Sitka Gear
CPW recommends keep resident OTC Elk
Colorado
Contributors to this thread:
KHunter 03-Jun-24
KHunter 03-Jun-24
Cazador 03-Jun-24
Jaquomo 03-Jun-24
bad karma 03-Jun-24
Paul@thefort 03-Jun-24
Paul@thefort 03-Jun-24
Stix 03-Jun-24
Glunt@work 03-Jun-24
Hoot 04-Jun-24
CO Oak 04-Jun-24
Hoot 04-Jun-24
Glunt@work 04-Jun-24
grasshopper 04-Jun-24
Hoot 04-Jun-24
grasshopper 04-Jun-24
Hoot 04-Jun-24
grasshopper 04-Jun-24
Glunt@work 04-Jun-24
LUNG$HOT 05-Jun-24
Glunt@work 05-Jun-24
COLO 3-D 05-Jun-24
Orion 05-Jun-24
Jaquomo 06-Jun-24
Orion 06-Jun-24
Paul@thefort 06-Jun-24
Orion 06-Jun-24
Hoot 06-Jun-24
KHunter 07-Jun-24
Orion 07-Jun-24
Paul@thefort 07-Jun-24
LungBuster 07-Jun-24
standswittaknife 08-Jun-24
Paul@thefort 08-Jun-24
KHunter 12-Jun-24
Cazador 12-Jun-24
MallardSX2 13-Jun-24
Jaquomo 14-Jun-24
COLO 3-D 14-Jun-24
Paul@thefort 15-Jun-24
Orion 16-Jun-24
KsRancher 16-Jun-24
Billincamo 20-Jun-24
elkman6768 21-Jun-24
elkman6768 21-Jun-24
Paul@thefort 21-Jun-24
Jaquomo 21-Jun-24
Jaquomo 21-Jun-24
elkman6768 21-Jun-24
Jaquomo 21-Jun-24
Glunt@work 22-Jun-24
elkman6768 22-Jun-24
elkman6768 22-Jun-24
KHunter 23-Jun-24
Serrano 10-Jul-24
Trying hard 12-Jul-24
From: KHunter
03-Jun-24

KHunter's embedded Photo
KHunter's embedded Photo
KHunter's embedded Photo
KHunter's embedded Photo

KHunter's Link
Thank goodness staff came to their senses. Now we need to show up to comment! Just reposting what Paul did so easier to read the most import parts. and to prove a link to the Jeff Davis memo.

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2024/June/Item.10_Memo_2025-2029%20Big_Game_Season_Structure.pdf

From: KHunter
03-Jun-24

KHunter's Link
Need to singh up by noon June 7 to give live public comment online here, or using the link button. also added:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfovzepp2J8v4zQdjx2IESiZpEuLvnKN-tKFw3q7T_mYtj1VA/viewform

When you sign up to give public comment, select agenda item 10c, BGSS as that is where this topic will be addressed.

IMO, One thing they left out of the memo is that RESIDENT participation will increase if they limit nonresidents when residents realize the quality of the OTC archery elk experience is much better, less crowed than what we see currently. I had abandoned to extent possible OTC archery elk in Colo in favor of better options.

The June Commission meeting is a hybrid meeting with the opportunity to participate virtually and in-person (the in-person meeting will be held in Montrose). Pre-registration via this google form is required for VIRTUAL comments; pre-registration closes at noon MT on Friday, June 7, 2024. All in-person comment registration will be on the day of the meeting at the registration table. For more information on submitting public comments, please visit https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/Submit-Public-Comments.aspx.

Each member of the public will be limited to no more than 3 minutes for oral public comment. Public comment will be time permitting, as guided by the Chair to ensure adequate time for meeting business. It is possible that not all who request time to speak will be able to as the total amount of time for public testimony will be limited in order to allow the Commission to conduct all of its scheduled business.

For those who sign up to provide virtual public comment, you will receive an email from CPW staff by Tuesday, June 11, 2024 with instructions for how to log into the virtual meeting.

From: Cazador
03-Jun-24
That right there should be why every swinging dick with a bow should be a CBA member.

#thanksCBA

From: Jaquomo
03-Jun-24
Yes. And the Colorado Resident Hunter FB group organized many speakers and a massive write-in and petition campaign too.

Many thanks to everyone who participated!

From: bad karma
03-Jun-24
It is an election year. 2029 will not be as pleasant.

From: Paul@thefort
03-Jun-24
Just to clarify. The June Commission meeting will be in Winter Park CO and NOT Montrose CO. Also expect to testify in person or virtually, for only for 2 minutes vs 3, because of the volume of persons wanting to testify.

From: Paul@thefort
03-Jun-24
The real question is: Of the 25,000 nonresident elk bow hunters, how many need to be decrease to solve the "crowding issue"? Will it be,10,20,30,50 percent?????????? 10% -NO. 20%= NO, 30%, getting closer. 50%, yep, at least. And any decrease will mostly happen in yearly stages.

From: Stix
03-Jun-24
Interesting. This may be the staff recommendation, but Comm. Haskett and maybe more might try to push all archery draw through. Dont let your guard down, let's not forget the early archery deer (Aug 15 start) was the staff recommendation but was shot down.

From: Glunt@work
03-Jun-24
Heres an example of what it takes to go from run of the mill OTC to pretty high quality elk experience. Not 2, 201 type hunting but low pressure, lots of elk and decent chance at 280-310 bull with possible bigger bulls in the mix:

Unit 61 and 62 are roughly the same size and share the same plateau. Basically the dividing road runs right down the middle. Unit 62 is OTC and had 2270 archery elk hunters. Unit 61 is a draw that takes many years and has 90 archery elk hunters. Thats minus 96% tags.

My biggest opposition to resident tags going all limited is it will be a big inconvenience without enough reduction in pressure to make much difference.

And a big enough reduction (50%?) means sitting out a few seasons between tags. Thats not appealing.

From: Hoot
04-Jun-24
They didn’t have to reduce the deer tags tremendously to have great deer hunting in CO when it all went limited, and the deer quality went up rather quickly.

I wish they would implement a 5 or 6 point rule for otc elk, the 4 point rule “to protect the younger age class of bulls” is a laugh, 2.5-3.5 year old bulls do the most breeding in co, we should be trying to get that up to 4.5-6.5…

It’s a limited resource, the tags should be limited, that’s my opinion.

From: CO Oak
04-Jun-24
When deer went totally limited tags were cut nearly in half. I asked this question of the CPW big game manager.

1998: 150,000 deer hunters 1999: 81,000 deer hunters 2023: 87,000 deer hunters

From: Hoot
04-Jun-24
Hmm, I didn’t remember it being that much, but still probably illustrates my point. Elk are a bit different than deer, but perhaps the unlimited hunting is just a terrible idea if now 25 years later we still have half the deer hunters we used to allow in this state…

It’s a limited resource, tags should be limited, regardless if we want to hunt every year or not. At minimum tag numbers should be limited at the DAU level, it’s absurd to pretend CPW can manage effectively without it. They’ll “take” it from us incrementally according to their language, but it would be better for the resource if they ripped the band-aid…

From: Glunt@work
04-Jun-24
In 1963 the deer harvest was 147,000+ with great hunting for a couple decades afterwards. Obviously harvest is a big factor but the muley situation has a lot of factors specific to them.

From: grasshopper
04-Jun-24
Going limited on elk does not translate into less hunters, IMO. You are talking about the CPW cash cow, and assuming they are ok with a pay cut. Quotas would remain high on elk, but now you are forced to spend points.

The only thing limited elk means at this point, is point creep in mid tier point units, and creation of a bunch of hunt codes that only nonresidents are willing to spend points on.

Case in point, unit 20 archery takes 2 or 3 points to draw its 100 tag quota. With limitations, 15000 used to be OTC resident archers with points will now compete for maybe 70 tags after the landowner draw. 15,000 nonresidents with points can now try to draw 20 or so nonresident tags.

Look at 69/84, it will also creep big time.

Bad idea, that's my opinion.

From: Hoot
04-Jun-24
And 60 years later, that’s obviously sustainable…

We should just go back to how it was in the 1700’s when we didn’t even have tags and we could kill more buffalo than we knew what to do with…

From: grasshopper
04-Jun-24
I've been here since 1984. 4 decades. We have had a mix of OTC and limited well before I got here, and 300,000 elk give or take.

What has changed? Well, we lost spring bear, now we have the start of a growing wolf population, we might lose cat hunting, and we have 300,000 elk. 3 million people then, now 6 mill.

In my neck, elk winter in loveland for 6 months a year, and sometimes near freaking I25.

I have no idea what your definition of "sustainable" is. Elk seem to be adaptable, we still have 300,000 if you believe the count.

The deer drop sucks, did limits work? I couldn't tell you. All I saw last year was a wonky 2 point.

From: Hoot
04-Jun-24
Steve, sorry my comment was about the 147k deer harvested in 1963.

All I’m saying is the resource should be managed at a micro level and not macro as it seems to be. They have no clue how many animals are harvested, their surveys are a joke. Limited tags, in whatever capacity, is the best way to manage IMO. I just wish they did more to increase the age class of bulls, that’s my personal preference.

From: grasshopper
04-Jun-24
I had 25 bulls in my yard one day this winter, I think 20-23 were spikes. I'd like to see a few more big bulls too, but apparently they live in the middle of town all winter and die, death by car. I did see photos of a few booners hanging out next to dollar general and king soopers in loveland on the net.

Maybe all the new people flooding our forests, along with wolves will make them a suburb and plains dweller 20 years from now.

From: Glunt@work
04-Jun-24
A lot of units are already draw for elk. If going 100% limited means current OTC units just become the same experience as the low point draw units, it's not worth the trade off in my opinion. The low point unit I have been hunting recently isn't any better and maybe not as good as the OTC spots I hunt when it comes to pressure or quality.

From: LUNG$HOT
05-Jun-24
That’s an interesting take Glunt. This year will be my 16th year archery hunting Colorado elk and before that it was all rifle or smoke pole. All that to say I’m now 40 and have been hunting here since I was just a kid. We’ve hunted in a LOT of OTC areas and several 0,1,2 point units. Of course some of those have changed from OTC to LE but you get the point. I’ve had some great hunts in some OTC units but by and large the LE draw units have produced better quality hunts in terms of elk acting like elk (even if there’s not piles of them) and waaay less crowding. IMO we’d be blessed if we can get our OTC units to line up with the LE units.

From: Glunt@work
05-Jun-24
To be fair I've only hunted a few low point units. I hunted OTC for years saving points. Wasn't catching up to the top units so spent them on 61 and then started trying some low point spots but mostly one close home. Your low point spots sound better than mine or I lucked into some good OTC spots :^)

My priority now is getting to hunt with my kid. With sports and school, time has been limited so a unit close to home makes weekend and day hunts easier.

From: COLO 3-D
05-Jun-24
Hoot,

There are 303,000 elk in Colorado, according to the recent numbers given by CPW. The herds are in good shape.

From: Orion
05-Jun-24
You guys actually believe that number?

From: Jaquomo
06-Jun-24
Up here in N. Central, the winter range aerial counts are dang accurate. I knew the biologist who did them until a year ago.

Problem is, how many of those elk are huntable elk during the season? North Park alone has thousands that live on the big private ranches and aren't accessible to the hordes of OTC hunters, resident and nonresident. Limiting NR licenses might bring fewer hunters. Maybe. But it won't change the huntable elk dynamic. We've watched it evolve since the late 70s, on National Forest, BLM, State Trust, and private ranches. What a change.

From: Orion
06-Jun-24
The counts down here are a joke. They fly the same little piece of winter range no matter what type of winter we are having. I take the counts about as seriously as the harvest stats

From: Paul@thefort
06-Jun-24
CPW info. Winter classifications – often thought of as “counts” – will take place December through February; utilizing helicopters and fixed-wing airplanes. These classification flights occur statewide. It’s not possible to count all of the deer and elk across the landscape, so Colorado Parks and Wildlife staff classify animals by age and sex to determine the health of the herds and to compare to objectives in herd management plans. These operations provide wildlife managers with supplementary data that is used to generate computer models that estimate wildlife population numbers and composition.

From: Orion
06-Jun-24
I think we are all familiar with their formulas, computer models, etc. at this point

From: Hoot
06-Jun-24
Look and see how they derive their harvest stats….

From: KHunter
07-Jun-24
Have y’all signed up to give public comment?

From: Orion
07-Jun-24
Yep and I will also be attending some meetings down here. You? You also coming down for any of the sheep projects down here?

From: Paul@thefort
07-Jun-24
The other Item we need to address and support is the Stand Alone archery deer season from Aug 15 - Sept 1. I have communicated with all of the Commission members to vote to place this Item back on the table, to really understand what this Item is all about, then then vote in favor of it. See you at the meeting . Paul

From: LungBuster
07-Jun-24
Thanks for that Paul reminder to everyone on the Aug deer. I also emailed the Commission when this 5 year plan started and then again a few days ago asking that the archery deer option in Aug be an option like it was years ago.

08-Jun-24
I love how they say monitor the "perception" of crowding....

From: Paul@thefort
08-Jun-24
TO: CPW Commission Date, June 4, 2024 Subject: Agenda item 10, BGSS Item 1.A, Proposed Stand-alone August 15th - Sept.1 Antlered Archery Deer Season

I, and others in the bow hunting community, am requesting that this item be returned to the table for further consideration as many of us in the bow hunting community do not believe that some Commission members understand the full concept of this item. CPW staff recommended this item to move forward to the final stage because they understood the concept fully. At the May Commission meeting, this item was voted to be removed from further consideration; a move that astonished many of us.

At the April Commission meeting, time 3:30 p.m., staff reviewed this item and presented a variety of statements and recommendations:

More important, staff addressed two Commission questions. The first concern was the possibility of antler velvet sale. Staff explained that current regulations do exist that address that issue which prohibit the sale and trade of velvet or of velvet antlers.

The second Commission concern was the possibility of early big game movement, to seek private land or other refuges, if additional bow hunters were on the landscape, especially deer and elk.

Staff stated that “license quotas are anticipated to be small to moderate and actual buck deer licenses would shift from the regular September deer season to this stand-alone season. Hunter pressure would be relatively low and would not affect animal movements in August. Staff also stated that the proposed season can shift some of the hunting pressure from the regular September archery deer season.”

Staff also responded, concerning pressured big game animal movement, “for this option, we (staff) to not have the same level of concerns and recommend that Alternative 1 move forward”.

It is worth noting that this stand-alone season is optional on a yearly, GMU/DAU regional basis, and recommended license numbers are totally in the hands of the Regional Staff who live, train, and scientifically understand the deer populations in those areas. It is also worth noting that the Commission will be approving those GMU/DAUs and the number of licenses available for those units. Again, these are not additional archery mule deer licenses but licenses which will come from the West of I-25 deer license pool that the Commission will approve.

Deer hunters who will be hunting this stand-alone season will only help to spread-out archery deer hunter participation and help relieve some of the pressure, “perceived crowding issue,” on the regular Early Elk and Deer season in September.

Another subject worth noting is the numerous High County Rifle deer seasons which occur in Early September and that these HC rifle Seasons also parallel the same archery deer seasons and in some of the exact same areas. By approving this stand-alone archery deer season in August, this action would greatly eliminate any conflict between manners (rifle/bow) of take which can now exist in the September Early Season.

No doubt, Colorado mule deer populations have been declining during the past 20 years, and many of the reasons for the decline are not related to actual hunting practices, as these deer hunting licenses are provided to assure an adequate mule deer population but also an adequate doe to buck ratio and fawn survival.

Factors which have been proven to add in the decline of the Mule Deer populations, are declining habitat loss, predation, weather, CWD, increased outdoor recreationists, competition between elk and mule deer for habitat, highway mortality. Colorado’s current mule deer population just might be the new normal as Colorado’s human population continues to grow along with the increase in infrastructure which the public demands.

Colorado bow hunters are conservationists, and we are supportive of sound scientific management practices which CPW staff does provide. We care about the big game resource, and we put our money where our mouths are by supporting, with time and money, organizations such as Mule Deer Federation, Mule Deer Association, Rocky Mountain Big Horn Sheep Society, Ducks Unlimited, Wild Turkey Federation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.

The Colorado bow hunting community would appreciate it if you would revisit Agenda Item 10, BGSS Item 1.A, Stand-alone August archery mule deer season and forward this item for additional review, discussion, and passage.

From: KHunter
12-Jun-24
Was nice seeing Haskett get crammed down TWICE today as Nonresidents lost OTC archery elk and Residents retained OTC archery elk.!

Haskett fairly jumped to front of the line in a rush to make the first motion to propose limited Res and Nonres OTC archery elk statewide and lost 6-4 so that was a close call.

Not satisfied, she then asked that Otero's the motion to approve staff recommendation to retain Resident OTC 'statewide' archery elk and limit all Nonres archery elk be amended to instead apply that on a DAU instead of statewide basis. She lost that as well as staff pointed out the rats nest of issues it would bring. Then she proposed mandatory Hunter surveys the motion and lost that as well.

9-1 vote in favor of keeping Resident OTC archery elk and making all archery elk limited raw for Nonresidents!

Summary: A lot of great public testimony today but pretty sure my cute "baby mountain goat hopping around" video looping in the background is what won the day. LOL, kidding (pun intended).

From: Cazador
12-Jun-24
Good news! Hoping the next step is knocking the tag levels back for NR for each GMU. Either way, net gain for residents.

From: MallardSX2
13-Jun-24
I found it especially touching seeing Danny Farris cry during his testimony on retaining resident otc archery for him and his family. How pathetic.

From: Jaquomo
14-Jun-24
Mallard, you're getting into spam territory now. Why don't you start a thread about it?

From: COLO 3-D
14-Jun-24
MallardSX2, Keep trying, you might find support for your opinion somewhere, it won't be here though.

From: Paul@thefort
15-Jun-24
Mallard, the only thing pathetic is your post. You have no friends here.

From: Orion
16-Jun-24
Mallards is pulling the same crap on monstermuleys and Rokslide. Why does an East coast whitetail douche think he knows about Western hunting. Stay in your lane. By the way if you apply in any other western state your a hypocrite.

From: KsRancher
16-Jun-24

From: Billincamo
20-Jun-24
MallardSX2, You obviously do not know Danny Farris as you wouldn't run your mouth and accuse him of being pathetic. I can promise you are not man enough to make one hair on Danny's a_ _. Do yourself a favor and stay clear of Colorado and Danny as it would be quit emabarrassing for you to face him man to man and explain how you got your a-- kicked by someone who you referred to as "pathetic" or how you ran away with your tail tucked from someone you called "pathetic". I always find it amusing how people like you are afraid to use their real name and instead hide behind names like Mallard (talk about pathetic) while insulting people they have never met and don't have the balls to insult face to face. Stop acting like a 30 something year old keyboard warrior living in his parents basement, sleeping all day, and gaming all night. Grow up, get a job, get a life, and drop a 100#'s. Then maybe come out to Colorado and hunt the mountains with real men.

Bill Pellegrino

From: elkman6768
21-Jun-24
I’d watch being so harsh on NR hunters.

Dr Dave Samuel (archery hall of fame) taught a class at WVU back in the 90s stating we need to stick together.

As an 11B Veteran I can tell you together we stand and divided we will fall.

How long till the antis get it on a ballot that they don’t want hunting on federal land. How many of you hunt federal land. Maybe an east coaster will say I agree why do they get to hunt federal land yearly and I might make it once in a lifetime.

Not trying to piss anyone off. Just saying you might go easy on NRs.

Some of us like our rights and Colorado isn’t the same state it was in the 90s when I lived there.

Da11BElkman

From: elkman6768
21-Jun-24
I’d watch being so harsh on NR hunters.

Dr Dave Samuel (archery hall of fame) taught a class at WVU back in the 90s stating we need to stick together.

As an 11B Veteran I can tell you together we stand and divided we will fall.

How long till the antis get it on a ballot that they don’t want hunting on federal land. How many of you hunt federal land. Maybe an east coaster will say I agree why do they get to hunt federal land yearly and I might make it once in a lifetime.

Not trying to piss anyone off. Just saying you might go easy on NRs.

Some of us like our rights and Colorado isn’t the same state it was in the 90s when I lived there.

Da11BElkman

From: Paul@thefort
21-Jun-24
"being hard on nonresidents", Not. Actually limiting Nonresidents will actually benefit non resident and resident hunters by reducing the number of archery elk hunters. In the future, non residents may actually agree that this was a good move. We are all non residents when we hunt another state and have to abide by their regulations and fees. Colorado is not the only state that has and will make changes.

From: Jaquomo
21-Jun-24
Doesn't matter what's on the ballot in CO, nonresidents can't vote here.

From: Jaquomo
21-Jun-24
Doesn't matter what's on the ballot in CO, nonresidents can't vote here.

From: elkman6768
21-Jun-24
My issue was we need to stick together. Not saying not right for residents to have better/1st choice. Was just meaning to check attitude some. Just go easy on the gloating or you might find NR that aren’t using BLM or NFS land wondering why any states residents have more use on Federal Land. Than an out of stater.

I don’t think Colorado residents paid for or maintains without any other states taxpayers for the federal land most of you are hunting.

Maybe over crowding at National Parks should be looked at to be more beneficial to residents of the state.

As stated numerous times I have no issue with any of the quotas, antler restrictions, all draw units. I wouldn’t shoot a buck less than a 3x or less than a 6 pnt bull. Killed hundreds and more about kids and grandkids for years. Colorado giving youth 2nd drawing is one of the better states in my opinion.

Been on this site since the late 90s or early 2000s.

Finally retiring in a year and would go to Colorado, but wouldn’t take the chance on a blue state. Been living in a bluer state for too long and want to get back to a red state.

Da11BElkman

From: Jaquomo
21-Jun-24
Elkman, strange, your registration says you're from Colorado?

Congress would have to restrict hunting on National Forest and BLM, and that isn't going to happen. Nonresidents can do anything residents can do on Government owned land.

From: Glunt@work
22-Jun-24
Having a bunch of public land in a state has trade-offs. Not being able to use 43% of Colorado to own, develop or generate property taxes at the level private ownership does is part of why living in the other 57% is darn expensive.

It is a benefit to have access to a lot of public land fairly close. Imagine how much hunting access everyone would have if every state only had 1/2 their land private.

From: elkman6768
22-Jun-24
Jaq Mentioned above on site since late 90s or early 2000s. Left Co for Utah in 2001. Then WV until 2014 and WA state ever since. Don’t know where profile is any more on this site to change or update.

Sure if you can see Colorado in there it must have how long I’ve been on. Just don’t post often. Read regularly and get others looking at it. Been a fan of Paul’s for decades and appreciate both Jaq and Glunts posts.

Da11BElkman

From: elkman6768
22-Jun-24
Jaq Mentioned above on site since late 90s or early 2000s. Left Co for Utah in 2001. Then WV until 2014 and WA state ever since. Don’t know where profile is any more on this site to change or update.

Sure if you can see Colorado in there it must have how long I’ve been on. Just don’t post often. Read regularly and get others looking at it. Been a fan of Paul’s for decades and appreciate both Jaq and Glunts posts.

Da11BElkman

From: KHunter
23-Jun-24
……

From: Serrano
10-Jul-24

Serrano's Link
Draw Process Working Group Recommendations on the Reissue Process July 2, 2024

From: Trying hard
12-Jul-24
I totally get it that " out west people" would like nr tags limited.....where I live it's not an option to hunt sheep,goats,mule deer or elk...we have what we have to hunt and I'm ok with that.

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