Do they work? Have hunters and the hunting industry been duped?
By T.R. Michels, Trinity Mountain Outdoors
Over the last few years several questions have arisen as to whether or not activated carbon clothing suits work as advertised to keep hunters from being detected by deer (that might smell the odors given off by humans or any unnatural odors associated with the humans while they are hunting). The questions asked include: Is there enough activated carbon in the scent-elimination suits for them to work as the manufacturers claim? How long will activated carbon continue to work? Can the suits be re-activated as the manufacturers claim they can be? Are activated carbon suits adversely affected by humidity?
Activated carbon is used as a filter medium because it has an affinity to "volatile organic compounds". When humans perspire they emit volatile organic compounds and other chemicals, such as hydrogen sulfides, which can be trapped by activated carbon. The manufacturers of activated carbon scent-control suits claim their clothing works because the activated carbon (which is glued to or impregnated into the fabric of the clothing) blocks the release of human odors, or "traps" the odors by a chemical bonding process called "adsorption".
Adsorption occurs when activated carbon grabs and holds other compounds, including gases, scents and odors, at the molecular level. The amount of odor that an activated carbon filter medium holds is determined both by the amount of activated carbon in the entire medium and by how thick the layer of activated carbon on the fabric is. In the case of a scent-elimination suit, the carbon layer is very thin, which means there is very little activated carbon in the suit. In fact, the scent elimination suits are so thin that they hold relatively small amounts of activated carbon, and the activated carbon is so widely spaced in some suits that the suits allow air and odors to go through the suit without coming into contact with and being trapped by the small amounts of carbon in the suit.
One of the problems with trapping odors by adsorption is that adsorption continuously occurs, unless the activated carbon is kept in an airtight unscented bag from the moment it is first activated. Since activated carbon will eventually become full of odors, it cannot work any great length of time. If activated carbon clothing is not put into a sealed bag the moment it is activated, and kept that way until it is used for hunting, it will have adsorbed numerous odors. Depending on how thick the layer of activated carbon is in the suit, it may not work to stop human odors the very first time it is used.
In an attempt to bring some legitimacy to their products, the manufacturers of scent-control clothing have acknowledged this to some extent. Many manufacturers recommend that the clothing should be immediately washed, and then "re-activated" by placing the suits in a clothes dryer as soon as they are purchased.
Do activated carbon suits work as claimed? When the laboratory at Purification Process was asked to test a popular activated carbon scent-control suit they found there wasn't enough in the suit to even test. In a test with search dogs, by JA Shivik, Ph.D., forty-two people were hidden from Colorado search and rescue dogs. Twenty-one of the people wore activated carbon suits; twenty-one did not. The dogs found all twenty-one people who didn't wear activated carbon suits, and twenty of the people who wore activated carbon suits. There was no noticeable difference in the time it took the dogs to find the humans. It took the dogs 2.7 minutes to detect the humans who were not wearing activated carbon, and 3.4 minutes to find the humans who were wearing activated carbon suits.
Shivik's report states, "That the dogs detected humans wearing the suit indicates that the system failed to prevent detection of human odors." Since deer have a sense of smell equal to if not better than dogs, it is safe to assume that deer would have detected the humans too. The report adds, "The suits are probably not worth the cost to researchers or managers who want to approach canids undetected." They probably aren't worth $150 to $300 to hunters either, if they can't keep deer from detecting the hunters.
The military also uses activated carbon clothing, commonly referred to as Chemical Warfare Suits, but they are limited-use, disposable garments, not intended for multiple use, because, according to the paper The War Next Time: Countering Rogue States and Terrorists Armed with Chemical and Biological Weapons, the new JS-LIST suits worn by the armed services "provide 45 days of wear versus 22 days for the BDOs." These chemical warfare suits have several times more activated carbon in them than the suits currently being offered for hunting purposes; and they only last for 45 days! This document can viewed on-line at: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/war_next_time/schneider2.pdf.
An interesting comment in the document states, "In addition they can be washed up to six times without losing protective qualities." This suggests that clothing made with activated carbon becomes less effective every time it is washed. It also suggests that after six washings, the Chemical Warfare Suits, which are made to US Government specifications, and have more activated carbon in them than the activated carbon suits worn by hunters, are ineffective after six washings! And yet, the loss of activated carbon due to washing, and the eventual ineffectiveness of the suits due to washing, is not clearly stated by the manufacturers of the activated carbon scent-elimination suits in any of their literature, or on their web sites. Note the reference to heavy perspiration in the following article, which will be talked about later.
In 2005, the Scent Lok web site at www.scentlok.com stated:
(begin quote)
"When and how to wash: During warm weather when only a T-shirt is being worn as an undergarment and heavy perspiration is occurring, it is advised to wash your suit periodically. During cool weather when heavier undergarments or layers are worn, there is no need to wash the suit. Washing does not have anything to do with reactivation, but does get rid of unwanted body oils (caused by perspiration), blood, and dirt. Washing a Scent-Lok suit can be done 1-4 times per season without fear of losing carbon from the suit. The permanent ClimaFlex treatment, that is on all Scent-Lok branded suits made during and after 2001, aids in the extraction of unwanted body oils in high perspiration areas when washed. Use only non-scented liquid clothes wash or preferably carbon wash. Once a garment is washed per label instructions it should be put in the dryer on a no heat setting until dry. Once the garment is dry, follow the reactivation instructions. ClimaFlex treatment is also a wicking agent, which adds to the overall comfort of the suit during warm weather."
end quote)
Note: This article has since been removed from the web site.
The comments in the US Government document mentioned above suggest that it is likely that the actions of both household washers and dryers may result in the loss of some of the activated carbon in the scent-elimination clothing worn by hunters.
Can Activated Carbon suits be re-charged as manufacturers claim?
Scent-Lok, one of the largest producers and the only licensor of activated carbon suits, states that their suits can be re-charged by placing them in the clothes dryer for 20 to 30 minutes to re-activate the carbon. On their web site in 2005 they also stated that heat from a clothes dryer causes "Brownian molecular motion" causes the scent to move very fast, which breaks the molecules free from the activated carbon particles, which supposedly re-activates the suits.
In 2005 the Scent Lok web site stated:
(begin quote)
"How are odors released?
It is common knowledge that heat makes molecules move more rapidly. Reactivation is only obtained by using a clothes dryer. Reactivation is achieved by placing the suit in a dryer for twenty to thirty minutes on a medium to high heat setting or according to the label instructions. The heat from the clothes dryer creates what is scientifically known as Brownian molecular motion, which causes the scent molecules to move rapidly. This movement breaks the molecules free from the surfaces of the activated carbon particles and interior pores of the carbon, and allows them to eventually exit out of the dryer vent."
(end quote) Note: This article has since been removed from the site.
In order to re-activate activated carbon a process referred to as "Pyrolysis" is used. To completely re-activate an activated carbon suit saturated with human perspiration it has to be heated to about 800 °C; or 1472 °F. And it would have to be done in a controlled atmosphere with low oxygen concentration to reduce the possibility of combustion. This is clearly stated in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers - Engineering and Design, Adsorption Design Guide, Design Guide No. DG1110-1-2, which can be viewed on the internet. At 500 degrees F the suit will be nothing but carbon. Even if desorbtion was possible most household clothes dryers do not reach temperatures over 200°F, which is not high enough to release the trapped odors in the scent-elimination suits. It is highly unlikely that activated carbon suits for hunting use can be recharged, with the result that the suits will eventually become full of odors, to the point where the charcoal will no longer trap odors.
In defense of their statements that their suits can be re-activated Scent Lok maintains that the word "reactivation" is a loosely used term. In reality "reactivation", as it applies to activated carbon, means that the adsorption capability of the carbon has been totally and completely re-activated. They have stated that the garments aren't "totally reactivated" after they are first washed and put in the dryer, but that they are partially "regenerated" or "desorbed". Supposedly this partial regeneration is enough to allow the clothing to again adsorb more odors.
While some desorption can occur when activated carbon is exposed to temperatures lower than 750 to 1500 degrees F, there is a point when the temperature is too low to desorb activated carbon. A Virginia Technical University study shows that activated carbon can be partially desorbed between temperatures of 100 to 649 degrees Celsius. One hundred degrees Celsius is 212 degrees Fahrenheit. This is the extreme low temperature during which "partial desorption" of odors and gases may occur. However, as stated above, most household clothes dryers produce less than 150 degrees Fahrenheit; which suggests that the activated carbon suits sold to hunters cannot even be "partially regenerated or desorbed". (The above-cited study is study was originally available on the Internet by logging on to: http://www.ce.vt.edu/program_areas/environmental/teach/wtprimer/carbon/sketcarb.html)
The use of the term Brownian molecular motion on the Scent-Lok web site is also inaccurate. The use of this scientific term seems to add some credibility to the claims about activated carbon. There is no reference to Brownian "molecular" motion, because Brownian motion does not involve molecules, but rather small particles.
The web site at http://schools.matter.org.uk/Content/BrownianMotion/Default.htm states, "Brownian motion (or Brownian movement) can be defined as 'the random movement of microscopic particles suspended in a fluid. " Brownian motion has nothing to do with the re-activation or de-adsorbtion of activated carbon, because the term is only used only in reference to "particles suspended in a fluid," not to the motion or activity of gaseous odor molecules released by activated carbon that is subjected to heat in a clothes dryer.
Are activated carbon suits adversely affected by humidity?
One of the statements on the Scent Lok web site in 2005 mentioned "heavy perspiration", which may occur as a hunter walks to their hunting site, and may result in high humidity between the hunter's skin and the suit for several hours after the hunter stops walking. The Army Corps of Engineers document cited above also states: “Relative humidity above 50 percent may result in adsorbed and condensed water vapor blocking the pores of the particles and interfering with the diffusion of the contaminants to the adsorption pores.”
What this means is that if a hunter wears activated carbon clothing while hunting, when the relative humidity conditions are above 50 percent, or if he sweats, the suit won't work. No matter what the relative humidity conditions are outside, activated carbon clothing may not work, because the act of walking alone will cause the human body to sweat, resulting in a relative humidity of 50 percent or more between the body and the suit. By the time the hunter arrives at their hunting site the activated carbon in the suit will be saturated with moisture, and it will be useless. Hunters can find this government document on the Internet, and so can the manufacturers of activated carbon clothing. But, neither it, nor the information in it, is mentioned by any of the activated carbon clothing manufacturers in their advertising, nor is it mentioned on their web sites.
Conclusion: If there is not enough activated carbon in the suits to trap human odors; if the suits used for Chemical Warfare lose effectiveness after six washings and are effective for a maximum of 45 days; if activated carbon scent-elimination suits do not keep dogs from detecting humans; if the effectiveness of activated carbon is affected by humidity above 50 percent; then it is unlikely that scent-elimination suits using activated carbon can work to keep hunters from being detected by deer during hunting situations, especially if the clothing is worn more than 45 days, or washed more than six times. Many hunters use their suits more than 45 days in a year, and wash it more than six times in a year, which means they will probably have to buy a new suit every one to two years.
Do hunters have other options?
Fortunately for hunters there are other types of clothing designed to reduce or eliminate human odors on the market. One of them is No-Trace, which uses cyclodextrene (the same active ingredient used in some popular new air fresheners) to trap human odors. The manufacturers claim that placing it in a washing machine with unscented hunter's detergent can recharge their clothing.
Does anti-bacterial or anti-microbial type clothing work?
Hunters can also use anti-bacterial type suits work for the reduction or elimination of odors caused by bacteria when used for hunting purposes. These suits include Contain, which uses anti-bacterial ingredients in the fibers of the fabric of the clothing, and X Scent, which uses silver threads in the fabric of the clothing. Both products reduce or kill the bacteria or microbes that produce the odors associated with human perspiration, thus they reduce the amount of human odors that might be detected by deer and other big game animals.
Licensing Agreements
In the early 1990's Scent-Lok applied for and received a patent on the use of activated carbon for several different applications and/or articles of clothing used in conjunction with the control, reduction or elimination of scents, including human related or human produced odors, while hunting. Since the granting of that patent Scent-Lok has done what any company holding a patent does; they have aggressively protected the patent, warning several companies not to produce clothing meant to control, reduce or eliminate unwanted odors while hunting, whether the clothing contained activated carbon or not.
Is the Scent-Lok patent valid?
Recently some questions have arisen as to whether or not the Scent-Lok Patent is valid. On May 11, 2005, the United States Patent and Trademark Office mailed a document to Scent-Lok, notifying them that "Claims 1-10" of their patent were temporarily "subject to reexamination" and were temporarily "rejected". According to the document, Scent-Lok had until July 11, 2005 to respond to this document. Failure by Scent-Lok to respond "will result in termination of the process and issuance of an ex parte reexamination certificate in accordance with this action." The document cites "Popper" and "Floyd" as previous patent holders and may imply that Claims 1-10 of the Scent-Lok patent are invalid, because either Popper or Floyd covers the claims under previous use. Previous use of those claims would invalidate the portion of the Scent-Lok patent making those same claims. The Patent Office document states, "The clothing of Popper is capable of being used to avoid detection of wildlife through the senses of smell as the clothing in its normal use is worn on the body." This seems to suggest that several of the claims in the Scent-Lok patent were already patented in the Popper patent.
The document further states, "The nonstatutory double patenting rejection is based on a judicially created doctrine grounded in public policy (a policy reflected in statute) so as to prevent the unjustified or improper timewise extension of the 'right to exclude' granted by a patent and to prevent possible harassment by multiple assignees." As of June 2006 the Patent claims 1-10 of the originally applied for Scent Lok patent on activated carbon suits used for the purpose of eliminating human scent or odors hunting have been rejected. However, Scent Lok has resubmitted a claim for a new or revised patent, using different terms, but still using the same general ideas.
I guess someone has to have "something" to write about. So with that being said, Double Bull Blinds are the Best also. The (some) other blinds are cheap copies of Double Bull Blinds...as the same with some other scent controling fabricks/camo being sold that are NOT actuall Scent-Lok Company clothing. Just cheap imitations...You get what you pay for!! Just my $.02 cents worth!
When you go to bed at night put on your Scent Lok and see if you can get your wife to knee you in the back in middle of the night. If in the morning she wakes up and says, "I didn't smell a thing," then you got yourself a pair of camo pajamas, since you won't be able to use them for hunting anymore because the carbon will be all filled up.
. Was Phil wearing scentlok suits? It would be cool if someone could place a link to this video, I have never seen it, it has to be cool video.
How many idiots buy those? That's the biggest gimmick I've ever seen in the industry. A "FAD" like "RAP MUSIC"! Have any of you seen "BOW BUGGERS" string silencers 2 years ago?
Scent-Lok for me works! All other brands...pay a Patent Right to Scent-Lok Company for using their technology in their garments. Like I said above. Their clothing is comfortable and well made. It comes in several Camo Paterns and I think it's better than any other clothing on the market for design and quality control. Without the Scent Factor it's still the best sewn camo and material I have ever owned. Mine should last me a lifetime...barring barb wire fences and grizzly attacks....JMHO
Somebody show me just one shred of scientific evidence that any of the stuff works and I'll buy it.
Doc in PA 's Link
Doc in PA 's Link
Maybe he doesn't like Greg or Aubry.
Buy it if you want, or do the opposite.
Some clothing does a better job of trapping in scent then others and that can make a difference (Gore-tex seems to work good). The best thing I've found is hanging my clothes outside for a week or so after washing.
BTW: Yes I own a couple different scentlok garments but they were bought for the pocket arrangement and the quietness of the fabric.
Maybe the give away suits that are given to some are better quality because nobody gets busted in them.:) However,my purchased suit manifested no difference in deer behavior as if I was unsuited.300 hrs in stand.
I went in skeptical about my opinion and came out very confident, so it was worth it.
Placebo is a very powerful tool
My biggest beef is SL doesn't use as much carbon as they should, that is why they suggest buying two suits, a liner and camo suit. I do exactly that and they work perfectly, IF I do all the other things right. My suits are taken straight from an old, HOT dryer and put in scent storage containers or big zip lock bags. The newer dryers have sensors that detect how wet the clothes are and as they dry they don't put out as much heat to save on electricity. Those don't even come close to working as they should for SL. I could tell the difference in the field, and bought the old dryer for the garage. The metal parts of the suit will burn you when you take it straight out of the dryer to the storage container if I am not careful. It gets hot. I do this every 4-5 times I wear it.
I don't wash the suit other than the first time I get it, and then I hand wash and line dry. You can lose carbon, especially with the older suits. The newer ones aren't as bad.
I get dressed in the field, and it can get cold, but I strip to my shorts and everything has been descented and in storage containers, from my long johns to socks, gloves, hats etc. All sprayed down with scent elimination sprays as I dress. I dress light for the walk in, and after I am in the stand I finish dressing. No sweating. It makes a huge difference. No field dressing of animals or dragging them out while wearing the suit either.
It is a pain in the butt, but it works. I never got busted once last year, including 3 P&Y bucks downwind, one of which I shot (145"). I have been doing this for the last 5 years, and after 32 years of bowhunting I will keep doing it. My stands stay fresh longer without detection as well. Does it completely eliminate scent? No. Does it reduce it to the point animals, especially coyotes, don't get alarmed? Yep. I could care less how many articles and nay sayers there are. If it didn't work I wouldn't go to the trouble or expense. And I smile everytime I see the racks on the wall. Others don't need this edge to kill big ones. They are better hunters than me. I need it, and use it. Nuff said.
I'd bet if you went through the exact same routine with good quality camo (with some kind of wheater barrier) without the scentlok lining you'd have the same results.
See the first testmonial? Hmmm?
See the first testimonial? Hmmm?
I used to go through the same routine prior to Scent Lok, and got busted a good part of the time. I know that at times thermals worked in my favor when deer were downwind, at other times they didn't. I think Gore Tex does help some in scent reduction if you zip up tight and wear a Gore Tex head cover as well, but it doesn't eliminate it.
I tried taking numerous pieces of camo with and without Gore Tex, Windstopper, Comformax, etc and stretch them over a smelly candle in a jar that my wife has. Seal them tight over the jar then count how long it takes to smell the candle. Properly heated and stored Scent Lok won hands down with Gore Tex second. Older SL suits, or SL that had been sitting out of the container or bags didn't fair as well as GT. SL does not eliminate scent, but it reduces it a bunch. I don't believe all the hype anymore than I believe all the hype about any product on the market.
Taking care of your body odor is also huge. Do you dry off with a towel washed in scent free soap that is dried outside and kept in a bag? That is of course after you showered with a quality scent free soap. Do you wear clean scent free clothes to the woods, the ones you don't hunt with so you don't pick up odors? Do you cover your seats in your truck with plastic bags? Do you watch what you eat? Do you wear clean gloves sprayed with scent elimination spray to drive to your location so your hands don't pick up odors, then leave those gloves in the truck? Do you wipe down every single piece of equipment that goes to the woods with you with scent elimination spray? Do you keep all those items scent free as much as possible year round? I do all the above. It is a pain, but I love it when a big buck or old doe gets down wind and never picks me off, either when I am in a tree or on the ground. Works for me, and that is what matters to me. Also works for friends of mine that go to the same lengths I do. To each his own. But until you have tried it to the degree that I have, don't say it doesn't work. It is an entire system!
You're right it is a complete system you have to have worked out or none of it works. My routine fades a little as the season progresses, but to answer your question......yes, everything (including towels) are scent free and sealed before I use them. I notice immediately when I start to slack on any little detail. I do wear the scentlok just in case it works even a little bit, but I never ever rely on it. If its raining or cold I throw on my Browning Hydrofleece and never look back.
Good luck this season.
I never hunt when the wind is wrong, but I also know that deer don't play by the rules we make up. I use SL as part of my whole deer hunting system. It works or I wouldn't go to all the bother & expense. You are correct, wind is always the key regardless. I just like some insurance for when the wind switches or deer get downwind.
Good luck this year. I like your handle.
Can activated carbon be regenerated in a drier and if so what is the life span? To regenerate Activated Carbon it is thermally roasted at extremely high temperatures. Even then only about 95% of its original capacity is retained. That means the next time you regernerate it the capacity will fall to about 90%. I think its safe to assume that even if some capacity is recovered by regenerating in a drier it would be less than that of thermal roasting.
You show me ANY hunting product OR stragety and I will show you a way that the game can beat it...easily. Scentlok, camo, rubber boot and scentless soap buyers are the same kind of guys that line the pockets with cash of companies like mathews, bowtech or hoyt every year because it will help them to become a better hunter.
For the record I bought a new bow this year, I own and wear every type of camo clothing known to man. I might just try gumoflage this year. You go wrap yourself in a giant ziplock bag and go hide in the woods and I'll bet you that those search dogs could find you. Go back to colledge and get a degree in some fancy science to prove all the hunting "gimmicks" wrong. WHile you are doing that I will be hunting up and down wind of deerand I will bet any of you any amount of money that I will kill deer this year.
See you at Cabelas
Sam
You are funny and I feel right on the money!! I was at Bass Pro this week to but a new set of quality rain gear. After throwing away enough money on cheap suits, I bought the Rivers West.
I regress.... I saw the Moth Wing Camo suits and they literally stopped me in my tracks they were so cool looking. I had to stop myself from buying them by telling myself, "Fool....the deer won't care if you are wearing those or your old nasty stuff....keep walking."
It has taken me a few years to wise up but it really did hit me this year that 99.5% of hunting stuff is all marketing hype and peer pressure from other hunters. On the last hunting trip I went on I got a lot of stares and questions about my 4 year old $199 Martin Magnum. Good thing I am secure about my manhood or I might have been a little self conscious.
I also caught a lot of guff from the guide about my military surplus rain gear...according to him there was no way I'd get near a critter because it was not brand XXX.
Everyone else in camp save 1 were shooting top of the line brand new Matthews. Want to guess who came home with the bacon???
"I thought I would write you and tell you of some of my experiences with your clothing. First, having been a biology student in college and having worked in the medical industry, I know charcoal is one of the best filter mediums known. However, I was skeptical about it's use in clothing. But not now. My first experience was in October when early in the morning I walked through a group of bedded does and fawns in an open field on the way to my stand. The deer heard me and spooked. When they snorted I held still, snorted back and they snorted again. I took out my grunt call and grunted, as I alternately grunted and snorted to the deer they approached me downwind. This was with an eight mile an hour wind with 80% humidity. These were optimal conditions for the deer to scent me. They actually came back to me within 15 yards. All the time I expected them to wind me and spook but they didn't They finally moved slowly away. I would like to say it was because of my camouflage but I know better it was your Scent-Lok.
The next day, under the same conditions a doe and fawn approached me when I was just glassing my area. I was not wearing Scent-Lok and when the doe got downwind she literally turned inside out. She didn't see me but reacted to my smell.
Since then I have had nine more deer in 11 days within 150 yards downwind, including one eight point buck I grunted in within 18 yds and another that I rattled in to within five yards. When I attempted to take his picture he spotted me. He spooked but I grunted to stop him then rattled him back in again to within seven yards. During this time I had about a ten mile an hour wind and the buck was at all times downwind. He definitely should have smelled me. There is no question in my mind that Scent-Lok is the reason for my success. This is a GREAT product and it should be part of every big game hunter's wardrobe.
...Thanks for a great product, I wish I had though of it." T.R.
www.trmichels.com T.R. Michels - Minnesota
You just can't please everyone all the time... and only some of them some-of-the-time. Maybe it, this "thread", should of been DEBATE FREE?
It's really nothing to argue about. You either like something or you don't! To each their own! JMHO
Bob@work 's Link
I have had plenty of encounters/ down wind etc that say they do, and I have some that says they dont.
I do know that I wear them. I also do as much scent free prepration as I can, and try to hunt smart considering the wind.
Even setting up down wind from an approaching buck. If I call or try to getthem closer, most times I have seen them try and get down wind from my location. I believe they have bought me a few crucial extra seconds.
I would honestly say I get way more oportunties at taking deer then others who dont.
Another important issue with me is confidence. They keep me feeling confident on the stand, when all I have to do is sit there and think while hunting. Its worth it to me for the confidence level alone.
Buckiller's Link
Now that we have heard from you we are surely all convinced!!!! You guys just crack me up sometimes.
Where I hunt most of good stand locations have swirling winds. You just can't play the wind in most locations. Even when I can those darn deer seem to like to leave the trails and come on in on the downwind side of me.
IMHO I would not have killed half of my big bucks without a scent suit. But you guys that say the suits just do not work are likely the same guys I see at the gas station in your hunting clothes and boots. Or eating a spicey dish the night before or even day of a hunt. Or going to the bar all night and then hunting in the morning without a shower. Scent control is 110% or nothing. You have to be completely clean. You have to control your breath scent. You have to wash everything in scent free soap. You have to keep your boots from touching anything but the forest floor.
Say and do what ever you all want to do but me and my scent suits, God willing, will just keep on filling my walls with head mounts.
Jim
Jim
Just trying to help you boys out but do as you wish. It's all just general info anyway.
