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Thoughts, opinions, experiences???

If you take a frontal shot, you might find that elk, but there is a greater chance that bad things will happen. That animal deserves better. If someone wants to take a frontal shot on an elk, stick with a rifle.

"First of all, there is no large 'opening' into the heart/lung area. You have to penetrate the rib cage."

I don't believe that is correct.

That being said I think the key determinant in ANY shot should always be 'what is the margin for error?' To me personally a hunter should always hold out for the shot with the greatest margin for error; meaning which shot type allows the greatest deviation from 'the sweet spot' while still producing a clean, quick kill.

With a bow this in unquestionably the broadside shot in which you have about an 8" window to execute a shot which produces the desired quick, clean kill.

Obviously there are 'success stories' (for example, Stan Potts) about the frontal shot. It can be done, it has been done. One has to wonder however about the 'UNsuccessFUL stories'; how many? Would you want to become one?

Like anything in life there are consequences to this decision. I would hope that at the very least one would weigh them heavily before CONSIDERING the shot, let alone taking it.

extra butter on that popcorn, please.

Don't worry, you aren't the first to ask.

I depends upon the situation. Is is better to take a 10 yard frontal shot standing shot when at full draw, or a 40 yard shot on a broadside bull with his near leg slightly back? Which shot has the greater margin for error. How well do you know elk anatomy? Is the elk frontal but quartering, or head on? Are you in a treestand? Is the elk on alert? How far is he? What type of broadhead are you shooting? (COC or mechanical). An elk is a huge animal and will you get the penetration to reach the vitals and beyond?

Your need to draw an imaginary line from the intended point of impact and extend it through the animal. Will hit the needed vital organs?

Admittedly, it's not a shot for everybody, though. It requires anatomical knowledge that many hunters simply haven't taken the time to learn.

Second, and some may scoff at this, but I think that many hunter's have conditioned themselves to freeze when an animal is facing them. It goes against every instinct in their body to prepare for a shot, draw, aim, and release when an animal is head-on and is close enough for an ethical frontal shot. I've seen this several times while guiding in spot and talk situations. Many times the hunters were honest enough to admit they froze instead of looking for the shot as they lamented over a missed opportunity.

Of course, this is just one man's opinion.

GG

I would never take it given my experience and skill set.

Popcorn, no butter, with salt substitute please.

- no offense GG, but that buck is in no condition to talk. lol

Good point. I should have wrote, "The spirit of this buck can attest to that".

LOL!!

GG

Wow getting inside 20 yards with spot and talk is doing real good.... *S*... Terry

Inside 20-25 yards in the right conditions I would. Only elk I've shot like that was a cow that was near straight on but actually quartering hard. Arrow exited in the off side hindquarter. She didn't go 40 yards. I'd imagine about the same effect with a bull.

Shot many deer and sheep straight on. You have to make the shot though. Your kill zone has shrunken to a much smaller size. Not talking dinner plate, more of a saucer or even baseball on some animals. At 20 yards I'll take that all day.

You don't make the shot it doesn't much matter how they're standing.

Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated. And I know there is a search function, but sometimes fresh ideas and thoughts on a subject develop, that is part of why I proposed the question.

Confident hitting a 2 inch circle at 20 under field conditions, and that bull's pretty distracted.

Bigdan... Sweet!

Pretty much the same shot as if it exits in front of the shoulder from a quartering away I'd think. Lots of good things to cut in there.

Yes the bones are a bit heavier there but with a decent setup it shouldn't be a problem. All these elk broadhead debate threads? IMO these are the shots where a good well made fixed blade broadhead with some decent weight to the arrow along with a well tuned bow and maybe even a bit higher draw weight if you can handle it will prove their advantages.

Actually, it's between the bottom of the cervical spine and TOP of the ribs. But you can't get to the lungs from there, unless shooting at a steep downhill angle and his nose is facing straight up! There are significant arteries in that vicinity that will bleed him out quickly, and of course the spine, but they're very small targets. A frontal shot, or better than dead on is slightly quartering, should be aimed much lower than that opening just inside the front shoulder.

Is this shot for everyone? NO…!!

Those who aren't familiar with the skeletal structure of NA big game, and those who aren’t confident in their shooting ability should not attempt a frontal shot on anything but a Pine Chicken.

However, the frontal shot offers a target about the size of a cantaloupe, therefore it offers plenty of “space” to slip a broadhead through…even a mechanical. There is no shot offered the bowhunter that is 100%. There are too many variables that come into play. One of the toughest blood trails I’ve encountered was a broadside shot taken at 12 yards on a bull that lunged at the shot. On the other hand, the three easiest blood trail I’ve been involved with were all frontal shots taken inside 25 yards.

Learn the bone structure on Elk, and if you can shoot under pressure, this is a very doable and viable shot.

While definately not a shot for everyone, it is deadly when executed properly.

Another thing guys, think about what your arrow and broadhead will go through at 10-25 yards. I've seen arrows blow through propane bottles and bury themselves in cinder blocks. Ribs are not tough, the sternum and thick connective tissue in the dead center is. But to either side, your arrow will blow all the way through the vital organs. But! Trajectory is important! If the animal's hind legs are higher than it's front, depending on where you aim, the arrow could go very shallowly through the chest cavity and exit the bottom. Vice versa too and the arrow is too high. You have to be able to visualize the animals anatomy and where everything is based upon how the animal is standing.

I much prefer the quartering too shot. I aim just in front of the front shoulder so that my arrow exits in front of the back ham or behind the last rib. I have killed 2 of the last 3 animals I've taken with this shot. The third one was a broadside shot that was a little far back and hard to find (I did find it though).

The first was a nice buck. Hit him right in front of the front near shoulder and blew clean through and the arrow went another 15 yards. The shot was at 12 yards. Deer was dead within 80 yards on a dead run and within a minute.

The second was a cow elk this year. She walked straight up to me in thick brush. She was coming at me with her head down and unaware. Her ears were all floppy and hanging down. She got to about 10 feet, not yards when I nailed her. Same shot as the buck, arrow lodged in opposite hind quarter. She crashed off and was quiet within 4-5 seconds and dead within about 60 yards.

I will take this shot on close animals, I'm 100% with this shot. I believe in it for me personally because I know where to put the arrow and I know first hand what a sharp well placed arrow will do.

Don't confuse hogs with elk...

Above are the two bulls that went the farthest after being hit with that shot. In both cases I failed to get inside the cavity, but got either a jugular vein or a carotid artery. In each case, although both bulls went about 400 yards, I could see the blood trail for up to 20 or 30 yards in front of me at times. I have seldom had that happen on a broadside hit. It's the norm with this shot.

Just to give you an idea of how much blood hits the ground in a hit like that, I took a few photos for that purpose.

Here's what our antleope looked like last fall before we cleaned them up.

It's a much better shot than many understand, but like mentioned it still requires certain criteria to make it work.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Have a great bowhunt BB

Obviously there is a difference in opinion on what constitutes a legitimate shot on an elk. There are those that feel it's a good shot to take, and those of us that feel it is not a good shot to take. Since I'm the only one that has to live with the consequences of each shot that I take on an elk, I tend to go on the conservative side. If choosing to take only broadside or quartering away shots makes me ignorant, then that's something I can easily live with.

Frontal shots, Mechanical vs. Fixed, Whitetail vs. Mule Deer, East vs. West......what other topics should we expect in the coming weeks. LOL

The cervical vertabrae comprise the first section of the entire spinal column (followed by the thoracic and finally the lumbar for those dying to know). I thought it would not be necessary to specify that when targeting the opening between the vertabrae and the ribs that it would be glaringly obvious it would be below the cervical vertabrae and the bottom (of the chest cavity) where the ribs join.

Interesting you choose to niggle over vocabulary given your intial post was that there was no opening to shoot for and in fact the ribs needed to be penetrated. Neither of those statements is true.

Additionally the shot can be taken from off the ground as the cervical section of the spine curves upward from forward of the shoulder to its point of attachment to the base of the skull. A horizontal entry (from the ground) of course offers the largest portal of entry.

;0)

This would include the texas heart shot. You have to shoot perfect windage on both shots. You and only you can make this decision. I have been succesfull on 3 out of 3 so far but each decisson is different, Milt

Again, it isn't a shot for everyone as you have to have a good set of nerves. However, like BB, I am 100% on this shot and the bulls I have shot this way haven't gone far and left a blood trail you could follow without even bending at the waist.

On the opposite side, I have an acquaintance who is 0 for 2 on this shot. Of course he is also 0 for about 10 on broadside shots.

The frontal shot is like any other shot in bowhunting, in the fact that if you fail to hit the spot you’ll have a tough tracking job, unless you catch the jugular vein or one of the other major arteries coming out of the chest cavity, as was noted by BB. The same can be said with a broadside shot, or the quartering away shot…if you miss the “spot” you’re in trouble. I had a buddy last year that came back to camp all bummed out because he’d made a “perfect” broadside shot but couldn’t find his bull. After four hours and a mile later we found the bull, but the shot was far from “perfect”.

Don’t get me wrong by advocating the frontal shot. In past discussions some have said that we would be idiots to pass on other shots to wait for the frontal. That’s not the case at all. Most of us would rather have the ideal slightly quartering away shot opportunity, but if the frontal is what I’m presented, and the conditions are right (see Forest’s post), then I’ll be eating back-straps instead of wishing I’d have learned the critter’s anatomy.

I don't pass on the shot because "everyone condemns the shot". I pass on the shot because I choose to pass on the shot. If you and others take the shot, that's your choice. Let's leave it at that. I eat back-straps as well by waiting for a broadside or quartering away shot. To each his own.

Any idea what sort of critter that 3D skeleton represents? It's not an elk. I don't know what critter it is but it isn't an elk, deer, moose, ox, cow, or pig.

The ribs and sternum are not the same as an elk's.

The opening or "ring" formed by the first ribs in the 3D graphic is much larger than that of an elk.

The sternum of an elk does not protrude upward like the one in the 3D pic.

I am attaching a picture of a horse skeleton I found a while back. The configuration and size of the opening between the horse's first ribs is very close to an elk's. If you hold your hands in front of you and form a ring by putting the tips of your index fingers and thumbs together, that is about the same size and shape as the opening at the front of an elk's rib cage.

We always get some good back and forth discussion on the subject frontal shots!

Oh wait, there haven't been any. Hmm....

GG

If that is the case I'd flat out say you didn't hit them in the right spot then. Hitting them in the right spot will kill them quickly and 100% of the time. Period.

Key to it is you have to make the shot. Obviously if it went wrong the shooter did not make the shot. A poor broadside shot will lead to a long day too. Not the fault of the broadside shot selection is it?

I'd never pass on a broadside in favor of a frontal. It is just another tool in the quiver. The whole idea is to take out the vitals. There are many paths and angles to this end if you know what you're aiming for and can make the shot. I will take the first good shot I'm given I know I can make.

And Dr. Bob, there are more than two elk and a number of deer, antelope and few other critters that my arrow did not enter the cavity, yet if you keep your arrow near the center of the neck, it just seems that you can recover every single animal. That has been the case in the many shots that I have taken and that has been the case with every frontal shot I have watched others do and there have been plenty through the years.

The photo above is of a bull one of my hunting partners took with a frontal shot as I called the bull towards me. The bull walked right up to my buddy (10 yards). He had not drawn, so I bugled as he started to draw. The bull stopped and my partner hit just above the grapefruit hole that Huntsman talks about. We both watched the bull run up hill, stop, turn towards us and go down.

Several years before this bull, I watched another hunting partner drop a bull in his tracks with a front hit that was just above the opening.

For you guys who read this and remember the story about when the horse blew up, the guy in the photo with me on this post is that guy.

Have a great bowhunt BB

He is one sharp dude and as nice of guy as one could ever meet. He retired and moved to Wyoming and I can't draw a Wyoming tag, but I truly miss our great times afield. Some of my very favorite mule deer, elk and bear hunt memories happened with Clair.

Not many nicer guys walk the face of the earth than he.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

I've called in bulls for buddies and seen another 4 or 5 shot that way- down quickly.

Its a high % shot if its close- 25yards or so- and you are sure you can make it. One negative is you won't get many passthroughs.

"One negative is you won't get many passthroughs" From the blood trails I've seen with this shot, you don't need a pass through! All I can say is it's devastating.

I don't want to put a wierd spin on the taxidermist's post above, but I remember reading a Dwight Scuh book where he commented about rifle hunters complaining when they would harvest a bull with a broadhead in it. His take was that it was a tetiment in favor of bowhunting because the animal survived the marginal shot; the implicit message was that a rifle shot in a non-lethal spot would kill the deer by virtue of the tissue distroying nature of bullet impact, whereas a broadhed doesn't do that...

nijimasu, I'd take it a step farther and say many many more broadheads are found in scapula (shoulders) and backstraps than anywhere else. And a hard quartering away shot can slide around the shoulder and wind up in the front.

A butched up shot is a butched up shot.

Here's your Irish Elk skeleton. It sure looks like there's an "opening" to me.

GG

For those that are worried about the sternum, look at that Irish Elk. Look how low the sternum is and how it lays almost horizontal with the ground. If you're shooting low enough to hit that then you're too low anyway. If you hit to the side of that hole, it's going in.

There are things you can miss on a broadside, if you hit too high, you're in for a long track job and possibly a lost animal (been there). Too far back in the guts, that animal may be lost and it will die due to sepsis. Too far forward and you hit a leg bone and no penetration at all. I think there are more things that can go wrong with a broadside shot than a frontal. Not saying I would trade a broadside shot for a frontal but I won't pass up a close one.

Also, you know one of the best thing about this shot? If you bury your arrow, every movement that animal makes is tearing and slashing, working it's way around causing more damage.

Rattus, I will call your bluff on the above statements.

I am not saying you did not find broadheads in the area you suggest, but I am saying that I bet most of the broadheads you found in that area were arrows that hit coming from the side (broadside or quartering away shots) and not from the front as the shot we are discussing. Side neck hits are a whole different story with very low recovery rates.

I just don't believe that with such poor odds, I have been so lucky for so long, as have all my hunting partners. That just does not make sense. If what you are saying is fact, then the number of times I have taken that shot, I would have certainly wounded and lost a great number of critters. That is just not the case.

I am not suggesting or advocating to anyone to take the shot. I am saying, that under the right conditions, which I have stated many times, it is one of, if not the most deadly shots in bowhunting and carries one of the highest odds of retrieving the animal.

I will post a few photos and make a brief comment about each photo. These are photos of critters that I have taken with the frontal shot in years past. Most were many years ago before I truly understood how deadly of shot and how high the odds of retrieval were. A few will be more recently.

Here's one of a buck deer I took with my recurve in about 1969 or so. Look close on the front of the deer’s neck and you can see where the arrow hit. There were two bucks standing broadside to me, one facing one way and the other in the opposite direction. When I released the both bucks whirled and I hit the buck straight on in the neck as the photo shows. It was not an intended aiming point in those days, but as you can see, I retrieved the deer. In those days I was the only guy I knew bowhunting. There was no internet and so I learned as I went. I saw how much that deer bled and later put that expereince to work for me.

I called the bull in to me and like I mentioned he was basically straight on. I had not pulled me bow, so as I bugled I began to pull and he just stood there, 10 yards away while I pulled and bugled at the same time. You can see I found the bull!

Also in the photo you can see a few elk antlers that me and a hunting partner took on that trip. The nearest bull to the camera is the bull that I watched my buddy shoot that dropped in its tracks. It's the only bull elk I have ever seen drop from an arrow. That shot was less than 10 yards and front on. That bull never made it one step!

Here's one of a young friend of mine, Dustin, and his first bow kill that I guided him to last year. Dustin executed a perfect stalk, beating this deer to a spot as it moved to its evening feeding grounds. With the buck at 30 yards and moving directly at him, Dustin drew and prepared for the shot. At 6 yards, the buck looked up and spotted Dustin, but it was too late, the arrow was on its way.

If you look closely at the bottom of the photo, you can see the arrow buried to fletching just above the brisket. The buck lasted about 4 seconds and went less than 15 yards. I've never seen so much blood at a kill site.

You can bet this is one young hunter who won't shy away from the frontal shot in the future.

GG

Similar to BB's mulie story above, this bull whirled towards Ron just as he released the arrow. The arrow entered at the base of the neck where the hair color changes.

He never took a step after being hit

GG

After hitting the bull I walked up to where he had been standing. There was blood everywhere, so I signaled to my buddy to come up who had been watching from about 40 yards below me. When we saw all the blood I said we don't have to wait let's go get him.

That was a big mistake, because the bull had only gone about 20 yards and was standing there. When we started on the blood trail he took off and made it about another 40 yards. He had been standing just on the edge of the clear cut and made it into the nastiest down fall one could imagine. When he fell he wedged himself into stuff and we could not even move him. Had I waited just a few minutes he would have died in the clear-cut.

I then went to my antelope area and took my antelope with a frontal shot. That buck made it less than 2 yards, but was so bloody I never even took a photo as it was just too messy. For those listening and wanting to learn, when done right, this is not a low percentage shot. It, in my opinion, has far better odds than does the broadside shot.

The frontal shot is a high risk shot that is what? 50%, 60% sucessful (who knows) Is this acceptable? Why not wait until the angle is right and the odds are with you!!!

Don't mean to personaly offend anyone, just stating my opinon as all others have

It's pretty hard to teach an old dog new tricks. I shot a bull 2 years ago at 2 steps. He came in at close to a 30 deg. angle till he was maybe 10 feet, then turned slightly and I whacked him straight broadside. Every time I see these frontal threads I think back to that bull. It never entered my mind that I had a shot till it was all over. I just kept thinking "behind the shoulder" ...

The problem is training yourself to look for that shot.

This has nothing to do with luck. It has everything to do with hitting close the area you want to hit and truly understanding the anatomy of the critter you hunt. It also has noting to do with listening to people who have only hearsay experience!

I will end this with two more photos. Here's a buck antelope watering. This photo was taken just seconds before I put my camera down and picked up my bow and shot the buck with the God awful, low percentage frontal shot.

" I shoot them 1/2 way up the body in the neck under the shoulder blade"

From my limited experiences the frontal shot, when shot close is as far from a high risk shot as there is in bowhunting.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

However, after going back through my journals, I’ve been involved with 9 different elk that were taken with the frontal shot as I’ve shown with the photo above. All 9 were one arrow harvests, all were recovered within 60 yards, and every critter left a blood trail that a city boy could follow.

As many have touted before, if you don’t execute the shot, you will be disappointed with yourself. The same can be said with any shot you attempt. If you screw up the opportunity, if you’re not prepared, then the only one to blame is yourself.

I have only had one experience with a head-on shot. Several years ago, an aquaintance took this shot at about 15 yds. Cant' say where the exact placement was since I wasn't there. The shooter just said the arrow went in to the fletching. There was good blood at first, then it got less and less. 6 of us looked for 2 1/2 days and never did find him. So it does not all end up perfect. I'm not going to say bad things can't happen on a broadside or quartering away shot, but I like the odds ALOT better.

If everyone has had positive results with this shot, great. I am not trying to condemn anyone. I do have a theory, though. 10 yrs ago, I don't think this type of shot would have had the overwhelming support it does now. IMO, with the high speeds you can achieve with today's bows, some people get the equivalent of the rifle shooter's Magnum Syndrom. "Heck, this thing's got enough power, just hit 'em anywhere and they'll go down."

I guess my problem is this. Where does it end? Is the next "great" shot an eyeball? A nostril? Heck, there's even a post on this thread where someone is bragging about being 3 for 3 on intentional ass shots!

As far as all the posts showing how this shot did on a deer or antelope, they are non-players. That's like asking if a .22 is a good choice for deer hunting, and someone posts a picture of a bunch of dead rabbits.

Again, not trying to condemn. Just wanted to give a little more perspective from someone on the other side of the fence.

That being said, I would take the shots now that I have way better understanding of anatomy.

Ive got NO experience with a frontal shot, growing up I was always told "No" by my adult mentors and IBEF classes etc... But, I have learned after more than a couple of years hanging around this site, when BB, Bigdan and guys like them are are talking I best serve myself to close my mouth, sit down and listen until they stop talking.

If you have opportunity to take additional photos, I for one would really appreciate it.

No one is preaching that you need to take this shot, and again, if you’re not comfortable with your experience, shooting ability, nor your overall woodsmanship, several of us that have been around the block more than your one time would probably suggest that you DO NOT attempt a frontal shot…

Mike, you won’t ever take out both lungs with the frontal shot…that’s not the goal. The heart, one lung if the critter is slightly turned one way or the other, and the liver are the secondary targets, with the primary target being the arteries and veins branching off of the heart/lung area. Once you experience the blood trail that result from a correctly executed frontal chest shot, you too will be a believer. Not that you’ll need a blood trail to follw, because chances are darn good that the critter will crash before it leaves your sight.

Why is it that every thread that asks for an opinion has to turn into a pissing contest? There always has to be one that gets his feelings hurt because everyone doesn't agree with him.

When this thread asked for opinions and thoughts, I just assumed I was supposed to give MY opinion, not yours. I have been civil throughout this thread. I've given the reasons that I don't take this shot. I've also been very clear not to condemn those who do, and as I've stated...to each his own. Other's that disagree with me state their case and leave it at that. For some reason, you've chosen to make this personal. You just can't accept the fact that I don't agree with you. Twice I've been told that I'm ignorant and that somehow I'll reap for my "dumbassedness". I guess I should feel flattered that you care so much about my opinion that you even invented a new word just for me.

You have made several assumptions throughout your posts. 1) That I'm not familiar with the skeletal structure on an elk and am not confident in my shooting ability...Bad Assumption 2) That I pass on the shot because "everyone" condemns the shot...Bad Assumption 3) That I wish I had learned an elk's anatomy instead of eating backstraps...Very Bad Assumption 4) That I'm not comfortable with my experience, shooting ability, or overall woodsmanship...again, Very Bad Assumption.

Like I said, I have played nice on this thread. You either don't agree with me or you don't understand. The agreeing part I can't help you with. The understanding part I'll try to be a little more clear.

I feel that I owe it to every animal that I take a shot at to only take a high percentage shot that offers a great chance of quick death and recovery. IMO, I REPEAT, IMO the frontal shot does not meet that criteria. That is my choice whether you like it or not. If ya dont', can't help ya there. If you continue to take that shot, I hope you recover every one. Not for your sake, but for the animal's.

Now if you still don't understand MY OPINION, then I just don't know what to tell you. I'm through responding to your insults simply because I don't agree with you. I prefer to deal with adults.

Charlie Rehor, that's as cool a mount as I've ever seen! Kudo's to your AZ buddy.

On your buddies shot, I would bet the farm, that he hit too far left or too far right from your description. There is no elk on this earth that can take a front arrow to the fletch and live, if it enters the chest cavity.

I would bet the farm the arrow was off to the side and slid down the ribs and under the shoulder. In a case like that, you would have good blood early, gradually slowing, over a very long distance until the time you could no longer follow the blood.

Many years ago, early one evening, I sat down on a Wyoming hillside (the Hoback area) and was waiting for the elk to become a bit more active. As I was sitting there I heard a noise and turned to see a nice bull walking in a line that would take him about 10 yards behind me. I just sat there planning to get up and shoot him as he quartered away from me and after he had passed far enough he would not see my movement.

Once he got so far that I had to turn my head, I slowly turned it the other way and waited for him pass by. Then all of a sudden all heck broke loose right behind me. I was sitting just in front of a small Christmas tree and low and behold the bull walked up and started to rake his antlers on the opposite side of that Christmas tree. I reached over, grabbed my bow, slowly stood up and faced the tree. The bull had his head down raking with no idea I was even there. I stood there for what seemed like an eternity and finally he raised his head and looked right into my eyes. I could tell he did not like what he saw. He slowly turned and started walking on about a 45 degree angle away from me. I had already knocked an arrow so when he did that, I drew my bow and hit him perfect for a shot that would put my arrow through his heart.

He turned back to his right and ran down the steep hill I on which I had been sitting. I could see the blood right behind his leg. I had made a perfect shot.

I gave him half an hour and then went after him. For 200 yards I could follow the blood as fast as I could walk. But after 100 yards I felt a funny, unwelcome feeling in my gut. After about 400 or 500 yards I was about to walk out onto a bare ridge, but I could see a bull elk standing some 100 yards away. I put my binoculars on him and could see the blood on his side. I just waited and watched and finally he turned and walked down off the ridge into the trees, limping on that side on every step. I came back the next morning and followed him for at least another 1000 yards before I ran out of blood. Needless to say I did not find that bull. My arrow had slide down the ribs, under his shoulder (that is the reason he was limping) and never entered his chest.

That was the result of a close quartering shot with conned broadhead. I would bet that your friend hit off to the side and that his arrow did about the same thing my did but in the reverse direction. Does that make close quartering away shots unethical or shots that should never be taken? We both know the answer to that is no. And the same can be said about your friend’s bull and his shot. I hit that bull exactly where I wanted to, but still didn't get the bull. Had your friend hit the bull where he was suppose to, he would have found it and that's the difference in those shots, and yet many just can't accept something going wrong with a frontal shot, but can with a broadside or quartering away shot. I can't understand that. Can someone out there please explain that too me?

The frontal shot is a very deadly shot; there is no doubt about that. Experience has proven that to me. But I would be stupid to think that if I do it enough times, or my hunting partners do it enough time that at some point a critter will not be lost. I understand at some point it will happen, but from my years of experience it happens more on broadside hits and quartering away hits than it does on frontal hits. And that is the point I am trying to make.

I bet if you ask Big Dan, who has probably taken more elk with a bow than any other hunter on this site, if has lost an elk or two on any of his broadside hits or quartering away hits and his answer would be yes. I bet if you ask Huntsman the same thing, his answer would be yes. I just told you about the one experience I had, so you know my answer is yes too. Sadly that was not the only time I have lost elk with what I thought were good broadside hits. That has never happened to me on my frontal shots, so I know they are every bit as deadly as broadside shots, with less chance of losing the critter. And isn't that really what we are trying to achieve in bowhunting (harvest and find every critter we hit)?

Although antelope and deer are much smaller boned, an elk will die just as fast and that shot is just as deadly on them if the execution is correct. (And you also have a much larger target!) If you hit an antelope back or a deer back or make a bad shot on any critter for that matter, the chance of recovery is lessened considerably. The principles that yield the end result, be they good or bad, are the same with all of those critters.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

BB,

I know exactly what you are telling. I have a picture of bull that my son and I helped a friend recover. When we slept with bull and every hr. son would check and say dad his head is still up. I would ask friend are you sure hit him in lungs.

We recoverd Bull and arrow was still in him and looked like perfect lung shot. This was at night and son said cannot see his eyes. We stayed with him all night. Arrow had hit rib and slid under the wing.

Son was checking every hr. or so with 6 cell light. Long night and Pack. But like

bb

Thanks for the input from the highly experienced elk hunters.

The times that animals are lost are most likely when a shot is too far to one side where there are very small vessels and no real significant blood loss.

The heart sits dead center in the chest and all the way up front. If you shoot dead center you will penetrate enough to take out the heart or the major vessels coming out of the top of the heart.

Although this is an elk thread, the same principles apply and the same results can be obtained.

First I want to post a picture of my last year’s antelope blind. This photo was taken on the day we set up the blind, which was roughly 2-1/2 weeks before I shot my antelope. In that period of time the water had receded and the pond held about half the water it did on the day this photo was taken. This plays into my arrows path and thus ultimately where I want to aim.

Notice that the blind sits quite a bit higher than the water. Also notice how area going into the pond slopes down to the water. Therefore when the antelope water at this waterhole, they are below you and if they water across the pond like mine did, their hind quarters are higher than their front quarters by a good margin.

My antelope watered near where you can see the red x.

It can be harder to see on elk because of the hair on their mane. Harder to pick the correct aiming point.

The heart is lower and while it can be hit it's likely a bit low to aim at. You start getting into straight on brisket land if too low. The area as a whole is a smaller target for sure. Hence the close and controlled shot under pressure you know you can make.

From what I've seen of heart shots you usually don't get those gushing bloodtrails because when the pump is gone you have no pressure. All there is is some muscle contraction and gravity. Some heart shots are actually tough bloodtrails.

Medicine Bow, nothing wrong with passing on a shot you don't have a good feeling about either. It is just another shot in the quiver and like any other, not applicable in every situation. And even then not for everyone.

For any of you who have followed some of my shot placement threads, you will note that I like and advocate shooting farther forward on a broadside critter than what has been taught in the past. The reason I encourage people to do that is because far more good stuff sits forward than backwards. The bundle of vessels going into and from the heart will take a critter out faster than will any heart or lung shot. If one can stay close the center of the neck or get into the cavity on a frontal shot, it has been my experience they will be easy to find and usually you will see then go down.

I take the time to do this for educational purposes only. We all owe bowhunting and the critters we hunt a deep obligation to be educated in their anatomy and in our ability and understanding, so we can kill all we hit, and find all we kill. From my experience it has prove to be more effective in achieving that goal than does a broadside shot. But like every single person advocating this shot, it is a shot to be taken only if you are close. It's not s shot to be taken at any distance farther than 25 yards. I like mine coloser than that. Just as in broadside shots, too much can happen from the time a person releases his arrow and the time it takes to get to the critter. We all know the farther the shot the longer the opportunity for bad things to happen. So if you end up taking this shot, keep it close.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

I am in the midst of doing a small remodel job on my home and so I haven't been able to spend my time on the computer the past couple of months. But this morning while some stain is drying I took a few minutes to go through a few old photos that might show how I gained experience and confidence with the frontal shot.

This is another that takes me way back in time. I would venture to say it was mid 1970's or so. I was trying to learn how to bowhunt, and I had taken a few critters with frontal shots, so when this buck faced me at close range, I hit him straight on in the neck. My arrow did not go into the cavity, as it was too high, but it was almost center of the neck. The buck made it a very short distance and I watched him go down.

Late one evening I watched this buck and several others cross through a pass just before dark on a high ridge just under timber line.

Then next night I hiked up and sat the pass where I had the seen the buck the evening before. I sat there for a number of hours and in those days shot a very heavy bow. The elevation was high and it was mighty cool up there. At about 7:30 that evening I looked out from my hiding place to see a herd of bucks coming from behind me, going the opposite way that had the evening before. As luck would have it the largest buck was the closet to me and passed me at just over 10 yards. I let him pass so he would not see me draw, and as he put his head down to eat, I tried to pull my bow, but I was so stiff from the cool wait, that I could not get my bow back. I tried several times and one of the other deer saw me and started to take off. By the time I got it back, the close buck had figured something was wrong and had turned straight towards me just after I had hit bull draw. I put my pin on the center of his neck, again hitting high and off to one side just slightly. He ran I watched as he headed down the steep hill. At about 80 yards he stopped and laid right down. He put his head on the ground and would raise it every so often, but in a little over 5 minutes I could see his time in that pass was over for good.

It was so late in the evening and in those days I didn't have a flash, so I cleaned him out and hung him up in the shade and didn’t' come back to pack him out for a day an a half. I took the photos at that time, and although when I shot him he was a good looking buck, I learned the soon after the kill you can take the photo, the more life like they turn out.

I would never have told him to take that shot if I felt it was a high risk or low recovery shot. And its for this reason that I want to dispel that myth and post these photos.

I took the photo, but I was some 50 yards or so away and did not see him shoot. I did help follow the well defined, short blood trail. This kid always shot instinctive and is one of the best natural shots I have ever known. He also was one of the top trap shooters in the nation at one time.

I am grateful for blood trails I can follow in the dark and with these hits I have yet to see one single poor blood trial. I am sure in time it will happen to me or someone else, but it will happen very rarely. I do know that. The same can not be said with broadside or quartering shots. Sometimes you have great blood trails, and sometimes its hard to find enough blood to successfully track down the dead critter.

If you decide to take this shot, keep it close. If you decide to pass and waited for a broadside shot I will always respect that decision. But if you are passing some of these shots waiting for a better shot, that may never happen. At least from my experience the frontal is my very favorite shot. I still take broadside shots, don't get me wrong, and I don't wait for a frontal like some guys wait for a broadside, if I get a chance at a close frontal I will take it every single time if the conditions are right. In fact I much prefer it!

Have a great bowhunt. BB

BB I love those "vintage" bowhunting pics! Thanks! I know the point was educational, but I still loved the pics.

The old equipment (count the wheels on the bow) camo, hehehe... hairsyles, too cool for school! Some of those shots are classic! I know you don't smoke, but I was looking for a pack rolled up in somebody's sleeve.

Disco died but every now and then you see a memorial...

I was simply stating my opinion as everybody else does ! I already stated that and there was nothing personal !!!! What the hell don't you understand about that !!!!!!!!!!!!

But I must bow to the experienced hunters that are posting on this thread. After careful review of deer anatomy, I must conclude that I've probably been missing out.

Bigdan. . . .who has tons of experience and has killed a lot of critters. . . I've never thought of that shot, but as I look at anatomy diagrams, it makes perfect sense

BB. . . . who has tons of experience and has killed a lot of critters. . . Mine eyes have been opened a little. Thanks

Bake

I was simply stating my opinion as everybody else does ! I already stated that and there was nothing personal !!!! What the hell don't you understand about that !!!!!!!!!!!! "

Looks like someone needs to get their meds adjusted..... Terry

Go back and read your previous post. If there has been any accusatory tone in the thread, it was yours.

BB is one of the more accomplished archers out there. You have no idea how old he is and yet you're the expert and he isn't despite his flawless record on the subject. There you go making assumptions, which is apparently what you have done in regards to this shot as well. We all know what that does.

No one here put down your opinion. They have simply shown why it is ignorant to believe, especially since you admittedly have never tried it.

I've never taken a frontal shot, but a buddy of mine killed a nice 6x6 a few years ago with that shot. His first shot deflected off a branch and hit far back. He knocked another arrow and hit the bull again as it took two steps and turned towards him. The bull was slightly quartering towards him and the arrow buried up to the knock just on the left side of the opening. The bull took two steps and fell over leaving a spray of blood out for several feet around him. I was very impressed with the results and given a good opportunity I'd take the shot in a heartbeat.

I insist that you each take me on a hunt and put me on an animal and allow me to shoot to prove to me that the frontal shots work.

So Bigdan. . . see you in September in big bull country

And BB. . . let me know the best time for me to come out and hunt a big mulie

Again, I insist that you both don't know what you're talking about until you put me on a huge animal and I take the shot :):):):):):)

Bake

BB and Bigdan hopefully neither of you ever get sick of letting us in on these tips that you provide. Its a huge help for many of us throughout the years and I know some of my success has come from listening to these two. Dont let the naysayers (Haters)get you down.

Of course some bowhunters and rifle hunters hunt for years and never see a wounded animal. To me its a part of the hunt. Rifle or bow animals get wounded and lost and if you have never seen an animal wounded and lost you have not done a lot of hunting or guiding , are a liar, or the luckiest person on earth.

I have seen animals killed with brisket shot that never entered the chest cavity, hoof shot and die and shot through both lungs and live. I'll bet BB and Dan have seen wierd things like that too.

I personally put the frontal on a high percentage kill list with very ugly consequences if things go wrong, but then same thing can happen to broadside chest shots.

One thing I have not heard and I believe should be said is that gut shots are deadly,. In no way am I advocating for them but if it happens I count the animal dead unless they get spooked too early. I never follow an animal that has any possibility of single lung or gut shot in less than 4 hours and 6 to 8 works better. They bloat and die from pressure on heart and lungs.They usually lay down within a hundred yards.

I also have seen a nice bull killed with a penis shot. He dehydrated him and I tracked himm all night long by urine drips,. He died at sunup with me and 4 other guys sitting 40 or 50 yards from him. Only a few drops of blood. The bull jumped at the shot, which was a broadside and the arrow cut across the penis. My grandson's first elk. That was almost 14 hours of tracking. That bull traveled about 3/4 of a mile heading to water and did not make it.

I'm thinking the frontal shot might be a higher percentage shot than a "dinger" shot. We can all agree not to try for that one on purpose, I bet.

Making poor choices or using inacurate/flawed information for an extended period of time does not make one an expert. Results, however, speak volumes.

But, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to make their own choices.

BB was not riding anyone down, he just brought out his proof to back his lessons and did so in a calm and gentlemanly fashion. As did Bigdan, who's likely killed more public land bull elk with a bow than any man alive.

I for one value these lessons and thank these guys from the bottom of my heart. They are a big part of what make this site the best source of bowhunting information I have ever seen or read.

In fact, thanks again.

You don't have to agree with everything a person says, but I'd think a bowhunter would be silly or maybe just plain stubborn not to listen and take what they feel they can from these guys. They're the real deal.

Although I still don't plan on taken frontal shots, I respect your opinion and you have made this a fun read and educational to say the least.

What do you mean you had no choice? Please explain

What kind of a blood trail did you get and how far did the bear go in a minute or so.

I believe you were lucky to retrieve the bear. They have a slow metabolism, fat, and long hair that soaks up a lot of blood. Sure the frontal shot is fatal but it isn't the best to give you a good blood trail. A bear can travel a long ways in a minute or so, and leave very little blood, more details please. Thanks

I was simply stating my opinion as everybody else does ! I already stated that and there was nothing personal!!!! What the hell don't you understand about that!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stephen I sure apologize for anything I said that you may have taken wrong. I can assure you I did not intend to be that way towards you or anyone else.

But I can also assure you I believe the results of a close frontal shot will be positive more times than will those of a close broadside or quartering away shot.

As far as you hunting as long as I have been alive, I doubt that to be the case. I took my first deer with a bow 50 years ago this very year. I am well on my way to number 69! So I imagine we are probably about the same age.

If you are from Iowa I can understand you’re not taking frontal shots. Most whitetail bow hunters of the past are generally treestand hunters, and in all but very rare instances, the angle from a tree is not compatible for frontal shots, even at close range. We are talking about elk, mule deer and antelope, more than whitetails, and we are talking more about hunting from the ground than from a tree.

In my 50 years of bowhunting, I have come to three very basic conclusions why animals are hit and lost. By far, the number one reason, at least in the west where I live and do almost all my hunting, is far range shooting. The number two reason is many hunters do not understand the vitals of the critters they hunt and where they really need to hit them. And the third reason, even at close range, and with the proper knowledge, is the devil himself, Buck Fever.

In closing I would just like to say that if I was going to build myself a house and needed to put in my footings and foundation, I would seek the advise of a guy who did that all the time. What the roofer said about that subject would carry very little credibility. When I got ready for the roof, I would listen to him about the best roof and discount what the footing and foundation guy said about my roof.

How can one give advice unless they have first hand experience or at least credible 2nd hand input?

I am not a fan of expandable broadheads, and I don’t think they are as good as a good cut on impact head, but you won’t find me putting them down as I really don’t feel qualified to say what I feel about them, as I have never used one, and thus don’t feel like my input would be credible. I do feel what I say about the close frontal shot to be valid and judge it solely on what my arrow has told me, through the many years I have bowhunted and from all the positive experiences I and others have achieved from the frontal shots.

Again I apologize for my inept ways, but not for my beliefs.

Have a great bowhunt BB

I respect both Bigdan and BB as well as their accomplishments. I have never met either, but from what I've seen on their posts and their pictures they are very accomplished hunters and good people. As a matter of fact, I sent BB a PM a couple months ago asking him for information on a moose area he's hunted before. He was very helpful and gracious. I can promise you I'll be contacting him again once I draw, if not before. As you stated, both Bigdan and BB have participated in this debate as gentlemen. Where I have a problem is when someone starts with the namecalling simply because I disagree with them, as one individual chose to do.

There are a few of us that also have alot of experience. Since we're a little younger, probably not as much experience, but alot just the same. Just because we may disagree on a subject doesn't mean that we are (haters) as one person stated. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just because a few of us don't agree that this is not a good shot to take doesn't mean that we are silly or stubborn not to change our minds. Each of us decides what is the best course of action to take when hunting whether it comes to area's, tactics or shot selection. We make those decisions based on our experiences, both good and bad. I just personally have a problem taking a shot that I know will have no chance for a pass-thru on an elk. That's just how I feel about it, but it sure doesn't mean I hate those I disagree with. I will admit to getting a little (Lot) PO'd when the namecalling starts. Doesn't matter if it's this thread or any other.

Sorry about getting long-winded, but just wanted to clear up any misconceptions. They are both stand-up guys.

Rob

If I knew then what I know now about how far forward you can hit them on a broadside shot I'd have taken my biggest bull to date and he'd have been my first. I had a 330+ bull broadside at 15 feet and didn't take the shot because the classic behind the crease double lung shot was obstructed. Had I shot just above the "elbow" on the front leg that bull would be dead now.

Knowing more about anatomy of your prey is a good thing and it allows you to make use of that knowledge to fill tags...that includes frontal presentations.

You guys have been there/done that. Your results and pictures speak for themselves.

I shot my 1st & only elk with a frontal shot. My partner and myself had a raghorn come running into us & stop at 8 yards. I was at full draw when he stopped. The whitetail hunter in me kept trying to get onto his chest and I couldn't do it. But I remembered the advice and anatomy research of elk. (Plus the 20 + deer I had butchered by that time)I settled in on the spot about 1 inch below where his windpipe disappears into the chest. (I was kneeling and drew an imaginary line through him.) I hit within a 1/2 inch of where I was aiming. My partner knew as soon as I dropped the string, he was dead. When he whirled at the shot, he was threw a cloud of blood. The arrow exited at his hip, hanging about 1/2 way out. We watched him trot off, started staggering around 80 yards out, and watched him tip. (You can see the exit hole just ahead of my fletching in the linked pic)

BTW. I was using a Snuffer and weighty 2315 arrow based upon some other sage advice I gleaned from this site from a wise bowhunter also.

The question was asked, why is this shot so deadly? One item that has not been mentioned. On a broadside shot, If you shoot to far back, you may get lungs, but you arte in the lobes of the lungs. If you shoot head on, (and don't hit heart or arteries) you are cutting the lungs lengthwise. Much more trauma to the oxygen/blood handling organs= quicker kill.

For me, I would take this shot again based upon my anatomy knowledge and shooting ability under 15 yards. No I don't have a ton of experience on frontal shots, but I am confident in it's deadliness.

If you look back at one of my posts I mention that gut shot animals will die if not found. They die however from sepsis, not bloating. Sepsis is a condition that occurs pretty rapidly where bacteria from the bowels gets into the blood stream and creates a level of toxicity in the blood stream that kills the animal. I shot a nice blacktail this year and hit him too far back on a broadside shot. I left him for about 4 hours and followed him up an hour before dark. I jumped him and came back the next morning and found him about 70 yards from where I jumped him. Gut shot animals won't go far and given enough time they WILL die.

Oh and I have throughly enjoyed all the old archery photos that have been posted. I wish I could have been a part of hunting during that period of time.

I think with just a little effort this one should get pretty close or even beat it. Heheheh....=D

I have a ton of old photos, non very good, but still quite old.

Here's one of an elk I took way back in the 70's. By that time I had quit rifle hunting and although the rifle hunt was on I still was hunting with my bow. I saw a small herd of elk laying on a snowy hillside and snuck around and over the top, but I busted a cow and she scared the herd and this spike got confused and ran up and stopped straight on. He too did not make it far and left a bloody mess, but the bushes hid most of the blood in this photo.

I now preach for people get rid of the brush etc. and from this photo you can see why. After you take enough bad photos, (like bad shots) you begin to learn.

That's me blowing my tin bugle and my bow is laying on the bull. Notice closely and you will see I was shooting bear razor heads with no cover. At one time I used the put my arrows in the qiver with some up and some down, so if you fell one would be sure to get you!

Every year for the guys I would take my teeth out and do some dumb photo. Here I am without my teeth or shirt in front of an old cabin in LaBarge Wyoming. If you notice closely you will see an arrow hole in my hat. I bet a buddy he could not hit it from 60 yards, with one arrow, but I was wrong.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Sorry for getting off track but these are for the guys who liked disco. Ha Ha

Thanks for the good input, and pictures from those of you who took the time to help me understand it a little better.

If anyone has a similar picture of an elk please post.

Now I can see where "Buglin' Billy" came from. Do the teeth come out before the diaphragm goes in?

Too funny! Thanks BB! Heeheeheee....

I believe you were lucky to retrieve the bear. They have a slow metabolism, fat, and long hair that soaks up a lot of blood. Sure the frontal shot is fatal but it isn't the best to give you a good blood trail. A bear can travel a long ways in a minute or so, and leave very little blood, more details please. Thanks"

I killed a bull at about 12 yards in 2008 with a frontal shot. He walked about 10 yards and slid about another 10 yards. Almost instantly he was pouring blood out of his mouth. Biggest blood trail I've ever seen. It would have taken a tremendous amount of hair and fat to soak it all up. I am a big fan of frontal shots :)

here is a video of a frontal shot. you have to fast forward if you want to about the 2 minute mark if you dont want to watch the whole thing.

The first year of bowhunting with my father he arrowed a whopper Mule Deer Buck head on and burried the 31" arrow to the fletchings. We tracked the buck for several hours and never recovered him although he was loosing a ton of blood (this was back in 1986 or so). That sort of steered us both clear of head on shots for about 20 years.

However, after reading all of BB's info over the last few years, and having never attempted such a shot, I had the last few mule deer come in as he described in his antelope set-up. The last 3 Mule Deer I've killed were all head-on shots and all died fast.

My personal shot of choice is hard quartering away, over the hip shots going to the opposite front leg. That's my money maker for sure.

But, I would not hesitate at a head-on shot as these guys have described.

I have to admit it, I've butched up 3 "gimme" broadside shots at mature herd bulls over the years. Shoulder bladed two of them and they were none the worse for wear. The other (a non-typical with a 9" kicker out of his 5th/6th point juncture which came straight out to the side) I had a new bow and shot high on (broadside of course).

Just my $.02 worth.

I am just curious here and have a question that begs to be asked, especially since there are a lot of archers being very quiet out there because of your obvious experience.

If it is so easy for the average archer to hit the heart/vein/artery ball on a 20 yard frontal shot, why then is it so hard for these same archers to hit the "v" on a broadside shot and lose their animals.

( I certainly don't classify you two as average )

( several quotes here of "only elk I lost was a broadside shot at short range )

Question is very respectfully submitted,

Tony

Maybe I missed something.

GG

I have only had experience tracking 2 animals that were frontal shot both not by me, and neither left a good blood trial. One was a small bear that was raiding apples at our work site when I worked for the highway dept. My buddy shot it frontal and it still went 300 yards, and dropped maybe 15-20 drops of blood. Dumb luck we found it really. He never got an exit so that arrow and broad head stayed in his body really cut him up inside as he went up a steep hill but not much bleeding outside.

Same guy did the same thing on a mulie buck and this time a little more blood (nothing like a double lunger) and we found him about 200 yards away. So both were killed and found so that is the good news.

What broad head do you shoot? To instantly get a frontal shot elk to be bleeding out of the mouth is impressive. Was it lung blood or did you catch an artery and wind pipe with the artery leaking into the windpipe? Another reason I would be leary of a frontal shot is to get one lung and the elk taking me a long ride. Once again congrats, I hope to post an elk pic next year. You can give me s&*t if you see a frontal shot, I am not convinced it is for me.

As stated above, what is paramount is taking only shots you know you can make. If you know where to hit and know you can make the shot, the frontal shot is deadly. If you are not comfortable, wait until you get a shot you are comfortable with or pass. This is not rocket science.

From elevation no.

Grizz went 70 yards after this frontal.

A bear just walking to you relaxed won't give you any shot, they need to be on alert with head up to get a shot and if they move you are going to wound them. I don't care how good of a shot you are or how fast your bow is you will have a wounded animal and a tough job ahead of you.

A bear just walking to you relaxed won't give you any shot, they need to be on alert with head up to get a shot and if they move you are going to wound them. I don't care how good of a shot you are or how fast your bow is you will have a wounded animal and a tough job ahead of you.

I am glad it worked out for you. What is a Newark? Just kidding, I spend a lot of time around bears and am less scared of them then seeing pit bulls running loose in town.

Last year I had a big blackie circle my blind for about an hour till dark and while taking down my blind I was hearing him popping his teeth in the brush was nerve racking. I lost my rubber blunt arrow trying to get a grouse an hour earlier or he would have had some sore ribs. Bear season opens on September 15th this was on the 14th. Obviously no deer or elk came by me. Only time I ever was nervous with a black bear. I will try not to double post again

The fact of the matter is this: Archers that know anatomy and are good shots often have success. Archers that don't study or practice hard often don't succeed.

Front shot advocates are constantly saying the same thing: when conditions are right, short distance, it's not for everyone, etc. Detractors are saying: un-recovered game, low margin of error, etc. The bottom line is both front and broadside shots CAN be effective, ethical shots. Seems like many feel the margin of error is larger for a broadside shot.

The one thing both situations have in common is this: if the archer doesn't keep his head and make his shot, there will be a long track and uncertain outcome.

I have two more questions;

Which shot gives the greater margin of error, the frontal shot, or broadside - aiming up the leg line to the "V" of the shoulder blade?

And can we see some more "red dot" photos on the aiming point of the frontal shot? I am still not sure where the aiming point is on this shot.

Tony

It is the only animal I have ever taken with that shot but at close range I would be inclined to try it again.

I know he is SMALL but he is my first bear and I wouldn't have been any more excited if he weighed 400lbs. PD

The bear in question came to a call at a dead run and I shot her at no more than 10 yards. If being afraid of becoming bear poop fits your definition of an altercation, then yes.

Chip had lots of options by comparison.

Yep. You don't make the shot, whatever the shot, things don't go well. Lots of reasons why. Nerves, sticks, moving animals, wind, equipment, you name it.

Tony, broadside is a bigger target, even the "V" is much bigger than the frontal shot. That's exactly why all these guys stress that UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS they will take the shot.

I've probably taken that shot a dozen times or so on various game over the years, admittedly only one elk but the end result was the same. The only time I made a bad shot was on a feral goat. I hit high and he went down in a pile as I spined him. All the others when down fast and looked like a Quentin Tarantino movie. I have lost animals before, but never on this shot, I'm 100% on it as I've only taken it in slam dunk situations. Close. Controlled.

I've also passed on 10 yard broadside many times. Three times in one encounter on the biggest bull I've ever been close to, just couldn't line up the shot I wanted in the trees with the right spot on the animal at the right time and kept having to let down.

As a side note, whether a person feels OK with the shot or not, everyone should know where their bow shoots at 5 yards, 10 yards, 10 feet. And practice them enough that they are as second nature as throwing your 20 yard pin on something. Sometimes we even practice quick shooting with a buddy loudly counting down as you draw and shoot. The fastest guy that still makes the shot is the winner. It adds a little fun to practice and gets you used to field situations when you don't have all day to settle down and shoot. These aren't 3d targets.

When these shots offer themselves it is usually both close AND quick.

This ram was maybe 15 yards at the shot and didn't make it another 15. Took him out stem to stern. He just turned slowly, staggered along with baby steps and stumbled head on into these rocks. I marked what believe it or not was the blood trail. You didn't want to walk through it.

I realize how tough it is to keep your nerves when you’ve got a bull marching towards you, but that old saying…”aim small, miss small”, is worth its weight in back straps.

Got to love bowsite. Its nice learning things from these older guys. Just like BB's V shot. Amazing what we are taught in hunter ed when we are kids and how false some of it really is.

Learning how to bowhunt, call elk, get unstuck or shooting elk becomes much easier the more we know and understand. If our minds are open to evaluate new ideas, new ways and different thinking, we just might find a better way. We might also find out the old way is still the best way, at least for some of us us.

For many years I been a proponent of the close in frontal shot. As I have stated many times, I think when taken in close proximity, with a cut on impact head and a heavy bow, it is bow hunting’s most deadly shot.

I weigh my criteria from the experiences I or others I have hunted with have had. I have chosen to listen to what my arrows are telling me and have refused to listen or take advise from the "book learned crowd" that have never taken the shot, but seem to think they are experts.

If one is close and can hit his target I truly believe it has to be bow hunting’s highest percentage shot to kill and find the animal. If you can keep your arrow in a line that will allow it to pass through the center of the neck or within a couple inches, I think you will kill the critter every time.

Many people think the broadside shot is bow hunting's best shot, I just disagree. The main advantage of the broadside shot is it has a larger vital area and thus some think they can shoot longer shots. But it also has a huge area which is not vital and which can be hit if the placement is not correct or if the animal moves.

There are a number of good hits on broadside critter that are not recovered due to poor tracking blood (even with some good hits). In every case, of the critters I have witnessed taken with the frontal shot, the blood trails have all been outstanding, and a few even grotesque.

There is one common thread amongst all the proponents of the frontal shot who have been posting here and that is everyone reserves it to close in situations.

Each year I have number of Bowsiters either PM me or email me thanking me for the frontal advise and the critter they took with this information. I have yet to have one single person contact me saying they hit and lost a critter and will never take that shot again. ( I am sure at some point that will happen)

So when that buck or bull gives you a close frontal shot and your are at full draw, deciding what you want to do, understand it is no different than a broadside shot in that you still have keep your arrow close to where you are suppose to hit. If you do that I know you too will soon be a frontal fan.

Many still teach that on a broasideshot, you should put your arrow behind the shoulder. As many of you know I don't belive that to be the case and I have had many move their shots forward and PM me their thanks when they witnessed the difference a few inches more forward can make.

Keep your shots close and good things will happen.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Now, for your advise on moving the broadside shot forward, could you elaborate - perhaps with a photo or two...I'd appreciate it.

Have a great bowhunt BB

I've not executed this shot personally. I'm open to learning. One of the great things about the broadside shot is the landmarks are easier to identify, and easier to describe to someone else ("straight up the front leg, 1/3 of the way," or something like that.)

What specific landmarks are helpful for the frontal shot?

I only stopped using them because the heads don't fit tightly into the foam at the top of my quiver.