Perry, Don't you think there's a big push by some to get xbow statement out before the members get polled? I know their using the 'it's got to be out before the show season'. Did we have a xbow statement before? What's the big rush now. To me the saying is going to be, "Well we got all them new xbow members signed up at the shows so what can we do now, we can't retract the statement now". Even though 2 guys on the board are gone, they were not the only ones supporting xbows. The patch, the new mission statement and xbow statement to me seem to still be going. They want that xbow statement ASAP (my guess in the next week) and before the members have a say or find out? Ed
The patch and the mission statement were “tabled” as far as I know .......................and they DO plan to poll membership on several issues.
Perry, we can't all agree on everything or it would be a boring place.
I do have to ask - do you support adding crossbow members to the UBP?
Anyone check out the new 2023 Airbows yet. 1000fps. Now legal in 13 states. Are any of the Airbow companies owned by the same group that owns xbow companies?? Did you know the best way to control adversaries (like the UBP) to these above, is from within.
Ed, Unfortunately we have a good idea how this will play out. The UBP doesn’t have the money to get influential politicians on their side.
I hope there is some way to successfully stop the air bow.
From: Phil Magistro19-Jan-23
Perry, we can't all agree on everything or it would be a boring place. I do have to ask - do you support adding crossbow members to the UBP?
Phil- this might surprise you, but there are already members who use crossbows and have for some time. A lot of us are getting older and dealing with aging joints and injuries. I've been dealing with a chronic shoulder problem for 3 years now. It first developed in november towards the end of the regular archery season. Couldn't draw my bow- turned it down as far as I dared, and still couldn;t draw it. Looked for an infinite edge bow(the ones with draw weight of 7-70 lbs) and could NOT find a left handed bow, so I grudgingly got an entry level crossbow from Cabelas so I could hunt the late season that year.(and killed a deer with it)
By the next summer the shoulder was better and I was back to shooting my compound and recurve which I did for 2 years. Then at the end of this summer right before the early season started, my shoulder flared up again and could not pull my compound. Again was forced to hunt with the crossbow for most of the season until early November when my shoulder healed up to the point I was able to lower my draw weight another 3 lbs which was JUST enough to (barely) draw my compound. I sighted it back in on Nov. 11 and on Nov 12th I killed an antlerless deer with it. To say I was ecstatic is a huge understatement! Ask Smoke, Andy or Darryl how distraught I was most of this season having to use a crossbow............................................ That deer was just a button buck, but it is one of my most memorable deer because I was able to be hunting again with my compound! 2 days later I was able to grunt a running buck(very nice 8 pt) to a stop at 20y, but never got a chance to draw on it before it walked straight away from me. A few days later it hit me that if I had still been using the crossbow, it would have been a dead buck! But I never even gave it a second thought.....................was just so glad to be hunting with my COMPOUND.
One day I will probably sell the crossbow and buy an infinite edge, as I have come to realize how awkward and clumsy hunting with this thing(crossbow) is. I guess I am just so used to using a vertical bow, I just can;t get used to using it.
I think you will find a lot of other members who are in a similar situation......................
And YES, I have taken a lot of "ribbing" since I was so adamantly ANTI-crossbow in my younger days! ;-)
So, was that a "Yes" to Phil's question?
2 seasons ago a 9 yr old boy used his #35 longbow and killed a doe. 3 seasons ago as an 8 yr old he used his #35 longbow and killed his 1st deer- a doe
I’d bet a youth longbow weighs less than #3 total. I bet a crossbow weighs much much more. Seems to me the way to go if a feller is injured is to go with a min draw weight longbow or recurve yes? I put my sons crossbow together in less than 10 minutes and it shot bulls right out of the box.
4 weeks ago while trying to start an old 8hp generator, the first pull on the starting rope tore something in my shoulder. I felt a tear. Dr gave me some tests and told me I strained it. Rest but still use it she said. So it hurt so badly I was terrified my archery was over. Can’t pick up my pillow while in bed. BUT one doesn’t use arm muscles to draw his bow. All back muscles. It had to be proven. I ventured out to Strictly Sticks and terrified as could be I drew my #52 Teton Blair and proceeded to shoot it for probably 50 shots. Shot the whole course last Sunday. Gee I could practice!
Why in the world would a person use a bulky hefty 1 shot weapon that someone has to draw back for him instead of using a #35 bow that’s light as a feather?
FWIW-Perry during my time at the zoom meeting, I offered some ideas of mine and it never got past the big tent rainbow wall to even be discussed. There were no options to even START the process to take its course. so much for that eh? Now maybe the 5 or 6 items may AT LEAST get heard....
Perry, That doesn't surprise me at all that some members use a crossbow. I completely understand aging and other issues that impact our shooting having lived through them myself. I know some hard core traditional shooters that had to change to a crossbow or quit hunting.
It's not right for anyone to criticize a bowhunter that is forced to either use a crossbow or quit hunting. I would never expect that if any UBP member has to change to a crossbow for physical reasons they would need to leave the UBP.
But I do think the UBP should not be actively recruiting crossbow shooters that do not have a physical limitation.
We had a viable group of crossbow members, some are maybe lifetime members, and we were big supporters of the Pa Sportsmen for the Disabled. If I’m not mistaken we even took part of the purchase of one of the very first automated hunt worthy wheelchairs with that group, of which it appears they no longer exist. These members and the above group became UBP members because they wanted the advantage of a crossbow for the disabled hunters to be exclusively for the disabled.
Perry,
Your shoulder issue was the exact reason xbows were permitted for those with a physical limitation. And I beleive the UBP's position supported that. The broader question is, shoud the UBP be actively recruiting able bodied xbow shooters?
As a side note, the PA legislature didn't make the decision for UBP. UBP is a private organization with its own rules and by-laws. Just like P&Y. Pretty sure they exclude xbow kills from their scoring ranks.
Its kind of like the NFL. You have guys who tweak a pinky finger and are out for 6 games and then you have guys who play through the pain. It's easy to say "my shoulder hurts" and I've heard it from a lot of guys as the reason for switching to a xbow but these same guys swing a hammer for work and play golf every weekend. I'm positive in a lot of cases guys just want to go to the xbow because its easier and use the shoulder as an excuse because they don't feel like listening to the feedback. I was told in 1993 (I was 30 at the time) that my shoulder was that of a 70 year old and I needed surgery. I found a specialist at Penn who told me I could either fight the pain and eventually it would go away or I could have surgery and still have pain. I chose not to cut and within a year, the pain slowly went away and I can still shoot a 70# compound or a 55# recurve. Never stopped shooting my recurve during that period either. My shoulder pain came from running and indicating true 1200 pound/60 inch diameter pieces of plate steel in lathe.
After looking at this thread looks like we have 13 different posters. Of them 13, it looks like we have 3 that support the UBP supporting xbows. My guess is it would be that way across the UBP member base.
Supporting the xbow statement for the up coming shows would be wrong. I guessing if it's put into effect we will hear that we signed up xbows members and we can't retract it now. They (UBPxbow supporters) will not take into consideration that we signed up many members (the most) and many life members because of the xbow fight.
First off, I'd like to thank those UBP folks who worked to get us the extended seasons and fought the good fight to keep crossbows out of the archery season. As we know, money talked and the crossbow is now a legal weapon in the archery season. No doubt many older members have a sore butt that the crossbow shooters are now enjoying the seasons that the old guys fought so hard for. Maybe the UBP is at a crossroads and needs to decide to basically move to a more fraternal organization, who enjoy shooting with traditional or compound bows, with campouts, golf shoots, 5C doe hunt etc. Sticking with their original mission of expanding and protecting our archery seasons, is benefiting the crossbow hunter, who may be as much as half the archery tags sold. If the UBP is fighting for their seasons, maybe it's time to accept them as members. I myself, would rather see the UBP go the fraternal way. If there comes a time when the Game Comm says " these archery kills are getting out of hand" maybe then the UBP can get back in the legislative game and work for vertical bow shooters. Ron Woodcock life member
Good point Woody. We are not going to get rid of it....... totally:)
Dale and Griz- it's not a matter of pain...........................I have a pretty high threshold!(walked 2+ miles on a snakebit leg once ;-) It just gets to a point where I can;t pull a bow to full draw.(a matter of weakness, not pain) The shoulder is a complex system of muscle and tendon that work in combination in different planes. Certain muscles work more in different planes. You can be strong in one plane, but sometimes not another. That's my case. If I keep my elbow down close to my body and pull, I am pretty strong- but once I raise the elbow(as in to draw a bow) I just don;t have the strength. Also, it takes totally different muscles to pull a bow than it does to cock a crossbow. You basically keep your arms locked and use your lowerback muscles when cocking a crossbow(almost like doing a deadlift in power lifting)- totally different than pulling a vertical bow. So that's how someone would be able to use a crossbow but not a vertical bow.
It seems to me there are a small(but very vocal) group of ANTI-Crossbow folks in our organization and another small minority that say we are not going far enough to accept crossbow users with open arms. But why can;t we as an organization just try to stay neutral on the subject? And accept bowhunters into our organization whatever form they choose to use? And if we don't..................................then how are we to regulate that? We no longer need a Dr's evaluation to use a crossbow in the archery season....................................so how do we determine who has physical need to use a crossbow? And then what about guys who use them only in the late season because it is too dark to practice with their vertical bow after the time change and too hard for them to pull the bow when they are all bundled up and joints are stiff from the cold? I had a talk with a member the other day that is following this thread and wrestles with that very scenario and wonders where he fits in? IMHO, it would just open up a can of worms if we were to try to keep crossbow users out of our organization.
Perry, I don't care myself what you use. What I care about is that an organization that stated it was a handheld, hand drawn stays handheld, hand drawn. So if we need them, we have them to back it's members. You say it's a small number, so if so why was it that they did "not" want to poll the members on this very subject, when other wanted to?
*** I hope that if they do poll the members that it's a impartial poll and not worded with one side wording. Do you agree on that? *** I hope that they inform us of when this poll will take place.
Other states that have xbows seem to be pushing back again them mainly because of the technology that comes with xbows. The DOW in Wyoming did a study comparing xbows to hand drawn and it stated that xbow have a far technical advantage with far greater range than hand drawn bows. There was a reason why a xbow company pulled an add about there 200yard xbow.
Also Perry where did you get your numbers on UBP members supporting Xbows?
Ed- that's just observation on my part........................from talking to members over the last several years at shoots, shows, and UBP events.
Just curious how other state orgs are "pushing" back against crossbows in states where they are legal to use in all archery seasons?
Perry look or contact state bowhunting orgs in like states of Wy, Co and Montana. I know there been restriction on how wide a xbow can now be. Some states will not let you use one in archery season until you get a certain age. I believe electronic scopes is a fight in some to keep out or to eliminate. Bowhunters of Wyoming, state that if you don't shoot a hand held, hand drawn bow they don't want you as a member. Start doing some research, call some orgs. Some will be very helpful, some nice and some just plan rude.
So let me preface by saying that I TOTALLY AGREE with what Perry said above. Also, that I'm not a crossbow fan nor have I ever been. I've been a member of the UBP for +/- 30 years (longer than I like to remember). I would only use one if it meant that I would still be able to hunt. With that said I have been following these top two threads for the past several weeks as I'm sure many have. It appears that things have finally come around full circle. I'll try to explain the reality of the situation that the UBP finds itself in. Currently nearly half of all hunters in the state carry an archery license. Of those that have an archery license, probably half of them use crossbows and the numbers are growing every year. Like it or not, BY DEFAULT, the UBP (whether they are members or not)) is the only statewide organization that is defending and promoting all things string, stick and blade. The operative word here is "statewide". Now it seems that we are at a crossroads and have to make a decision what direction we are going to move in going forward. Times change and if our organization is not willing to change with the times then the organization is doomed to FAILURE. We cannot live in the past. We currently enjoy the most opportunities and best and longest hunting seasons in my lifetime largely due to the efforts of the UBP and that is something to be proud of! There are numerous organizations out there that are actively trying to take away or lessen the seasons and opportunities that the UBP has worked so hard to obtain. Sure, there were compromises that had to be made along the way as we now have firearms season overlapping into what we all thought was "OUR " season along with the inclusion of crossbows. It is no longer "OUR "season and it will never be again. Like or not- get used to it. Now with the inclusion of crossbows and the UBP representing them (by default) along with all other archery equipment, it gives the UBP a level of overall POWER that it has never seen before if we are smart enough to take advantage of it. As with all organizations, there is POWER in NUMBERS!! especially in dealing with the state. We actually need those numbers to protect that which we have all supported and worked so hard to obtain. It's pretty tough for the PGC or anyone else to take away those accomplishments when you represent that number of hunters. It appears that there is a small but vocal fraternity of purists that are hell bent on living in the past. My suggestion is to "EMBRACE the SUCK" and adapt to the changing times. Protect what we have got and promote what the UBP has always promoted - more opportunity for archers of all persuasions and support of science-based management principles. I don't think the rejection of crossbows is a hill we want to die on. We tried 10 years ago and failed - suck it up buttercup!!! I believe that a bigger threat is more inclusion of firearms during the archery season. That may be a hill worth dying on. I will say this. I would sooner share the woods with a few crossbow hunters who have embraced the concepts of true archery hunting than hordes of more rifles and shotguns running through the woods during the nicest time of the year. If you think about it, most of the crossbow hunters are converted rifle hunters. They have been smart enough to stand back and see what we have been enjoying for years. and decided to get some of that. I can't blame them for one New York second for that. The crossbow is still a short-range weapon and I'm sure a lot of these crossbow hunters are just as selective as most of us as to what they will shoot, and many may only fill one doe tag and call it a year. Plus, they are able to truly identify between a button buck and a doe. I'm sure you have all heard scores of rifle hunters complain that they see no deer in rifle season but every year I see more and more bucks surviving the rifle season. Take their money as members - nobody says you have to love them. Maintain the POWER!! EMBRACE the SUCK! - IT COULD BE WORSE.
Perry, the only way the UBP can stay neutral is if it gives up being a bowhunter organization and becomes an archery season proponent. That would mean including every legal weapon permitted for use now and going forward.
In my view it really shouldn’t matter to the UBP if the PGC considers crossbows as legal weapons as long as the focus of the UBP is hand-held and hand-drawn bows. If the UBP wants to represent all folks hunting in archery season then just shut down and find partner organizations and create a new group.
I do like the idea of becoming more of a fraternal or social organization until some big issue comes along.
X-MASTER, All do respect but is this what you men by short range?
How about the airbows not legal in Pa yet or the now new xbow pistols, legal in Pa (can't find anything saying they are not) that are shooting 420fps??
Hey, don’t forget you can shoot 3in groups at 100 yards!!!! What now 200?
As UBP members, does anyone think crossbow shooters will fight to stop more technical advances in crossbows, or air bows from becoming legal? Excluding the physically disabled or aging folks, I think most crossbow shooters are in it for ease of use. Not the challenge of bowhunting.
Well Men, a few things here since the "Sky is FALLING". > I can remember when all the trad guys said all the above about compound shooters. It was the end of the world!! I would remind you that if you don't have the strength in numbers, the UBP will become an inconsequential fly in the ointment and will fade away into the proverbial sunset. There is basically no way to stop or prevent technological advancements - it's the capitalistic way. With the power of numbers, you can express your displeasure and negotiate with the "powers that be" and hope your argument has enough standing to persuade them to your position. Beyond that the only thing you have left is your "VOTE" and then again without the power of numbers, it will mean nothing. A prime example of that is Sunday Hunting. The Farm Bureau is making a strong case against it with their votes and control of property. > If the UBP wishes to become a social/fraternal organization then you can sit around at the bar and reminisce about how things used to be while the world leaves you behind. > I think you'll find that most crossbow shooters can't or won't be able to afford shooting devices that cost $3-4 + K without the extra accessories just for a little extra performance. I could be wrong, but I have found that most archery enthusiasts and hunters in general are quite frugal. Remember that most deer in this state are killed at less than 100 yds. in all seasons. > We all know that speed is not all that it is cracked up to be. QUIET is much more important when it comes to hitting any animal at any range. Sound and movement will do you in every time no matter how far the animal is. After a few failures, even the dumbest crossbow shooter/hunter will figure that out. > Beyond that I stand behind my observations and assertions that I made above until someone can prove them wrong. Have a good day.
If you want a crossbow org......FRIGGIN GO START ONE!! You have my blessing!
But......It’s way easier to lay upon the sunny hill that someone else- the UBP membership, built.......
X-Master, my complaint has been the lack if transparency from the former President, the snake-oil salesman former Legislative Director/VP, and the BOD. My complaint is also with the Regional Directors and County Reps who went along with keeping this from the membership after they found out.
If the membership votes to "Accept the Suck," fine, I'll formally renounce my membership and y'all can Suck Together. I have a feeling I won't be the only one leaving.
Woody, we know the CB crowd wants no restrictions on technology which means the UBP would be required to "Accept the Suck."
I will add just one more thing here. Give the situation the "Shoe on the Other Foot Test." Just imagine for a minute that all the UBP decides not to represent at least some of the interests of all the crossbow shooter/hunters or somehow- someway not accept them into the organization (haven't figured out how you propose to do that yet) and they form their own organization (United Crossbow Hunters of Pa.) and start promoting their own agenda. They will lay the UBP to waste in a very short time and won't look back for even a second just through the power of their numbers now and increasing in the future. You could see reduced to seasons much like the muzzleloader / flintlock community because the organization has become so short sighted. Just say'in! I don't want to see this or want a crossbow org by any means, but you have to think out of the box people!!! The world doesn't revolve around the UBP or anyone's antiquated attitudes. Another thing to remember is that with the power of numbers, of all stick and string factions, the PGC will be forced to recognize the archery community as more of a management tool there by increasing opportunity for all. They don't really care how the deer are killed just as long as they are gone!!! We all need to give all this some deep thought and open our minds up to change.
X-Master, it pretty obvious your pro crossbow. I know I we are not going to change that. The UBP stated it was a hand held hand drawn organization. Why do you feel some folks on the UBP board didn't want to poll the membership about Xbows? Why when I wanted to give a presentation on xbows at the January 2022 meeting on xbows I got an email stating it was canceled? Yes the in-person was canceled but the zoom was not and I was setup for zoom and everyone I believe knew that. I talked a few times to one board member on this before that meeting. That member knew actually what I was going to talk about. Why was I told lies back then, which bought the pro crossbow guys about a year, because I didn't bring them up after that conversation because I thought that was not an issue. I asked for minutes and Treasures reports and I have not receive them yet, but I'll give a few more weeks to see if I get them. I was told that other members of the UBP ask for information on the new patch design, crossbow statement and new mission statement and have not received them as of yesterday 1/24/23
With crossbow technology advancing yearly, what industry would benefit from not having a organization dedicated to handheld hand-drawn shooters in one of the lagest markets they have? I stated here on bowsite that crossbow would be able to shoot 150yds by 2025, boy was I wrong about that.
If read above I posted about Wyoming DOW doing a,study on crossbow vs Hand drawn. It pretty much say that crossbows and handheld are not equal. Look it up!
X-Master, do you think that the UBP should do an impartial poll of its members before going any further with crossbows?
Thanks and Respectfully Ed
Thank you Steve for your insight................I too am wondering how people propose we keep those dang crossbow guys out of our Organization? Or how we even know who they are? And what exactly IS a “crossbow member?”
Seems there is never any shortage of criticism, but very few answers to these critical questions.....................
OK Teeton, with all due respect, I am NOT Pro Crossbow in any sense of the word. I am PRO - REALITY. I stated above the reality (as I see it) of the position the UBP is in now. I am also PRO - Transparency. I would hope that you and any and all members that requested info from the executive leadership of the UBP get that info post haste. It should be available to all members in good standing. I am also in favor of a membership referendum on this subject to settle it once and for all. Nothing should be held in secrecy. That is where good organizations go to die ie: our federal government. The BOD should not and does not have the power to dictatorship rule over the organization. They are basically there for control over large expenditures and by-laws. Other things such as what has been discussed here should be left up to the general membership. It is up to them how they can and should get more input from the general membership, but it must happen. This is obviously a fundamental problem here from what I am reading above. Whether it is on-line polls or hard copy polls, the general membership has the right to vote on most all policy. It may take some time to complete but I haven't seen anything that happens here with speed. A few individuals should not be making all the decisions. The meeting minutes and treasurers report should be sent to all members in good standing a short time after all meetings- not just those that request them. It is unrealistic to expect the membership to travel up to 4-5 hrs. to attend a meeting. It may have been all right in the infancy days of the org. but not now. The lack of transparency needs to improve before we can move forward. Perhaps that would open some people's eyes up to what kind of shape we are really in financially and administratively - I myself have no idea due to the lack of transparency. I don't think that is too much to ask. I stated above that distance and/or speed means nothing to me in the hunting situation and I explained the reasons why. As far as Wyoming is concerned, anyone with half a brain can see that there is a HUGE difference between crossbows and vertical bows - not even a question there but as I stated above, the PGC could care less as long as the deer are killed. I would direct you to Ohio and review their management plan and how they are using crossbows and vertical bows as management tools. Big difference between there and here. Like Perry, I still have seen no answer from anyone as to a plan or method to screen crossbows out of the membership. I think it would be impossible and if they want to join so be it. Their money spends as well as mine. It is up to an active membership to keep them under control. - that's the democratic way. Thank you
Perry would you post the Crossbow statement. patch idea and new mission statement for the folks here to read?? Ed
Bob McArthur, renounce your membership is a win for the crossbows guys. As I feel they want as many of the opposition guys on crossbows out of the way. I'm sure they have a warm fuzzy feeling to your renouncement. Please think that through. Ed
Ed, I'm okay if the membership votes to be inclusive of able-bodied crossbow users. I'm equally okay with walking away from what would then be an organization that doesn't represent me, nor my beliefs.
Bob said; "Woody, we know the CB crowd wants no restrictions on technology which leans the UBP would be required to "Accept the Suck."
This is one person from the crossbow crowd that actually does believe that restrictions may be appropriate. The "airbow" was brought up. The air bow is an air rifle that shoots an arrow as a projectile using compressed gas. It should be regulated as a air rifle. I would support their use where air rifles are legal. I would not support air rifles that shoot arrows, also known as airbows, being legal in archery seasons and would actively lobby against that as those arrows and not being driven by energy stored in drawn limbs.
I would also oppose crossbows that get their energy from springs, pistons or other methods of propulsion other than drawn limbs. The Lancehead crossbow being an example.
Ok Bob, I understand your point.
X-Master, I didn't see your post to me,, Thinking we started writing at similar time and I did't see it. I check this thread when I come to my computer to do work. I'll get back later. Ed
X-Master said: " Just imagine for a minute that all the UBP decides not to represent at least some of the interests of all the crossbow shooter/hunters or somehow- someway not accept them into the organization (haven't figured out how you propose to do that yet) and they form their own organization (United Crossbow Hunters of Pa.) and start promoting their own agenda."
As the past Vice President and one of the founders of the Pennsylvania Crossbow Federation, I can tell you with certainty the likelihood of that happening is slim to none. While there is a segment of the crossbow community that is very passionate about what they do, the sport of hunting and conservation it is a small minority. We grew quickly, but when the fight ended, most of the members were only in it for the fight and left shortly thereafter. Promoting the sport and promoting crossbows as a hunting tool was not high on their list of priorities. Most just wanted to hunt with one themselves and that was that. Every state and national crossbow organization has either folded or barely exists. The largest national organization folded. There are some passionate crossbow folks out there. I am one of them.
With all of that said, your "reality" approach is pretty much spot on. I don't see how an org screens prospective members based on what weapons they may choose to hunt with on any given day. An org can certainly remain focused on promoting hand drawn in the presence of game mission but has to understand that some members will eventually use crossbows or may use them now at times. Some may choose to use them exclusively but still respect those that choose hand drawn equipment. Ultimately, the archery season in this state includes crossbows so if the org is lobbying the PGC or state officials, crossbows are part of that equation. Working to promote hand drawn archery can still co-exist.
Teeton said " I stated here on bowsite that crossbow would be able to shoot 150yds by 2025, boy was I wrong about that."
I could hit pie plates at 150 yards 10 years ago with my crossbow at the time. Good compound shooters could as well. The "new" claims of 100-200 accuracy are much ado about nothing. Horrible advertising and probably results in some horrible shooting at game unfortunately. If game was being easily harvested at those extreme ranges and that type of shooting was commonplace, then it would be much ado about something, but it is not.
Dave— good to see you! You have posts in the other thread.
I don’t know how if I do . It was something I posted in this one.
I don't see an issue with keeping a mission statement of promoting hand drawn vertical bows and accepting people that use crossbows. The mission statement says "we are promoting hand drawn vertical bows" and if crossbow users want to join in that mission why deny them? As has been said, their money spends too and as Perry has pointed out how are you going to police this? If a person takes a crossbow out one week and a compound out the next are they going to get kicked out and dues refunded? Are you going to go by the honor system there? The organization should using dues and money to promote legislation and seasons scientifically that work with hand drawn vertical bows. If the PGC decides that what is good for hand held vertical bow users is also fine for crossbow users that is their own and separate decision.
You are under nockraker in the other
Chris- our mission statement never said anything about "hand drawn vertical bows".....................................
The United bowhunters of Pennsylvania is a non-profit organization dedicated to the preservation, promotion and protection of bowhunting opportunities in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The UBP supports game management based on sound biological principles and a “resource first” philosophy.
As the past Vice President and one of the founders of the Pennsylvania Crossbow Federation,
That explains a lot. Shocking.
Was wondering why your interest in this and all things UBP were so attractive.
Thanks for the clarification.
Rut, you sure about that? At one time the PGC DEFINED archery equipment as "hand drawn in the presence of game" and that was our (the UBP) main point in fighting xbows. It was also a standard message to potential new members at shoots and shows. This was what we were fighting to maintain. It may not have been spelled out in the mission of the UBP but it sure was implied for a very long time. I know for a fact that it was a big reason that I joined, became involved and spent countless hours working at shows and shoots. I am not alone in that and truly believe many members joined for the same reason. To act as if it never existed or meant anything is simply incredible.
Perry, Please post the present mission statement, the one they want to change to. The Crossbow statement and the patch change. I feel it should come from someone in the UBP's inner circle . Ed
5C said; "Was wondering why your interest in this and all things UBP were so attractive."
That was sort of the case when I was much more involved during the crossbow wars. I even had lunch with ED Wentzler in Harrisburg during a PGC meeting after I testified. Interesting guy. The flint knapping is impressive. My interest in "all things UBP" has greatly waned. Now, it is more of stopping in from time to time and seeing whats up and who is having some successful hunts. Sporting orgs such as the UBP do great things. Is it my hope that the hate continues to decrease, acceptance increases and hunters spend more time working with each other instead of against each other while promoting what they love to do. Sunday hunting and hunter recruitment and retention comes to mind............
"hand drawn in the presence of game" To me that's what bowhunting is all about. I do believe a good archer can shoot as well as a crossbow shooter, even at long ranges. But laying a crossbow scope crosshairs on a whitetail, versus drawing back on a whitetail is a whole different ballgame. To me, that's why I think a crossbow is a short cut to bowhunting. I won't go as far to say, crossbow shooters shouldn't be accepted as members of the UBP. Maybe don't ask, don't tell. But our focus should be on "hand drawn, in the presence of game"
Griz- I’m well aware of how archery USED to be defined! I joined the UBP well before the crossbow wars. And in fact I have used that definition hundreds and hundreds of times myself prior to, and after crossbows were legalized. That’s part of the problem- it was IMPLIED, so it was never actually written into the mission statement- there was no need to!
Ed- as you know, the BOD is still discussing many options with regard to the mission statement, crossbow statement and logo.(including keeping them the same- unchanged) It was discussed at length at the annual meeting and other than Art Keefer, I don’t remember anyone on the ZOOM link asking any questions or providing comments. IMHO, if anyone had concerns, they should have brought them up right then and there.
Like I have said before, this is UBP business and as such should not be discussed on a public message board. If members have concerns they should bring it up thru the proper channels.
So Perry your saying that they are not trying to have a crossbow statement for Harrisburg show next week? Also why does Board members have more right to whats hoing on than just members??
If it wasn't for this site (bowsite) no members out side of the UBP's inner circle would have any knowledge of what is going on. I'm also 100% sure thats what was wanted by most of the inner circle..
Like I have said before, this is UBP business and as such should not be discussed on a public message board. If members have concerns they should bring it up thru the proper channels.
^^^^THIS^^^^^^
John , how else can us members chat among our self. Will the ubp start a message board for us to chat on that? Look at other threads and you will see you posted ubp business. Now that your on the board or will be is there, a change ? Also do you know if the ubp plans on having an xbow statement for the up coming shows? I know other ubp members have recently sent emails to the ubp and have not received answers on them emails. Eduh
Times 3 on a chat forum on the UBP site.
Ed, those are all good questions, however as a rookie just trying to learn what's going on, I do have some ideas for this very type of interaction. Getting it off a public forum and having members access is a starter. Will let you know.
John I do agree on not chatting ubp business on a public forum. But, let me say we had no other choice. I was contacted by 2 members just yesterday on ubp stuff. Thier emails have gone unanswered so far. I mentioned about a ubp chat site to Bill V, a while back. I have not hear a thing about it. Heres the thing, its my belief that the ubp does not want it's members to know whats going on. I asked Perry to post for our members here to see about the , xbow statement, new mission statement and about the patch. He has not posted it and may I ask why it's a secret? These guys emails asking these same questions have gone unanswered.
I am open to chatting with you privately if you would like to.
To you and all UBP members have a wonderful day. Ed
"Like I have said before, this is UBP business and as such should not be discussed on a public message board. If members have concerns they should bring it up thru the proper channels."
Bravo sierra!! Love ya brother, but on this we do not agree. That's like saying there should be no public comment on any forum about bills before congress. The board was anything but, and my guess is, if the Bowsite hadn't brought these issues to light they would still be operating behind closed doors. Send the Board the links to these threads.
I see some of you keep saying that UBP issues shouldn't be addressed here. For those that weren't around when this forum started, the PA Bowhunter's Forum was a joint effort between Pat Lefemine and the UBP for PA bowhunting and UBP topics. There were extensive discussions about how the UBP could address the crossbow battle and other legislative issues. The original editor for this forum was designated by the UBP.
To say UBP items should not be discussed here isn't in line with how this forum was originally set up and used.
Phil, with much respect, I disagree.
John, what Phil said is factual.
No disrespect taken but I was here when that happened. I was editing the other Bowsite and Leatherwall forums and Gary Chiaruzzi edited this forum. After he left I picked up editing this forum.
Did we not have our logo here once? Thats a question not a statement.
Did we not have our logo here once? Thats a question not a statement.
What is going to be said at the Harrisburg show on what the UBP stands for ? I will plan on stopping by and asking. The answers I get will determine if I still want to be a life member. I have had good memories as a county rep also the fellowship with members all across the state at county 3D shoots and shows only to see this organization compromise its mission statement. I still have my UBP plate on my truck and when asked what the UBP stands for I say I do not know now...but I know what they did stand for. ..Nocktaker it is good to see you back.
My disagreement was not doubting the factual part; however my objection was airing UBP business on a public forum. Perry is correct, and in many aspects about how we interact with each other even in good faith, but the way this is being viewed by outsiders who may have been on the fence about joining. So, it is not all about secrecy, it was more about growing our ranks and having new bowhunters or bowhunters looking to join and reading some of these posts. Sorry, I disagree.
We used to have “rooms” for monthly meetings.
I’m 100..... do I get a prize?
To all UBP members: We are currently working on a new crossbow policy. We are keeping our current mission statement "The United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the Preservation, Promotion, and Protection of bowhunting opportunities in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The UBP supports game management based on sound biological principles and a "resource first" philosophy."
Patrick Schild Office Manager United Bowhunters of PA
Preserving, Promoting & Protecting Bowhunting in Pennsylvania
907 Derbyshire Ave Mechanicsburg, PA. 17055 [email protected]
http://www.ubofpa.org
John, there’s no problem with disagreeing. I’ll offer this - if the UBP was working on extending bow season right now and had a sympathetic ear in the legislature you can bet this and other Internet forums would be flooded with requests for members to write letters and make phone calls and this forum would be a prime vehicle to get members involved. Getting members involved works both ways.
Transparency is essential. You can’t ask members to join discussions when someone or some people think it serves their interest and suppress discussions when someone or some folks worry about how it looks.
Unless the mission statement and focus of the UBP changes, taking any membership money from crossbow shooters by even inferring that this is the organization that represents them is disingenuous. Crossbow shooters may benefit from something the UBP does but today the UBP is not a crossbow organization. And, while a crossbow is a legal hunting weapon, it it not a bow.
Your organization's input affects and impacts all Pa. archery hunters(and now maybe crossbow hunters too). It should be public knowledge. I have to wonder what you groups positions would be today, had Bob and Ed not brought the issue up.
Phil. I agree that it is not a bow. And Bob, I will not argue that point, however it was brought to light does not mean it will not be addressed. It just means, that like every org there are different views within a collective, that does not mean all of them turned a blind eye to it as it seems. Moving on from it and that right quick will be the mission.
I have something to ask Pa Bowhunters. You said the UBP was Dedicated to Preservation ,Promotion and protection of Bowhunting. How is it that we let the inlines / guns in the Bowseason? To me that’s not Preservation or Protection of Bowhunting in this state! I would rather fight something and lose it then give in and lose it!!!!! IMO
Since when is October and early November "bow season". The fall is typically hunting season where many species can be legally hunted by different methods.
With steadily decreasing hunter numbers and a deer herd that can grow exponentially in a couple of years I can see the PGC giving more “hunting opportunities” in the coming years.
I don’t know what that looks like but it would be nice to have a longer statewide archery season rather than a longer fall muzzleloader season or the introduction of new weapons prior to the rut.
From: Teeton26-Jan-23
John I do agree on not chatting ubp business on a public forum. But, let me say we had no other choice. I was contacted by 2 members just yesterday on ubp stuff. Thier emails have gone unanswered so far. I mentioned about a ubp chat site to Bill V, a while back. I have not hear a thing about it. Heres the thing, its my belief that the ubp does not want it's members to know whats going on. I asked Perry to post for our members here to see about the , xbow statement, new mission statement and about the patch. He has not posted it and may I ask why it's a secret?
First off- IF it were a secret, then it would NOT have been discussed at the annual meeting where any member had the chance to participate(in person OR by zoom). Secondly, our Winter Banquet just got cancelled and our office manager is a part time position- Pat has been very busy dealing with all the communication and cancellations that has come from that.
dpms ,where have you been?! It has been since I started hunting . We shared it small game hunting . Now they leave high powered rifles with leave on the trees to me it would be a safety issue!!!!!!
Phil, The way I see it yes the Hunter numbers are dropping! If that is the case then instead of putting firearms in then they can give more tags to guys that still hunt.
From: Phil Magistro26-Jan-23
I see some of you keep saying that UBP issues shouldn't be addressed here. For those that weren't around when this forum started, the PA Bowhunter's Forum was a joint effort between Pat Lefemine and the UBP for PA bowhunting and UBP topics. There were extensive discussions about how the UBP could address the crossbow battle and other legislative issues. The original editor for this forum was designated by the UBP. To say UBP items should not be discussed here isn't in line with how this forum was originally set up and used.
That may be the case Phil, but I know for a fact not EVERYTHING was discussed openly on this forum. I was involved heavily in the crossbow "battle" over the years and I know certain things were held back and only discussed among the "inner circle" because we didn't want to tip our hand to our strategy.
I'm sure you don;t discuss your family disagreements over a public forum, do you?
From: Phil Magistro26-Jan-23
John, there’s no problem with disagreeing. I’ll offer this - if the UBP was working on extending bow season right now and had a sympathetic ear in the legislature you can bet this and other Internet forums would be flooded with requests for members to write letters and make phone calls and this forum would be a prime vehicle to get members involved. Getting members involved works both ways. Transparency is essential. You can’t ask members to join discussions when someone or some people think it serves their interest and suppress discussions when someone or some folks worry about how it looks.
Unless the mission statement and focus of the UBP changes, taking any membership money from crossbow shooters by even inferring that this is the organization that represents them is disingenuous. Crossbow shooters may benefit from something the UBP does but today the UBP is not a crossbow organization. And, while a crossbow is a legal hunting weapon, it it not a bow.
Phil- there is a BIG difference between requesting members who agree with our position on a certain topic contact their legislators or the PGC to voice their support(or NON-support) and getting into detailed UBP business on a public forum. That is what the BOD meetings are for and what every MEMBER has access to.
And like it or not, we ARE representing crossbow hunters by DEFAULT. Whatever gets passed to benefit bowhunters in this state benefits ALL bowhunters! So why SHOULDN'T we accept $$ from crossbow hunters who are already benefiting?
It's evident that a lot of you are stuck in the past........................................this is 2023 and times are a changing! If we try to keep the UBP stuck in the year 2010(or earlier) it will surely die! : (
Perry, we will have to agree to disagree.
I’m sure some strategies regarding crossbows were held close to the vest but that was after the membership indicated their desire to keep crossbows out of archery season. In this case the leadership was doing its own thing completely oblivious to what the membership thought. I hope you can see the difference between this discussion and that one.
And of course I don’t discuss family issues on a social forum. But my family isn’t an organization that people pay money to join as members. The board owes it to the members to ensure transparency, not stifle discussions.
Do you really want to be supporting their actions where they took it upon themselves to set a direction for the organization without knowing what the paying members thought?
Phil, I know exactly what went on and I am convinced the current BOD guarded against allowing our organization to go in the wrong direction. Without airing our dirty laundry for all to see, suffice it to say, those that would have led us in the wrong direction are no longer in any leadership position in the UBP! As such, I feel we are moving forward in a positive direction now.
I do agree transparency is important and we need to get back to polling members on specific issues.
I’m sure this will become evident in the very near future.
Perry, You said, "those that would have led us in the wrong direction are no longer in any leadership position in the UBP! "
In your opinion, what is this wrong direction you speak of??
Right now I don't "think" all that led us in the wrong direction are gone, But, I hope I'm wrong.
I'll know more after I get the minutes of the meetings I asked for a few weeks ago.
Perry, I’m sorry to say this ! But I think you got this wrong. The way I see the is that when the UBP was started was the right way to go. That’s why you had a lot of members now the numbers are dropping out they don’t want what is happening with the UBP. Back when I was a Country Rep. I called the drop list and asked them why they dropped. You know I was pro UBP back in the day ,But now no! I think the people they got now is destroying it! IMO P.S. The DHP is the same way ! I know for a fact that they had good people in there that they pushed away because there is a click and they wanted to do it all!
I imagine the club officials are scrambling now to get things in order after a couple people resigning. I'm sure there aren't people knocking down doors to volunteer their services. From my experience in other organizations, it's a thankless job. Seems like there are big decisions to make concerning crossbows. Wondering what other states bowhunting organizations accept crossbows? Does the UBP need to accept them to survive? Could the UBP survive as a fraternal organization, as hand drawn hand held bow only? Whatever way they go, I certainly don't want to see the UBP fail.
The UBP has been going down for years ! They have been living on past accomplishments and now giving away what they fought for years . They let all the new seasons in and they want to know why they can’t keep members.
Dave, you say "they" let all the new seasons in, who is "they"? The PGC? Last time I checked the UBP was not in charge of seasons and bag limits. However, your focused on what we had no control over, 13 years ago, we fought and lost that battle 13 years ago. What new seasons are you speaking of? Archery bear seasons? Shortening safety zones, Florescent orange restrictions for Archery?
John...You guys never said a word in opposition to inlines coming into the October.
Like I said they ! The UBP did what to stop it?! Every time they came up and said if we don’t go along with it they will take time away! Well guess what they did anyways. They left all the guns in! Now the UBP membership is going down.
Dave, the Disabled Hunters Program is one of the leading organizations in this country for providing experiences to hunters with disabilities. We have done nothing but try to grow our volunteer base in the DHP to assist with all of our events.
I invite you to attend our annual banquet on April 15th, to see how our amazing team of volunteers works together to host one of the premier events in the sport.
Bob, PGC told us the muzzle loader thing in bow season was based on science because bow hunters did not shoot enough does before the rut. And just like the crossbow thing, shut up, we aren't going to listen to you.
Art, who are you (Collective) going to listen to? Annual members? Life members? The PGC? Politicians?
I'm starting to doubt things The Game Commission are telling me. Like about the turkey population. No bodies trapping or getting to shoot Predators by chance, because unless you got a furtaker license, you cant. Predator populations are way up .. Fishers not sure how they are playing into turkey populations. Was put here to control porcupines. I never saw that many porcupines. . I hear fishers kill alot of turkey, do they?? Whats one of the main stays of marten. ( Marten new Predator the game fishing is going to reintroduce),, one of the main stays is rabbit's. Is the Game Commission bring a balance that "hunters" aren't needed?? Maybe we need to question the Game Commission on what its long term plans are? In the west they brought back wolfs to bring back wolks. Now many areas have none to little deer, elk and moose. Question,, why does the Game Commission allow you to shoot coyotes year around, and with out a furtaker license?? Maybe they need to stop coyote hunting and trapping in the special reg areas. That sure will cut back on deer numbers and with the deer numbers cut back. I bet it would cut back in $$$ from licenses sold.
From: Bob Hildenbrand04-Feb-23
crickets
Sorry Bob, I needed a break from all the negativity and answering the same questions over and over again..................................
I have been involved with the UBP and DHP for well over 20 years and I can tell you I NEVER saw anyone turned away that wanted to help. But I have seen people walk away from the UBP after having personal disagreements.............................too bad folks can't put the personal stuff aside and just focus on the best interest of the organization! And unfortunately, I think some folks took this opportunity to jump on the bandwagon and criticize the UBP because they had their own personal ax to grind over things that happened many years ago............................
But it's time to put those differences aside and come together for the common good. Otherwise this organization is doomed. Let's roll up our sleeves and get back to work.................................................
Bob Mac, not sure what you mean. I try to listen to every side of things before I decide which way to go. When I worked for UBP I always felt that you guys were all my customers and that you came first. I didn't have a vote in anything tho.
I was responding to Bobby H. because we did oppose them until they said listen to the science. WE couldn't refute the science so we didn't waste anymore time on the subject.
From: horsethief51 08-Feb-23
Bob, PGC told us the muzzle loader thing in bow season was based on science because bow hunters did not shoot enough does before the rut. And just like the crossbow thing, shut up, we aren't going to listen to you.
Art- it’s not nice to tell Bob to “shut up!” LOL! : )
Whether or not the UBP opposed inlines in October is a moot point. The UBP could never make a case that the PGC would accept that the bow season is “sacred”. The PGC is interested in expanding opportunities for all hunters and keeping the deer herd at the level they feel is appropriate. The real challenge will be coming as we see fewer hunters killing less deer. Then the PGC will be forced to increase hunting opportunities. There is a point where increasing the antlerless tags will not matter if there are fewer hunters. I doubt there is little appetite from the PGC to let bowhunters kill more bucks by extending bow season.
I believe there will be a role for the UBP to play in discussions with the PGC to offer more bowhunting opportunities but ultimately I don’t see everything going the bowhunter’s way. It would be nice to see a five-year plan for recommendations to the PGC
If that came out wrong, that was what the PGC told us. I'd never tell such a wonderful guy like Bobby anything like that. Phil's right and we are looking at getting the season extended up to rifle season.
Art- I knew what you meant after re-reading what you wrote- but it COULD be viewed as you talking to Bob instead of what the PGC was telling us........................................ ;-)
Phil- buck kill will not be an issue as bowhunter numbers decline since we can only shoot 1 buck per season. If we haven't killed too many up to this point, it won;t be an issue in the future.................................
I hope so Rut. I remember the biologists worrying about killing too many bucks pre rut. Now that crossbows are so popular I could see many more bucks being killed in bow season even with dwindling hunter numbers.
Rut, I hear there is a bridge for sale in New York. Asbestos was once considered scientifically safe and you know what that did to a lot of people. If the UBP follows the science, who in the UBP is double checking the science? The PGC is not infallible and their "science" could be extremely wrong in some cases. Going along with something because an agency says it is the way to go is like Disney following the woke agenda.
I remember that Phil. But that was many years ago and apparently the current PGC Biologists are OK with the buck kill now. I hate to agree with Gene, but you can’t argue with the facts. And if we can’t listen to the biologists, who do we listen to?
"I hate to agree with Gene, but you can’t argue with the facts."
Don't hate it. Embrace it Perry, lol.
Please note that the Game and Fisheries committee has much power over the PGC as a whole. IE: the Flo orange issue was powered by the G&F committee to offer a PGC Law enforcement division retiree a present (aggravating bow hunters) for retirement. The influx of the cbow was influenced and pushed still today by the G&F committee. The PGC is supposed to be independent but our state govt. officials like controlling the purse strings to force behavior.
Perry, I’ve always put my trust in the biologists. They use science, not money, power or politics to make recommendations.
I would trust a biologist over politician but be aware biologists of the PGC have not always put "science" first. They were caught fudging harvest numbers in the past by a very astute former commissioner who called them out on it at a meeting for cherry picking percentages and applying them to other data sets. Also, when the PGC was changing our deer seasons around every year and hunters were beginning to state that there were too few deer, the deer team made a recommendation for a season change based on their assertion that if hunters saw more deer due to hunting pressure, that hunters would get the perception that there are more deer out there to harvest. No science behind the recommendation.
Trust but verify.
While I agree with the message above you do know that Barry killed a buck at 72 yards once, right?
Both Barry and Gene also seemed to feel that shooting at running deer with arrows was a good idea.
.....and they practiced it beforehand.
Runing deer with a bow, is anything except ethical. Storied careers or no, that is what give bowhunters bad names, that kind of thing right there. I do not care who you are and how good you think you are, ethics and respect go out the window to take running shots at deer with archery equipment. There I said it.
You did say it. But who defines ethical? Many places have proficiency tests. If a person passes one does that mean it’s ethical for them to shoot at that distance? And what about one yard more? Would that be ethical? If the answer to the first question is yes then what if a person passes a test on running deer? If you’ve seen any of the Wensel’s videos you’ve seen how they practiced shooting at a rolling, bouncing tire.
Of course that was more than a few years back when Barry, his brother Gene and all of us we were younger. I’ve seen where now Barry has made a statement that he wants to only shoot bucks at close range - under fifteen yards and lowering that to under ten.
I suppose shooting a arrow at a flying pheasant or a running rabbit , groundhog , etc with a bow is unethical also.
Haven't we all done some questionable things when we were younger? Some turned out regretable. Sometimes we got lucky. Part of growing up and maturing. No need to cast stones.
All right, with archery eq even under ideal conditions there is not a large window of opportunity. And a moving target such as a deer greatly reduces that opportunity. proficiency tests aside, (that was a great measuring stick) can you all say that your going to give up the opportunity to make a clean ethical kill for a running shot? And an analogy for rabbits, groundhogs, or pheasant is moot because the vitals are even that much smaller. Go nuts, my point is that the Wensels can shoot them all they want, and film all they want, how many off camera did they not recover, how many ran off with arrows stuck out of them and not recovered? That they will not film I am sure, but you guys love it and condone it. Not trying to take your opportunity away, not telling you that you can't just not understanding how some of you think it is okay and condone it.
That’s a pretty big assumption about “… but you guys love it and condone it.” What I said is that I don’t believe it’s unethical for someone to take a shot at running animals if they are proficient at it. That surely doesn’t mean everyone. In fact, there are a number of folks that shouldn’t even be shooting at standing game with a bow.
I think you are off base being critical of the Wensels because you think something. You could just message Barry and ask him if there were deer running around with arrows sticking out. He would tell you the truth.
Also there is a big difference between shooting at moving targets or animals with a recurve or longbow versus a compound.
