UBP'S Last Sunday in October Proposal
Pennsylvania
The UBP Leadership proposed to the PGC moving the Sunday for Bear hunters to the last Sunday in October, and proposed it should be open to all types of hunting.
So just as the pre-rut is ending and rut is beginning, the best time to bowhunt, the UBP Leadership wants to load up a Sunday with hundreds of thousands of small game hunters to be in the woods with bowhunters.
How about every single person in a UBP "Leadership" position tell us how this is a good thing for the bowhunters of Pennsylvania.
While you're at it, explain to bear hunters why this would be good for them.
I thought you quit the UBP?
Bill I am no longer a rep. I am, however, a life member. What Harold Is doing to this organization disgusts me. And I'm not gonna keep quiet about it. Let me ask you something, when did the membership take a vote on becoming a representative organization for crossbows for the healthy? When did the membership take a vote on having the UBP propose to the Pennsylvania game commission to move a Sunday for bear hunters to a Sunday in October and open it up to all hunters?
This thread is the first I have heard this. I did read somewhere that the Sunday bear hunting day saw the least participation of the 3 Sundays. (Not sure how they know.) I can only imagine that the PGC might have been thinking of eliminating it or putting it somewhere else on the calendar. So wouldn't it be nice to be able to bow hunt deer one more day? I suppose we/they (I don't have a vote) could have been selfish and asked for bowhunting only. But can't people already hunt small game those last couple of weeks? Besides, I have not seen a small game hunter in ages. Getting an extra day to bow hunt can only be a good thing, unless you want another day to hunt spring turkeys.
Isnt surprising now is it.... No one had asked this lifetime member his thoughts either.
I can remember when we had a pile of disabled hunters that used crossbows, and became UBP members, some even life members, because the UBP was willing to do do whatever to keep the advantage of their weapon only to the disabled folks, who themselves DIDN'T want it for everyone.
Now we throw all of the storied history of gains, the hard work for bow hunters (yes 2 words) which not one crossbow org supported ANY of these gains, (Outside of the Pa Sportsmen for the Physically Disabled which didnt want it either) All this to try to gain a few members. Why didnt they create their own org? They didnt have to now did they.
Im taking another exciting trail in my 47 yr journey of showing and teaching archery and Bow Hunting (2 words again), with access to hundreds of kids and parents. What a terrible shame as it will be done as an independent instructor with no mention of my past affiliation of the state "happy hunters" org. .
Art, name one Sunday during the statewide archery season that bowhuntes currently have to share with small game hunters? There isn't one. Why the hell would the UBP want to allow guns on a Sunday during the beginning of the rut? It opens the door for guns on the Sunday in November during the rut. Am I the only one who can see it? Daub still thinks he's In the PFSC. He still thinks he's in a big tent organization. He still thinks he represents all sportsman. The rest of the leadership better grow a set and let him know his primary focus is to the bowhunters of this state. He needs to understand if what is good for bowhunters happens to be good for other hunters, great. If what is good for bowhunters isn't so good for other hunters, well that's too bad because bowhunters are his priority.
This is copied directly from the UBP Facebook Page
"UBP REQUESTS PGC CHANGE SUNDAY HUNTING SCHEDULE
At today's meeting of the PA Game Commission Board of Commissioners, the United Bowhunters of PA delivered the following public comments:
Executive Director Burhans, Deputy Executive Directors Grohol & Mitchell, Commissioners, and Staff:
On behalf of the members of the United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania, we congratulate and welcome Commissioner Pride and Commissioner Schwalm to the Board. Our members thank all of our Commissioners and the staff of the PGC for all you do in support of the PGC mission.
UBP members appreciate that you accomplish your mission with emphasis always on "resource first" and we strongly support science-based and led wildlife management.
We recognize one of the biggest barriers to hunter recruitment, retention and reactivation is time. Never has the statement "Time is of the essence" been more relevant in every aspect of our lives. It is with focus on doing all we can to mitigate that barrier that UBP respectfully suggests the Board consider the placement of the PGC's discretionary Sunday hunting opportunity.
This one day of the three days of Sunday hunting opportunity has been offered during the rifle bear season. Data was presented by agency staff at a recent meeting which indicated participation on the Sunday bear hunt has been the lowest rate of any of our three days.
We would recommend this Sunday be designated on the last Sunday of October. This would offer a much broader opportunity for participation by our Pennsylvania hunting community, including not only our Pennsylvania archers but potentially every segment of our hunting community, with the exception of waterfowlers. As an example, the following species could potentially be hunted this year on October 30, 2022:
o Squirrels; Grouse; Rabbits; Pheasants; Quail; Turkeys (in most WMU); Bear (archery); Deer (archery); Coyote; Fox; Raccoon; Opossum; Skunks; Weasels; Porcupines. Note: PA general elk season starts October 31...could it possibly start the last Sunday of October?
We would certainly prefer that the Pennsylvania Game Commission be given full regulatory authority to regulate all Sunday hunting in Pennsylvania, and always remind our members that change is in the hands of our legislative leadership. Until the legislature transfers that regulatory authority to this wildlife management agency, we do request that the agency do everything possible to ensure the best possible use of the three days of opportunity we have been granted.
We are requesting the Board request the staff prepare a study and to be prepared to present their recommendations for the best placement of that Sunday at the January 2023 Board meeting. That would provide ample time for a potential adjustment to be adopted and rolled out in 2023-24 hunting seasons.
In closing, we also would like to again publicly declare our support for the reappointment of both Commissioner Frederick and Commissioner Foradora and we urge everyone to contact the Governor's office to request these reappointments are made in a timely fashion.
We were very disappointed that our Governor and Senate allowed this Board to not have a quorum this past January.
Thank you again for all you do in support of conservation, and for the opportunity to provide this public comment on behalf of all UBP members.
Respectfully submitted, Harold Daub UBP Legislative Chairman"
Bob, good question, is the UBP behind such a proposal?
I am thinking not as the collective has always been against the horizontal thing my self included.
John, yes, this is the proposal from the UBP. See my copy & paste above, or, go to the UBP Facebook page and see what Daub posted this past Saturday.
Dale, Daub is unilaterally making all decisions for the UBP. When did the membership vote to give him complete control?
After i was setup up for a zoom meet with the ubp this past winter meeting . Many knew I was going to bring up my research on xbows and its impact on bowhunt organizations. Well I got an email from Pat (?) stating the meeting was canceled. But guess what, it was not. Still have that email. I also found out that others setup for the zoom meeting didn't get this email. So why me and not them??? This I believe is the first time I've posted here (bowsite) since I got that email.
I did post on UBP face book page last week. Harold Daub laughed at me and then said he was joking- another member said basically if I don't like the way the new UBP is being run I should just walk away. What that says to me is even though you're a member you have no voice in the UBP.
I was told the the UBP takes a resources first approach on xbows and that why we embrace crossbows. So I asked why we didn't take the resources first approach when we were fighting crossbows- that was not answered. I was also told I should not take this out in an open forum, but like i said earlier, I was basically shunned out of the meeting in the winter to do it there. I also now, want other UBP members to hear me.
With archery licenses sold at an all time high, Why did we have to tap into the life member fund to keep the UBP going. With all these new bowhunters now, why is our membership at an all time low???? Please answer!
Right now I'm starting to believe that the UBP membership that we have is starting to see the direction the UBP is going. I'd bet that the approval rating of the direction it's going would be at an all-time low. This is the first time I've seen members dissatisfied with the UBP. If any board member would like to chat with me personally, contact me. I have a very long history with the UBP. The UBP has my contract info.
Respectfully life member and endowment member, Ed Rogalski
A short thought from me. Bob, your last statement about Dauber making all decisions for the UBP is ridiculous and false. Why you would make such a statement is beyond me. Dauber has asked for approvals by the board on many issues and statements to be made. As a UBP board member I stand behind decisions that we have made and stand behind Daubers work as approved by the board. The UBP will be making a statement to this thread in the next couple of days.
Bill V
Then I stand corrected about Daub & my apologies to him. So it's the Board, deciding without input from the membership, to accept the able-bodied crossbow hunter. It's the Board, deciding without input from the membership, to propose taking a Sunday in late November away from bear hunters, sticking it in the end of October, and wanting every type of hunting on that Sunday at the beginning of the rut. Did the Board have a discussion on the possible future affect it might have on our one Sunday during the November rut?
Ed, responding to your post
You and I spoke before that meeting was to take place as you had mentioned in past threads. I can assure you that the meeting was in jeopardy of not happening as originally dated. I don’t remember the exact issue but I was in belief that the meeting was canceled too and in the end it happened as scheduled. I believe you know me well enough to take that as true. You know my phone is always on for you and everyone. I/we would never shut you or any other member from voicing they’re opinion.
Bill v
Correct me Bill if you please. The meeting in question happened to be scheduled during our biggest snow storm last winter. Instead of canceling the meeting totally, the executive branch decided upon a bod meeting. I was fine with that because members of bod were in place for a zoom. I was to attend but 12" of snow made me ask for the opportunity to attend a zoom meeting should it occur. I asked for an opportunity to speak after all bod business was taken care of. Im pretty sure Art can verify this to be mostly correct:)
After business, and I made mention of some recommendations/possible ways to increase membership, I was solidly renegged upon by upper execs for not being "inclusive" in my thoughts:) The big worry was not to seperate and pee on other hunter folks lol
I cant wait for this administration to put forth the effort to support Traditional bow hunters, the foundation of the UBP, like it has "Other" hunting groups, that have historically have fought tooth and nail against any suggestion from the UBP, that would promote BOW hunting.
Bill, Bob has a history of flying off the handle without really understanding how things work. I wouldn't worry too much about what he posts.
Steve that remark might garner a tiny bit of respect from the forum if you gave us your last name please? Only fair that Bob, a one time Reg. Director, County rep etc etc Has offered his for quite a few years. Thanks:)
Steve. Bob is a friend and very passionate about his beliefs.
Dale, I suppose your right on the weather, I did not remember the exacts. As far as membership retention and recruitment our org and all org for that matter are struggling. This has been a topic for many many years that we discuss regularly. For years I have been saying “we cannot fund our operations with membership dues” that model just does not work as it once did. We have tried, we have discussed over and over with the same results. Try and try we have with less help each year as we age and our older crews get tired. No one has made an effort to insult or intentionally dismiss your thoughts or anyone else’s. Having said that, that may have been the result in your eyes, if so, I apologize to you and others if that is the case. You, Bob, Ed , Junior are all long time UBPers as I am and have done a lot of important work in the past. That my friend deserves great thanks from all Pa bowhunters. Dale, we must move forward
Bill v
Most of the people in this thread already know it Dale. I too offered it for years. I had to remove it from all public forums as a requirement for some sensitive work that I was doing. If you, or anyone else, really want it, shoot me a PM and I'll gladly share it with you. Don't you find it ironic that someone who has repeatedly shown a lack of understanding of basic issues was a County Rep and Regional Director for the organization that he is now so critical of?
No. Not at all. How about proof of a lack of understanding of current issues. Lets start there:) Isnt he permitted an opinion? When I became a rep many many winters ago, it- UBP, was widely known as a group that was always "in-fighting".
Well that told me, that everyone was passionate enough to argue their opinion. Man it was my cup of tea. Maybe like a mosh pit? Lolol We didnt give a rats patoot what group, all of which were pizzed off at UBP and most all bow hunters after getting the 2 week extension.
So Im going at it on my own now, as my affiliation ends. I will still keep my life membership and the 300 dollars :) and have convinced those interested in life memberships to put on a moritorium on renewing membership and going lifetime, until Progress is shown "Preserving The Tradition". Thanks for your reply.
Thanks for the kind reply Bill. I know you well enough, that you dont have to thank me for anything. We all did it together.
Fair enough Dale. Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm sure you've seen the sparring between Bob, me and others regarding the ability to buy unlimited tags and everything that surrounds that. There was even some name calling going on.... oink oink.. :-)
All of you, including Bob, do have my thanks for the work that you've done. There will always be disagreement over any issue that comes up. As long as the discussion is based on truthful information, it's good to have it. As far as proof of a lack of understanding of current issues? For starters, just re-read the stuffing your pink thread. :-)
Bill..... A couple Things that stick in my cranium:) The Big Tent Theory offered during Deer Wars, has not and will never work to gain hunter numbers.
There is no way to "put on paper" the intro of the crossbow for NEW HUNTERS, because numerically, it never happened. If it is archery, then when I grab my hickory snake skin backed selfbow, then it becomes a crossbow. It goes both ways.
Lastly, and you may remember this. After paying an organization to do the demographics for hunting, which included the nation and Pa, it was found that the more time offered to hunters, the less time was spent by the individual hunter actually hunting. Go figure. THAT is why ALL hunter orgs are having issues with membership, not just The UBP. Check out the Wills Mt thread. There are not enough folks out there willingnto drop a few bucks for bucks:) But guys will drop a couple years organizational membership money to buy ozone, scent blocking stuff and think nothing about it.
"Oh but it raises my chances to kill a buck!" No. Stop it. sorry. Your chances were raised many years ago by guys that argued at UBP membership meetings, then rallied, pushed, went to meetings with the PGC and achieved the UBP goal to get more time for bow hunters.
Steve- Ill re-read that later as I'm soon to be New York bound. After I lose my $50 at the Seneca joint in Salamanca Ill head up to our room, to sulk.:) FWIW- Ill be selling pink envelopes in that big 1000 seller inside fleamarkets. What Doesnt sell will wall paper my grandsons room in our house.
Diamondback rattler skin on my osage crossbow on the left.
TimberRattler on my hickory crossbow on the right.
Diamondback rattler skin on my osage crossbow on the left.
TimberRattler on my hickory crossbow on the right.
Hunting awhile back with my 1960 Bear Grizzly crossbow.
Hunting awhile back with my 1960 Bear Grizzly crossbow.
Just a few of my crossbows. Pretty ridiculous isnt it?
Beauties. I have an Osage crossbow too but it's one of those newfangled jobs....... Have a great trip.
FYI Dale..................don’t ever get close to me with either one of those things! Or you’ll be ducking for cover from 2 rounds of .410 shot! ;-)
Rut….if your wearing them new fangled snake crocs,…your safe!!
LOL Brian! My brain knows that but I don’t know if I would trust my initial reaction! ;-)
Well Perry, I… ummm Uh… I Think I’m safe at any distance:)
Bobs got one of the baddest bows I’ve seen maybe he show it off.
Well Perry, I… ummm Uh… I Think I’m safe at any distance:)
Bobs got one of the baddest bows I’ve seen maybe he show it off.
Well Perry, I… ummm Uh… I Think I’m safe at any distance:)
Bobs got one of the baddest bows I’ve seen maybe he show it off.
Bob, I was referring to the other six days of each week that small game hunters are out there, not the other Sundays.
Just keep your dang snake bows away from me Dale and there won’t be any problems!
Well, I will add my 2 cents. The UBP is a fantastic org. I have given my time money and personal time to see this org grow. I have seen the best in not only members, but nonmembers alike coming together for the thing we call bowhunting. A pastime that has given to all of us so much and from what we have taken a great deal as well. We assemble in out wooded sanctuaries' every fall and forget that we are all still passionate about the time we spend afield with friends and family. And through the years I have been a member, I have gained more friends and memories than I thought possible. But honestly, I walked away from volunteering a few years ago as age and responsibilities have taken over my free time. But my passion for the org still burns high, and I continue to follow our progression closely. I hope through the future we get new young energetic people to take the helm of the UBP and drive it forward. In closing, the Xbow battle took a lot out of all of us, we lost and the mfg. and the NRA and the PGC won. We need to burn that bridge behind us, stand for what makes the UBP an entity that still fights, for bowhunters rights in Pa. That battle was hard fought but we were ice skating up hill, the story was written before the pen touched paper. And I for one am tired of hearing it. And those who benefited from those hard-fought battles the UBP got through, should be happy, not condemning a group for our beliefs and passion that resource first is part 1. Rant over... Jr,
Your the (old) man John. LOL. Good statement.
Am I condemning the UBP John? What do you suggest I do?
Dale, I did not call you out. But since you bring it up and as I understand it a rep for many years thanks for your involvement. And I also think that airing dirty laundry on a public site educates no one to the good things the UBP has done, but furthers more dissension not only for those that were thinking of joining but also those that not reup their memberships. I just think there may be a better way to settle difference of opinions than here. Art, you can bite me. You got way more years than I.
Dirty laundry? Maybe you’re right. We should wait until lifetime members drop another $300 or a person wants to join THEN let them find out they don’t have a voice or perhaps a mistake was made? Did you know that when the demographics were done there was not another organization with as high percentage of life members as the UBP? The folks doing it were convinced mistakes were made so they double and triple checked the numbers. They couldn’t believe it. I wish I was more involved in that.
Theres never been “dirty laundry” that I’m aware of, just some good old disagreement! There has to be! I’d rather have these out in the Open. Why hide it? Call out the unicorns:)
Dale, my point was not meant to offend. I was merely pointing out that if a new prospective member was looking at reading these message boards, and seen some of the bickering and infighting, would it sway them not to join or would it push members not to rejoin seeing it. That was all. If you're an outsider looking in, does what you see going on between those life members scare you away? I'll get to the unicorn point later. No one doubts you, or was throwing jabs your way, just making a point.
If I was a prospective member of any organization and the only comments I heard or read were all rosey I would be skeptical. And I wouldn't be too happy to join an organization and then find out things that were kept from being discussed just to lure me in.
Like more than a few others here I've been a Life Member for decades (if I remember correctly it was before the cost became $300). I participated in some things but never was as active as I could have been. I understand how the organization works and that not every thought or idea must have input from the membership but with topics that can fundamentally change the focus or direction of the organization getting feedback from members should be welcomed.
Metikki, You asked if I would show off the bow. Well she ate this morning in Bucks County. You will need to expand the picture to get a good look at the limbs the limbs of the bow.
Nice Bob. Did you take your 'Ludes to settle down enough to shoot that Thunderchild? What kind of bolts?
I am seriously considering using my sons crossbow tomorrow..... 2 years ago, It took me all of 15 minutes to put my first and last cbow together, about the time it takes to FILL OUT MULTIPLE ANTLERLESS DEER LICENSE APPLICATIONS AND PINK ENVELOPES. LOLOLOL Boy if I kill something with it during this archery hunt, ILL BE CERTAIN TO LET YALL KNOW!
Nice shot Bob. No tire tracks either. Congrats. :-)
I see the problem, the shelf is on the wrong side. LOL.
Bob, I don’t see where you get bear hunters will be able to use guns?
You posted: o Squirrels; Grouse; Rabbits; Pheasants; Quail; Turkeys (in most WMU); Bear (archery); Deer (archery); Coyote; Fox; Raccoon; Opossum; Skunks; Weasels; Porcupines. Note: PA general elk season starts October 31...could it possibly start the last Sunday of October?
Looks to me like UBP is proposing moving that Sunday to Archery deer/bear(and Turkey in some WMU’s) on the last Sunday in October..............
Perry. This is what I wrote. "So just as the pre-rut is ending and rut is beginning, the best time to bowhunt, the UBP Leadership wants to load up a Sunday with hundreds of thousands of small game hunters to be in the woods with bowhunters."
That already happens now though................
I mean it happens now on the days we CAN archery hunt. So what’s the big deal if it happens on ANOTHER day we can archery hunt? We’ve been doing it for years.............
I would be interested in learning from the UPB Board exactly what the UPB's position on the inclusion of crossbows in archery season. Thanks
To all UBP members.
From my understand so far, the Ubp President, Vice President and a few board members are all for crossbows. The Vice President on a face book post came out and stated the UBP now embraces crossbows. Last year when I started to realise there was a change going on in the UBP. I started doing research on crossbows and it's affect bowhunting organizations. I chatted with many of members of other state organization. I learned a lot chatting with them. One of the things was clear to me was how it affected membership in these organization. The only adversaries to the crossbow industry is handheld, hand-drawn organizations. The UBP stated back when we were fighting crossbows that UBP was a handheld, hand-drawn organization. I believe the present administration is trying to change that. At the winter meeting I had a presentation I was to give to them. I was setup to do it through ZOOM. I got an email the day before stating the meeting was canceled. One board member Bill Vollmerding knew what I was going to present at that meeting. From my chats on phone with him I came to realize Bill was now in support of crossbows. I also sent a message to Bill Vollmerding last week with some of my concerns as of late, I have not hear back from him. As for why I was, to my knowledge the only person that got that meeting cancellation notice is beyond me??? There's so much more I can say, but my time right now is limited. I'm not done doing research and will continue. Thanks everyone, that contacted me and spoke to me. More to come. Ed Rogalski
MT- many of us life members want to know as well. At a time when I was started, back then, our org actually stood behind "qualified" physically disabled crossbow users, and many were members, some even life members. Those disabled members didn't want inclusion either. Anybody remember John Rook? Totally blind, 13 or so P&Y entries, including some african game. He had a sight mounted on his upper trad bow limb, his buddy stood behind him and sighted the animal. Tapping his shoulder one way or another....I believe. He also made selfbows.
If what Ed has said is accurate, I am really interested in the reply as well. Xbows were, are fought against for a long time and if our hiarcery has changed course someone needs to let the membership know our position.
They say hindsight is 20/20. I wonder if instead of the UBP fighting to keep crossguns out of our archery season back then, they opted to give one week to them? Might have worked, but in all reality, I imagine they would have fought for more once the door was open.
This whole battle was ice skating up hill. There was no middle ground, and our archery seasons were under siege. We all knew what would come to pass, looking back at Ohio. The decks were stacked and the PGC delt from the bottom of the deck.
The UBP Facebook forwarded Bear season (PGC’s) thread and the first comment started out nicely then he told the UBP to stay out of rifle Bear season Sunday hunting ….
To Woody's question, (me, Muldoon and Wensler were there then). Probably from around 2006 on, we tried everything to limit crossbows, i.e.; Permit them like muzzle loaders so we would be able to count who was shooting deer with them, give them one (early) week first, give them their own season (outside of bow season), and basically bring them in incrementally so we could study the science to see the impact (the way it was done for our early bow bear season). I spoke to the then president of the PGC in the hallway during a break at a meeting and he told me the crossbows are coming and there is nothing your group can do about it. How do you fight that?
Anyone remember the year, that in protest, we signed up a couple thousand members at the Harrisburg show and printed a special edition of PA Bowhunting with a picture of a crossbow with the orange circle with the slash thru it on the cover? Our membership soared to over 7000 and we put that idea to bed. After it was over all those people abandoned ship and never renewed their memberships. Ever since, there has been a steady decline in membership to where it is today. The board has tried so many things to grow the membership over the years (I was there for 12 of them) . I am convinced that even if the PGC threatened to cancel bowhunting, that that wouldn't even grow back the membership.
What do you do when you're at a sports show trying to sign up members with a kids shooting booth asking for a $1 donation and next to you is some big fat guy who has a bowhunting tv show and he has people standing in a 50 foot line with bowhunters spending $20 to get his autograph on a hat, but they won't even spend $20 to sign up with an organization that would actually do them some good. (Note, at least Ted Nugent and Fred Eichler joined us.) We tried to unite the bowhunters back then and nobody thought they needed us.
The PGC is a money based organization. When we were teaching Bowhunter Education they forced us to abandon basic first aid, something we all considered very important, and fill that time with "compass reading". 95% of our students were never going to use a compass hunting suburban woodlots but everyone can use a primer on first aid. Seems Brunton made a big donation of money and supplied the compasses to the PGC. When your local state rep, who is a main member of the committee on hunting, shows up at your gun club and shows you pictures of the cape buffalo he shot in Africa and in every picture, he is wearing a Horton Crossbow hat, you know you are doomed. I was a UBP BOD Member at the time of the fight and we were not going to win that battle but I will say that some of our leadership could have done things better. That's all I will say on that, but if the "new" UBP has embraced crossbows for the sake of membership dollars, it puts them at the same morally bankrupt level the PGC has been at for years. Is this position published anywhere? I would like to see it in writing and also Teeton's report. I would also like to see the UBP's actual financial statement published yearly.
Art, when I joined the UBP as a life member back in the late 70's the UBP was already fighting to keep crossbows out of the regular archery season (except for the truly handicapped) and we were successful for many years. It wasn't until around 2006 that the crossbow manufactures started the push to have crossbows included in all archery seasons and that was not just in Pa, it was nationally. Once they started dumping big money into their campaigns and taking legislators on hunting trips out west, it was only a matter of time. Remember when I think it was Barnett took State Representative Bob Godshall on a trip and he wouldn't admit it? The president of the PGC that you were talking to at the PGC meeting was right. There wasn't a damn thing we could do about it. The deck was stacked against us. It's hard to fight multi-national companies that have millions of dollars. You know the old saying " Money talks and BS walks".
Yes, $ funded xbow MFG- never science based or actually a clamoring from any group for the inclusion, only MFG and terrible lazy archers called for it.
My point is even though they are legal don't mean the UBP has to support them. I can start a list of states that the Crossbow became legal, but the state bowhunting org's openly say they do not support them. Some of the same guys the UBP was fighting against crossbows is now running it. I heard a rumor that it was suggested that the UBP membership to be polled on this. It was shot down by some upper executive board members,, Stating that "Then we will have to do what they want" To me that stated "Member's don't have a voice in this org"
A weak org can't come out and say,,, Hey with archery technology the way it is, we need to start putting limits on this technology.
What Art, Buck and Grizz state is absolutely true. Theres a few bowhunting warriors here......:)
Its understandable that not every decision be passed by the membership for approval, an example would be a time sensitive emergency one. I talked to an ex-member about 2 months ago at a weekend shoot. He quit the UBP because we "didn't fight hard enough". I used to tell folks that the UBP membership was cheaper than a case of beer and a pizza. I used to give one free membership away each year for a spell, and not once did a renewal occur. You get what you pay for.
So we need to use email better and maybe even a private membership only UBP fb page, So this kind of stuff does not occur anymore. This...... ALL OF IT-is needed to grow. We've been here before.
I have offered a couple ideas, none of which were going to get us a couple thousand members, but would SHOW the UBP STILL supports Bow Hunters. They were quickly shot down.
I do know one way though, to start gaining new members but Im pretty sure todays UBP admin would not support it.
Yes… publicly come out in opposition to crossbows and then fight to have them removed from archery season, to the point they are mandated for use in only rifle season. The only exception being a documented disabled person. Then, and only then, would I consider joining.
As publicly stated here and on other forums, I could never understand the laix se fare attitude of the UBP for their inclusion. Just because some stuffed shirt tells you you don’t have a chance, of keeping them excluded, should never be a reason for quitting the fight. And to make these types of decisions without full membership voting is beyond ridiculous. JMO
Crossbows are here to stay and there's nothing anybody can do about it,regardless of how hard they fight.I used to be involved with a hunt in a PRD.Five years ago,I took my 12 year old son to qualify with broadheads.HE WAS THE ONLY KID AND THE ONLY ONE THERE WITH A COMPOUND.I no longer have anything to do with that program but last year I was told that out of 125 hunters,only about 12 hunt with bows.Bow season is now crossbow season for the majority of hunters.Interstingly,when they qualify,the crossbow hunters are allowed to shoot from a shooting stick and some of them can't put three bolts into a 6" circle at 20 yards.
Buck, I think that Godshall was the one Griz was talking about because he came to our club in Lower Providence too. I am not so sure using the words support and embrace them are the right words to use as are accept and allow them in. We always said that if the science said crossbows were detrimental to the resource we would have to support that. Publicly opposing them and fighting them would be a waste of time and ultimately money.
You know what? We have more time than ever to hunt, including Sundays. Less competition for space in the woods. Bears for 3 weeks. Just go hunt. One of my best friends makes longbows as a business and has a senior license now and he gets excited like a kid on christmas eve just waiting for Fridays so he come up and go hunting every weekend. He could care less what someone uses. Have fun, go hunt.
Art, Yes it was Godshall and I knew him personally. He told me straight out how he hated archery because he found a dead deer with an arrow in it on his family farm back in the 50s. He tried at one point to shut down archery all together and if I remember right, the PGC switchboard just about blew up. The real point here goes back to what we argued and that is that crossbow hunting is not archery hunting. If there is no drawing back the bow in the presence of game, it is not archery hunting in my opinion. And every archer that ever hunted with a bow knows that is true. Today in my neck of the mountains, every farmer that NEVER archery hunted now kills his deer in archery season. The woods are dead in rifle season. These rifle converts are NOT archers and never will be but they are hunters and now have that right. The damn has busted and we will never be able to reel it back in but it would be nice to have an organization fighting against the tide of technology. It does not appear to me that the UBP wants to do that and would rather try and maintain its coffers with crossbow member's dollars. I'd rather see a smaller grass roots organization that gets respect from its members and actually does something now instead of living on past victories.
I don't get it fellows. To me this is a black and white issue. For example, I know what Pope & Young's position is on crossbows. If the UPB has a position, then it should so state it. If it does not have a position, then it should get one. I have been a year-to-year member of UPB for some time. I am a life member of Pope & Young and a member of the Fred Bear Society. I was considering becoming a life member of UPB. If the position of UPB is to welcome the unrestricted use of crossbows into PA's archery season, then I am done. I would support use of CB by disabled hunters (like it was in the past) and maybe a few days of doe (not buck) for youth. But that is it. Don't recall ever getting a survey from UPB asking for my opinion though.
Doug
"Interstingly,when they qualify,the crossbow hunters are allowed to shoot from a shooting stick and some of them can't put three bolts into a 6" circle at 20 yards."
I belong to several FB groups, Bowhunting PA and such. The majority of "bow" kills are with xguns. And the sad thing is, better than half it seems, they need a tracking dog after losing the trail after a couple hundred yards. For the love of God, you have a shoulder stock firmly nestled against your shoulder, fingers wrapped around a pistol grip, forearm braced against a shooting rail or securely mounted to a tripod, an "X" power scope, illuminated reticle, range set,.... basically like shooting as Ravin so eloquently stated "your next 100 yard rifle" and can't make a clean kill. Anectodal at best, but the farm I have hunted for the last fifteen years, we would occasionally find deer during rifle season or during winter scouting still carrying an arrow. The last three years, we've been finding several a season. With bolts.
Sorry, xguns are for (PD not included) folks that want to be a bowhunter without the effort.
Chris (Griz) makes good points. I agree with what he said in his comments/
I will stay out of the business end of things but some have brought up wounding rates and such in this thread. Here is some actual data from Ohio DNR about shot distances, hits, misses, wounding for different bow types. It is interesting..............
The average shooting distance for all bowhunters was 25 yards, but shots that hit the deer averaged 22.4 yards, almost 30 percent closer than shots that missed, 31.1 yards. Accuracy decreased with distance for all bow types. Most shots taken with compounds and crossbows were 20 to 24 yards, and most shots taken with traditional gear (recurves and longbows) were 15 to 19 yards. The average shooting distance for compound hits was 22.6 yards, and the average miss was 31.6 yards. The average shooting distance for crossbow hits was 22.4 yards, and the average miss was 31.1 yards. Compound bow archers released 1,015 shots and connected on 686, for 67.6 percent accuracy. Crossbow archers released 719 shots and connected on 529, for 73.6 percent accuracy. Traditional archers released 38 shots and connected on 22, for 57.9 percent accuracy. Crossbow archers recovered 60 percent of deer they shot at, and didn’t recover 19 percent of deer they hit. Compound archers recovered 56 percent of deer they shot at, and didn’t recover 17.7 percent of deer they hit. Traditional archers recovered 40 percent of the deer they shot at, and didn’t recover 30 percent of deer they hit. Overall, bowhunters didn’t recover 18.5 percent of deer they hit.
Just about every bunter I knw has switched to a crossbow.Almost every single one has switched because of increased range.As far as wounding rates go,they suck equally between compounds and crossbows.
I'm not going to degrade crossbows because at this point,I just don't care.I did have a chance to haul one around for my son and watched him easily kill several deer from 7-10 years old that I wouldn't have shot at with my compound.One day I even killed one with it because we doubled up on deer and only had one weapon between us.It was ridiculously easy,actually anti-climatic.He felt the same way and ditched it when he started to hunt with a compound at 11.Still,I don't fault those who use them because it has no impact on me.One thing I will say.Based on the ridiculously easy nature of a crossbow and assuming those stats are correct,it's obvious that those using crossbows are taking much poorer shots.Either that or they simply don't know how to follow up on a wounded deer.
"The average shooting distance for crossbow hits was 22.4 yards, and the average miss was 31.1 yards." "Crossbow archers recovered 60 percent of deer they shot at, and didn’t recover 19 percent of deer they hit."
Really? THAT is the best they can do with a scoped, shoulder mounted, tripod secured weapon?
"Almost every single one has switched because of increased range."
Our one stand borders a soybean/corn field. It's about 60 acres or so. There are several ground blinds along the perimeter used by xgun hunters. We know they are xgun users because in either late mornig or mid afternoon, we see them toting their crew served weapon to and from. And routinely witness them taking 80,90, 100+ yard shots. And the results later in the season.
But, but ,UT Gene will tell you all you're infinitely wrong and your eyes are lying to you and they don't take 100 yard plus shots, and blah blah blah blah...
Actually, Gene wont say that because some guys do take shots that they have no business taking. I have always been honest about it. Just as some guys have no business taking 40 yards shots with their compounds and 400 yard shots with their rifles. My furthest shot at game was 42 yards. It is up to us, as hunters, to educate others about our weapons of choice and shot selection.
"It is up to us, as hunters, to educate others about our weapons of choice and shot selection."
And just how do you propose we do that? Hell, Ravin's ad "Meet your next 100 yard rifle" along with every IG, FB, influencer touting such shots. Guys aren't buying xguns to make 20 yard shots easier. Their buying them, because they require little practice, and they "think" they can extend their range ~4-5X. Benefits of archery season, nice weather, long season, 100 yard range. You lobbied for the damn things, now you want us to help educate. You're so barking up the wrong tree....
"Crossbow archers recovered 60 percent of deer they shot at, and didn’t recover 19 percent of deer they hit. Compound archers recovered 56 percent of deer they shot at, and didn’t recover 17.7 percent of deer they hit. Traditional archers recovered 40 percent of the deer they shot at, and didn’t recover 30 percent of deer they hit. Overall, bowhunters didn’t recover 18.5 percent of deer they hit. " What happened to the 21%, 26.3% and 30% respectively? In my simple mind you either recovered or didn't. Never considered a 'third' category.
Bowbender said; "And just how do you propose we do that? Hell, Ravin's ad "Meet your next 100 yard rifle" along with every IG, FB, influencer touting such shots. Guys aren't buying xguns to make 20 yard shots easier. Their buying them, because they require little practice, and they "think" they can extend their range ~4-5X. Benefits of archery season, nice weather, long season, 100 yard range. You lobbied for the damn things, now you want us to help educate. You're so barking up the wrong tree...."
I do it all of the time, Bowbender. Just as the UBP spends countless hours educating new archery hunters about archery hunting with compound bows. I didn't specifically ask for your help in educating new crossbow hunters but the help is always welcome. As far as the Ravin advertising campaign. I have made my thoughts known to them in very pointed terms. I disagree with it for many reasons. I did not "lobby" for crossbows. I never once met with a representative about them. What I did do was help organize a crossbow org, send countless emails, made many phone calls, and testified at commissioner meetings. I don't expect your help on education. Do what you see as fit. I, on the other hand, will help educate any hunter, regardless of their weapon of choice. Be it a rifle, crossbow, flintlock or compound as I have decades of experience with all of them.
VonFoust, I believe you are referring to shot at but missed.
" I did not "lobby" for crossbows. "
"What I did do was help organize a crossbow org, send countless emails, made many phone calls, and testified at commissioner meetings."
Got new for you.Skippy. That IS lobbying. And I have educated quite a few on shooting a bow, it's limitations, the need for practice, not just one week before. But the xgun attracted the same gun hunters that shoot their rifles once or twice the day before the season opener. That ain't changing... Perhaps a proficency test prior to license purchase. Yay or nay?
Skippy? Always got to make things personal huh? By lobby, I take it as working the halls of the state capital building as a lobbyist. I thought that was what you meant. Anyways. I got news for you as well. Do you know why the week before the bow opener is hell week according to the pro shops? That would be because there are many compound archers that also do not practice like they should. Proficiency test maybe? A friend of mine would be one of those. He picks up his compound, shoots two arrows and hits the woods. Surprising, he does pretty well.
Ok, that thought process goes both ways. I was in an archery shop, the night before the opening day and watched 3 guys buy new xguns that night. 2 out of the 3 asked about the new 10o yards shot distance out of the box. I actually thanked the bow tech for actually educating them while not discourage them at the same time. So, you're crutch on just archers do this is a far stretch.
I never implied it was only one group. Every group is guilty of it. Rifle hunters, crossbow hunters, compound hunters. That bow tech did good. As I said before in a response directly to you, I agree that some crossbow hunters take shots too far and don't practice and am completely honest about it.
I was in lancaster archery on Monday night, getting my bow worked on. I was there less than 20 minutes, I seen two guys who never bow hunted ever, and asked to be set op with a 1400 xgun. Amazing. That tech actually asked if they ever hunted before with a bow, both responses were no. 10 minutes in, also the distance thing was posed as well. This week I seen it.
Good luck guys. It is October and soon to be sweet November. I only posted in this thread since wounding rates were brought up and I don't want this thread which is about the UBP's position on crossbows and which Sunday's are legal to be derailed. Hoping to see some nice bucks on the ground in the coming weeks here. I will bow out of this thread.
"VonFoust, I believe you are referring to shot at but missed."
Thanks, I guess that thought never occurred to me:)
"Skippy? Always got to make things personal huh? "
Nope. Just a light hearted jab. Nothing more, nothing less.
"Anyways. I got news for you as well. Do you know why the week before the bow opener is hell week according to the pro shops? That would be because there are many compound archers that also do not practice like they should."
Not sure what shop(s) you're in but I'm in LAS and Kinsey's a good bit. Stopped in the week before to pick up two tubes of fletching glue. There were three younger (hell everyone's younger than me) in line with their new bows, ready to check out. Or should I say, xguns. Kinsey's xgun display is as large as compounds.
So, after all of this what exactly is the UBP's actual position on it? Are we cowering or just kneeling? If one of the officers wants to chime in here, please PM me.
Who's freaking cowering here? Seems most everyone on here is saying the same! The UBP BOD's are here. Theyre watching and reading.
Just because we got all kinds of "Good Stuff" is probably why nobody gives a rats rear about joining ANY hunters org. Nothing left to fight for??
Look at the support from above here!!! If we give in and accept the crossbow shooter, Id be surprised to see 200 crossbow UBP members by this time next year. So lets ask upon membership what Type of weapon you use, something the PGC shouldve done long ago- BUT IF YOU DONT KEEP TRACK OF NUMBERS you cant be PROVED WRONG!
Since we got all the great seasons and opportunities, which is unprecedented btw, Whats left for the bowhunters group to fight for? How about for the bow hunter? We have opportunities, but you must think out of the box. We always worry about seasons, but not necessarily opportunities! The UBP needs to prove it works for Bow Hunters.
Im shocked that the efforts of those that busted thier a$$es for 20+ years, that got this org the respect- at one time considered to be the model state org in the US, and incredible progress for Bow hunters, were tossed aside for some new member numbers.
Agreed Dale!! Still waiting to hear the organization’s official position….
^^^ what Dale and Mad Trapper said. ^^^ We’re still waiting!
Dale X3
Big business sure seems to be running the entire hunting agenda.
"Big business sure seems to be running the entire hunting agenda."
Spot. On. Ravin xbows was sold to Velocity Outdoors for $94M. That's right $94,000,000.
Been away for awhile, first time back to bowsite in a bunch of weeks. Sorry for the absence. I’m so glad to see so much interest in there, this kind of emotion has been missing for a long time. Where has this been for all these recent years as the UBP was staffed by just a few individuals doing the work for so many? The UBP is in the process of modernizing our statements, our views, our approach to social media, Everything. Does it really matter? We’ve had no help, very little input ((except for a few individuals here) all the while having a shrinking membership every year. This may not be favorable to some, maybe a suggestion would be to come and help up. Bill v
Bill, I'm pretty sure you know my position on what you are asking but more to the point of this discussion is the question posed: Is the UBP currently embracing and accepting crossbows to try and boost membership numbers (meaning dollars)? YES or NO. I don't think anyone wants to hear the "science based" response. Technology is growing more in the crossbow arena than anywhere else and some of us would like to know if the UBP has looked deeper than just crossbow vs bow and is looking at the coming technologies both within the crossbow world and things such as the Airbow. If the answer is YES, then it has serious implications that are more than just crossbow vs bow. From my viewpoint, it appears the answer is YES but I, and others, would like to hear a response from those in charge. For those that don't know me, I am a Life Member, former County rep, and former Director.
You know Griz you keep throwing around that "boost membership numbers (meaning dollars)" phrase. As if anyone is getting rich from this. I remember in all of my times (I was) behind the membership table at shows when it only cost $20 and we resisted raising it to $25, we were telling people that they should join because the strength of the organization was in numbers (not because we wanted their money). If that was the case we'd be asking for $40 or $50 a year for dues.
Hi Bill, Hi Art. Guys, not getting into the weeds on this, and I would never step over anyone's boundaries. But reading this thread has really made me realize a few things. There are some long time members that have given a lot to the UBP, me included and there are an awful lot of guys that also fought their guts out for not only the survival of bowhunting in Pa but also some really good forward progress as well. There are a few things that come to mind on the front, and I will not bore you with mentioning them as we are all familiar. But, we are complaining on a public message board, and to date there has not been any forthcoming answers, Bill's statement aside as to where we stand. I am going to put something together to the BOD and ask what is on my mind, after all they are elected. And elected by who? The membership, let's get some one on one banter going and ditch this message board. We need another x-bow debate in our ranks like we need our Govenor deciding what is best for hunting in Pa. I will bow out and let my pen do some talking. Stay positive and be nice, until it's time to not be nice.
John Davison, I Respectfully disagree with your part on talking on an open forum. Maybe we shouldn't have to come to an open forum but how else can UBP members chat and share information to each other when we live 50, 100 or 200 miles a part? If it wasn't for this open forum many of UBP members wouldn't know about the UBP embracing crossbows. I sent a message to a (1) bod last week asking to chat, I got a reply saying ok. I have not heard back yet from him, it's been about a week. I sent a message to Bill V about 2 weeks ago, I have not heard a reply.
So for everyone saying keep it off an open forum, please tell me how us UBP members can communicate with each other? Ed
Ed, Just saw your message yesterday, I should be home tonight. I will try to call you
Bill v
That will be fine Bill, looking forward to chatting. Thanks,, Ed
Art, I never said anything about getting rich. I know as well as you that the dues barely cover expenses. I'm saying that if an organization can not sustain itself with the membership it was designed to protect, namely bowhunters, and has to recruit and bend to accept the same group it fought against, then maybe it should fold and then reform itself into a new organization with a new name and logo. I'm going to say it straight out: The UBP no longer is "Preserving the Tradition" and it seems more and more that it is NOT United. I spent many hours sitting at shoots trying to sign members up and it was a great day if we got 2 new members and this was when we had a fight on our hands. The UBP has lost its relevance, respect and apparently its primary objective. The future of "real" bowhunting is in jeopardy and that should be more of a concern than how many members there are. At one time, with not very many members, the UBP had clout and respect in Harrisburg because we had purpose and an objective. I don't believe that exists anymore. All that being said, I hope for an organization that fights against rising technology within the crossbow world, airbows, pods, etc and fights for a traditional only season, limits on optics, mandatory education and other potential betterments. We need to have focus on "drawing in the presence of game". Thank you,
Ed, that is the beauty of America, you can disagree. Obviously you are frustrated, and I understand. However again, airing dirty laundry on a public message board was and is not going to get any answers by muddying the waters with complaints when we do have elected BOD's that can and will get back to you. Last time I checked, the BOD's and president positions are not paid positions and that being said, people have lives and life happens. Sometimes not on our time schedule but I have met a lot of them, and it did not seem to me that they take the avoidance path much. I mean one of them is ex law enforcement, nuff said. There are you happy, you dragged me back in?
John.
The problem is the BOD is NOT repsonding. And this isn't "airing dirty laundry". It's wanting a clear concise position on xbows. Just becasue the BOD is elected to represent the UBP, that doesn't make them exempt from PUBLIC criticism when they fail to do their job. Private lives not withstanding. Our politicians are not exempt from public criticism, why sweep this under the rug. Which is exactly what it looks like.
Tom. I presume you are talking about me. I have spoken to a couple of individuals associated to this thread. Any revamping of UBP statements will be posted once complete. I expected completion of such and posted earlier, that has not happened as final statements are not complete and approved. The UBP was set up a long time ago, updating may be in order, whatever form that takes, what ever that may mean. If you would like I will certainly discuss with you, send me a pm with your number. I will not get ahead of any updates the UBP may make. You are more than welcome to criticize me and/or the Org if you desire, certainly won’t be the first time or last
BV
Bill,
It wasn't directed at you per se, but overall. This has been going on for a very long time and it seems that UBP, instead of getting out in front, several years back, has a more "wait and see" attitude on this. I've been on the UBP Facebook page, along with a number of other bowhunting/archery groups. The prevalant attitude is, who cares what weapon, as "I" have time in the woods. From In-liners not understanding why their "single shot rifle" really isn't a primitve arm and not what flintlock season was created for, to xbowers riding on the coat tails of all the hard work that was done the last forty years, wanting the longer archery season, without ALL that goes into it.
PM sent.
Just out of curiosity,what point would it be for the UBP to staunchly oppose crossbows at this point?There's no way they'll ever go away and any effort to remove them would be a waste of time,energy and resources.I've never been much of an activist but wasn't thrilled when they were approved.There's a lot of things I don't particularly care for.I don't like blinds.I can't stand it when people shoot at running deer with a rifle but shoot a sitting bird and I'll never hunt with you again.I hunt for my own reasons and I hunt the way I feel I should.I have no control over how someone else chooses to kill anything except for my son.I mentored him from a young age and I tried to instill into him the code of ethics that I live by.That's about all we can really do.To me,the guy shooting a rested crossbow out of his blind,over a foodplot just doesn't get it.I feel bad for that guy because he's really missing out.Other than that,I don't give a frog's fat arse what he does.
I didn’t see this as whether the UBP should oppose crossbows. They are legal and there is no going back. But the question I see is whether the UBP should recruit and accept crossbow users as members.
That’s a difficult question. Should the organization stay aligned with with the original mission or be more open to include other hunters for the sake of boosting membership?And if it chooses to be more open to get more members why stop with crossbow shooters? The history of other organizations shows there will be a core group of members dedicated to the organization and many others will come and go without becoming involved.
I have an opinion but don’t have an answer. I just hope the leadership listens to the members that have shown continued support over the years. .
I’m in Va and returning home later today. Our 96 yr old Great Aunt and 2x retired Prioress is celebrating her platinum-75 years, as a Benedictine Nun, so my heart has been lightened:) Seeing that there is still a fire from above here in Manassas, as well as this minuscule of importance :) message board does me good;)))
Congratulations Dale on your Aunt. There are more important things in life than this message board….that is one for sure. God bless her!!!
For those 100 yard shots. https://ravincrossbows.com/product/ravin-100-yard-illuminated-550-scope/
For those 100 yard shots. https://ravincrossbows.com/product/ravin-100-yard-illuminated-450-scope/
This is a must have for bowhunters. https://ravincrossbows.com/product/ravin-tacheads-bi-pod/
Will this also have support?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r230NklTDs
Well, I did what I set out to do, and that was get some clarity on the direction of the UBP and also had a great chat with our current president. I am not going to go into the weeds on here but suffice to say I enjoyed our discussion, and he (UBP) had some really valid points. I would say that if we as members have questions as to where the UBP is heading and the direction that they want to progress in I think that contacting our new President would be a start, as well as some of the BOD, they may surprise you. The annual meeting is coming up, as well as the banquet. So guys, reach out and see what they have to say. I was (am) as staunchly against the X-bow, and my attitude has not softened or changed, but my understanding of what we are up against as an organization has changed. We all picked the UBP as life members for a reason, and those reasons are that we love and want to protect Bowhunting in PA. Those reasons are still strong judging by some of the posts, that has not changed. But for those same reasons, we must continue to grow the sport if what we know, and love wants to survive. The BOD's and our new president is not the enemy, they are still fighting but the world we find ourselves fighting that battle in has changed. Therefore the mission must change. I will not post here our discussion, but I urge you to reach out and see for your self. Jr.
Well said John! And I agree 100%! I look forward to having an IN-PERSON Annual meeting this year and urge anyone with concerns to attend! I’ll also be attending the Winter Banquet and again urge folks to attend -it’s another good way to meet the UBP BOD and officers and discuss any issues FACE TO FACE!(it’s also just a really fun evening! ;-)
It would seem to me that if you don’t want to get into the “nuts and bolts” of your conversation with the Pres. and BOD, they, should make a joint statement on ALL social media platforms outlining the UBPs plans for the future, and exactly how they plan to pursue those goals. After all, they are the ones advertising of FB, etc. for new members. I would love to be a member of my states Bowhunters Association, but would never join without knowing the organizations future plans, and how they plan to handle the crossbow issue. Again, and I’ve stated this before, it seems like the UBP is an eastern part of the state org. because I see absolutely nothing, and I mean NOTHING, about inclusion or recruitment of Western Pa. members.
Jim, I agree. And I asked that very question and was informed that they were working on the response. I would also add, they have a very good contingency from out western pa as well. Your more than welcome to reach out as well.
"crossbow issue" seems tough. I know quite a few people that use a compound sometimes and a crossbow sometimes. How do you handle them?
BC173 X2 on his post just a few posts up.
I've been and am still following this thread to see exactly what the UBP's stance is on crossbows.
Thanks to everyone who has provided info thus far.
The January meeting is not far away, calendar wise. Personally, have not been to one in a while but really kicking around going this time.
There are and have always been some members that could care less about crossbows, and Sunday hunting. That’s the way it is, and was. We also had handicapped folks that NEEDED TO USE CROSSBOWS and expected us to PROTECT THEIR SOLE RIGHT TO USE ONE. Just as we had many folks that weren’t happy about Sunday hunting. We weren’t perfect then nor now. We monitored our membership for several years and it was 50/50 So we couldn’t make a statement. If we weren’t a great org, then none of the National Orgs would’ve zeroed in on our admins to pull them away.
So you want to know critical issues before joining? Join. Go to a BOD meeting and SPEAK UP THERE Cheap chits it’s what.....I don't even know anymore.... $30-$35 to join? I know we used to get lunch so you’ll get satisfaction of pukin your feelings all over the place, plus mebbe something to fill your belly up for grub.
As far as western involvement. Boys I’ve been representing the UBP in WPa since 91 or 92. Signed up clubs, held seminars, gave away memberships, sat at 3Ds, ran Bowhunter Ed classes volunteered for UBP for the following: Pheasants Forever Youth Field Days, NWTF Youth Field Days, NWTF Women In The Outdoors Program, PGC STATE Becoming an Outdoor Woman Programs, 3 different sportsman’s clubs and their Youth Field Days events, 2 churches and their “Adventure Days” events. With money from the UBP and USA ARCHERY (Olympic) We started a Park and Rec archery program that for 10 years SOLD OUT. All These events were EVERY YEAR for about 10 years or so. I still represent the UBP for my only event, a small church Adventure Day outside of Ligonier that may get 30 to 50 kids. It is by far my most favorite event in my many years of servitude to UBP and BOW HUNTING. I seek no recognition, so please don’t.... There is much more that was done in affecting progress for every friggin one of you reading this. Don’t like the UBP?? then show it by killing only little bucks and NOT shooting bigger bucks, or by NOT hunting in a 50 yard Safety ZOne, Or you should wear Flo Orange all the Time, or DO NOT bear hunt with a bow, Hell prove how you worry about that $30-or $35 BY ONLY HUNTING for the first 4 weeks then put away your bows!
I made my opinions known during a zoom meeting. It wasn’t met eagerly. I have no doubt our current BOD’s want the UBP to succeed. It’s the road taken that’s what they need help with. Right now bowhunters have it better than it was 25 years ago. What’s to fight over or what’s to fight For?
We/you/US/ the UBP need to think outside the box. I know what I want to see. There are places that need us and could use us, even better as UBP representatives as members. These BOD’s need direction from bow hunting members. I had mentioned to one of the higher execs that I don’t want him to quit his position, just to fight like hell for bow hunters.
So since several mentioned crossbows, here is my position: 1st I have no issues with physically disabled using them. My brother uses one, as does my son occasionally.
Ive always thought that giving a young kid a weapon he doesn’t cock or load, doesn’t even carry it to a blind (I hunt out of a blind sometimes) sticks the weapon on a tripod, then when a deer ventures in the target picture the kid (Possibly sleeping) looks thru a scope and pulls a trigger is kind of a cheap way to make a hunter.....let alone bow hunter. A dead deer becomes a Participation Trophy.
So I can use the same tool a young child uses successfully.
Ya know I always wanted to be a great baseball player. Using the same methodology as my last statement, I’m going to sign up for Tee ball and play alongside the little toddlers. Same exact reasoning, if they can use it so can I! Right? ~(8o) Do you see how ridiculous this can be? Think outside the box......
Bowhunting 5C, I imagine it's going to be on hell of a response...the BOD's been working on it since September 27.
UBP President Nelson has an editorial response in the latest edition of the Pa. Outdoor News (Dec. 9th edition) in the "Commentary " section that addresses most all of the concerns regarding Sunday hunting here and why the UBP is pursuing the direction that it is. Pretty tough to disagree with the logic - if possible, I think everyone should read it.
Good post Dale. Can anyone find a link to what Steve is talking about?
A tiny tid-bit for those that are still following this thread. It only seems like yesterday that I was a spry young bowhunter, looking for acceptance among my own kind. At Boulder Valley, Wapiti, Limerick, Lower Providence I was able to shoot till my hearts content and no one brow beat me, they all encouraged me. Joining the UBP and getting wrapped up in the many things that they do was like gas on a fire. I could not get enough, and the journey began. Then there were whispers, of a day coming that Xbows will be made legal here just like in OH. And we doubted it, nonsense from sky falling people, that would never pass. The reality of it started sinking in when we hear the MFGs were wining and dining the PGC, trips abound to foreign places with their equipment. We wrote, called, protested, held meetings, and wrote some more. The NRA stuck their greedy noses in it even. And the darkest day came to pass, they went legal for everyone. We were stunned, dismayed and pretty much exhausted from this fight only to have it decided before a vote happened.
The irony of this is, it was 13 years ago. Seems like yesterday but they have been legal this long. Like I mentioned early, the battle is still out there, but the landscape on which we fight this is also different. If the goal is to grow our sport, pass it on to kids, teach them and instill our traditions and values on them, and bring fresh faces into our ranks, then the way we fight has to evolve as well. But 13 years is a long time to let this fester, infect the very core of what we as bowhunters stand for. Not saying give up but fight even harder, but smarter. We cannot live without new members, nor can we be a viable resource for getting things done in Harrisburg without numbers. And that means compromise. Sorry for the Rant, Dale brought up some great points.
We’ve been compromising. If anyone out there believes that c-bow folks will pump up our numbers, you’re crazy. Step away from your bow lol. Oh you’ll get maybe 100 or 200 in the best of scenarios you will get 400. Is it worth forgetting the incredible positive history, our reputations? Our we elitists? Uh yeah damn straight.
I have ideas and I’ve been reading the winds on various platforms. You’re not going to rid the crossbow. But you may control it. :)
Thanks again to everyone that is contributing information to this thread.
"So you want to know critical issues before joining? Join."
Yes, I actually would like to know what the UPB's stance is on crossbows before I join. I'd never give one cent to any organization that supported something I was totally against. If that makes me a "Cheap chit" then so be it, I've been called worse.
I do greatly appreciate everything the UPB and what guys like Dale and others on this thread have done for PA bowhunters.
I'm just a red neck that likes to hunt with my recurve bows and my opinion and $2 will get you an XL gas station coffee. I'm not here to piss anyone off or argue, I'm just looking for info.
Thanks again and no disrespect meant to anyone. - Jim
Jim If you’re a trad guy, you’re telling everyone that you’re cheap redneck at heart :) In 97 I bought a Selfbow at my first UBP Luncheon auction at Lancaster during my 1st Pa Bowhunters Convention. Dwight Schuh was the Luncheon speaker. Probably 300 folks AT THE SOLD OUT LUNCHEON. Yeah we even had live auctions at the luncheon.
I made my 1st selfbow because I couldn’t afford a new Recurve, 3 kids and being the bread winner meant I had to learn to make a bow. I may be the worlds leading Trader of trad archery gear. I try to make everything...... I’m cheap as hayl...:)
Dale said: "If anyone out there believes that c-bow folks will pump up our numbers, you’re crazy. "
This is something that I actually wholeheartedly agree with Dale on. Yes I agree with Dale. I have a fair bit of experience within the world of crossbows and I can tell you that trying to build the membership ranks with middle to late aged crossbow users is barking up the wrong tree. I will admit without hesitation that the passion for hunting, conservation, education and recruitment is much stronger among the vertical archery ranks. Probably the strongest of all hunting groups. Hunters and the sport of hunting needs organizations fighting for hunters and fighting for archery hunting. To be able to do that in the future, recruiting new, younger members to fill the shoes of the aging sporting orgs crowd is crucial.
I am not a UBP member. Could I be in the future? Absolutely. Thinking outside of the box that currently exists but this is where my agreement with Dale diverges, I believe. The greatest challenge facing hunting and archery hunting in the future is our dwindling ranks. Recruiting kids, young adults and women to the sport has never been as important as it is now. Time is of the essence and is a precious commodity. The world has changed. People are being pulled in directions that they never were in the past. Kids don't know how to go "outside and play". If a window of time exists to get someone interested in hunting or archery, everything should be on the table to make it happen. To get that kid, young adult, or women interested in hunting/archery and to actually get them into the field. Getting them into the field is a big accomplishment. Being successful with a harvest in a reasonable amount of time is important to build that passion today. Passion is the driver for continued participation. I look at that kid, young adult or women with their first crossbow harvest as an opportunity, not "a cheap way to make a hunter"
There are still some that feel that kids should not hunt till they are twelve, women should not be in deer camp and only certain weapons/techniques should be utilized. While that is everyone's right to feel that way, that is not a recipe for tackling the challenges that sporting orgs and hunting faces moving forward. That brings me back to how the crossbow fits in. Yes, I feel crossbows belong in archery seasons. That is not a popular opinion among some, but the reality is crossbows are in archery seasons in many states, including Pennsylvania.
If the emphasis is on attracting new blood to the ranks and growing the sport, all of the tools that are are available should be utilized if that precious window of time opens up. I have seen it way too often for it to be a coincidence. Kids, young adults and women dabbling into flinging arrows downrange and being excited about it. Not efficient enough to take aim at game. Utilizing the crossbow to hit the field. Seeing success with that crossbow in the field as the passion builds. Some wanting more and making the switch to vertical bows and continuing to hunt. Passionate. Involved. New. Something that we are losing every year as the older generations hang it up. The type of hunters that sporting orgs would love to gain and retain. Get to them young. Get to them fast if there is interest. Get them hunting......................
The gun hunters that picked up the crossbow are not the future. Vertical archers that are stuck in their ways are not the future. The future is in the hands of those that recognize the challenges, use the tools that are available to take advantage of that small window of time when it opens up and can balance the crossbow issue with organizational objectives. The crossbow is a tool with recruitment potential for vertical archery. I have seen it too often. One doesn't have to wrap their arms around it but one can use it to work towards preserving traditions and increasing opportunities when they exist. Thinking outside of the box............................
OK Art, You ask and ye shall receive. Here is a scan of the UBP Pres. Nelson's Commentary that I referred to in the above post. I hope you all can open this and are able to read it. Like I said - it is pretty tough to disagree with the logic here. You can mark me down as supporting this position.
Nearly 1/2 of all Pennsylvania hunters now hold an archery stamp. Telling.
"Nearly 1/2 of all Pennsylvania hunters now hold an archery stamp. Telling."
We used to have 1,1 million deer hunters, according to the PGC. Now we have 750,00 that hunt deer according to the PGC. What has changed the greatest is the number of "deer" hunters we have lost. Archery license sales have increased about 50,000 from historical highs which happens to be when we had 1.1 million deer hunters. What is telling is the number of "deer" hunters we have lost. The fact that about 45% of our current deer hunters also hunt in archery seasons just shows how archery participation has remained strong, which is a very good thing, while hunters left the sport of hunting. Archery hunters are some of the most dedicated hunters out there, which has helped maintain the numbers. Crossbow inclusion also kept some in the game and added some as well.
Thinking outside of the box........................
What we should be concerned about is not the percentage of our hunters that archery hunt but the number of deer hunters we have lost over the years. Roughly 350,000.
Crossbows require zero archery discipline. Therefore not archery.
Bob, while I agree, this battle for Pennsylvania archery was fought for and the archery hunters lost. 13 years ago.
John, we did indeed lose, which means I/we must tolerate. But there is a difference between tolerate and embrace.
Bob, can I ask you a question? No one is asking you to embrace it, but if someone asks you how do you grow our archery ranks in Pennsylvania and continue the tradition, what would your plan be? Promoting a future that still embraces us passing our love of archery down to another generation, how would we go about that?
So if I'm understand this right the new Administration is going to support new crossbow members over the ones that have been here for years. Whats the new administion plan if say the game commission say it has to shorten the archery season for one reason or another? Well I guess if its is now a crossbow organizations they won't try to help us old, proven dedicated hand held members. I will tell you right now crossbow guys don't join bowhunt organizations. I still have not forgotten I was shut out of the last January meeting. When is the ubp administration going to make a statement on crossbows? My guess is after the next meeting. Pretty sure they don't want to make it before the next meet and then have a bunch of members show up at it. If I sound like I'm a little upset with the direction the ubp is going, I am. Funny how state organizations still fighting crossbows have more members than us, but have half or less resident bowhunters. I'd rather belong to a bowhunting org that as has 1500 hand drawn nembers than 4000 crosbow members. Also the present administration will not poll us members because they will not get the results "they" would want. In my opinion some members of the administration sound like they are being crossbow coached. The only opposition to crossbows if ever needed would be the ubp, if it's now a dual crossbow/handheld organization, that will never happen. Rant over for now. But I'm sure I'll have more to say.
Ed there are more than just you or I upset with that POTENTIAL “Direction”. But at this time it is only a thought. We can nip it in the bud.
Welcoming, or rather, catering to crossbow shooters to grow the membership numbers is very short-sighted especially for the reasons Ed mentioned. Just because the Game Commission recognizes crossbows for use in a particular season doesn't mean they fit in the same category as hand-held bows.
If you change the core principles of an organization, you change the entire organization and snub all those and the work that came before. And, from what I've seen in other cases, when that happens the organization loses it's reason to exist or becomes something totally different.
Dale and Phil. So it's a losing battle that none of the lifetime membership will ever embrace? Then just shutter the organization and move it into the category of remember when?
I don't think that's the only option. But by looking to crossbow members as the source of new membership, in my view, changes the focus of the organization.
I realize how difficult it is for many organizations to keep their membership numbers up or grow them when there is not a pressing issue to get folks involved. When times are good people become apathetic. I just don't see adding crossbow members to a state bowhunting organization as being the answer. Adding them to a state hunting organization makes perfect sense. But a bowhunting organization that focuses on bowhunting issues would mean accepting crossbows as being the same as a hand- held bow and they aren't.
Ed, I don't need an official statement from the current BOD about crossbows to know what they think. They may not have announced a change, but they sure as hell ain't hiding the change. When your state's bowhunter organization offers a crossbow as a prize, or, an auction item, it supports the use of crossbows for able-bodied hunters and has ceased being a bowhunters organization. When your state's bowhunter organization allows able-bodied hunters to use crossbows during their annual doe hunt, it has ceased being a bowhunters organization. When your state's bowhunter organization's legislative director says we have to be a big tent organization, it has ceased being a bowhunter organization.
I resigned as a bowhunter education instructor in protest when the PGC changed the definition of a bow & embraced the crossbow. Many people posting here resigned in protest as well. I was chastised by many pro-crossbow supporters. However, none of them signed up to be instructors. Did you hear that UBP? None. The UBP's actions caused me to resign in protest as a county rep for their actions. It remains to be seen if an able-bodied crossbow hunter will take my place.
Bob, you’ve brought much needed clarity to this whole thread.
And as it stands, right now, I will anxiously await the official response from the UBP President before I make a decision on Whether to join or not. I do not wish to belong to a bow hunters organization that includes able bodied hunters using a crossbow. In short order, vertical bow hunters will be the minority and will be relegated to live by the absurdity of those who use a crossbow. There is very little middle ground as far as I’m concerned. Crossbows should only be used by disabled hunters in bow season, and the 2week long gun season. I certainly would like to join and belong, and contribute anyway I possibly could. Till then, I’ll wait for their response. Like Ed stated above, “ I’d rather stand with the 1500 v 4000.”
Well, Jim, better hurry up and make up your mind as you can clearly see by the responses none of these fellers are getting any younger.
I am kidding, kidding man.
BC173, don't base your decision on my opinion only. The organization has done some amazing things in the past. I hope it can do them in the future.
Read page 2, 5th paragraph down, of the article X-Master posted. It looks like an official "Mission Statement" was made and answers some of our questions. Interpret it for yourselves.
Where can we see the UBP Mission Statement? I don’t understand why it would be incumbent upon a state bowhunting organization to “grow the hunting community as a whole”. That sounds more like part of the mission statement of a state hunting organization. Yes, the UBP could work where possible with the state organization to accomplish that but the main goal of a bowhunting organization should be to focus on work for bowhunters.
Phil, Click the link & scroll down to OUR MISSION.
" The United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the Preservation, Promotion, and Protection of bowhunting opportunities in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. We support game management based on sound biological principles and a "resource first" philosophy."
What I don't see in OUR MISSION is; "A big part of the United Bowhunters mission is growing the hunting community as a whole, not just the archery component."
Can Anyone tell me when this was added to the UBP Web site?
https://www.ubofpa.org/crossbow-policy
Check out the prizes.
https://rafflecreator.com/pages/55807/2022-ubp-membership-drive
I see that Bob, I just want to know when it was added to the web site. Like was it added after the January 2022 meeting???
I would of just gave this (What's the Limit) thread a bump up to the top but It's locked. I put it here so a few folks from another organization can find it faster.
https://forums.bowsite.com/tf/regional/thread.cfm?threadid=255909&messages=196&state=PA
Thanks for the links and thanks again to all the folks that fought the fight.
I'll leave the "One Big Tent" philosophy to the UBP and such organizations and remain independent. The UBP doesn't represent my view of bow hunting.
I've been a member of UBP since 86 or 87, before that a member of PA bowhunters society. I see no benefit whatsoever of attracting crossbow hunters to join the UBP. My personal opinion, if you didn't get into bowhunting with a hand drawn, hand held bow, you aren't a bow hunter. If you cut your teeth on a vertical bow, and had to move on to a crossbow do to health or age, at least you understand the concept of what it takes to be an ethical bowhunter.
The great majority of crossbow users are former vertical archery hunters.
Not so sure about the majority of former vertical bowhunters, but from my experience they were the one's that picked their bow up the week before the season opened.
Good thing they are using a crossbow then, for the deer's sake.
DPMS, Woody, or they just plain suck at vertical archery and decided that they were just to lazy to become a great bow hunter...?
That could be as well? The bottom line is everybody has their reasons for doing what they do.
For those that support xbows, please tell me why you think the UBP should support them? Do you think the UBP should support xbows even if, the membership is polled and that poll shows that the membership does not want to support them?
Ed, you and I have discussed this in great detail. I would like to see that poll before commenting.
